Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[ChristB4us]

I guess since I asked for a number and no number was given.

1. There is death where the body dies, a person dies physically (Jms. 2:26).
2. There is death where one is dead in transgression or sin (Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13).
3. There is dead in Christ (1 Thes. 4:16).
4. There is dead to sin (Rom. 6:11).

That is four different types of death. There are a few more that have to do with different types of death on the other side of the grave, most of which are based on the myths of the surrounding cultures used in the Bible (like hades, tartarus, elysium, etc.), but for the purposes of this thread these four will suffice. Notice there is no "spiritual death" stated in the Bible. It's a commonly used phrase in preaching/teaching but scripture never uses it.

But your later questions in that post was based on coming from Adam's point of view about what you think Adam knew about death or the consequence of that prohibition. It was that premise that I was addressing rather the questions you had put forth from it. Here it is again;

"As to this one question, the answer is the were mortal and the prohibition was meaningful. " ~~~ end of quote

I would say that if they were mortal as coming from Adam's point of view, the prohibition would not be meaningful because he was going to age and die anyway if he was really mortal.

Going off of those 4 kinds of death, seems like it is veering off topic about Adam's knowledge of what he had thought death was in regards to that prohibition. Granted, interesting points about the 4 different types of death, but not really addressing Adam's point of view.

The next quote does which you will note, does not address all of the 4 kinds of death you had listed.

God told Adam that the day he ate the forbidden fruit he would die, but Adam was still alive after eating the fruit. He did not physically die that day so either God made a mistake, or was lying, or God was referring to a death other than physical death. As @GeneZ has correctly observed, the Hebrew says, "dying you will die," and some people interpret that to mean Adam began to die physically that day and it simply took him many hundreds of yours to finally expire. I think that takes extreme liberty with the meaning of "day." and better view is to understand he was dead in sin while still being very much alive physically, breathing air and pumping blood. Dying, he was dead. Having been sown mortal he was dying physically but while still breathing air and pumping blood he was dead in sin.

I believe God cited a double consequence for eating the forbidden fruit as dying of old age a physical death, he will die a second death as well as "in dying, ye shall die". God is life. All that is God is good, and so sin drives us away from God and all that is life and good and so that second death was also the consequence for why those that do not take the way out by believing in Him, are going to the afterlife hell, and soon after that, the lake of fire.

The only person to have ever physically died while still sinless is Jesus.

Jesus was sinless when He went to the cross, but He took our sins upon Himself for why and how He had experienced that separation from the Father and how creation reacted to the Creator taking our sins upon Himself in redeeming us on the cross when the light of the full moon and the sun went out for 3 hours of darkness, as well as when the earthquake had rocked the region, if not the world.

If Adam had died physically while not dead in sin then we can presume that event would be different than his dying physically while dead in sin but one of the things that cannot be assumed is he would have made his way to the Father apart from Christ (Jn. 14:6). As I put it in another post, if he dies physically while also dead in sin he is twice-dead: dead physically and dead in sin. That's bad news. He's off to the fiery lake if he dies dead in sin . But! if a person has disobeyed God and is thereby dead in sin and he later comes to believe in Jesus as his Lord and Savior then having previously been dead in sin he is now dead in Christ, and being dead in Christ he is also dead to sin. Having been dead in sin he is dead to sin if he is also dead in Christ. When that guy dies he is quadruple-dead! Whereas the twice-dead guy goes off to the fiery lake the four-times dead guy goes off to eternal life. He is raised incorruptible and immortal never to die dead in sin or dead physically ever again.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

However, there is condemnation to saved believers if they do walk after the flesh; hence if they do not look to Him for help to depart from iniquity, they will get left behind to die at the pre great tribulation rapture event, but their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven because that foundations remains as that seal of adoption does, even for former believers as they are still saved, but they will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, as vessels of wood & earth but still in His House, serving the king of kings on earth.

So we see there is more than one or two types of death.

I may not see as you see, but in regards to the prohibition towards Adam, only 2 deaths is involved here where the hope provided by the Lord for that promised seed involves that seed paying the ransom for Adam and all those that would believe in Him by His grace & by His help since Adam's sin was not believing God at His word for why he had hearkened unto the woman's word in sinning.

