Why do Calvinists debate?

[Arial]

The teaching is simple to boil down. Can someone resist and reject God's irresistible or effectual Grace? According to everything I have read on reformed theology, the answer is no. So no matter how it is dressed up, it still is forced upon people. If I had the power to change people's wills and went around doing so, would that not be manipulation?

That isn't the teaching, that is the argument against it. It is called irresistible grace in the TULIP for a reason. And that reason is that Scripture tells us that we are saved by grace. And grace is not a power to be resisted or accepted it is God giving to those something they absolutely do not deserve and in no way are able to deserve it. They can not do one single thing to to earn or deserve it. And in the I of TULIP it is addressing that very grace that saves. Not all grace. The grace that brings salvation.

If it is only offered, or made available to all, it is no longer grace, but requires something of the recipient. Your issue is not really with grace, it is with the insistence that if God does not let us make our own decision in the matter, then He is manipulative. Therefore you extend that into Him making us love Him, having robots who love Him because they have to when both of those things are oxymorons. You simply will not accept His sovereignty over you and so you milign the idea instead. That is what it boils down to. There are no scriptures that ever add the idea or concept of us choosing to any scriptures that speak of believing, repentance etc. None. No scripture that even suggests that there is such a thing as common grace that makes salvation possible to all. Common grace feeds and governs and sustains a creation and a creature that hates Him. Common grace does not change the hearts of all without exception Or give understanding of spiritual things to all without exception. If it did Paul would not still be talking about the natural man not understanding spiritual things.

And there is no comparison, no legitimate analogy, between you changing people's wills through manipulation, and from pure grace God giving a people to Christ. If those who insist they choose Christ all on their own, relying only on the smidgeon of grace God gives Him, still also insist that they do not believe in works salvation, that choosing isn't something they contributed. the bulk of posts in this thread should remove that fallacy.

 

[Arial]

If God manipulates hard-hearted people who hate him and turns them into people who love Him without their choice involved in it. Then the whole world should be saved.

POTTER. CLAY. You keep asking the same question coming from the same earthly, humanistic view that Paul rhetorically asked, anticipating the natural bent of fallen man, and then answered. Romans 9:6-24. And no matter how many times are told these things or how many time you read the answer from the very mouth of God in these passages of Paul, you still keep asking the same two questions,makeing the same ungrateful claims, and refuse to accept the answer. Why is that?



6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

I perceive that there was not any sincerity of the OP to listen and learn. There never is in these debates/discussions/arguments on the part of those who reject Reformed theology. I am weary of hoping for anything different. No hard feelings. Glad you have joined the forum.

 

[Arial]

Through Jesus Christ God became sin for us that we might in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Do you think that means God actually became sin? Or do you think that expression means Jesus bore our sins as though they were His own, taking the punishment for our sin so we would not have to? Because if Jesus actually became sin He never would have come out of that tomb alive and He would not be in heaven with the Father, He would still be in hell. And if we are actually the righteousness of God, we would not still sin. His righteousness is credited to us as though it was ours as to being reconciled to God. Our sins were counted as though they were His, but they were not actually His in any way.

I think you have misunderstood what God means when He says He changes not. He was not speaking of his physical manifestation, for he has been a burning bush, a man, a fiery tornado a cooling cloud. etc. When God says that He changes not He is speaking of his thoughts and purposes.

That is not at all what I meant. You completely changed who He is when you said He is no longer other than us.

When God says that He changes not He is speaking of his thoughts and purposes.

He is speaking of who He is. I AM THAT I AM. He was saying He is always perfectly holy and righteous in all His ways. He does not change His mind. He does not lie. He always does what He says He will do.

Are you saying that if one upon whom God wills His irresistible Grace were to not hear the gospel, He would be lost?

That has not the slightest possibility of happening as He draws them to Jesus. They will hear the gospel. God finishes what He starts. And God does not will irresistible grace on anyone. He gives grace and those to whom He bestows it are given faith that believes.

That is not what the bible says. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20

True. But you have previously depicted this appealing as though God were impotently begging us to be reconciled to Him, and that is not that the case. Preaching the gospel is an appeal to to be reconciled to God because the Gospel is the only means of being reconciled.

 

[Arial]

No, He wouldn't. He would bring them to a point of understanding the question. But their will would not be altered unless they submitted to Him. It is by beholding we become changed, it is not by fiat.

