Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[sawdust]

No difference in creating the finished product vs creating this whole temporal universe in which we lived and Christ died.

Ok I see what you're saying now. I'm not sure whether the lack of difference to God (if any) has any application/relevance to His plan as His plan is for His creation and what His creation must learn from it.

 

[sawdust]

lol.

Think it through. Christ is not an angel, and angels are not Christ. You're still dodging the facts in evidence: I can actually provide a pile of scripture for the views expressed and you either cannot or have not. Were the two arguments listed side by side one column would include a list of assertions, most of which come accompanied with explicit statements in scripture (not eisegetically inferred interpretations of scripture), and on the other side a dissent lacking scripture.

• I can list and have listed scriptures stating Adam was created good, unashamed, and sinless.
• I can list and have listed scriptures providing a timeline for the fall of both angels and humans.
• I can list and have listed scriptures citing the many reasons or purposes for Jesus' life, death, resurrection, and ascension.
• I can list and have listed scriptures indicating sin is not the only reason for Jesus' incarnation.
• I can list and have listed scriptures stating humans are created in God's image (twice: once in creation and again in Christ).
• I can list and have listed scriptures stating some humans are raised incorruptible and immortal.
• I can list and have listed scriptures stating the end of the angels who sinned is death, not incorruptible life eternal.
• I have argued for God's omni-attributes, sovereignty, and immutability using these where others have argued positions logically dictating a God who has to make contingency plans and is not immutable.

As far as I have read in the entire thread, I'm the only one addressing the problem of God's dependency on sin if He his only plan for creation is addressing the fall of humanity. As far as I can see, there's not only a huge silence in response to this, but there's also a blind spot that hasn't recognized the problem. There is, likewise, a significant lack of scripture in your dissent and a recurring refusal to acknowledge my ability to meet your challenges with scripture.

Any objective comparison between my case and yours objectively shows what I have posted is comparatively more scriptural, more whole-scripture and less eisegetically selective, more exegetically sound, and more logically rational. There's also something else going on here because in response to your inquiries I have provided valid replies and not a single one of them have been acknowledged. I cannot walk with you through the points of agreement because you've refused to say, "Ah, yeah, that's correct. I can see that." So here's a test:



Say it: Jesus did come to raise some incorruptible and immortal.


Just say it.

If refusing to do so, then ask yourself why I would bother to trade posts who will not acknowledge a truth that simple preferring a scriptureless dissent.




Go back through the case I have presented and make a list of things with which you agree. Then post that list. Stop making this all about points of disagreement and build through consensus. Make the list. Witchcraft, sorcery, immorality are easy to see. The lesser works of the flesh get overlooked.....

Galatians 5:19-21 ESV
Now the works of the flesh are evident: .....enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions............ and things like these.

It's any easy route, but according to scripture, those who post only strife, disputes, rivalry, dissensions, division.... are working from the flesh. The solution is easy: affirm scripture.

So, say it: Jesus did come to raise some incorruptible and immortal.

...and make the list of points where we have agreement. Give me a reason to continue with you.


.

You've gone completely off base from what I originally asked. To be honest, you're starting to sound creepy with your demanding I say something I never disagreed with in the first place and patting yourself on the back like you did in this post, just goes against everything I learnt about humility.

Best we part ways. Have a nice day.

 

[GeneZ]

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."

Eating the tree of life would cause them to live forever. What else does scripture explicitly declare can make a human live forever? If the answer is, "Nothing," then what I have already covered about A&E needing the tree of life in BOTH their good and sinless states AND their not-good and sinful states is necessarily true and the onus is on you, not me, to prove they were inherently immortal, and nothing could kill them.

The problem with the Tree of Life was that if Adam and the woman ate in their fallen state? Then they would live forever with fallen bodies.
That way their sins could never be paid for. God in his wisdom in decreeing that fallen men should die physically, was guaranteeing that the sins Jesus were to bear on the Cross would be finite in number. In that way? Jesus could declare from the Cross.. "It is finished!"

God held off on granting Adam and the woman eternal life (as He always intended for man) until the mess that Satan and his fallen angels caused would be eliminated. Eliminated by the Atonement of the Cross!

 

[ChristB4us]

Let's review this.

First, the fact that the prohibition not to eat would be meaningless if they were not mortal.

Is that the same as saying the prohibition not to eat would be meaningful if they were mortal?

God did not say, "You are currently immortal but you will become mortal if you disobey Me." That is an assumption on the naysayer's part, not mine.

Seeing how the consequence is that they will die, your reasoning is hard to follow.

Second, the fact immortal creatures do not need a tree of life to be immortal has also already been covered.

