Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[Arial]

Sorry. Yes, it did!

For it was in response to what you said here:



I then proceeded to show you how believers can be that terrible, and still be saved.

When I did that? You claimed I was changing the subject.

You do that a lot when you can not keep up with why something is being said in response.

It takes time .....

Actually.. It takes growing by grace in knowledge to have what is needed to connect the dots.

But, by keeping oneself locked down in man made dogma prevents the needed venturing out into growing in
what would be needed to mature in Christ. Which would be to come to know the love of God that causes us
to love God... not simply by emoting about God. But in coming to know because of all the sound doctrine He
wants to fill us with to become one with Him by means of the Spirit.

grace and peace .............

Why does everything you post sound accusatory and insulting and judgemental?

 

[Arial]

You do that a lot when you can not keep up with why something is being said in response.

This may be difficult for you to believe, but I am keeping up and you are all over the place. You take a response to one post that is made to you and start a rabbit trail from it. No need to be condescending.

Actually.. It takes growing by grace in knowledge to have what is needed to connect the dots.

But, by keeping oneself locked down in man made dogma prevents the needed venturing out into growing in
what would be needed to mature in Christ. Which would be to come to know the love of God that causes us
to love God... not simply by emoting about God. But in coming to know because of all the sound doctrine He
wants to fill us with to become one with Him by means of the Spirit.

Do you remember what was being discussed?

 

[Arial]

It says that many Christians made Paul weep over their flesh-lived, emotion-driven lives ...

No it doesn't. Show me where you get that from?

Philippians 3:18-19

For I have often told you, and now say again with tears, that many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction; their god is their stomach; their glory is in their shame. They are focused on earthly things."

This is not Romans 8 and they are not dealing with the same thing, and are not written to the same people or for the same reason. When you figure out the difference by discovering the who, what, when, where, and why of the different books, get back to me.

In Philippians 3:18-19? Paul was speaking of believers who he said lived as enemies of the cross.

An unbeliever would not have been living as an enemy.

For an unbeliever would be an actual enemy of the cross!

I guarantee you.. Those believers Paul spoke of in Philippians 3:18-19?
They were not experiencing the benefits of Romans 8:28!

Romans 8:28 is not about receiving benefits. It is about God working for our good. It is for our good that we are corrected. It is for our good that we reap what we sow. It is for a child's good that they are corrected and disciplined. I am done trying to hope that you can get outside the box of what you think good means in that passage. I have said it half a dozen times, and in different ways, hoping you could grasp it.

They were heading for the sin onto death.
For no grace peace would be granted for them in their dying!
"Their end is destruction."

All sin is unto death. Jesus died and rose again to defeat that foe for those who believe. And no one can take them out of His hand. Destruction does not apply to the believer but only the unbeliever. So -----

I then proceeded to show you how believers can be that terrible, and still be saved.

When I did that? You claimed I was changing the subject.

I claimed you were changing the subject when you went on a rant about false teachers, and the ignorance of everyone. And I have never claimed that believers never do terrible things and are still saved, so there was no point in what you said. All I claim in that regard and was doing so in my comment that they weren't believers, and pretty sure I said, was a believer does not live a whole lifestyle of unrepentant sin. The examples you gave, were not unrepentant were they? Not to mention if you see a Christian living in sin for a time, no one them and God knows what is going on in their heart in the midst of it. They may be silently, desperately, clinging to God, rather than letting go of Him.

 

[Arial]

It keeps going over your head. Why are they making bad decisions in the first place??? If you love the Lord, it means you know Him, really know Him and you don't make bad decisions because His word and Spirit guides you in all you do and say.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

It is not going over my head. I know exactly what you are saying. And I am showing you where you use the scripture, particularly the word "good" in a different way than what Paul is using it. That seems to be going over your head.

We never fully know the Lord. We are to be be always seeking His face and learning and growing from His word. And we do not always listen to the Spirit and often we confuse our own thoughts as being His. Believers make bad decisions all the time. It does not mean they do not love the Lord.

I also suspect from the above post that you are misinterpreting what Paul means by "walking in the flesh" and "walking in the Spirit." This is often said to mean carnal Christian's and those who are not carnal, giving to carnal the meaning of backsliding. And this is why you cannot understand what I am saying and think I don't understand what you are saying.

