Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[Carbon]

God does not depend upon the believer! God works all things together for good to those who love him (i.e. everyone who has been born of God), this includes correction and discipline for sin.

Amen

 

[Arial]

Until you can comprehend what I have been saying you are going to keep assuming I am changing the subject.

I know exactly what you are saying. That is how I know you changed the subject. You are using one thing to talk about something altogether different. and two things that do not apply to each other, when you could just talk about one thing at a time and in different places where it is appropriate. You could start an entire thread dedicated to what it means to grow in maturity in the Lord.

You could start another on "When Does God Withhold What We See As Good." Or "What is the good spoken of in Romans 8. And still another on "Why Did God Plan For the Fall of Man" though I would suggest you rename it or else prove in the OP itself that He did plan for the fall of man as that, evidently from the title, what you believe to be true.

 

[Arial]

What has been presented is the same thing, yet what you see and what I see are not the same. What I see is the Lord who cannot work the good for those who run off with their "little bit of knowledge" thinking they have it "altogether", all the while He stands and the door and knocks. It is not a matter of God withholding His love, but a refusal of the believer to be corrected and grow up. For these types, God cannot work all things for the good. These types are going to suffer a lot of bad because of their arrogant and self righteous decisions.

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose.

God working fo the good has nothing to do with what the person does or doesn't do. This passage is not about God giving things to people. It is about God working for our good. Even if we get sick unto death He works it for good. He takes us Home.

 

[GeneZ]

God does not depend upon the believer! God works all things together for good to those who love him (i.e. everyone who has been born of God), this includes correction and discipline for sin.

God's is omniscient.

His plan did depend upon first knowing our volition in order to devise His plan.

So, in effect?

It really did depend upon the volition of believers to give God what He needed to make all things
work together for the good.. for those whom He knew would love Him.

The determining factor in making all things work together for the good?
It was dependent upon God knowing how we would choose!

So? In that sense? Ultimately,God's plan for Romans 8:28? Was dependent upon us.

For He needed to be able to know before hand how we would freely choose things in order to have His plan!

Give God stones? He will construct one kind of house structure.

Give God wood? He will construct another kind of house structure!

Likewise, God depended upon what kind of building materials we are in our volition to work His plan for us with!

 

[GeneZ]

I know exactly what you are saying. That is how I know you changed the subject. You are using one thing to talk about something altogether different. and two things that do not apply to each other, when you could just talk about one thing at a time and in different places where it is appropriate. You could start an entire thread dedicated to what it means to grow in maturity in the Lord.

You could start another on "When Does God Withhold What We See As Good." Or "What is the good spoken of in Romans 8. And still another on "Why Did God Plan For the Fall of Man" though I would suggest you rename it or else prove in the OP itself that He did plan for the fall of man as that, evidently from the title, what you believe to be true.

What I said perfectly interrelated with one another.
You keep compartmentalizing what I said for some reason.


I know for a fact.. there are those who instantly grasp where I went with a thought.
And, some just wince and can not follow.

Your mind and my mind work differently.

And it’s not just that those brain areas work well together in the creative brain,
but they also evidence a “flexibility of thought” that stands in contrast to the rigidity
common to most brains when faced with creative challenges.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...-true-the-creative-brain-is-wired-differently

Problem is.. I can not think in a way that would seem to suit your way of digesting thought.
Its not a sin. God designed us that way for a reason.

Its why certain false doctrine have a natural appeal to some, but not another.
It requires knowing how to0 remain being Spirit filled and always growing in learning more and more Bible doctrine, in contrast to hunkering down and defending a few dogma/doctrines that suit one's natural way of reasoning.

God is the ultimate creative mind.
God uses creative thinking with the application of the Word of God to bust up rigid structures.

God's Spirit literally demolishes them. And, that upsets those who found a sense of security with their false doctrine.

The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. ​

On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.
2 Corinthians 10:4​

That is how the Spirit is towards false teachings.
I am simply being matter of fact about it.

grace and truth.....

 

[Arial]

God's is omniscient.

His plan did depend upon first knowing our volition in order to devise His plan.

So, in effect?

It really did depend upon the volition of believers to give God what He needed to make all things
work together for the good.. for those whom He knew would love Him.

The determining factor in making all things work together for the good?
It was dependent upon God knowing how we would choose!

So? In that sense? Ultimately,God's plan for Romans 8:28? Was dependent upon us.

For He needed to be able to know before hand how we would freely choose things in order to have His plan!

Give God stones? He will construct one kind of house structure.

Give God wood? He will construct another kind of house structure!

Likewise, God depended upon what kind of building materials we are in our volition to work His plan for us with!

Wow. See what a false starting premise leads to? Free will in man choosing Christ has wrecked sound doctrine. It wrecked a great deal of our hope and made us entirely dependant on trusting in ourselves instead of sitting before God with our mouths open like a baby bird, to receive from Him and rely on Him.In this post it has made God out to be dependant upon us. Dear Lord come to our aid and help us for we have sinned and gone astray!!