Trust is the basis for all relationships and so we are reconciled when He enables us to trust Him at His word again.

Keep in mind God is the God of both the living and the dead and that's very important when answering the question asked in this op.

Okay, but somewhen along the way the topic was about Adam's point of view in what he took that prohibition to mean.

When it comes to resurrection, there is no death unless a person has first lived and there is no resurrection unless there is first a death. So a person must first live, then die, and then be resurrected. That is exactly what Jesus did. It is what Hebrews 9:27 tells us all will do. It has been appointed for every person to die once and then face judgment (which death? ). Every gets raised. Everyone gets judged. Those not in Christ get raised to eternal destruction and those in Christ get raised to eternal life (Gal. 6:8).

It is my understanding that saved believers that did not depart from iniquity and/ or were unwilling to leave this world when the Bridegroom comes, will be left behind to die and then resurrected after the great tribulation BUT with the second death having no power over them which suggests the power of the first death does as in physically dying for why they are to eat from the tree of life in that City of God.

However, as they marry and reign with Christ as kings and priests, the generations following them are subjected to the first & second death as many will join the devil once he has been released from the pit for a small season after Christ's thousand year reign.

No, you didn't, and it was a fairly easy question to answer.

Well, I was trying to continue the actual discussion we were having from Adam's point of view, or at least I had thought I was when it seems like you were going off topic from that part of the conversation for why I was trying to keep back on it in proving Adam was not mortal.

Bye

Sorry if I was abrupt & rude but I really did not see those later questions as immediately relevant to what we were discussing about Adam's point of view of what die meant in that day on the basis of he was mortal or immortal. For His words to be true, he started dying that day and so aging to die suggests that his mortality began in that day after eating the forbidden fruit as in after eating it, in dying, ye shall surely die thus referring to the first and second death to wit afterwards, God cursed the serpent to provide hope for Adam & Eve and fallen mankind.

 

[ChristB4us]

Adam did not have eternal life when created. If he did? He could not die.

There is a celestial body and then there is the terrestrial body.

I believe Adam & Eve were not mortal until the fall because that was how death came by Adam's sin, both physical and spiritual.

Even the animals await the manifestations of the sons of God since sin coming unto the world because of Adam, affected them and all of creation too in bringing decay & physical death to them.

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Adam only had a day to day contract with God as long as he did not eat the junk food.

After redemption, he landed in a better place. Eternal life.

Did you know in the Great White Throne Judgment, every dead shall be raised up and judged? Sounds like the are having eternal life, but with a catch; those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life, are cast into the lake of fire to burn with Satan & his angels whom also happens to be immortal for why they will burn in torment for all eternity.

It is not unreasonable nor unBiblical that Adam and Eve were immortal terrestrial wise before the fall.

 

[GeneZ]

There is a celestial body and then there is the terrestrial body.

I believe Adam & Eve were not mortal until the fall because that was how death came by Adam's sin, both physical and spiritual.

Now I see what you're saying....

So, Adam could not die, until he could die?

Right?

Why are these points being argued over?

Its a "dead" issue.

 

[Josheb]

But your later questions in that post was based on coming from Adam's point of view about what you think Adam knew about death or the consequence of that prohibition.

No, they are not.


Since this problem of incorrect attribution seems to be reoccurring let me say this: I am quite capable of articulating my own views and doing so clearly so they can be understood by all. There is never and warrant for assuming things about my posts that aren't in the post and it is always bad practice to put words into another posters posts they did not write. On the occasion I have left something out or not made my position(s) clear it always more effective to ask for clarity rather than assume you know another's mind, intent, purpose, etc.

No, I was not basing anything I have posted based on coming from Adam's point of view and what I think Adam knew. It was a very foolish, baseless, and incorrect assumption that does not help the conversation one bit and should never have been posted.

Next time, ask, do not assume.

 

[Josheb]

However, there is condemnation to saved believers if they do walk after the flesh; hence if they do not look to Him for help to depart from iniquity, they will get left behind to die at the pre great tribulation rapture event, but their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven because that foundations remains as that seal of adoption does, even for former believers as they are still saved, but they will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, as vessels of wood & earth but still in His House, serving the king of kings on earth.