Yeah.. okay... seeing how I was only replying to the initial two posts rather than the whole pages in this thread and so no, you and I have not covered it. I can accept that you do not care to repeat yourself even though I skipped over ten pages of the conversation between you & the other poster. Seems like at the onset is why I was replying as the premise for your discussion seems off which was what I was addressing.

But in reply to your comment, my reference to those that need to eat from the tree of life were not of the firstfruit of the resurrection and so if you were meaning that those resurrected after the great tribulation are immortal, and those following them in the coming generations as well, then explain this below.

Revelation 22:1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Revelation 2:1-7 KJV In the letter to the church at Ephesus, those that do not repent, He will overcome for them for why this reward awaits them in verse 7 for why they shall be resurrected after the great tribulation, even though they did not repent for why they were left behind.

The last thing God said before kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden was,

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."

Eating the tree of life would cause them to live forever. What else does scripture explicitly declare can make a human live forever? If the answer is, "Nothing," then what I have already covered about A&E needing the tree of life in BOTH their good and sinless states AND their not-good and sinful states is necessarily true and the onus is on you, not me, to prove they were inherently immortal, and nothing could kill them.

Consider Satan in how he has fallen and lives forever. God wanted to prevent that from them living forever in sin and thus judged forever as condemned to the lake of fire to be apart from God and all that is good forever. Hence no chance for redemption nor reconciliation.

So they were not going to die until they had fallen in sin.

Furthermore....

If Adam had fallen off of a cliff that was 2,000 feet above the ground below would he have died or not? In other words, was the law of gravity at work in Eden? What about when he left Eden to go subdue the earth? Would the otherwise normal laws of physics applied? I Adam was cutting down a tree and it happened to fall on him crushing him by its weight, would he have died, or would it have been absolutely impossible for a tree to fall on Adam?

Before taking the bite of the forbidden fruit? He would not die, but then again, on the other hand, how can accidents happen in a perfect world? Since Adam & Eve were immortal that they could not die, then by His words, nothing could kill them, and that includes all living things too as they were not eating meat from animals or fishes but getting their meats from herbs as originally created.

Ot let's look at the otherwise normal process of the plants God created producing according to their own kind. A stalk of corn grows and produces ears of corn and then those ears of corn are harvested, the stalk dies, and then are either eaten or the kernels planted to produce new stalks of corn. In your version of the predisobedient world do the stalks never die and they continue unendingly to produce ears without ever dying? When the kernel is planted how does it produce a new corn stalk. Scripture says unless a seed dies it remains only a seed but if it dies it produces fruit. (Jn. 12:24). Did none of that exist? Were there never any storms that cause a plant or bush or tree to blow over? If it blew over did it die or did it continue to grow? What replenished the soil with organic material ALL plants need to live and grow and propagate?

Do plants have souls? No. Since the plants were created to feed them; one has to wonder if God foreordained the fall for how they were to eat them even as mortals, including the animals until the global flood where then the flesh of animals & fishes will be meat for the man.

I can list hundreds of scenarios like the above. We could literally spend every day for months debating different scenarios that would otherwise ordinarily be lethal unless you can prove the earth was a magical place where the rules of physics were different then than now.

By His words the heavens and the earth were created and it was good, and the scenarios you are coming up with are due to your observation in a sin fallen world.

Because the moment you concede ANY of that you must then acknowledge death existed in the world prior to Genesis 3:6-7.

I do not concede,

My rendering of 1 Cor 15 was not wrong.

When you overlook the earlier reference in that same chapter for how death came by Adam, is why I say you are not aligning everything in the scripture.

No, they were made mortal. Immortal creatures cannot become mortal. They are, by definition, not subject to death.

And so you made His warning meaningless. See how that works?

Genesis 2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And you have thereby made God dependent on sin.

That is your conclusion as a I see it as a desperate measure to prove that there can be no other conclusion.

And stow the eschatological baggage. This op is about the answer to one question: Why did God plan for the fall?

If Adam & Eve had never sinned from the onset, think that serpent would have tempted one of the offsprings to sin? The point is, what we are learning now by His grace & by His help; that there is nothing good outside of God & His will. Eve was not warned by God about that tree. Only Adam conveyed to her what God had told him. That is why Satan went to Eve to sow doubt what God had told Adam. this is why Adam is cursed for hearkening unto the woman because he knew better for having heard that warning from God Himself. Adam doubted His words thus he did not believe Him when he had hearkened unto the woman.