Where does the Bible say that. A will isn't altered by submitting to Him. He won't submit unless something changes in him that changes his will. It is by the power and pure grace of God that we behold Him.

 

[Arial]

But who changed their will? That is what is never made clear. Did God change their will without their consent?

God changed their heart not their will. I believe I have said that three maybe four times. I can do nothing about the fact that that is not clear to you. Did He ask their permission? When has He ever asked for permission from the creature to do anything? And why should He. Personally, I am grateful beyond words that He changed my heart. I could never ever have even known it needed changed had He not done so.

We aren't getting any farther than anyone ever got arguing with Shroom over the trinity or Calvinism. And I have had enough.

 

[prism]

We aren't getting any farther than anyone ever got arguing with Shroom over the trinity or Calvinism

Shroom? OK, I give up. Is that some sort of Silly Sigh-bin mushroom?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Analogies to not arrive at meanings, though sometimes they help us see the meaning. In this case you have to ignore the rest of what I said. The fact that a person believes is evidence that he has been born again. Your analogy has the presupposition that God saving a person is something offered, not given.

You cannot give it if someone will not take it. We accept the gift of salvation by believing it. If we do not believe we perish. There is the biggest difference between the demand and the saints.

God changed their heart not their will. I believe I have said that three maybe four times. I can do nothing about the fact that that is not clear to you. Did He ask their permission? When has He ever asked for permission from the creature to do anything? And why should He. Personally, I am grateful beyond words that He changed my heart. I could never ever have even known it needed changed had He not done so.

We aren't getting any farther than anyone ever got arguing with Shroom over the trinity or Calvinism. And I have had enough.

So they have a changed heart but the same old will?

Hey, thanks for the interchange. I know that we can discuss things like this in the safety of Christ's grace which is how we will be saved.

 

[Ladodgers6]

But did He not do so because it could influence the decisions some would make as to whether to choose to submit or resist? If Christ made His grace irresistible then false teachings would not be an issue that needed to be addressed.

God commands us to preach the Gospel, correct? For the record I am not a Hyper-Calvinist. I am a Classical Calvinist. Christ also commands us to love God and our neighbor. We are not robots, but his disciples. But I 100% agree that God does a have a Plan of Redemption to save his people from their sins. This Covenant will be fulfilled and applied to those whom Christ purchased with his blood.

As children of Adam we always resist God, because we are swore enemies. We are alienated from God, and have hostility toward him because of our carnal minds.​

Protect it from what? Defend it from what? With God Irresistible is irresistible. How can even these false ideologies and synergistic theologies change the course of irresistible Grace?

This is Hyper-Calvinistic, should we not preach the Gospel?

 

[Arial]

You cannot give it if someone will not take it. We accept the gift of salvation by believing it. If we do not believe we perish. There is the biggest difference between the demand and the saints.

So they have a changed heart but the same old will?

Hey, thanks for the interchange. I know that we can discuss things like this in the safety of Christ's grace which is how we will be saved.

On the same old will. And then I will cease and desist. I know you know that the human will is not a free standing entity, but sometimes we say things as though it were. A will does not operate in a vacuum. We choose to do things, and choose things according to what we most desire for whatever reason(s). Our will will follow our heart.

 

[Arial]

Shroom? OK, I give up. Is that some sort of Silly Sigh-bin mushroom?

Sorry. Inside joke I guess. He is someone we encountered on another forum. I have no idea why he called himself Shroom but you may be onto something with the mushroom.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Sorry. Inside joke I guess. He is someone we encountered on another forum. I have no idea why he called himself Shroom but you may be onto something with the mushroom.

Because he was into motorcycles and always wore a half helmet while riding, so his buddies nicknamed him Shroom because they thought he looked like a mushroom.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

What is to be made of those people that say they chose God after having resisted Him? Certainly we know that it is possible to resist the Holy Spirit since that is in scripture. But the idea that God offers salvation to people and they accept it? Does that actually happen to people? I can't say that that is what happened to me. I never resisted God, my faith was quickened by God and shortly thereafter I was saved or born again, all God's doing. I was granted repentance, that wasn't a work I did in myself.

I'm trying to see what this "I accepted God's gift" is all about. People say that is what happened with them. Are they simply just mistaken because they cannot accept the fact that hell exists and God is the potter?

