Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[GeneZ]

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Seriously.. You to think that can only apply to you, and those who agree with you... ?

That none of us who see some error in your thinking could possibly be having an unction from the Spirit..... ?

There is a reason believers are told to "test the spirits."
For a counterfeit unction will reign in too many these days.
For believer's who refuse correction to learn sound doctrine.
Such as these will make their emotions into their god.

God warned not to be guided by how we feel on a matter.
For how we feel can easily misguide us by inviting in the wrong spirit to lead us.

Isaiah 55:8 warns...

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,​

neither are your ways my ways,”​

declares the Lord." ​

How can you know his thoughts based upon how you think it should be?

Only those who are willing to mature in Christ will learn to accept the reality that they must be corrected a good many times along the way.

Only those who remain humbly will accept the (sometimes embarrassing) corrections to be granted the grace needed to mature.

We all have to go through it if we are being led into becoming mature in Christ.

grace and peace .............

 

[GeneZ]

So go ask Jesus in prayer today and expect an answer.

Abraham expected an answer and sired Ishmael.
So, don't demand that the Lord answer you immediately. Careful.

I have prayed for answers, and then faith rested it.
There were times when the Lord brought the answer to a prayer a year or so later.
But, it was the answer as I learned patience in the mean while.

Keep in mind.. Impatience can be a sign of grieving the Spirit.
And, other spirits will be glad to oblige with rationalized pseudo answers.

We need to learn the tactics of spiritual warfare.

 

[GeneZ]

But not a tail like a cedar which is a tree which to me, testify to the size and thus the length of the tail.

Job 40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

Really, that can not work with what Job states...

You seriously believe that a giant behemoth could hide among the reeds in marsh?
Having lotuses conceal it their shadow???


Job 40:15-22

​

“Look at Behemoth,​

which I made along with you​

and which feeds on grass like an ox.​

What strength it has in its loins,​

what power in the muscles of its belly!​

Its tail moves like a cedar;​

the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.​

Its bones are tubes of bronze,​

its limbs like rods of iron.​

It ranks first among the works of God,​

yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.​

The hills bring it their produce,​

and all the wild animals play nearby.​

Under the lotus plants it lies,​

hidden among the reeds in the marsh.​

The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;​

the poplars by the stream surround it."​

​

grace and peace ..............​

 

[ChristB4us]

Did you see in the video how rapid the cedar moves? Like a hippo's tail.

Depending on a windy day? What about a normal day?

But, a big cumbersome dinosaur long tail? That could never move so quickly.

Since they have become extinct at some point after the Biblical global flood, we have no idea how fast their tail would move.

Explain how a carving of a Stegosaurus found on an archway in a ruins if man had never seen a dinosaur?

Dinosaur of Ta Prohm

@sawdust

 

[ChristB4us]

Really, that can not work with what Job states...

You seriously believe that a giant behemoth could hide among the reeds in marsh?
Having lotuses conceal it their shadow???


Job 40:15-22

​

“Look at Behemoth,​

which I made along with you​

and which feeds on grass like an ox.​

What strength it has in its loins,​

what power in the muscles of its belly!​

Its tail moves like a cedar;​

the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.​

Its bones are tubes of bronze,​

its limbs like rods of iron.​

It ranks first among the works of God,​

yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.​

The hills bring it their produce,​

and all the wild animals play nearby.​

Under the lotus plants it lies,​

hidden among the reeds in the marsh.​

The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;​

the poplars by the stream surround it."​

​

grace and peace ..............​

Brontosaurus

Scroll down to a little bit more than half way down that web page and see the small art display to the right near the section entitled as "In popular culture ".

My point here is what we understand as marsh today as not being that deep, may somewhat alter our view of that scripture reading.

I am sure we can find reports of how deep some mashes are but even if those places are rare and far in between, which may explain their extinction , limiting it to the size of the hippo may be obscuring your application of the scripture as is.

@sawdust

 

[GeneZ]

Depending on a windy day? What about a normal day?

Please tell us.. What tree would move on a non windy day?

 

[ChristB4us]

Please tell us.. What tree would move on a non windy day?

Well, there is a nice breeze of a day and then there is a stormy as in a gust windy day.

So I reckon we have come to an impasse for which we both have made up our minds of what the behemoth is.

Have a blessed day.

 

[GeneZ]

Explain how a carving of a Stegosaurus found on an archway in a ruins if man had never seen a dinosaur?

Jeremiah 4:23-28: Jeremiah prophesized the coming destruction to the land of the degenerate, rebellious Jews.

Jeremiah did so by quoting Genesis 1:2. Why Genesis 1:2? Genesis 1:2 spoke of an utter destruction!