Paul begins that chapter with "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Verse 3 "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

So those who walk according to the Spirit are those who are in Christ, and those who walk according to the flesh are those who are not in Christ. Those in Christ have the Holy Spirit. Verse 9 "You, (believers)however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him." 26-28 "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness, For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words, And He who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. 29. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those He justified He also glorified."

Those who love God are all those in Christ.


Those who walk according to the Spirit are all those in Christ.
Those who walk according to the flesh are all those not in Christ.

 

[Arial]

Are you really going to sit there and try and tell me that every believer truly loves God?

Yes.

That every believer "rejoice in their sufferings"?

No. We have to learn that as we learn to trust God and grow in our faith. And it does not mean that we like our sufferings.

That they have built a character that withstands picking up their Cross without them falling over the moment things don't go their way?

No. If they fall away from trusting in Christ for their salvation, they do not truly believe but are the seed that fell on rocky ground. Matt 13.

God's love is what produces the verse you quote but that does not automatically mean that love is reciprocated. We have to learn how to love God and most Christians have no idea how to love God even though they claim to have walked with Him most of their lives. Oh, they think they love God because they do this, that and the other and they get a nice warm fuzzy feel when they think on what He has done or get the opposite feeling when they think on their own sin but they have no real knowledge of what love is because they have no real knowledge of who God is. God is love! They run away at the first piece of opposition, fall apart as soon as anything remotely heavy is placed on their shoulders.

We love Him because He first loved us. We grow in our love as we learn of Him. You are confusing immaturity as being fake love.

"You are the salt of the earth", yet our countries are falling apart at the seams. The Church is weak and pathetic and couldn't hold back a toddler from a candy store let alone the evil that mounts it's attacks today.

Whole other topic not related to Rom 8.

 

[David1701]

And the people who were saved, because the Lord referred to them as being His Church, were told He would vomit them out of His mouth. Wake up! These are people who are believers stop making excuses.

1 John 5:4 (EMTV) because everything having been born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world—your faith.

1 John 3:9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

You wake up! Start believing what God's word says and stop worshipping your will.

 

[sawdust]

It is not going over my head. I know exactly what you are saying. And I am showing you where you use the scripture, particularly the word "good" in a different way than what Paul is using it. That seems to be going over your head.

Good is good. I am not using it in a different way.

We love Him because He first loved us. We grow in our love as we learn of Him. You are confusing immaturity as being fake love.

It's not fake love as you imagine it, it is loving God for what they have not for who God is.

Yes.
No. We have to learn that as we learn to trust God and grow in our faith. And it does not mean that we like our sufferings.

You honestly want to tell me the Laodiceans loved God? He was going to spit them out of His mouth if they didn't repent. You're living in a fairy tale if you think every believer loves God. We have to learn to love God, it is not automatic, not everybody learns how to do that. It does not mean they do not trust Him for their salvation.

Whole other topic not related to Rom 8.

No it isn't. A sound Church makes a sound community. When the Church wanders from the truth, evil can rise. I pray all believers come to understand Romans 8 because if they did we wouldn't have so many cry babies in the Church afraid of their own shadows.

Those who walk according to the Spirit are all those in Christ.
Those who walk according to the flesh are all those not in Christ.

Rubbish. If that were the case Paul would have no need to command believers to walk after the Spirit. It is not automatic that a believer will be controlled by the Spirit at all times. If they were, they would not sin. Just because every believer is indwelt by the Spirit doesn't mean they will follow His lead 24/7. Nor does it mean because a believer walks after their own flesh that they are no longer (or never were) indwelt by the Spirit. There is a difference between being indwelt and being filled. The indwelling is our seal against being lost and guarantees our salvation but the filling is what guides us day to day and equips us to learn spiritual matters and apply them. When we grieve and quench the Spirit we are not walking by means of the Spirit.

 

[sawdust]

1 John 5:4 (EMTV) because everything having been born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world—your faith.

1 John 3:9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

You wake up! Start believing what God's word says and stop worshipping your will.