I may not see as you see, but in regards to the prohibition towards Adam, only 2 deaths is involved here where the hope provided by the Lord for that promised seed involves that seed paying the ransom for Adam and all those that would believe in Him by His grace & by His help since Adam's sin was not believing God at His word for why he had hearkened unto the woman's word in sinning.

Trust is the basis for all relationships and so we are reconciled when He enables us to trust Him at His word again.

Okay, but somewhen along the way the topic was about Adam's point of view in what he took that prohibition to mean.

It is my understanding that saved believers that did not depart from iniquity and/ or were unwilling to leave this world when the Bridegroom comes, will be left behind to die and then resurrected after the great tribulation BUT with the second death having no power over them which suggests the power of the first death does as in physically dying for why they are to eat from the tree of life in that City of God.

However, as they marry and reign with Christ as kings and priests, the generations following them are subjected to the first & second death as many will join the devil once he has been released from the pit for a small season after Christ's thousand year reign.

Well, I was trying to continue the actual discussion we were having from Adam's point of view, or at least I had thought I was when it seems like you were going off topic from that part of the conversation for why I was trying to keep back on it in proving Adam was not mortal.

Should I expect the specific comments and inquiries I posted to be addressed or not?

What would happen at the end of the fall when a pre-disobedient Adam fell off a cliff? Would the impact kill him or not?

Sorry if I was abrupt & rude....

Do better. Do better because the new set of inquiries wasn't answered, either. Despite the report of "sorry," the problem persists. Now you look insincere, and I'll bet that was not intended. It's very easy: Make it right. Just answer the question asked.


What would happen at the end of the fall when a pre-disobedient Adam fell off a cliff? Would the impact kill him or not?

 

[GeneZ]

No, they are not.


Since this problem of incorrect attribution seems to be reoccurring let me say this: I am quite capable of articulating my own views and doing so clearly so they can be understood by all. There is never and warrant for assuming things about my posts that aren't in the post and it is always bad practice to put words into another posters posts they did not write. On the occasion I have left something out or not made my position(s) clear it always more effective to ask for clarity rather than assume you know another's mind, intent, purpose, etc.

No, I was not basing anything I have posted based on coming from Adam's point of view and what I think Adam knew. It was a very foolish, baseless, and incorrect assumption that does not help the conversation one bit and should never have been posted.

Next time, ask, do not assume.

Would you mind clarifying this then?

Since this problem of incorrect attribution seems to be reoccurring let me say this: I am quite capable of articulating my own views and doing so clearly so they can be understood by all. There is never and warrant for assuming things about my posts that aren't in the post and it is always bad practice to put words into another posters posts they did not write.

What does that mean? "There is never and warrant"

That came right after this... "I am quite capable of articulating my own views and doing so clearly so they can be understood by all."

I am missing something in your clear articulation apparently....

 

[GeneZ]

Should I expect the specific comments and inquiries I posted to be addressed or not?

What would happen at the end of the fall when a pre-disobedient Adam fell off a cliff? Would the impact kill him or not?

Nothing to harm nor hurt Adam appeared until after the fall.

Genesis 3:17-18


To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree ​

about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.​

 

[Josheb]

Nothing to harm nor hurt Adam appeared until after the fall.

Genesis 3:17-18​

​

​

To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree ​

about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’​

​

“Cursed is the ground because of you;​

through painful toil you will eat food from it​

all the days of your life.​

It will produce thorns and thistles for you,​

and you will eat the plants of the field.​

Avoidant and fallacious construction error. Just because one event is specified does not mean others did not exist.

 

[GeneZ]

Avoidant and fallacious construction error. Just because one event is specified does not mean others did not exist.

Says you...
But, not the Word of God.

I believe the Word of God.

“Cursed is the ground because of you;

The ground was not cursed prior.

 

[Josheb]

Says you...
But, not the Word of God.

I believe the Word of God.

“Cursed is the ground because of you;

The ground was not cursed prior.

The opportunity to discuss this politely and respectfully was provide and refused.

 

[GeneZ]

The opportunity to discuss this politely and respectfully was provide and refused.

Its not trolling... Its getting your nose back into the Word of God which you refused to acknowledge.

Instead... You set up rules to hide behind when you can not face your errors.

What ever happened to.... Luke 9:23?