I learned from a professor of ancient languages something very important to understand about the passage.
It alluded to a prehistoric man expressed in a generic way. "Humanoid" might suffice.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.​

​

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.​

​

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.​

​

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were
broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.​

​

27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.​

​

28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it,
I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.​

All the prehistoric "humanoid/generic man" were destroyed! All...

That is where we find the bones of the Neanderthals..

 

[sawdust]

Depending on a windy day? What about a normal day?

Since they have become extinct at some point after the Biblical global flood, we have no idea how fast their tail would move.

Explain how a carving of a Stegosaurus found on an archway in a ruins if man had never seen a dinosaur?

Dinosaur of Ta Prohm

@sawdust

Are you serious? What do you think humanity will make of Jules Verne in a thousand years? You should have looked at some of the other carvings in that fresco. That man has an incredibly rich imagination is due to the creativity of our God.

Stop seeing things and pretending they are what you want them to be.

 

[GeneZ]

Brontosaurus

Scroll down to a little bit more than half way down that web page and see the small art display to the right near the section entitled as "In popular culture ".

My point here is what we understand as marsh today as not being that deep, may somewhat alter our view of that scripture reading.

I am sure we can find reports of how deep some mashes are but even if those places are rare and far in between, which may explain their extinction , limiting it to the size of the hippo may be obscuring your application of the scripture as is.

@sawdust

Still in denial.... The brontosaurus towered high over the reeds of any real marsh...

A marsh is - according to ecological definitions - a wetland that is dominated by herbaceous rather than woody plant species.
More in general, the word can be used for any low-lying and seasonally waterlogged terrain.

And a brontosaurus would have stood high above lotuses.
Hardly being concealing by them as Job spoke of! Impossible!

Under the lotus plants it lies,​

hidden among the reeds in the marsh.​

The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;​

the poplars by the stream surround it."​

denial ......

 

[ChristB4us]

Jeremiah 4:23-28: Jeremiah prophesized the coming destruction to the land of the degenerate, rebellious Jews.

Jeremiah did so by quoting Genesis 1:2. Why Genesis 1:2? Genesis 1:2 spoke of an utter destruction!

I learned from a professor of ancient languages something very important to understand about the passage.
It alluded to a prehistoric man expressed in a generic way. "Humanoid" might suffice.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.​

​

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.​

​

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.​

​

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were ​

broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.​

​

27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.​

​

28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, ​

I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.​

All the prehistoric "humanoid/generic man" were destroyed! All...

That is where we find the bones of the Neanderthals..

Well I can understand now why Strong's Concordance applied those definitions to those Hebrew words and why errant biblical scholars applied it from Strong's Concordance to Genesis 1:2, but they would be wrong. Due note that latter part of Jeremiah 4:23 is not found in Genesis 1:2.

I can discern that since the Lord explained the necessity for His fierce wrath on the land of Israel, by those words, would He had not done the same for the beginning in Genesis 1:1-2? Of course,

And so applying that judgment back then in Jeremiah 4:23 to Genesis 1:2 per your point of view after supposedly creating the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:2 WITHOUT explaining what had happened in Genesis 1:2 for why it is the way it is .... is found wanting.

Therefore there was no judgment in between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Genesis 1:1 was a generalized declaration of the truth and the following verses was how He did it which He concluded in Genesis 2:1-3 as resting on the seventh day.

To read in between the lines of His words between Genesis 1:1 & Genesis 1:2 without actually discerning the conclusion in Genesis 2:1-3 for how God did it all in Genesis 1:1 is adding to God's words and He has warned believer not to do that.

He cannot call the first day the actual first day if it was not really the beginning of His creation in His words. That would make God a liar which He is not. @sawdust

I thank you for sharing but I can see better now how everybody is wresting scriptures out of context taking the meaning of Jeremiah 4:23 which testified to His judgment and applying it between to Genesis 1:1 & Genesis 1:2 with God being negligent in speaking of judgment there. Indeed, in light of Christ, there is no glory to God for there to be destruction and death before creation week in the actual beginning.

The first day is the actual beginning of creation and believers should take God at His word.

 

[sawdust]

And so applying that judgment back then in Jeremiah 4:23 to Genesis 1:2 per your point of view after supposedly creating the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:2 WITHOUT explaining what had happened in Genesis 1:2 for why it is the way it is .... is found wanting.

And what makes you think God has to give us an explanation of everything He does? There's no mention in Genesis 1 of the angels yet does anyone think they were not created before us?

He has shown you how "tohu and bohu" is the result of judgement, not creation. Go and think on these things.

