Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[GeneZ]

Perhaps it is because you often seem to say one thing and then another when confronted with what was said. Never making yourself clear. And perhaps though you think you are dealing with the fact that God created a world in which sin was possible and then dealt with it, by saying He had a different purpose for creating this world, and that that creation had nothing to do with sin or evil; and that that purpose would have been achieved without sin; therefore this creation was not dependent on sin; solves the problem of why sin is in the world without God being the author of it. But merely side steps it with what if theories, you do not even acknowledge as what ifs. Rather they are stated as absolutes and get frustrated when they are not accepted as such. In the first place you approach the issue from a logical fallacy. As though anyone was saying God is the author of sin, which they do not.

Why?

What was smack dab in the center of the Garden?

" The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. "

God had it already there *before* the fall of Adam!

And, some still are to think that God's creation (and plan) had nothing to do with dealing with sin or evil?

God PLANNED IT!

The very things He created awaiting Adam's choice absolutely screams out about that reality!

Before Adam fell?

Satan and his angels (and God's angels) were already living in the realm of needing knowledge of good and evil...

God allowed for man's fall as to get the angels watching man, to learn to think straight in regards to good
and evil, by the living examples that fallen men would choose to walk in.

I am beginning to think that God may classify "over-thinking" as a form of man's denial and sin.
Its a way to acknowledge truth exists without coming to a knowledge of the truth.


grace and peace ...................

 

[GeneZ]

A believer is part of all believers. Does not knowing Romans 8:28 stop God from working for their good?

The may not know all truth, and none do. They may not interpret things the way that you do or the way someone else does, but unless that interpretation changes the Christ of the Bible, and the means of salvation, it does not make them an unbeliever. Being mature is not a criteria of salvation. And a true believer will never reject Christ.

Maturity has nothing to do with it. You are adding to the gospel. What is it they don't discern here? The sacrificed body of Christ. Put the verse into its context. They were abusing the Lord's Supper.

Your own doctrine seem very unsound, so I wouldn't be throwing that particular stone. And you better pray you are not right in what you say here.

And Paul was correcting them, not condemning them.

You knew them did you? Plus the church at Corinth was not the same audience as that of Romans and Paul was no dealing with the same thing in both places. And what he said in Romans about God working for the good of His people was not changed in any way by what was said at Corinth.

And you are a part of that very thing when you adulterate the word in the way you are doing with just these three scriptures. Your doctrine is not sound. It is in opposition to what the Bible says and your stuff added to it.

How do you know He isn't? He allowed me to be in a lot of it before He brought me out of it. And when He did I learned how to discern truth by having experienced falseness. I learned why it was false and not just that it was. I learned the truth, and I know what counters the lies because I learned the truth. I learned more about God by coming out of the lie than I ever could have from never having witnessed the lies. It is often the means by which a person grows.

Okkkkk...... I see.


Grace and peace ............

 

[Arial]

Thank you for your time but if you cannot keep the posts about the posts and not the posters then do not expect further replies.

Is this about the post or the poster? Somebody disagreeing with you and pointing out that you too have flaws, as a part of clarifying their position and your remark, does not make it about the poster. Not even if that poster is you. I actually could care less whether there are further replies. It is usually an unpleasant experience.

I have already addressed both protests and after doing so more than once do not expect me to unnecessarily repost already posted content.

You could try addressing the protest I presented. And don't forget, it was you who came back to the thread bulling everyone to get back to the topic of the OP and when they do, you say you have already addressed what they say and won't do it again.

No. First of all it's off-topic.

If it was off topic, why did you bring it up?

Second, you were the one making the baseless claim scripture does not tell us when satan fell so it's up to you, not me, to prove it.

Do you know the meaning of "when"? It tells us about his fall.

I do not do shifting onuses.

You do them quite often.

My time is being wasted and the neglect of already-posted content is unacceptable.

Sorry you feel your posts are neglected (I wonder if that means insufficient applauding, since I see none of them being neglected, just questioned.) Sorry you feel that other people's views and comments are a waste of your time.

 

[GeneZ]

A believer is part of all believers. Does not knowing Romans 8:28 stop God from working for their good?

Show me where it says specifically..... "for their good?"

The Greek is specific.

It says... for "the" good.
Not, for their good.

In other words...

