Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[Arial]

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present
with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. " Romans 7:18

Paul shows in that verse that his will is helpless to do what is good because of his sin nature manifested by his flesh.
The flesh has total control over the soul devoid of God's power to overcome the flesh. That power to overcome is God's
enabling grace that comes from the Spirit of God. ++

Keeping in mind that Paul is speaking as a believer, not as an unbeliever.

For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing." Romans 7:19

That's the hint!
Paul desired to do good. That desire to do good? Is not depraved in its desire!
Its simply helpless to do it, because the power of the flesh is irresistible!

That is what I mean by "Irresistible Depravity."

Again, Paul is speaking as a believer, not as an unbeliever. And even as unbelievers we are not helpless to do good things. We can resist the desires of our flesh as unbelievers, if the desire to not do what would be bad is greater than the desire to do the bad. That God does not see our deeds that are good as good because they are not God motivated, but self motivated, and we ourselves are sinners, is the issue in that regard. And it is the doctrine that is contained in the "T" that makes this so. What we are powerless to do is to never sin.

And don't forget, that after Paul speaks of himself as a believer in all those passages, he gives the remedy. Romans 7:24-25 Wretched man that Iam! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but my flesh I serve the law of sin. Which speaks of the righteousness of Christ counted as ours, and out sealing by the Holy Spirit, and Jesus having defeated the power of sin over us so that it can no longer condemn us.

There is no such doctrine as irresistible depravity in the Bible.

Without imparting the power of grace to neutralize the flesh/sin nature?
Man would be stuck in a constant state of irresistible depravity caused by the fallen body that their soul is stuck in.

Grace does not neutralize anything, and certainly not our sin nature as we still have it, and still, even as believers, sometimes give in to it. Without the saving grace of God to regenerate a person (John 3 Eph 1-2) we would be stuck in our utter depravity.

But? Take that soul out of that body? And, place that soul in a new sinless body? Being free of the sin nature's oppressive effect? That soul would not have to manifest depravity being manifested as before.

The Bible does not say that God takes our soul out of our body and replaces it with a new soul and a new sinless body. We still have the same soul, and we have the same body of flesh, in which, as Paul says, sin is in, and also crouches as the door. What the Bible says is that God gives us a new heart on which are written His laws, a circumcised heart. (Not Mosaic law). (Ez 36:26; Ez 11:19) This new heart desires the things of God. It is called regeneration as a theological term, and the new birth by Jesus in John 3 and Peter in 1 Peter 1:3, and a new creation by Paul in Gal 6:15.

Hence, God'[s power of grace takes the sin nature and shuts it down, nullifying its power over the soul. Thus, allowing the soul freedom
to choose for the good, and by God's grace find itself for the first time doing that good it desired to do! Proving that the soul is oppressed into depravity, but not desiring depravity.... unless that soul desires "evil." That evil soul will approve of doing sin.

The sin nature is not shut down. That we still sin shows this to be so. In Christ we are freed from our bondage to sin and its power to condemn us. Jesus took that just punishment for our sins on the cross, defeated them when He rose from the dead, and they can no longer be held against us unto condemnation. We have been reconciled to God through the work of Jesus. I take it you do not believe that Paul in Romans 7 was talking about himself as a believer.

And evil soul + flesh = Total depravity.
A soul desiring God + the flesh = suffers from Irresistible depravity .
Irresistible until grace rescues that soul by suppressing the flesh with its dominance over that soul.

That is not the correct way to reach your conclusion. A soul is not evil and our flesh is not evil. Utter depravity means the whole man, body and soul (therefore the will also)was affected by the fall. It did not become evil in and of itself. What you say touches the edges of Greek dualism. Saving grace does not suppress the flesh, it creates a new creature by quickening us, dead in our tresspasses and sins as we are, to life, placing us in the Life, Christ. Christ rescues us from the kingdom of darkness.

Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” 2 Corinthians 12:8-9a
Grace is applied power from God to free up our souls when we walk in the Spirit.
The flesh substitutes self righteousness for grace for those so inclined.

The grace in that passage is not saving grace. Paul had already received that. The grace that was sufficient for Paul (and all believers) is that grace we receive from the throne of grace, that we need for whatever reason. It is God working in us to do and will according to His purpose.

 

[Arial]

Since you are a Calvinist. One who is a proponent of the concept of Total Depravity?

And, since I apparently do not know what total depravity means?
Please, tell me what "total depravity" means in your own words...
Your own words please, so I can know what you think it means.
For, I am not sure that all Calvinists agree even amongst themselves.

What is total depravity?
I have a good idea what 'depravity' means.
But, "total depravity?" (to me) Would indicate that we possess nothing redeemable.
Nothing to saved.