 

[Arial]

What I said perfectly interrelated with one another.
You keep compartmentalizing what I said for some reason.


I know for a fact.. there are those who instantly grasp where I went with a thought.
And, some just wince and can not follow.

Your mind and my mind work differently.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...-true-the-creative-brain-is-wired-differently

Hey professor, I understood where you went. And it was off the subject at hand and did not apply to it. Only unsound doctrine would apply it that way.

 

[GeneZ]

Wow. See what a false starting premise leads to? Free will in man choosing Christ has wrecked sound doctrine. It wrecked a great deal of our hope and made us entirely dependant on trusting in ourselves instead of sitting before God with our mouths open like a baby bird, to receive from Him and rely on Him.In this post it has made God out to be dependant upon us. Dear Lord come to our aid and help us for we have sinned and gone astray!!

You keep failing to understand that God's POWER of grace "frees" up man's will.

You are failing to see how the depravity we suffer from is from the fallen nature in the flesh.
The depraved flesh inherited from Adam will control our soul from birth without grace making that soul free of the sin nature's effects!

Your idea of total depravity? It leaves God with NOTHING to save!

What happens?

God saves just "a little" of our depravity???? It can not be "total."

Its time to make sense for once. Its not TOTAL depravity.
Its irresistible depravity of the flesh, as long as God's Grace power is not imparted to our soul!

There has to come a time when believers understand that issue.

Otherwise, TULIP advocates end up stuck in the same kind of religious rigidity as Catholics do with their own dogma.
They can't see it. And, will not get free of it until they can humble themselves to acknowledge what the Word of God is actually stating.

[edited. inappropriate topic for this thread.]

I pray there is coming a day when the Church will have a new and better Reformation.
One of breaking down the self imposed tyranny that having an affinity for a false teaching develops into, for the vulnerable believer.

The next reformation will be hopefully a big step closer to better understanding the mind of Christ.

grace and peace ............

 

[GeneZ]

Hey professor, I understood where you went. And it was off the subject at hand and did not apply to it. Only unsound doctrine would apply it that way.

See me after class..

 

[Arial]

You keep failing to understand that God's POWER of grace "frees" up man's will.

Can you show me where this is so from the authority of the scriptures verifying scripture?

You are failing to see how the depravity we suffer from is from the fallen nature in the flesh.

Do I? Where did you get that idea from? How do you know so much about me?

The depraved flesh inherited from Adam will control our soul from birth without grace making that soul free of the sin nature's effects!

Are you free from the sin natures effects? And what do you mean by control our soul? Is this something you surmise by adding psychology to it or is it something the Bible tells us?

Your idea of total depravity? It leaves God with NOTHING to save!

Pretty strong statement. How so? And what is my idea of total depravity?

God saves just "a little" of our depravity???? It can not be "total."

Well, that leaves me scratching my head. I scarcely can determine what question to ask to help make sense of that post. Let's see. Where does "just a little of our depravity" come from the doctrine of total depravity. Why can't it be total. What do you think that doctrine states?

Its time to make sense for once.

I agree, you should.

Its irresistible depravity of the flesh, as long as God's Grace power is not imparted to our soul!

Define irresistible depravity.

There has to come a time when believers understand that issue.

I shall be waiting for you to make that issue (first define the issue) clear. And set us all straight, Hopefully you will do so in a cogent manner and with scriptural support from start to finish.

Otherwise, TULIP advocates end up stuck in the same kind of religious rigidity as Catholics do with their own dogma.
They can't see it. And, will not get free of it until they can humble themselves to acknowledge what the Word of God is actually stating.

So now the topic has been switched to TULIP? There are special forums for that. Why is it you think you can take over every thread willy nilly to discuss whatever it is YOU want to discuss-----even your own---. We should have one category I guess. We could call it GeneZ. In fact I am thinking a whole book by that name should be added to the Bible as he seems to be the only one who knows how to the interpret the Bible. Or maybe he could become the pope and reside in the denomination that has already laid claim to that authority.

I pray there is coming a day when the Church will have a new and better Reformation.
One of breaking down the self imposed tyranny that having an affinity for a false teaching develops into, for the vulnerable believer.

The next reformation will be hopefully a big step closer to better understanding the mind of Christ.

Hey, start one, Write some books and letters and articles. Post your thesis on the doors of the Reformed churches and all others that you judge unsuitable. Rally up the zealots. Make it happen.

All in all I find your post useless. It answered no questions, offered no solutions, benefited no one. It did raise a lot of questions, mainly about what on earth the author was talking about and where on earth did they get their ideas. Maybe he will answer those questions. Hopefully with more than a bunch of self aggrandizement as his sole support for what he presents.

 

[sawdust]

God does not depend upon the believer! God works all things together for good to those who love him (i.e. everyone who has been born of God), this includes correction and discipline for sin.

So you think the Laodiceans loved God? The Lord was going to vomit them up if they didn't repent. Is that what you do to people who love you?

 

[David1701]

So you think the Laodiceans loved God? The Lord was going to vomit them up if they didn't repent. Is that what you do to people who love you?

