Why do Calvinists debate?

[Dave_Regenerated]

I think that for any example of people Seeking the God of the Bible and finding him, we're to Theologically Presume that Grace has already appeared to make a Real difference in our lives. ~ we're actually Debating Theology...

I've found things to be simple. Grace is always first. It's the things we ponder, that opens the door to Heresies. But when we apply Fundamentals to things we ponder (IE Irresistible Grace is Prevenient), it's as easy as peasy..

God's calling and wooing is a slightly different subject to my questions about people thinking they are choosing God because God somehow offers them salvation and they then go ahead and accept it, not to mention a person saying a prayer and then being saved. We can grant God is calling people as a given. The question is what are we to make of these people that claim they made some choice in the matter of their own salvation and it appears as though their testimony is true based on the fact that they are actually saved? Does God work with different people in different ways?

 

[ReverendRV]

God's calling and wooing is a slightly different subject to my questions about people thinking they are choosing God because God somehow offers them salvation and they then go ahead and accept it, not to mention a person saying a prayer and then being saved. We can grant God is calling people as a given. The question is what are we to make of these people that claim they made some choice in the matter of their own salvation and it appears as though their testimony is true based on the fact that they are actually saved? Does God work with different people in different ways?

I think we're to make of it that Irresistible Grace has already appeared to make a Real difference in their lives; but they don't know it. I'm a Fundamentalist, so I can't help but think this, because the Fundamental grounds me. Since I'm Grounded, I often repeat my answer over and over again...

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I think we're to make of it that Irresistible Grace has already appeared to make a Real difference in their lives; but they don't know it. I'm a Fundamentalist, so I can't help but think this, because the Fundamental grounds me. Since I'm Grounded, I often repeat my answer over and over again...

Then why would God respond to their "choice" or prayer the exact moment they claim to have done that?

 

[David1701]

And what of those that pray to God something like, "If you are real, show me the truth," and then are born again? I have read many testimonies like that, and I don't know what to make of it.

That can happen too, after all, God works in the lives of his elect before they're born again, as well as afterwards.

 

[Mr GLee]

God's calling and wooing is a slightly different subject to my questions about people thinking they are choosing God because God somehow offers them salvation and they then go ahead and accept it, not to mention a person saying a prayer and then being saved. We can grant God is calling people as a given. The question is what are we to make of these people that claim they made some choice in the matter of their own salvation and it appears as though their testimony is true based on the fact that they are actually saved? Does God work with different people in different ways?

I would think much of it comes under the heading of "sign gifts" ( Charismatic) self edifying. I did it (believe in a god) it proves it . like I am my own best witness.

Called strange fire (Aaron's sons )

Glory is attributed to our unseen eternal God . False selfish pride attributed the god of this world.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[ReverendRV]

Then why would God respond to their "choice" or prayer the exact moment they claim to have done that?

Because their Choice Justifies them, though it doesn't Elect them. God responding to someone is established in Prayer; but Prayer is not why God Elects. Calvinists are supposed to be Sola Fidests; Martin Luther fought for Justification through Faith Alone. As Calvinists, we're supposed to stay on the See-Saw of Grace and Faith. Every time we kick up the See-Saw at Grace, it can't stay that way; Faith Kicks up to keep the See-Saw rocking. Whether we think Faith is a Gift or not, it kicks the See-Saw up, or your not Saved through Faith; and are Hyper...

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Because their Choice Justifies them, though it doesn't Elect them. God responding to someone is established in Prayer; but Prayer is not why God Elects. Calvinists are supposed to be Sola Fidests; Martin Luther fought for Justification through Faith Alone. As Calvinists, we're supposed to stay on the See-Saw of Grace and Faith. Every time we kick up the See-Saw at Grace, it can't stay that way; Faith Kicks up to keep the See-Saw rocking. Whether we think Faith is a Gift or not, it kicks the See-Saw up, or your not Saved through Faith; and are Hyper...

Choice justifies? That's certainly not what happened to me...