Now we are saved by the Father's work enabling us to believing in Jesus Christ by revealing His Son to us so we can; John 6:44 & Matthew 11:25-27. The glory of God is that in the end after Jesus put down everything, including death and hell in the lake of fire, thus completing the kingdom of Heaven, we will never sin against God to be separated from Him & all that is good ever again.

 

[GeneZ]

Is that the same as saying the prohibition not to eat would be meaningful if they were mortal?

A different perspective I believe is needed lest we keep arguing with no end in sight...

Physical mortality was not the issue.
For Adam remained physically alive after he ate.

What took place in the garden was like when the Lord and Satan had reached a preliminary agreement concerning testing Job.
In like manner, the Lord and Satan had an agreement to allow Satan to tempt Adam in the Garden.

Before Job was tested the Lord laid down the ground rules before allowing Satan to test Job.

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? ​

There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man ​

who fears God and shuns evil.”​

​

“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. ​

“Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? ​

You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread ​

throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, ​

and he will surely curse you to your face.”​

​

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, ​

but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Job 1:8-12​

Satan must get permission first!
For even the demons being cast out of Legion needed to first get permission from the Lord before entering the swine.

God in His omniscience set up a format to exist in the Garden for testing Adam.
One that Satan needed first to be granted permission by God for trying.

Consider this, please..

The warning that Adam was given if he ate? That warning meant more to Satan than to Adam.
For Adam was yet vague and uncertain about what death even could mean. For Adam in the yet
pristine Garden never witnessed to death.

But, Satan likely presumed that when Adam ate he would drop dead physically.
Thus making way for Satan to reclaim rulership of the world.
For Satan fully understood what physical death was. Satan knew by what he witnessed to
having seen in the previous creation the likes of T-Rex killing an innocent dinosaur.

I believe when Adam fell Satan must have been confused as to why Adam did not drop dead physically.
But, little did Satan know. Adam died spiritually the instant he swallowed his first mouthful.

There is yet much to understand... What I am sharing I found very helpful in ending a great deal of confusion
I had concerning the fall of man.

grace and peace ..............

 

[Josheb]

You've gone completely off base from what I originally asked. To be honest, you're starting to sound creepy with your demanding I say something I never disagreed with in the first place and patting yourself on the back like you did in this post, just goes against everything I learnt about humility.

Best we part ways. Have a nice day.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Josheb]

The problem with the Tree of Life was that if Adam and the woman ate in their fallen state?

Is that a question?

I reiterate: You had your chance to have a polite, respectful, intelligent and topical conversation and refused to do so. Every word of that entirely speculative dissent has all already been covered.

 

[GeneZ]

Thank you for your time.

And, I thank Sawdust, too.

See! We can agree on something!

 

[GeneZ]

Is that a question?

I reiterate: You had your chance to have a polite, respectful, intelligent and topical conversation and refused to do so. Every word of that entirely speculative dissent has all already been covered.

What I said was not unpolite, sir.
Its you who are assuming too much which translates into rudeness on your part against me.

If I dare to challenge your position with something valid? That is being unpolite?

 

[Josheb]

Is that the same as saying the prohibition not to eat would be meaningful if they were mortal?

You are going to have to break your points down into individual points if you want my to reply because I am not going through that entire post.


As to this one question, the answer is the were mortal and the prohibition was meaningful. Now let me ask you a question. How many different uses for the words "die," or "dead" are there in the whole of the Bible? For example, scripture speaks of being "dead in sin," and a person dying physically. A person who is dead in sin is still walking around, breathing air, physically alive so being dead in sin is not identical to, synonymous with, or the same as physical death. If that dead-in-sin person physically dies then he dies dead. He physically dies already dead in sin. Two different types of death. The scriptures use the concept of death diversely, or in multiple ways. So the question for you is....

How many different types of death are there in the Bible?

I want a number and a very brief single sentence identifying that type of death. Use scripture wherever possible. Thx

 

[ChristB4us]

A different perspective I believe is needed lest we keep arguing with no end in sight...

Physical mortality was not the issue.
For Adam remained physically alive after he ate.

But death did come because of Adam's sin and there was nothing to say that since eating the forbidden fruit was why he was going to die eventually as a result; and so physical mortality is the issue as death came because of sin.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Mayhap, I should have included this scripture above to complete the truth about what Adam had done.

What took place in the garden was like when the Lord and Satan had reached a preliminary agreement concerning testing Job.
In like manner, the Lord and Satan had an agreement to allow Satan to tempt Adam in the Garden.

Before Job was tested the Lord laid down the ground rules before allowing Satan to test Job.