How about you address the issue raised? We are not talking about whether you can lose salvation nor are we talking about whether one can habitually practicing sinning. We are talking about believers failing to mature in Christ so that, even after walking with Him for a long time, they still don't know how to love Him. I gave the Laodiceans as an example. You tried to tell me they weren't really believers even though the Lord addresses them as His Church. Do you want to tell me again they are not believers or do you want to recognise being a believer doesn't mean one automatically loves God?

 

[GeneZ]

1 John 5:4 (EMTV) because everything having been born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world—your faith.

1 John 3:9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

You wake up! Start believing what God's word says and stop worshipping your will.

Here is what we find as a common problem with those who depend solely upon translations.

No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

The Greek grammar gives a more realistic meaning for the church.
Because "at the moment" one was born of God he can not sin.
That was said to show that God's grace can provide the power not to sin.

But, here is the dilemma for those who take that passage to mean we no longer sin?

1 John 2:1​

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. ​

But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father​

—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."​

​

​

What does that tell the Christian to believe?
That we no longer can sin?????

 

[David1701]

How about you address the issue raised? We are not talking about whether you can lose salvation nor are we talking about whether one can habitually practicing sinning. We are talking about believers failing to mature in Christ so that, even after walking with Him for a long time, they still don't know how to love Him. I gave the Laodiceans as an example. You tried to tell me they weren't really believers even though the Lord addresses them as His Church. Do you want to tell me again they are not believers or do you want to recognise being a believer doesn't mean one automatically loves God?

If someone does not love God, then he is not saved. If he does not love God, then he hates God (there is no neutrality - he is for or against). Also, faith works by love; so, if he doesn't love God, then he doesn't have real faith either.

If one has been born of God, then he knows God, loves God and wants to please him. There is no not knowing how to love him, because his new nature simply does love him. Every born again Christian knows that, from the moment he was born again, he has loved the Lord and has not stopped loving him (this is the main reason why we are sorry when we have sinned against him).

 

[David1701]

Good is good. I am not using it in a different way.


It's not fake love as you imagine it, it is loving God for what they have not for who God is.

"Loving" God (or anyone else) for what you have is called "cupboard love", where I live, and it is definitely fake.

 

[Arial]

It's not fake love as you imagine it, it is loving God for what they have not for who God is.

And that is a fake love. That entire element that is rampant in the church is a direct result Charles Finney and his free will doctrine that causes careless and unscriptural interpretations of much of the Bible. Rather than go into that here I will start a thread about it and document my findings and my statements. How you and @GeneZ are adulerating this scripture, putting the focus on mankind rather than a sovereign God is just one example.

You honestly want to tell me the Laodiceans loved God? He was going to spit them out of His mouth if they didn't repent. You're living in a fairy tale if you think every believer loves God. We have to learn to love God, it is not automatic, not everybody learns how to do that. It does not mean they do not trust Him for their salvation.

What was it that the church in Laodicea was doing/facing that prompted that warning? There is a bit of a parable in what Jesus says which the Laodiceans would have grasped immediately. Their water supply was provided from a distant source through pipes and was lukewarm and barely drinkable. The neighboring town had Hierapolis had medicinal hot springs. Colasse was supplied by a cold mountain stream. Christ is urging them to be either cold (refreshing) or healing (hot.) Rather than lukewarm. It does not mean they did not love God. It means they were complacent, or focused on the wrong things.

When you take the sovereign God out of saving without stepping back to wait upon humanity to make a decision to love Him, you also take all the power and love and goodness of God out of our walk with God and put it all into our own hands.

No it isn't. A sound Church makes a sound community. When the Church wanders from the truth, evil can rise. I pray all believers come to understand Romans 8 because if they did we wouldn't have so many cry babies in the Church afraid of their own shadows.

Christians become afraid of their own shadows when they are taught they must depend on themselves, and their behavior, to produce a love for God in themselves.

Rubbish. If that were the case Paul would have no need to command believers to walk after the Spirit. It is not automatic that a believer will be controlled by the Spirit at all times.

Do they still have the Spirit though? Does the Spirit love the Father? Are they still in Christ? If the answer to those questions is yes, then it is those who are in Christ, who have the Spirit, and love God. Teaching to walk in agreement with the Spirit is instruction.