 

[ReverendRV]

Choice justifies? That's certainly not what happened to me...

Though you don't know it, It happened to you; because Faith is Entrusting yourself to Sola Christus...

You've done that, right?

 

[Arial]

@Mercy_Shown

Since what you consider the plastic petal of Reformed theology of the OP to be Irresistible grace, I will post the Theological Note on Effectual Grace from the Reformation Study Bible, and hope it is not infringing on copyright. I do this because you seem unable to understand what I have said about it, even though it agrees with this note. Those with a higher skill and vocation of being clear and precise than I possess, or at least often ignore, maybe it will help. Disagreeing with it is not a problem, but if you do so I would expect full support given to the objections from the whole counsel of God on the subject. That of course does not mean every bit of it, too exhaustive, but at least a few scriptures on the same subject, and exegesis of those scriptures.

Quoted from the Reformation Study Bible pg 2245

Effectual Calling

"When God called the world into being, the universe did not hesitate to comply with the command. God's desired effect in creation came to pass. Likewise when Jesus called the dead Lazarus from the grave, Lazarus responded with life.

There is also an effectual call of God in the life of the believer. It is a call that brings about the desired effect. Effectual calling is related to the power of God in regenerating the sinner from spiritual death. It is sometimes referred to as irresistible grace.

Effectual calling refers to a call of God that by His sovereign power and authority that brings about His designed and ordained effect or result. When Paul teaches that those whom He predestined He calls, and those whom He calls, He justifies, the call to which he is referring is the effectual call of God.

The effectual call of God is an inward call. It is the secret work of quickening or regeneration accomplished in the souls of the elect by the immediate supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit. It effects or works the inward change of the disposition, inclination, and desire of the soul. Before the inward effectual call of God is received, no person is inclined to come to Him. Everyone who is effecutally call is now disposed to God and responds in faith. We see then that faith itself is a gift from God, having been given in the effectual call of the Holy Spirit.

The preaching of the gospel represents the outward call of God. This call is heard audibly by both the elect and non-elect. Human beings have the ability to resist and and refuse the outward call. He will not respond to the outward call in faith unless the outward call is accompanied by the effectual inward call of the Holy Spirit. Effectual calling is irresistible in the sense that God sovereignly brings about the desired results. The sovereign work of grace is resistible in the sense that we can and do resist it in our fallen nature, but irresistible in the sense that God's grace prevails over our natural resistance to it.

Effectual calling refers to the creative power of God by which we are brought to spiritual life. The apostle Paul writes,

'And you He made alive who were dead in tespasses and isin in which you once walked according the the course of this world, according to the prince of he power of the air, the spirit who is now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh, and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).' (Eph 2:1-5)

We who were once children of wrath and were spiritually dead have become the 'called out ones' by virtue of the power and efficacy of the inward call of God. In His grace, the Holy Spirit gives us eyes to see what we would not see and ears to hear what we would not hear."

 

[Arial]

Then why would God respond to their "choice" or prayer the exact moment they claim to have done that?

People say the prayer because they are told almost exclusively that that is how they become saved. It doesn't mean that is how they are saved. If a person is of the elect and they cry out to God, "If you are real show me you are real." And they are saved in that instant---which really no one but themselves and God know that---but that is what it looks like, it is because they were regenerated.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Though you don't know it, It happened to you; because Faith is Entrusting yourself to Sola Christus...

You've done that, right?

Nope. I didn't do anything at all. I simply read the Bible and believed it when I saw the prophecies were miraculous. I didn't repent, I didn't trust in Christ alone, I didn't in fact do anything at all except read the Bible. And as I was reading I was miraculously saved in a most spectacular fashion. I was raised Christian (Catholic actually, which I abandoned at the age of 12), so I always "believed" in Jesus. Another conundrum.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

People say the prayer because they are told almost exclusively that that is how they become saved. It doesn't mean that is how they are saved. If a person is of the elect and they cry out to God, "If you are real show me you are real." And they are saved in that instant---which really no one but themselves and God know that---but that is what it looks like, it is because they were regenerated.