Rebellious believers have all things working for their punishment..
And, the eventual sin onto death if they do not come to their senses when corrections are brought their way by God.
But, even with that happening, for their "bad.'? God still works them for "the" good.
Which is? His intended purpose in His plan.

For mature believers, all things are working together for "the good" which will include special blessings that the mature will receive in time.
Bestowed upon the mature believer as a means to glorify Christ. But, not to glorify the believer. That glory will happen at the resurrection.

grace and peace ....

 

[sawdust]

Show me where it says specifically..... "for their good?"

The Greek is specific.

It says... for "the" good.
Not, for their good.

In other words...

Rebellious believers have all things working for their punishment..
And, the eventual sin onto death if they do not come to their senses when corrections are brought their way by God.
But, even with that happening, for their "bad.'? God still works them for "the" good.
Which is? His intended purpose in His plan.

For mature believers, all things are working together for "the good" which will include special blessings that the mature will receive in time.
Bestowed upon the mature believer as a means to glorify Christ. But, not to glorify the believer. That glory will happen at the resurrection.

grace and peace ....

Interesting what you said regarding Romans 8:28. I think we automatically tend to think of it being for the individual believer because it states "good to those who love the Lord". Yet you've given me something to think on in how it works out at the end. Thanks.

 

[Josheb]

So you say He can act outside His character but you don't mean He can act outside His character?

I qualified my statement. I did so in a manner comprehensible by all. I also showed the problem with making God dependent on sin is exactly the kind of acting outside His character you are protesting. I did that in a manner compensable by all.

Pretending that is not the case will be ignored.

Sin did not change God

I agree (and nothing I posted should have ever been construed to say otherwise).

...so your argument is invalid.

Tell @GeneZ.

He, not I, is the one arguing God HAD to have a plan for sin. This op, not my posts, argued God saw something He NEEDED to address and address with a specific plan for sin. I argued a completely different paradigm. When you protest as if that was my position then you demonstrate what I posted wasn't correctly understood. When you do so and do not take up these issues with the op and those supporting the op you demonstrate bias and trolling.

 

[Josheb]

Is this about the post or the poster? Somebody disagreeing with you and pointing out that you too have flaws, as a part of clarifying their position and your remark, does not make it about the poster. Not even if that poster is you. I actually could care less whether there are further replies. It is usually an unpleasant experience.

You could try addressing the protest I presented. And don't forget, it was you who came back to the thread bulling everyone to get back to the topic of the OP and when they do, you say you have already addressed what they say and won't do it again.

If it was off topic, why did you bring it up?

Do you know the meaning of "when"? It tells us about his fall.

You do them quite often.

Sorry you feel your posts are neglected (I wonder if that means insufficient applauding, since I see none of them being neglected, just questioned.) Sorry you feel that other people's views and comments are a waste of your time.

 

[GeneZ]

Interesting what you said regarding Romans 8:28. I think we automatically tend to think of it being for the individual believer because it states "good to those who love the Lord". Yet you've given me something to think on in how it works out at the end. Thanks.

Not everyone who is saved, truly loves the Lord....

Revelation 3:1

“To the angel of the church in Sardis write:​

​

These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.
I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.​

They love the Lord?

 

[sawdust]

I qualified my statement. I did so in a manner comprehensible by all. I also showed the problem with making God dependent on sin is exactly the kind of acting outside His character you are protesting. I did that in a manner compensable by all.

Pretending that is not the case will be ignored.

I agree (and nothing I posted should have ever been construed to say otherwise).

Tell @GeneZ.

He, not I, is the one arguing God HAD to have a plan for sin. This op, not my posts, argued God saw something He NEEDED to address and address with a specific plan for sin. I argued a completely different paradigm. When you protest as if that was my position then you demonstrate what I posted wasn't correctly understood. When you do so and do not take up these issues with the op and those supporting the op you demonstrate bias and trolling.

Sure. Have a nice day.

 

[Arial]

It says... for "the" good.

"for the good of those who"

 

[GeneZ]

"for the good of those who"

Yes... My misstep on that one.

Just the same it remains applicable only for those who LOVE the Lord.

Many do not love God as He wants to be loved. That is why Paul made sure to specify they must love the Lord.
Not have all things work for the good simply because one believes.

Being emotional towards the Lord without advancing in knowledge is not mature love.
Its typical young Christian love.