23 And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

23 Then he said to the crowd, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross daily, and follow me.

Jesus (the Word of God) is not going to pamper you!
We need to take up our cross if we are to follow the Word of God.

He is the Word of God!

 

[ChristB4us]

Now I see what you're saying....

So, Adam could not die, until he could die?

Right?

Why are these points being argued over?

Its a "dead" issue.

If you still believe there was life before creation week, as if the dinosaurs had existed before mankind in according to that false science, the evolution theory, then it is not really a dead issue. It is a matter of faith in Jesus Christ.

Sin brought decay and death into the world for which Adam is responsible for. If death was in the world before creation week, and thus not because of Adam's sin, then how can anyone know death in the physical and the spiritual has truly been defeated by Jesus Christ?

You can't. Either sin brought death & decay into creation is responsible for separating us from God and life and all that is good, or death is not the result of sin and so how can anyone know if it comes by some other way besides sin in separating us from God and life and all that is good?

 

[GeneZ]

If you still believe there was life before creation week, as if the dinosaurs had existed before mankind in according to that false science, the evolution theory, then it is not really a dead issue. It is a matter of faith in Jesus Christ.

It was not evolution.
It was a previous creation God placed on earth.

Just like he will do once more in the future!

God did it before! And, God will do it again! Its not evolution!


Isaiah 65:17-20
New King James Version

17
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18
But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19
I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

20
“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

Its not EVOLUTION!

25
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the Lord.

 

[ChristB4us]

It was not evolution.
It was a previous creation God placed on earth.

There is no scripture testifying to previous creation prior to creation week otherwise the first day can hardly be the truth in that creation week.

Just because He will do it in the future, does not mean He has done it before creation week.

 

[GeneZ]

There is no scripture testifying to previous creation prior to creation week otherwise the first day can hardly be the truth in that creation week.

Just because He will do it in the future, does not mean He has done it before creation week.

You really believe God fit all the dinosaurs on the Ark?

Destroying one world to be replaced by another is God's ongoing modus operandi...
He creates a new world to replace the one no longer needed.

I am assuming that you have not been shown the Hebrew meaning of Genesis 1:2.

God did not create the earth to be "tohu wa bohu"
He did not create it as a chaotic mess and having an eerie sense of emptiness lingering about it,
like a haunted house in decay.

It might do you good to learn the following truth before making up your mind.

The Invisible War - Dr.Donald Grey Barnhouse
https://www.christianbook.com/invisible-war-the-donald-barnhouse/9780310204817/pd/020481X
Look at the reader comments here:
https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-War-Continuing-Barnhouse-September/dp/B01BRUXQ1Q

WITHOUT FORM AND VOID - Arthur C. Custance
https://custance.org/Library/WFANDV/index.html

CREATION, CHAOS, AND RESTORATION - R.B. Thieme Jr.
https://rbthieme.org/Publications/creationchaosandrestoration.html



.....

 

[ChristB4us]

You really believe God fit all the dinosaurs on the Ark?

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. 16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. 17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. 18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

Tell me what you read as described as the behemoth.

Now for breeds of certain animals, some are by twos and some are by sevens.

For dogs, I am not sure where they fall under; the twos or by the sevens but you can get a variety of dogs from that.

For the dinosaurs, they can take young ones aboard. Not that hard to figure out. How many different kinds were they? Doesn't matter since God saved the animal kingdom enough to be on the ark.

Destroying one world to be replaced by another is God's ongoing modus operandi...
He creates a new world to replace the one no longer needed.

I am assuming that you have not been shown the Hebrew meaning of Genesis 1:2.

God did not create the earth to be "tohu wa bohu"
He did not create it as a chaotic mess and having an eerie sense of emptiness lingering about it,
like a haunted house in decay.

It might do you good to learn the following truth before making up your mind.

The Invisible War - Dr.Donald Grey Barnhouse
https://www.christianbook.com/invisible-war-the-donald-barnhouse/9780310204817/pd/020481X
Look at the reader comments here:
https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-War-Continuing-Barnhouse-September/dp/B01BRUXQ1Q

WITHOUT FORM AND VOID - Arthur C. Custance
https://custance.org/Library/WFANDV/index.html

CREATION, CHAOS, AND RESTORATION - R.B. Thieme Jr.
https://rbthieme.org/Publications/creationchaosandrestoration.html
.....