That's a weird way to reverse the order of events then. They are regenerated and they pray to God and are saved. HMMMMM. I don't think so!

 

[ReverendRV]

People say the prayer because they are told almost exclusively that that is how they become saved. It doesn't mean that is how they are saved. If a person is of the elect and they cry out to God, "If you are real show me you are real." And they are saved in that instant---which really no one but themselves and God know that---but that is what it looks like, it is because they were regenerated.

To satisfy people who are against Alter Calls, and those who aren't; I'd happily quote this at the end of my Sermons as a Doxology...

“Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and you will delight in the richest of fare.
Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David."

 

[ReverendRV]

Nope. I didn't do anything at all. I simply read the Bible and believed it when I saw the prophecies were miraculous. I didn't repent, I didn't trust in Christ alone, I didn't in fact do anything at all except read the Bible. And as I was reading I was miraculously saved in a most spectacular fashion. I was raised Christian (Catholic actually, which I abandoned at the age of 12), so I always "believed" in Jesus. Another conundrum.

No problem Dave...

 

[Mercy_Shown]

@Mercy_Shown

Since what you consider the plastic petal of Reformed theology of the OP to be Irresistible grace, I will post the Theological Note on Effectual Grace from the Reformation Study Bible, and hope it is not infringing on copyright. I do this because you seem unable to understand what I have said about it, even though it agrees with this note. Those with a higher skill and vocation of being clear and precise than I possess, or at least often ignore, maybe it will help. Disagreeing with it is not a problem, but if you do so I would expect full support given to the objections from the whole counsel of God on the subject. That of course does not mean every bit of it, too exhaustive, but at least a few scriptures on the same subject, and exegesis of those scriptures.

Quoted from the Reformation Study Bible pg 2245

Effectual Calling

"When God called the world into being, the universe did not hesitate to comply with the command. God's desired effect in creation came to pass. Likewise when Jesus called the dead Lazarus from the grave, Lazarus responded with life.

There is also an effectual call of God in the life of the believer. It is a call that brings about the desired effect. Effectual calling is related to the power of God in regenerating the sinner from spiritual death. It is sometimes referred to as irresistible grace.

Perhaps His desired effect is to bring them to life to give them a choice.

Effectual calling refers to a call of God that by His sovereign power and authority that brings about His designed and ordained effect or result. When Paul teaches that those whom He predestined He calls, and those whom He calls, He justifies, the call to which he is referring is the effectual call of God.

When Jesus said, "Many are called but few are chosen" what kind of Grace was that referring to?

The effectual call of God is an inward call. It is the secret work of quickening or regeneration accomplished in the souls of the elect by the immediate supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit. It effects or works the inward change of the disposition, inclination, and desire of the soul. Before the inward effectual call of God is received, no person is inclined to come to Him. Everyone who is effecutally call is now disposed to God and responds in faith. We see then that faith itself is a gift from God, having been given in the effectual call of the Holy Spirit.

Since God would that all men be saved, then the effectual call of God must go to all men.

The preaching of the gospel represents the outward call of God. This call is heard audibly by both the elect and non-elect. Human beings have the ability to resist and and refuse the outward call. He will not respond to the outward call in faith unless the outward call is accompanied by the effectual inward call of the Holy Spirit. Effectual calling is irresistible in the sense that God sovereignly brings about the desired results. The sovereign work of grace is resistible in the sense that we can and do resist it in our fallen nature, but irresistible in the sense that God's grace prevails over our natural resistance to it.

So the outward call is for the show and the inward call is for the dough? The inward call is manipulation by changing the person without their consent.

Effectual calling refers to the creative power of God by which we are brought to spiritual life. The apostle Paul writes,

'And you He made alive who were dead in tespasses and isin in which you once walked according the the course of this world, according to the prince of he power of the air, the spirit who is now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh, and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).' (Eph 2:1-5)

We who were once children of wrath and were spiritually dead have become the 'called out ones' by virtue of the power and efficacy of the inward call of God. In His grace, the Holy Spirit gives us eyes to see what we would not see and ears to hear what we would not hear."