Total depravity is used to express the doctrine in order to make the acronym and it is often misunderstood to mean that man is as depraved as he possibly can be and acts in a depraved manner all the time. Radical depravity would be a better description. It simply means that man in his entirety is affected by the fall. His body and his soul. His will as well, as the will does not operate independent of his body and soul. ANd body and soul are distinct but not separate entities. He operates as a unit.

The doctrine of radical depravity is dealing with man's willingness or unwillingness to submit to God completely and in all his ways. It is his unwillingness to do so because of his sin nature (he loves his sin and supposed autonomy) that he cannot come to God through Christ, because he does not want to. Our will acts upon our greatest desire. It is free to do so, but it is not free to not do so.

The Bible and the world itself, are full of the evidence of this. One place it is most thourthly articulated is by Paul in Romans 1 and 2.

 

[Arial]

Was that the Spirit of God speaking through you?

No. That was me speaking. Why do you ask?

 

[Arial]

The Spirit indwells all who have believed in Christ.

That alone does not guarantee that the Spirit will "fill" you. (control your flesh, and guide your mind/soul)
For believers are warned not to grieve, nor quench the Spirit. The Spirit only fills us when we admit when we sin to God.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, ​

and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.​

​

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. ​

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and ​

purify us from all unrighteousness. ​

​

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.​

1 John 1:7-10​

We are warned in various parts of the Bible to become aware of our sins, because they cut us off from the filling of the Spirit.
.

Yes, but are you free from the sin natures effects? That was the question. And it was asked in response to this:

The depraved flesh inherited from Adam will control our soul from birth without grace making that soul free of the sin nature's effects!

 

[GeneZ]

Then they aren't believers Sawdust. Romans 5:1-5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through Him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hie does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Note how closely that relates to Romans 8 if you read the whole chapter instead of just pulling v 28 out and then describing "good" to determine what that passage is saying.

Believers can be terrible! Look at the young man in Corinth that was sleeping with his mother, and members of the church were boasting about it. Paul never said he was not saved and needed to get saved! Paul said they needed to repent of their wrong thinking!

I grew up Jewish. I get what its like when religious people assume to know, and confuse "morality" for spirituality.

David was a mature believer when he committed adultery with Bathsheba. He also arranged to have her husband Uriah murdered in battle.
David was SAVED! Not pleasing the Lord at that point, but SAVED!

Religion takes over when grace is not understood,

 

[Arial]

The Lord is not going to bring forth good from a person's bad decision after bad decision after bad decision because they neglected to make the word their priority or refused correction. They will reap what they have sown and the Lord will not stop their own stupidity falling square upon their shoulders.

The passage does not say He will bring forth good from a person's bad decisions. That would not be Him working for good for them would it? It might be that what was good in that case would be to let them reap what they sow. And since He works for the good of those who love Him (and here we must assume the truth, that all in Christ do love Him) the very reaping what they sow, could in time drive them to their knees before Him again, having learned a very valuable thing.

 

[GeneZ]

Keeping in mind that Paul is speaking as a believer, not as an unbeliever.

So what was good in Paul? We know it was not his flesh.

What does God save?
The SOUL! The soul is not innately depraved!

The human soul was enslaved by the depraved slave master (the flesh) prior to the introduction of God's grace!
God's grace isolates the soul from the flesh as to allow the soul to make real choices.

After Salvation we are given the option to choose what controls us.
But, only by gaining knowledge of doctrine that is sound.
Before salvation, God drew us by grace, enabling at times for our soul to do its own thinking concerning truth being presented to us.

Sad to say. Some people have the temperament that is "naturally" moralistic. Self Righteous.
They assume if one is saved that they must be moral as evidence of having salvation.
In that case? A Tibetan monk can be seen as saved based upon their natural ability to be moral.

Self righteous people fail to see that unregenerate men of a certain temperament can live very moral lives.
Samson was immoral and very much saved!

 

[GeneZ]

Yes, but are you free from the sin natures effects? That was the question. And it was asked in response to this:

Don't you know that the Spirit is in us to control us so that our sin nature does not rule over our soul any longer?
But, many who follow wrong understanding end up modifying their behavior so that they can behave morally, yet
keep remaining unable to grasp spiritual matters as God would want them to?

​

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3​

There are many believers who choose what they like and want to believe.
Whatever suits their own bias and natural temperament is what usually determines
what denomination they will feel comfortable in.

Many will not tolerate sound doctrine because it demands that we deny self and take up our own cross as to become transformed into the image of Christ.... which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit using the accepted sound doctrinal teaching to transform us, to make us to become one with the Word of God.