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? ​

There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man ​

who fears God and shuns evil.”​

​

“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. ​

“Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? ​

You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread ​

throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, ​

and he will surely curse you to your face.”​

​

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, ​

but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Job 1:8-12​

Satan must get permission first!
For even the demons being cast out of Legion needed to first get permission from the Lord before entering the swine.

God in His omniscience set up a format to exist in the Garden for testing Adam.
One that Satan needed first to be granted permission by God for trying.

I understand what you are conveying but there was no scenario in regards to Adam from what had happened to Job, simply because f how God reacted to the serpent when the blame game was going on.

Genesis 3:9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
I am not saying that Satan can do something without God's permission as per Job's example; He foreknew the fall and what Satan would do to cause the fall, but there was no conversation between Satan & God for that to happen in the Garden of Eden.

Indeed, that may have been Satan's fall right then and there rather than what people eluded to in regards to Isaiah 14:12 when it was about a boastful king whose corpse was never buried.

Isaiah 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Lucifer was the Latin term for Venus, the son of the morning. It was never in the original Greek manuscripts and so that reference was a Latin footnote for the planet Venus in the Textus Receptus.

Although hard to prove that was when Satan had fallen for tempting Adam & eve like that, it seems the most logical origin of his fall.

Consider this, please..

The warning that Adam was given if he ate? That warning meant more to Satan than to Adam.
For Adam was yet vague and uncertain about what death even could mean. For Adam in the yet
pristine Garden never witnessed to death.

Why would it meant more to Satan than to Adam when Satan has not seen death either?

But, Satan likely presumed that when Adam ate he would drop dead physically.
Thus making way for Satan to reclaim rulership of the world.

I think Satan wanted to know what would happen if one of His creations had disobeyed and did not think he would get in trouble for it for tempting Adam & Eve, but he did. The problem with my thinking and your thinking is that scripture cannot confirm it.

For Satan fully understood what physical death was. Satan knew by what he witnessed to
having seen in the previous creation the likes of T-Rex killing an innocent dinosaur.

I see, even though I disagree with any life before creation week for that would mean death was in the world before Adam and therefore Adam cannot be blamed for death in the world because of his sin. And so where is the victory in Christ if death can come by other ways into the world and not because of sin? How can any believer have the assurance of salvation of never being separated from God and all that is good because of sin & death if there are other ways death can come to separate us from life and the goodness of God?

I believe when Adam fell Satan must have been confused as to why Adam did not drop dead physically.
But, little did Satan know. Adam died spiritually the instant he swallowed his first mouthful.

Seeing how he had thought he was naked because of his sin, was why he felt the need to hide from the holy God. And although the danger of the second death and the first death loomed over Adam & Eve, God provided coverings for them & provided the way out for salvation for them to be reconciled when He had cursed the serpent.

Indeed, Israel's family tree as "the sons of God" goes way back to Seth whom had replaced Abel that was slain and then to Adam, and so grace was given to Adam when He had cursed the serpent, thus providing hope for redemption & reconciliation for why the sons of God were in that Paradise also known as later on as Abraham's bosom awaiting for when Christ descended to the "prison' to preach the gospel to them so that after His resurrection & ascension, He took the captivity captive by moving "Paradise" to the third Heaven above. 2 Corinthians 12:1-4

There is yet much to understand... What I am sharing I found very helpful in ending a great deal of confusion
I had concerning the fall of man.

grace and peace ..............

I thank you for sharing, but as I am open to corrections by the scripture as well, I am sure you & I will know all things when we see Him face to face if we do not know for sure now, but I am certain as far as my edification by the scripture has been going by His grace, Adam was not going to die physically and spiritually until he had sinned.

I do know that there is no life nor death in the world before creation week since the behemoth is a dinosaur as described below;

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. 16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. 17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. 18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

Because of the lie of the evolution theory, Biblical scholars thinks this is describing an alligator, a hippo or an elephant when none of them has a tail as long as a tree which is what a cedar is. Also in the last decade, science discovered that the sex organs of the dinosaurs are internal and yet the Bible describes it as such in the latter part of verse 17 above. So how can the Bible describes a dinosaur which was made with man unless the evolution theory is a lie and there was no life of dinosaurs before creation week because dinosaurs were made with man!!!

Thank you for sharing.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

[ChristB4us]

You are going to have to break your points down into individual points if you want my to reply because I am not going through that entire post.

Well, at least that one question stood out for you to address.

As to this one question, the answer is the were mortal and the prohibition was meaningful. Now let me ask you a question. How many different uses for the words "die," or "dead" are there in the whole of the Bible? For example, scripture speaks of being "dead in sin," and a person dying physically. A person who is dead in sin is still walking around, breathing air, physically alive so being dead in sin is not identical to, synonymous with, or the same as physical death. If that dead-in-sin person physically dies then he dies dead. He physically dies already dead in sin. Two different types of death. The scriptures use the concept of death diversely, or in multiple ways. So the question for you is....