 

[David1701]

Love that whole post, by the way, but this is a most-important point, I want to comment on. It is not that he is morally perfect, as though he too must live up to some standard. He is altogether consumingly pure. It is not perfection of virtue, but the very definition of virtue.

As some old writer said, something like, "It is not because God is good that he does good things. Rather, the things that God does are good because HE does them." Or maybe it went like, "It is not because they are good that God does good things. Instead, Good is what it is, because God is good."

Yes: God is the goodness by which all else is to be assessed.

 

[David1701]

What is to be made of those people that say they chose God after having resisted Him? Certainly we know that it is possible to resist the Holy Spirit since that is in scripture. But the idea that God offers salvation to people and they accept it? Does that actually happen to people? I can't say that that is what happened to me. I never resisted God, my faith was quickened by God and shortly thereafter I was saved or born again, all God's doing. I was granted repentance, that wasn't a work I did in myself.

I'm trying to see what this "I accepted God's gift" is all about. People say that is what happened with them. Are they simply just mistaken because they cannot accept the fact that hell exists and God is the potter?

I think that there are two kinds of Christians who say things like, "I accepted Christ." (or similar) and that that's why God saved them.

The first kind are those whom God has saved by his grace, having made them born again, giving them repentance and faith in Christ; but, who have been taught that salvation is because of man's will/decision, so they make their testimony sound that way.

The second kind are those who have mental assent to the gospel, but who are not born again. They made some decision to "accept Christ" but do not have the life of God in them. This commonly happens from aberrant evangelism or personal witnessing.

 

[Mr GLee]

You cannot give it if someone will not take it. We accept the gift of salvation by believing it. If we do not believe we perish. There is the biggest difference between the demand and the saints.

So they have a changed heart but the same old will?

Hey, thanks for the interchange. I know that we can discuss things like this in the safety of Christ's grace which is how we will be saved.

Same difference. Let there be as law and it was good testimony of Christ power of faith the labor of His love

It's not something you can see when he does give . Just think of a mailbox with a one ticket to heaven no strings attached .

 

[ReverendRV]

Because he was into motorcycles and always wore a half helmet while riding, so his buddies nicknamed him Shroom because they thought he looked like a mushroom.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/is-anyone-interested-in-having-a-moderated-debate.1356/post-53951

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Same difference. Let there be as law and it was good testimony of Christ power of faith the labor of His love

It's not something you can see when he does give . Just think of a mailbox with a one ticket to heaven no strings attached .

I open the mailbox and there it is hmmmm... Is this real or a scam? Do I believe it or do I not? I must make a choice here. If I do not believe it is real, I will throw it out as junk mail, but if I believe it is real, I will accept it.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I think that there are two kinds of Christians who say things like, "I accepted Christ." (or similar) and that that's why God saved them.

The first kind are those whom God has saved by his grace, having made them born again, giving them repentance and faith in Christ; but, who have been taught that salvation is because of man's will/decision, so they make their testimony sound that way.

The second kind are those who have mental assent to the gospel, but who are not born again. They made some decision to "accept Christ" but do not have the life of God in them. This commonly happens from aberrant evangelism or personal witnessing.

And what of those that pray to God something like, "If you are real, show me the truth," and then are born again? I have read many testimonies like that, and I don't know what to make of it.

 

[ReverendRV]

And what of those that pray to God something like, "If you are real, show me the truth," and then are born again? I have read many testimonies like that, and I don't know what to make of it.

I think that for any example of people Seeking the God of the Bible and finding him, we're to Theologically Presume that Grace has already appeared to make a Real difference in our lives. ~ we're actually Debating Theology...

I've found things to be simple. Grace is always first. It's the things we ponder, that opens the door to Heresies. But when we apply Fundamentals to things we ponder (IE Irresistible Grace is Prevenient), it's as easy as peasy..

 

[Mr GLee]

I open the mailbox and there it is hmmmm... Is this real or a scam? Do I believe it or do I not? I must make a choice here. If I do not believe it is real, I will throw it out as junk mail, but if I believe it is real, I will accept it.

Then the information decides whether true or false. And not the mailman

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Apostles Gods; mail men.

Hearing the gospel, having been been empowered to believe .,God sent it . Yoked with him our daily burdens can be lighter

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Both to do (hear) and give us ears to hear his understanding of faith