Not everyone who goes to church and professes to be a Christian is born again...

 

[sawdust]

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose.

God working fo the good has nothing to do with what the person does or doesn't do. This passage is not about God giving things to people. It is about God working for our good. Even if we get sick unto death He works it for good. He takes us Home.

Let's assume the Laodiceans (as an example) don't repent. How much good will they see before the Lord has had enough of their shenanigans and takes them out of this world?

Those who love the Lord receive the good every moment even when they are in a disastrous situation. Their response is like Job "I know my redeemer lives" and they are not shaken. Those who do not love God, but rather love what He does/gives them, do not respond in faith but fear and are easily traumatised by their bad circumstances. You hear things like "why me God" and "this isn't fair" or "it's too hard". Now, one can understand such response when one is young in the Lord, but I hear this talk from those who have allegedly walked with the Lord a long time. The Lord is not going to bring forth good from a person's bad decision after bad decision after bad decision because they neglected to make the word their priority or refused correction. They will reap what they have sown and the Lord will not stop their own stupidity falling square upon their shoulders.

It seems to me you keep missing the point that the verse says He works the good for those who LOVE HIM. Not all believers love the Lord. They only love what He does, not who He is.

 

[sawdust]

Not everyone who goes to church and professes to be a Christian is born again...

The Lord Jesus called them His Church so don't play that card that they didn't belong to Him.

 

[GeneZ]

Are you free from the sin natures effects? And what do you mean by control our soul? Is this something you surmise by adding psychology to it or is it something the Bible tells us?

The Spirit indwells all who have believed in Christ.

That alone does not guarantee that the Spirit will "fill" you. (control your flesh, and guide your mind/soul)
For believers are warned not to grieve, nor quench the Spirit. The Spirit only fills us when we admit when we sin to God.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, ​

and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. ​

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and ​

purify us from all unrighteousness. ​

​

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.​

1 John 1:7-10​

We are warned in various parts of the Bible to become aware of our sins, because they cut us off from the filling of the Spirit.
.

 

[GeneZ]

All in all I find your post useless. It answered no questions, offered no solutions, benefited no one.

Was that the Spirit of God speaking through you?

 

[GeneZ]

Well, that leaves me scratching my head. I scarcely can determine what question to ask to help make sense of that post. Let's see. Where does "just a little of our depravity" come from the doctrine of total depravity. Why can't it be total. What do you think that doctrine states?

Since you are a Calvinist. One who is a proponent of the concept of Total Depravity?

And, since I apparently do not know what total depravity means?
Please, tell me what "total depravity" means in your own words...
Your own words please, so I can know what you think it means.
For, I am not sure that all Calvinists agree even amongst themselves.

What is total depravity?
I have a good idea what 'depravity' means.
But, "total depravity?" (to me) Would indicate that we possess nothing redeemable.
Nothing to saved.

 

[GeneZ]

Define irresistible depravity.

The fallen body of man is where the sin nature resides.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present
with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. " Romans 7:18

Paul shows in that verse that his will is helpless to do what is good because of his sin nature manifested by his flesh.
The flesh has total control over the soul devoid of God's power to overcome the flesh. That power to overcome is God's
enabling grace that comes from the Spirit of God. ++

For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing." Romans 7:19

That's the hint!
Paul desired to do good. That desire to do good? Is not depraved in its desire!
Its simply helpless to do it, because the power of the flesh is irresistible!

That is what I mean by "Irresistible Depravity."

Without imparting the power of grace to neutralize the flesh/sin nature?
Man would be stuck in a constant state of irresistible depravity caused by the fallen body that their soul is stuck in.

But? Take that soul out of that body? And, place that soul in a new sinless body? Being free of the sin nature's oppressive effect? That soul would not have to manifest depravity being manifested as before.

Hence, God'[s power of grace takes the sin nature and shuts it down, nullifying its power over the soul. Thus, allowing the soul freedom
to choose for the good, and by God's grace find itself for the first time doing that good it desired to do! Proving that the soul is oppressed into depravity, but not desiring depravity.... unless that soul desires "evil." That evil soul will approve of doing sin.

And evil soul + flesh = Total depravity.
A soul desiring God + the flesh = suffers from Irresistible depravity .
Irresistible until grace rescues that soul by suppressing the flesh with its dominance over that soul.

Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, ​

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

2 Corinthians 12:8-9a​

Grace is applied power from God to free up our souls when we walk in the Spirit.
The flesh substitutes self righteousness for grace for those so inclined.

 

[Arial]

It seems to me you keep missing the point that the verse says He works the good for those who LOVE HIM. Not all believers love the Lord. They only love what He does, not who He is.

Then they aren't believers Sawdust. Romans 5:1-5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through Him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hie does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Note how closely that relates to Romans 8 if you read the whole chapter instead of just pulling v 28 out and then describing "good" to determine what that passage is saying.

 

[David1701]

The Lord Jesus called them His Church so don't play that card that they didn't belong to Him.

A church very often has a mixture of people who are saved and people who are merely religious. If you have any more than minimal experience, you should know this.