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, ​

are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, ​

which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:18​

Self righteousness is a failure to be transformed, and finding a substitute as to give a sense of having strength.
Keep in mind. Having such a sense of strength is not the relaxed peaceful sense that God gives.
Not smugness. But being relaxed and peaceful inwardly though we may have pain in the body.
That GRACE only comes from the Spirit being satisfied with our understanding of God's Word in us.

 

[GeneZ]

The passage does not say He will bring forth good from a person's bad decisions. That would not be Him working for good for them would it?

I read what was said. You read what was said.

Here it is again.

The Lord is not going to bring forth good from a person's bad decision after bad decision after bad decision because they neglected to make the word their priority or refused correction. They will reap what they have sown and the Lord will not stop their own stupidity falling square upon their shoulders.

And, God will call them stupid.
Its God's term, as given in the Spirit.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1​

​

God will not work all things for the good concerning stupid believers!
Only for those who love Him. Those who will accept the corrections do love God.

 

[Arial]

I read what was said. You read what was said.

Here it is again.



And, God will call them stupid.
Its God's term, as given in the Spirit.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,​

but whoever hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1​

​

God will not work all things for the good concerning stupid believers!
Only for those who love Him. Those who will accept the corrections do love God.

The scripture does not say "for the good of." I gave the meaning of the scripture from God's perspective and you seem unable to get outside man's perspective. In fact it seems you were unable to absorb what I said and simply turned it back around to be saying what you think it says. At the root of your perspective is the idea of synergism and also of free will in choosing Christ. It seems those who adhere to that view derive all of their doctrine from that central issue. It is all us and all about us.

Of God creates some to give to Christ for His glory, then He does give them to Christ by grace and through faith. And if He does that then He, and He alone, not ourselves, preserves us in Christ. And all He does is for that good----not a bunch of blessings He will give us if we behave. That is not what is meant in that passage.

Your view also assumes that people can be in Christ and not love Him---that our love for Him is only and ever expressed in what we do or don't do, rather than existing in our heart and mind.

Of course God would not bless sinful behavior. He will correct it. If we do not listen, we begin to reap what we sow. And it is for good that we do this, otherwise we would think it was all just fine. How far we reap what we sow depends on when we are broken like a clay pot before we get the message. But we will break, and that is God preserving us, not we ourselves. And the harder our fall, the more we cling to Him. We come out the other side more dependant on God, stronger in our faith, letting go of dependance on ourselves, trusting Him more. We have grown spiritually through the fire, been refined.

Now tell me. Did God work our rebellious streak for our good? Or are you still thinking that passage is telling us what we can get from God and the formula for getting it?

 

[GeneZ]

Now tell me. Did God work our rebellious streak for our good? Or are you still thinking that passage is telling us what we can get from God and the formula for getting it?

This has become so beaten down.......

Mind copy and pasting the passage you are referring to?

I wish I could talk to you face to face...
It would solve 90% of the communication deficiency that this format causes.

And, resolve it. Right then and there.

 

[Arial]

Don't you know that the Spirit is in us to control us so that our sin nature does not rule over our soul any longer?

Where does the Bible say that the Spirit controls us? If He did we couldn't grieve Him. Do you ever sin? Well, when you do your sin nature ruled over you.

But, many who follow wrong understanding end up modifying their behavior so that they can behave morally, yet
keep remaining unable to grasp spiritual matters as God would want them to?

It isn't about modifying behavior. Gaining knowledge and understanding in spiritual matters is about growing in one's understanding of the word, with due diligence.

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3
There are many believers who choose what they like and want to believe.
Whatever suits their own bias and natural temperament is what usually determines
what denomination they will feel comfortable in.

So we are back to that which you seem to attach to everything sooner or later. Do you choose what you like to hear and want to believe? Do you do so because it suits your own bias and natural temperament? Do you start with that and then find it in the scriptures? You have said much in your many posts that are obviously unscriptural, and when you show those scriptures to me that you are using incorrectly, I have shown you where and how they are not. Do you listen? Do you check it against scripture with no bias? Or do you consider yourself to be the authority on the matter? You seem to be very critical of others and judgmental.

 

[Arial]

This has become so beaten down.......

Mind copy and pasting the passage you are referring to?

Romans 8:28

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose.

 

[GeneZ]

Where does the Bible say that the Spirit controls us? If He did we couldn't grieve Him. Do you ever sin? Well, when you do your sin nature ruled over you.

It tells us how to gain back that control after the sin of arrogance overwhelms our sensibilities, or some carnal sin grabs hold of us and we hug it back...

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:9-10

 

[sawdust]

Then they aren't believers Sawdust. Romans 5:1-5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through Him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hie does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Note how closely that relates to Romans 8 if you read the whole chapter instead of just pulling v 28 out and then describing "good" to determine what that passage is saying.