 

[sawdust]

If someone does not love God, then he is not saved. If he does not love God, then he hates God (there is no neutrality - he is for or against). Also, faith works by love; so, if he doesn't love God, then he doesn't have real faith either.

If one has been born of God, then he knows God, loves God and wants to please him. There is no not knowing how to love him, because his new nature simply does love him. Every born again Christian knows that, from the moment he was born again, he has loved the Lord and has not stopped loving him (this is the main reason why we are sorry when we have sinned against him).

Sure mate. We'll just ignore the Laodiceans, Hymenaeus and Alexander and the Ephesians who left their first love.

Every believer loves the Lord with all their heart and mind and soul and strength.

Move along, nothing to see here.


The only thing a person knows about God when they are saved is that He exists, He's good and He saved them. They have yet to truly come to know Him personally and anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves.

 

[sawdust]

And that is a fake love. That entire element that is rampant in the church is a direct result Charles Finney

Didn't know Charles Finney was alive during the first century.

What was it that the church in Laodicea was doing/facing that prompted that warning? There is a bit of a parable in what Jesus says which the Laodiceans would have grasped immediately. Their water supply was provided from a distant source through pipes and was lukewarm and barely drinkable. The neighboring town had Hierapolis had medicinal hot springs. Colasse was supplied by a cold mountain stream. Christ is urging them to be either cold (refreshing) or healing (hot.) Rather than lukewarm. It does not mean they did not love God. It means they were complacent, or focused on the wrong things.

I see, they really loved God they were just complacent. Strewth! See, this is why we have to learn what love is. If you think there is room in love for complacency, stay away from me.

When you take the sovereign God out of saving without stepping back to wait upon humanity to make a decision to love Him, you also take all the power and love and goodness of God out of our walk with God and put it all into our own hands.

It has nothing to do with taking God out. We see Him standing at the door and knock. He never leaves. We must learn to love. Not every believer learns. It's that simple.

Christians become afraid of their own shadows when they are taught they must depend on themselves, and their behavior, to produce a love for God in themselves.

I have not said anywhere that Christians must depend on themselves to produce love. That's the typical Calvinist response as soon as someone says Christians can fail. What we have been given in Christ is enabled by the Spirit and grace but we must make it our own by taking hold. (Phil.3:12&13) We are not wholly inactive participants in our growing up.

Do they still have the Spirit though? Does the Spirit love the Father? Are they still in Christ? If the answer to those questions is yes, then it is those who are in Christ, who have the Spirit, and love God. Teaching to walk in agreement with the Spirit is instruction.

Did the Laodiceans have the Spirit? Yes. We're they loving God by walking after their flesh? No. Instruction can be rejected and the Spirit can be grieved and quenched.

If loving God was all so automatic simply because we are believers, then why does Paul have to tell us what love is (1Cor.13)? Why does John have to tell us to check how we treat each other? (1Jn.4:20) Why does the scripture even have to speak of us reaching the full stature of Christ if we love God the moment we are saved? (Eph.4:13) It's simple, because we don't know what love really is until we really know God and that takes time and lots and lots and lots of learning.

Faith is not static. Some Christians have so little faith it's barely discernible they are Christians and I'm not talking about new born Christians. At least in their case it's understandable. We have to learn to rethink and re-priortise everything in life. Too few learn how to live the abundant life Christ came to give us, what love they had grows cold and they bumble and stumble through their spiritual life. I have seen it too often, thirty years allegedly walking with the Lord and still clueless having no idea how to rejoice in the Lord.

Be it unto you according to your faith.

 

[sawdust]

"Loving" God (or anyone else) for what you have is called "cupboard love", where I live, and it is definitely fake.

So you don't love God because He saved you?

 

[David1701]

Sure mate. We'll just ignore the Laodiceans, Hymenaeus and Alexander and the Ephesians who left their first love.

Every believer loves the Lord with all their heart and mind and soul and strength.

Move along, nothing to see here.


The only thing a person knows about God when they are saved is that He exists, He's good and He saved them. They have yet to truly come to know Him personally and anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves.