We agree, God is not a liar but nor is He obliged to inform you of all His works. You would do well to remember many truths were hidden and quite often because people were too stubborn to believe what was right under their noses.

 

[GeneZ]

Well I can understand now why Strong's Concordance applied those definitions to those Hebrew words and why errant biblical scholars applied it from Strong's Concordance to Genesis 1:2, but they would be wrong. Due note that latter part of Jeremiah 4:23 is not found in Genesis 1:2.

I can discern that since the Lord explained the necessity for His fierce wrath on the land of Israel, by those words, would He had not done the same for the beginning in Genesis 1:1-2? Of course,

And so applying that judgment back then in Jeremiah 4:23 to Genesis 1:2 per your point of view after supposedly creating the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:2 WITHOUT explaining what had happened in Genesis 1:2 for why it is the way it is .... is found wanting.

Therefore there was no judgment in between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Genesis 1:1 was a generalized declaration of the truth and the following verses was how He did it which He concluded in Genesis 2:1-3 as resting on the seventh day.

To read in between the lines of His words between Genesis 1:1 & Genesis 1:2 without actually discerning the conclusion in Genesis 2:1-3 for how God did it all in Genesis 1:1 is adding to God's words and He has warned believer not to do that.

He cannot call the first day the actual first day if it was not really the beginning of His creation in His words. That would make God a liar which He is not. @sawdust

I thank you for sharing but I can see better now how everybody is wresting scriptures out of context taking the meaning of Jeremiah 4:23 which testified to His judgment and applying it between to Genesis 1:1 & Genesis 1:2 with God being negligent in speaking of judgment there. Indeed, in light of Christ, there is no glory to God for there to be destruction and death before creation week in the actual beginning.

The first day is the actual beginning of creation and believers should take God at His word.

"Day One... of this creation."

It does not say....

"First Day ever."

 

[GeneZ]

Well I can understand now why Strong's Concordance applied those definitions to those Hebrew words and why errant biblical scholars applied it from Strong's Concordance to Genesis 1:2, but they would be wrong. Due note that latter part of Jeremiah 4:23 is not found in Genesis 1:2.

I can discern that since the Lord explained the necessity for His fierce wrath on the land of Israel, by those words, would He had not done the same for the beginning in Genesis 1:1-2? Of course,

And so applying that judgment back then in Jeremiah 4:23 to Genesis 1:2 per your point of view after supposedly creating the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:2 WITHOUT explaining what had happened in Genesis 1:2 for why it is the way it is .... is found wanting.

Therefore there was no judgment in between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

You are missing the meaning of things as stated by Jeremiah.
And, then you confused the issue with what your misreading tells you.

So, please..

Look at Jeremiah 4:25-27, again.

I looked, and there were no people;​

every bird in the sky had flown away.​

I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;​

all its towns lay in ruins​

before the Lord, before his fierce anger.​

​

This is what the Lord says:​

​

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely.​

Why did Jeremiah add that the Lord would not destroy their land completely?

grace and peace ..................

 

[ChristB4us]

And what makes you think God has to give us an explanation of everything He does? There's no mention in Genesis 1 of the angels yet does anyone think they were not created before us?

He has shown you how "tohu and bohu" is the result of judgement, not creation. Go and think on these things.

We agree, God is not a liar but nor is He obliged to inform you of all His works. You would do well to remember many truths were hidden and quite often because people were too stubborn to believe what was right under their noses.

How about how God created everything in the beginning and then described what He did that very first day as "the beginning" in according to His word?

And how about He concluded how He created everything in that creation week for why He rested on the 7th day?

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So God created the heavens that fourth day as it did not exist as the earth did not exist that very first day. Time was created i.e. that first day; hence the beginning.

God cannot say the heavens and the earth and all the host of them were finished that 6th day for Him to rest the 7th day if the heavens were there but their lights were hidden and the earth was there but a wasteland before that first day.

From the wasteland point of view, the heavens were there but the lights was not shining through the atmosphere on a wasteland earth, BUT why say the heavens and the earth were finished and all the host of them for Him to rest the seventh day if the 7th day was not really the 7th day, let alone the first day was not really being the very first day for the heavens and the earth to have been created in "the beginning"?

I leave this to God to cause the increase as I know certain teachings or train of scholarly thought can prevent believers from reading His words as it is written. Kind of like missing the forest for all the trees scenario when getting lost in translation of the overall message..

 

[ChristB4us]

"Day One... of this creation."

It does not say....

"First Day ever."

So the beginning was not really the beginning as the first day was not really the first day?