I am familiar with the notion that readers take "the earth was without form and void" as if meaning a wasteland when they should consider it as non-existent in verse 2. One should read verse 1 as the topic and the following verses in how God did verse 1.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

What was created the very first day? The very first day. Time. The very beginning. The light to signify the day and the darkness night as there was evening and morning that day and every day after that.

Earth did not exist. All that was there was water.

The second day was the beginning of the creation of earth as a water planet with an upper atmosphere.

The third day was the creation of land with fruit bearing plant life thus finishing the creation of planet earth.

The fourth day was the creation of the sun, the moon, and the stars. That means there was no heaven and earth in day one. How can you have a pre-existing earth if there was no heaven?

Now scriptures was not originally divided up in numbered chapters and numbered verses and so what God did in Genesis 1:1 and the verses following it is how God did it in verse one, which did not conclude until Genesis 2:1-3. Note how that verse one in chapter 2 begins.

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Genesis 2:1-3 is God concluding how He did it in Genesis 1:1.

There was no life, no earth and no heavens before creation week as there was none that first day when time was created to establish the very beginning by that light.

 

[GeneZ]

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. 16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. 17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. 18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

Tell me what you read as described as the behemoth.

Keep in mind. While under testing Job was seeing the past by God's grace like a prophet would.

Just look at Job 38.
Job was having us bear witness to the creation of our planet!
Was Job there? No more than Moses was present when giving Genesis One.

All the angels' eyes and ears were being glued to Job's testimony.
For Satan had made a wager with the Lord. One that he would prove he would get Job to curse God to his face!

And, while Job was under such intense and painful scrutiny? God gave Job insight into the prehistoric past.
A past event that angels were fully aware of having happened.
Thus, sending a signal to the angels that God's Spirit was with and working through Job!

Moses and Job... and other prophets saw past events that they were not alive to see in their day.
And, even saw future events yet to be realized!

Because when its all by means of the Holy Spirit working there is no limit in being past, present, or future!

We need to grow to learn beyond the surface, to know the depths of God's Word!

​

Ephesians 3:16-19​

​

​

That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might ​

through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, ​

being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the ​

width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; ​

that you may be filled with all the fullness of God."​

It says God wants all the saints to be able to comprehend when insights come..(depth) not just for a select few.
For its God's grace that makes us able to see and comprehend what God has for all of us to know.

Therefore.. Our learning is not to be human IQ dependent. Its to be 'Spirit filled" enabling grace that makes us to see.
Some need to realize that though they may have been poor students when in school in their younger years? That by God's grace
there is nothing we can not grasp and comprehend in God's plan He wishes to reveal to His body while on earth.

A Spirit filled humble believer of average human IQ can become a genius in regards to the comprehension of God's Word,
while leaving someone with human genius who is grieving the Spirit, to be as the one who is mentally challenged.

God's grace is the Perfect equalizer for learning amongst his saints!

​

... may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is ​

the width and length and depth and height ....​

​

No one who perseveres is to be left out in their comprehension!​

​

Our self limiting old self image must become transformed by the Spirit.​

​

​

... to comprehend with all the saints ....​

​

(all levels of human IQ being together in grace comprehension)​

​

​

.........​

 

[ChristB4us]

Keep in mind. While under testing Job was seeing the past by God's grace like a prophet would.

And yet the behemoth that God was describing as saying He made the behemoth with man.

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee;...

So the dinosaurs existed with mankind since creation.

 

[sawdust]

And yet the behemoth that God was describing as saying He made the behemoth with man.

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee;...

So the dinosaurs existed with mankind since creation.

Depends on translation.

Some translate that verse as the following (or similar) which gives a different meaning, reading that both man and behemoths are created by God not necessarily at the same time.

RSV Job;40:15
“Behold, Be′hemoth, which I made as I made you; he eats grass like an ox.

 

[GeneZ]

And yet the behemoth that God was describing as saying He made the behemoth with man.

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee;...

So the dinosaurs existed with mankind since creation.

I had the Leviathan in the next chapter in mind.

Chapter 40 is about a hippo. They are fierce and huge animals.

A hippo sways his tail like a cedar... And, is a herbivore.

40:15 “Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins, what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.