That is not the testimony of someone whom the Lord has saved.

This is the New Covenant

Jer. 31:31-34 (KJV)
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

1 John 4:6,7 (KJV)
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

 

[David1701]

So you don't love God because He saved you?

I love the Lord because of who he is, first and foremost. I thank and praise him because he saved me.

 

[GeneZ]

If someone does not love God, then he is not saved. If he does not love God, then he hates God (there is no neutrality - he is for or against). Also, faith works by love; so, if he doesn't love God, then he doesn't have real faith either.

If one has been born of God, then he knows God, loves God and wants to please him. There is no not knowing how to love him, because his new nature simply does love him. Every born again Christian knows that, from the moment he was born again, he has loved the Lord and has not stopped loving him (this is the main reason why we are sorry when we have sinned against him).

You are reasoning as if God were functioning on the same level as you.

God has a purpose in saving us. He does not pick us like a pretty flower he likes. He saves anyone who "believes."

You assume only believers who want to be positive to following God? Are the only ones who believed?
Then I ask?

Why do you think Jesus needed to emphasize what he said about those who believe (Greek meaning= at one point in time).

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me ​

I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will ​

but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, ​

that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the ​

last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes ​

in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:37-40​

My guess is that you never saw what that says before. I was saved for ten years before I knew I had gotten saved.
I was doing things that would make the legalist sneer and self righteously say I was not saved.

He shall lose none. Never drive any away... WHO AT ONE POINT IN TIME "BELIEVED."

 

[Arial]

Didn't know Charles Finney was alive during the first century.

I didn't say he was and I also said I would cover all of that in a separate thread. I am still working on it.

I see, they really loved God they were just complacent. Strewth! See, this is why we have to learn what love is. If you think there is room in love for complacency, stay away from me.

When you can make cogent arguments that actually carry weight, get back to me. You have a very limited and human idea of love, and human love is deeply flawed and misguided. When a Christian sins is it because they have an active hate towards God, or do they still love Him. Do they go in and out of love for God, as some say we go in and out of salvation? Take the Israelites for example. David sinned and sinned badly. DId he stop loving God? If he had, he would not have repented. What those who did not love God did, was worship other gods. Something David never did. Ever.

It has nothing to do with taking God out. We see Him standing at the door and knock. He never leaves. We must learn to love. Not every believer learns. It's that simple.

If a person never learns to love God they are not a believer. Do you think the love of God being poured into us does nothing?
Define what it means to love God?

I have not said anywhere that Christians must depend on themselves to produce love.

It is exactly what you are saying.

That's the typical Calvinist response as soon as someone says Christians can fail.

If it is typical it should be no problem for you to give me an example.

If loving God was all so automatic simply because we are believers, then why does Paul have to tell us what love is (1Cor.13)? Why does John have to tell us to check how we treat each other? (1Jn.4:20) Why does the scripture even have to speak of us reaching the full stature of Christ if we love God the moment we are saved? (Eph.4:13) It's simple, because we don't know what love really is until we really know God and that takes time and lots and lots and lots of learning.

You are talking about actions and behavior and attitudes as being love. And Paul had to tell that church a lot of things. We need instruction. We need correction. We need to be sanctified more and more. That does not mean we do not love God. Not loving God would be rejecting Him. You say one thing and then you also act like love is not love if it is not perfect love.

Faith is not static. Some Christians have so little faith it's barely discernible they are Christians and I'm not talking about new born Christians. At least in their case it's understandable. We have to learn to rethink and re-priortise everything in life. Too few learn how to live the abundant life Christ came to give us, what love they had grows cold and they bumble and stumble through their spiritual life. I have seen it too often, thirty years allegedly walking with the Lord and still clueless having no idea how to rejoice in the Lord.

How does that mean they don't love God?

 

[GeneZ]

I didn't say he was and I also said I would cover all of that in a separate thread. I am still working on it.

I believe what was being said, in response to you? Was concerning an attitude you attributed to Charles Finney's influence? Was being manifested by some in the early church.

It was not a new thing.


Legalism and antinomianism are old reactions. Charles Finney was just a Johnny come lately. So is every form of legalistic dogma.