Then the testing and challenges will come. Emotion alone can not sustain that kind of love.
Truth must replace our old ways of thinking. If not? How can we love the Lord?

Instead... many will love their pet doctrines and the cliques they will form around them.
Taking pride in what they prefer to believe while forming into mutual admiration societies.
I know that does not sound friendly to some. But, its truth.

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, ​

who have been called according to his purpose.​

God does not work all things for the good unless one is willing to be corrected when shown we are wrong by God's Word.
TULIP comes to mind as one example ... besides all the other "thought boxes" that certain denominations grab onto and
slam the door shut.

God can expose it often in simple things.... Like those who believe and insist one must be water baptized to be saved.

But, who am I? We are each run the race as the one who is to win. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27.

 

[Arial]

Just the same it remains applicable only for those who LOVE the Lord.

Many do not love God as He wants to be loved. That is why Paul made sure to specify they must love the Lord.
Not have all things work for the good simply because one believes.

You completely leave God working in us out of the equation and now present a God who withholds from His children until they love Him perfectly. You treat correction and discipline with "not good" when it is the very thing that is for our good. Do you define this "good" in Romans 8:28 as good things? Previously in the chapter Paul had been dealing with suffering that we encounter in our earthly walk as Christians, which is also a promise of things we must endure that is made to us. So don't divorce the verse from its context. And then come up with the baloney that God only does good for us when we love Him enough. We will never love Him as He deserves to be loved while we are in this body. We can't. We are too corruptible and human and He is infinite and eternal. The only reason we love Him at all is because He first loved us and poured His love into us. But if we are in Christ, we do love Him because Christ loves Him even as He is loved. John 17.

Below we see the actions of the Holy Spirit and the Father and the Son, doing a work in us.



26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becauseg the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,h for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Being emotional towards the Lord without advancing in knowledge is not mature love.
Its typical young Christian love.

Then the testing and challenges will come. Emotion alone can not sustain that kind of love.
Truth must replace our old ways of thinking. If not? How can we love the Lord?

That passage has nothing to do with emotions or immature or mature love. Does God withhold good from the baby Christian?
You are off on a different topic that is not even related to the scripture you are adulterating. If all we have is emotion we never had the truth. You are equating false, professing Christians with true Christians.

Instead... many will love their pet doctrines and the cliques they will form around them.
Taking pride in what they prefer to believe while forming into mutual admiration societies.
I know that does not sound friendly to some.

Again. A whole other subject no related to the passage you use. That is a fact.

God does not work all things for the good unless one is willing to be corrected when shown we are wrong by God's Word.
TULIP comes to mind as one example ... besides all the other "thought boxes" that certain denominations grab onto and
slam the door shut.

The correction is what is for the good of. Stop thinking of good as "Oh what good things God has given me!" It is more like a parent saying, "This is for your own good," when they discipline you or deny you what you want. The entire set of wisdom literature in the Bible is about "for your own good."

God can expose it often in simple things.... Like those who believe and insist one must be water baptized to be saved.

You really can't keep your thought processes from blowing here and there can you? Pick a subject and deal with that subject. I can picture one of those preachers who rabbit trails off in so many different directions before he makes it to the actual message he said he was beginning, that the service meant to be an hour is now three hours long, and all people are able to keep on their minds is lunch.

 

[GeneZ]

You completely leave God working in us out of the equation and now present a God who withholds from His children until they love Him perfectly. You treat correction and discipline with "not good" when it is the very thing that is for our good. Do you define this "good" in Romans 8:28 as good things? Previously in the chapter Paul had been dealing with suffering that we encounter in our earthly walk as Christians, which is also a promise of things we must endure that is made to us.

God in His omniscience knows those believers who are genuinely loving Him.
Loving Him according to their capacity that they possess at that moment.

God knows who is heading towards maturity who will be having their love developing and growing.

For love grows deeper as we mature. Not, love suddenly appearing when we reach maturity.
(as you seemed to think I was saying)

I hope that clarifies for you what I said.

Philippians 1:9

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."​

Always growing and gaining in knowledge and insight is an indicator of who loves God. Too many stop and hunker down within the realms of their controversial beliefs. Only to fight a never ending battle to keep finding ways for vindicating their stand. In doing so, never being able to discover the vast amounts of knowledge as God would have it to keep on growing unto full maturity in Christ.

grace and truth .............