It seems to me that the effectual call is effectual because it changes those who will receive it, but if you choose to resist it, it is no longer effectual. I do not see the bible splitting God's calling into categories. That seems more like something added on later by theologians.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

So the outward call is for the show and the inward call is for the dough? The inward call is manipulation by changing the person without their consent.

Are you saying that when you have an experience of God come to you that He is manipulating you against your consent?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Then the information decides whether true or false. And not the mailman

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Apostles Gods; mail men.

Hearing the gospel, having been been empowered to believe .,God sent it . Yoked with him our daily burdens can be lighter

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Both to do (hear) and give us ears to hear his understanding of faith

Yes, God works in us if we do not resist him. The reality of the free ticket to heaven is moot if I do not believe it is real. We must choose to believe. That God would place individuals in hell is a hard thing to think about let alone believe that God placed them there by His own will rather than bless them with effectual Grace.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Are you saying that when you have an experience of God come to you that He is manipulating you against your consent?

No, I am saying that if God changes my thinking and will without me freely submitting to Him, then it is manipulation. God gave me all the evidence needed to believe in and adhere to Him. He showed me darkness and light. I did not resist.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

No, I am saying that if God changes my thinking and will without me freely submitting to Him, then it is manipulation. God gave me all the evidence needed to believe in and adhere to Him. He showed me darkness and light. I did not resist.

Does Calvinism claim that God changes a person's thinking and their will? I have read much Calvinistic literature and never see that before. Where are you getting this idea from? Leighton Flowers and Youtube comments?

 

[Arial]

Perhaps His desired effect is to bring them to life to give them a choice.

If you could/would support that possibility from the scriptures it might mean something. One has to start with who God is by His self revelation and keep the teaching in agreement with that, if one is to suppose He might do something. I am puzzled how God being the One who is life and gives life---in Him we live and move and have our being--- can bring someone to life and they still choose to remain dead. And why would His intention (seeing as how He made all that exists, sustains it faithfully, governs it, and has a purpose which He always accomplishes) would decide to give everyone a chance to choose Him. Other than that in our frailty and enmity, and bound as we are in sin, think it would only be fair for Him to do so. Which of course would be telling God how He should be, rather than accepting Him as He is.

When Jesus said, "Many are called but few are chosen" what kind of Grace was that referring to?

If you read closely and carefully the entire discourse that preceded that statement you will see. If the statement itself is not clear enough. Many are called but few are chosen. The chosen had a different kind of call than the many. So it is effectual grace. An inward call. Do you not think God is allowed to do this and that He can do this?

Since God would that all men be saved, then the effectual call of God must go to all men.

Think about what you said here. Effectual has a meaning, a definition. If an effectual call, one that had the desired effect went out to all men, all men would be saved. Your are misinterpreting the passage you refer to, and creating a contradiction in any number of places, in the Bible,as well as who God is, in doing so. Rather than just "proof texting" I will be waiting for your exegesis of that scripture.

So the outward call is for the show and the inward call is for the dough?

Cute humanistic quips doesn't address the issue.

The inward call is manipulation by changing the person without their consent.

No. As I have said a dozen times. Odd that anyone would see it that way though. Who is being worshiped and bowed down to in that scenario? It is more like shaking a fist at God as God Himself says.

It seems to me that the effectual call is effectual because it changes those who will receive it, but if you choose to resist it, it is no longer effectual.

Effectual has a definition. And unless a man is changed He will never come to Christ. And a man cannot change Himself from what He is. A sinner. If it was no longer effectual because it is resisted, it never was effectual at all. That is like saying someone is raised from the dead and they resist that so they are no longer raised from the dead. Or like saying one can lose eternal life. If it can be lost, it never was eternal.

Who is God? That is my question to you.