C'mon, give us a break. Have you not read the letters to the Churches in Revelation? Are you really going to sit there and try and tell me that every believer truly loves God? That every believer "rejoice in their sufferings"? That they have built a character that withstands picking up their Cross without them falling over the moment things don't go their way?

God's love is what produces the verse you quote but that does not automatically mean that love is reciprocated. We have to learn how to love God and most Christians have no idea how to love God even though they claim to have walked with Him most of their lives. Oh, they think they love God because they do this, that and the other and they get a nice warm fuzzy feel when they think on what He has done or get the opposite feeling when they think on their own sin but they have no real knowledge of what love is because they have no real knowledge of who God is. God is love! They run away at the first piece of opposition, fall apart as soon as anything remotely heavy is placed on their shoulders.

"You are the salt of the earth", yet our countries are falling apart at the seams. The Church is weak and pathetic and couldn't hold back a toddler from a candy store let alone the evil that mounts it's attacks today.

[edited ]

Have a good one.

 

[sawdust]

A church very often has a mixture of people who are saved and people who are merely religious. If you have any more than minimal experience, you should know this.

And the people who were saved, because the Lord referred to them as being His Church, were told He would vomit them out of His mouth. Wake up! These are people who are believers stop making excuses.

 

[sawdust]

The passage does not say He will bring forth good from a person's bad decisions. That would not be Him working for good for them would it? It might be that what was good in that case would be to let them reap what they sow. And since He works for the good of those who love Him (and here we must assume the truth, that all in Christ do love Him) the very reaping what they sow, could in time drive them to their knees before Him again, having learned a very valuable thing.

It keeps going over your head. Why are they making bad decisions in the first place??? If you love the Lord, it means you know Him, really know Him and you don't make bad decisions because His word and Spirit guides you in all you do and say.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

 

[Arial]

Believers can be terrible! Look at the young man in Corinth that was sleeping with his mother, and members of the church were boasting about it. Paul never said he was not saved and needed to get saved! Paul said they needed to repent of their wrong thinking!

I grew up Jewish. I get what its like when religious people assume to know, and confuse "morality" for spirituality.

David was a mature believer when he committed adultery with Bathsheba. He also arranged to have her husband Uriah murdered in battle.
David was SAVED! Not pleasing the Lord at that point, but SAVED!

Religion takes over when grace is not understood,

That had absolutely nothing to do with what I posted.

Seriously Gene, if that is what you want to talk about, start a thread on it. And learn to be specific instead of those sweeping generalizations you use that lead only to the conclusion that anyone who disagrees with your beliefs and your interpretations fall into the category of 2 Tim 4:3 (which apparently is the scripture of condemnation of those who meet with resistance and biblical pushback from those who disagree with them) and receive your sweeping unspecified judgement. You have made an utter train wreck of your own thread.

 

[GeneZ]

Romans 8:28

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose.

It says that many Christians made Paul weep over their flesh-lived, emotion-driven lives ...


Philippians 3:18-19

For I have often told you, and now say again with tears, that many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. ​

Their end is destruction; their god is their stomach; their glory is in their shame. They are focused on ​

earthly things."​

Meaning? To those believers their god was their 'emotions.'

Back then body parts were used by the ancients to describe what today we have specific words for when referring to feelings
and emotions.

Here is one obvious example of what I speak, concerning the ancient use of body parts to describe emotions....

“For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:8)​

In Philippians 3:18-19? Paul was speaking of believers who he said lived as enemies of the cross.

An unbeliever would not have been living as an enemy.

For an unbeliever would be an actual enemy of the cross!

I guarantee you.. Those believers Paul spoke of in Philippians 3:18-19?
They were not experiencing the benefits of Romans 8:28!

They were heading for the sin onto death.
For no grace peace would be granted for them in their dying!
"Their end is destruction."

In Christ ................

 

[GeneZ]

That had absolutely nothing to do with what I posted.

Sorry. Yes, it did!

For it was in response to what you said here:

Then they aren't believers

I then proceeded to show you how believers can be that terrible, and still be saved.

When I did that? You claimed I was changing the subject.

You do that a lot when you can not keep up with why something is being said in response.

It takes time .....

Actually.. It takes growing by grace in knowledge to have what is needed to connect the dots.

But, by keeping oneself locked down in man made dogma prevents the needed venturing out into growing in
what would be needed to mature in Christ. Which would be to come to know the love of God that causes us
to love God... not simply by emoting about God. But in coming to know because of all the sound doctrine He
wants to fill us with to become one with Him by means of the Spirit.

grace and peace .............