 

[Arial]

God in His omniscience knows those believers who are genuinely loving Him.
Loving Him according to their capacity that they possess at that moment.

God knows who is heading towards maturity who will be having their love developing and growing.

For love grows deeper as we mature. Not, love suddenly appearing when we reach maturity.
(as you seemed to think I was saying)

I hope that clarifies for you what I said.

Philippians 1:9

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."​

Always growing and gaining in knowledge and insight is an indicator of who loves God. Too many stop and hunker down within the realms of their controversial beliefs. Only to fight a never ending battle to keep finding ways for vindicating their stand. In doing so, never being able to discover the vast amounts of knowledge as God would have it to keep on growing unto full maturity in Christ.

grace and truth .............

And now you have completely moved the conversation to back peddling from what you had said before. And not actually addressing what has been said to you. I have more organized brain processes and do not really enjoy all the bouncing around and never getting anything accomplished. So, see ya.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?​

Because forewarned gives you two more arms.

 

[GeneZ]

And now you have completely moved the conversation to back peddling from what you had said before. And not actually addressing what has been said to you. I have more organized brain processes and do not really enjoy all the bouncing around and never getting anything accomplished. So, see ya.

What do you want?

I wished to clear up what you have been not understanding, so I reworded it in hopes that you can.

Now you want to accuse me of what?
And, ignore what I said in clarification?

 

[sawdust]

You completely leave God working in us out of the equation and now present a God who withholds from His children until they love Him perfectly.

What has been presented is the same thing, yet what you see and what I see are not the same. What I see is the Lord who cannot work the good for those who run off with their "little bit of knowledge" thinking they have it "altogether", all the while He stands and the door and knocks. It is not a matter of God withholding His love, but a refusal of the believer to be corrected and grow up. For these types, God cannot work all things for the good. These types are going to suffer a lot of bad because of their arrogant and self righteous decisions.

 

[GeneZ]

You completely leave God working in us out of the equation and now present a God who withholds from His children until they love Him perfectly. You treat correction and discipline with "not good" when it is the very thing that is for our good. Do you define this "good" in Romans 8:28 as good things? Previously in the chapter Paul had been dealing with suffering that we encounter in our earthly walk as Christians, which is also a promise of things we must endure that is made to us. So don't divorce the verse from its context. And then come up with the baloney that God only does good for us when we love Him enough. We will never love Him as He deserves to be loved while we are in this body. We can't. We are too corruptible and human and He is infinite and eternal. The only reason we love Him at all is because He first loved us and poured His love into us. But if we are in Christ, we do love Him because Christ loves Him even as He is loved. John 17.

Below we see the actions of the Holy Spirit and the Father and the Son, doing a work in us.



26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becauseg the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,h for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

That passage has nothing to do with emotions or immature or mature love. Does God withhold good from the baby Christian?
You are off on a different topic that is not even related to the scripture you are adulterating. If all we have is emotion we never had the truth. You are equating false, professing Christians with true Christians.

Again. A whole other subject no related to the passage you use. That is a fact.

The correction is what is for the good of. Stop thinking of good as "Oh what good things God has given me!" It is more like a parent saying, "This is for your own good," when they discipline you or deny you what you want. The entire set of wisdom literature in the Bible is about "for your own good."

You really can't keep your thought processes from blowing here and there can you? Pick a subject and deal with that subject. I can picture one of those preachers who rabbit trails off in so many different directions before he makes it to the actual message he said he was beginning, that the service meant to be an hour is now three hours long, and all people are able to keep on their minds is lunch.

Until you can comprehend what I have been saying you are going to keep assuming I am changing the subject.

 

[Josheb]

Until you can comprehend what I have been saying you are going to keep assuming I am changing the subject.

What makes you think she does not comprehend?

 

[David1701]

What has been presented is the same thing, yet what you see and what I see are not the same. What I see is the Lord who cannot work the good for those who run off with their "little bit of knowledge" thinking they have it "altogether", all the while He stands and the door and knocks. It is not a matter of God withholding His love, but a refusal of the believer to be corrected and grow up. For these types, God cannot work all things for the good. These types are going to suffer a lot of bad because of their arrogant and self righteous decisions.

God does not depend upon the believer! God works all things together for good to those who love him (i.e. everyone who has been born of God), this includes correction and discipline for sin.