Ask yourself; were the heavens there with the earth in Genesis 1:2? If you apply Jeremiah 4:23 to Genesis 1:2, then the heavens were shining their lights on the earth but just not penetrating the upper atmosphere and the earth was a wasteland but covered by water.

That would not explain calling the first day as the very first day as there was evening and morning that day as if there was no evening and morning before that. See? For the heavens to be there, then the solar system was; and the sun and the moon, and so how can there be no evening and morning before that first day? Why call the first day the first day if there was evening and morning before that first day?

So the first day was the establishment of the beginning in regards to time as there evening and morning that first day.

The earth was starting to be created the 2nd day as a water planet with an upper atmosphere. God finished creating the earth the third day, teaming with plant life.

Then the fourth day, God created the heavens for the purpose of her lights governing the earth for signs, times, & seasons. That means there was no heavens before that fourth day and no lights shining upon the earth before that day.

That is why God concluded with genesis 2:1-3 the way that He did.

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So while biblical scholars hem and haw the Hebrew meaning with created and formed and made, they ignored how God created & made in Genesis 2:3 for how God rested on that 7th day from when God created the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1.

 

[ChristB4us]

You are missing the meaning of things as stated by Jeremiah.
And, then you confused the issue with what your misreading tells you.

So, please..

Look at Jeremiah 4:25-27, again.

I looked, and there were no people;​

every bird in the sky had flown away.​

I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;​

all its towns lay in ruins​

before the Lord, before his fierce anger.​

​

This is what the Lord says:​

​

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely.​

Why did Jeremiah add that the Lord would not destroy their land completely?

grace and peace ..................

You are conflating the event of God's judgment in Jeremiah with creation in Genesis and you should not do that.

The Greek word "pneuma" means spirit and it can be defined by how it is used in the verse in the context of the message given because pneuma is not always referring to the Holy Spirit.

From Strong's Concordance; "from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590."

So just because Strong's Concordance and Biblical scholars used Jeremiah 4:23 as a template for defining the words in Genesis 1:2, you should consider that as an error to do, because there is no way scripture was inferring that meaning at all for the beginning to start at the first day, but it wasn't really the first day and not really the beginning when He created the heavens and the earth but Genesis 2:1-3 says He did for why He rested on the 7th day from all that God has created and made..

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

 

[GeneZ]

So the beginning was not really the beginning as the first day was not really the first day?

That may explain why the Hebrew (when exegeted) will be saying....

1~~In the beginning which was not a beginning {eternity past}, Elohiym/Godhead ​

created out of nothing {bara'} the heavens and the planet earth."​

Here is someone who saw the same paradox in the Hebrew wording...
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....ng-vs-in-the-beginning-different-implications

And, this one too...
https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~dberry/FTP_SITE/reprints.journals.conferences/Berry2003JBQGenesisPaper.pdf

 

[GeneZ]

You are conflating the event of God's judgment in Jeremiah with creation in Genesis and you should not do that.

The Greek word "pneuma" means spirit and it can be defined by how it is used in the verse in the context of the message given because pneuma is not always referring to the Holy Spirit.

From Strong's Concordance; "from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590."

So just because Strong's Concordance and Biblical scholars used Jeremiah 4:23 as a template for defining the words in Genesis 1:2, you should consider that as an error to do, because there is no way scripture was inferring that meaning at all for the beginning to start at the first day, but it wasn't really the first day and not really the beginning when He created the heavens and the earth but Genesis 2:1-3 says He did for why He rested on the 7th day from all that God has created and made..

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Could you please answer my question?


Look at Jeremiah 4:25-27, again.

I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.
I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the Lord, before his fierce anger.

This is what the Lord says:

“The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely.​

Why did Jeremiah need to add that the Lord would not destroy their land completely?

Try answering, please, before asking more questions without answering. Thanks.

 

[GeneZ]

You are conflating the event of God's judgment in Jeremiah with creation in Genesis and you should not do that.

I was not conflating. You would have to say that Jeremiah was.

But, Jeremiah had good reason.

For the Jews who heard Jeremiah? They knew what the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1 meant.
It was their 'native tongue."

Jeremiah needed to add for a reason ..

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely.​

He needed to add those words because the Hebrew in Genesis 1:1, to their Hebrew thinking minds?
It indicated the earth in Genesis 1:1 was found in utter ruin!
That's why!

If Jeremiah did not add that God would not destroy completely?
It would have meant that the Jewish race and Israel would have been wiped from the face of the earth!
Those who spoke Hebrew, they knew that is what "tohu was bohu" meant.

This requires objective thinking.

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely.​

In Christ....