How many different types of death are there in the Bible?

I want a number and a very brief single sentence identifying that type of death. Use scripture wherever possible. Thx

Best stick to the scripture at the onset rather than go all over the place if you wanted to go from Adam's point of view.

Genesis 2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

How would you take His warning to mean? God is life. God is good. Anything outside of His will is outside of God of all that is good and life.

As I see it, that was when death came by his sin for why, after he had sinned, he started to age to die therefore he was not mortal until the fall.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death was never in the world before creation week, otherwise sin was not responsible for how death came into the world and so where is the victory & the assurance of Christ for eternal life where we would never be separated from God ever again by death & sin if Adam was not at fault in the very beginning?

 

[Josheb]

Well, at least that one question stood out for you to address.

Best stick to the scripture at the onset rather than go all over the place if you wanted to go from Adam's point of view.

Genesis 2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

How would you take His warning to mean? God is life. God is good. Anything outside of His will is outside of God of all that is good and life.

As I see it, that was when death came by his sin for why, after he had sinned, he started to age to die therefore he was not mortal until the fall.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death was never in the world before creation week, otherwise sin was not responsible for how death came into the world and so where is the victory & the assurance of Christ for eternal life where we would never be separated from God ever again by death & sin if Adam was not at fault in the very beginning?

So not going to answer my question?

 

[GeneZ]

But death did come because of Adam's sin and there was nothing to say that since eating the forbidden fruit was why he was going to die eventually as a result; and so physical mortality is the issue as death came because of sin.

The often not translated literal Hebrew states..

​

"In dying you shall die."​

To be more accurately read....

'For in the day that you eat of it, in dying you shall die." Genesis 2:17​

The assumption for many concerning the double deaths, has been that the Hebrew simply means, "surely die on the day you eat."

But.. The problem is? Adam walked around on that day after eating, and lived for many years after.

The Hebrew holds a dual meaning. One that was shown to be true by what actually took place after Adam ate.

To grasp a better understanding we can read it this way...

'For in the day that you eat of it, in dying spiritually you shall die physically as a result." ​

And, that was exactly what happened to Adam. For Adam remained physically alive long after eating the forbidden fruit!


God has raised up only a few qualified exegetical teachers qualified to feed those who hunger for the organic meat of the word.

grace and peace ..............

 

[ChristB4us]

So not going to answer my question?

I did. Guess we are at an impasse then. Have a blessed day.

 

[ChristB4us]

The often not translated literal Hebrew states..

​

"In dying you shall die."​

To be more accurately read....

'For in the day that you eat of it, in dying you shall die." Genesis 2:17​

The assumption for many concerning the double deaths, has been that the Hebrew simply means, "surely die on the day you eat."

But.. The problem is? Adam walked around on that day after eating, and lived for many years after.

The Hebrew holds a dual meaning. One that was shown to be true by what actually took place after Adam ate.

To grasp a better understanding we can read it this way...

'For in the day that you eat of it, in dying spiritually you shall die physically as a result." ​

And, that was exactly what happened to Adam. For Adam remained physically alive long after eating the forbidden fruit!


God has raised up only a few qualified exegetical teachers qualified to feed those who hunger for the organic meat of the word.

grace and peace ..............

I still see it as supporting my understanding in the scripture that Adam was not mortal until he had eaten it thus having sinned, started aging and thus started dying for which he would eventually die a physical death while encountering a separation from God and all that is of God like life and goodness.

I thank you for sharing as I know very well, not everything is translated well into English, even in the KJV.

 

[Josheb]

I did. Guess we are at an impasse then. Have a blessed day.

I guess since I asked for a number and no number was given.

1. There is death where the body dies, a person dies physically (Jms. 2:26).
2. There is death where one is dead in transgression or sin (Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13).
3. There is dead in Christ (1 Thes. 4:16).
4. There is dead to sin (Rom. 6:11).

That is four different types of death. There are a few more that have to do with different types of death on the other side of the grave, most of which are based on the myths of the surrounding cultures used in the Bible (like hades, tartarus, elysium, etc.), but for the purposes of this thread these four will suffice. Notice there is no "spiritual death" stated in the Bible. It's a commonly used phrase in preaching/teaching but scripture never uses it.

God told Adam that the day he ate the forbidden fruit he would die, but Adam was still alive after eating the fruit. He did not physically die that day so either God made a mistake, or was lying, or God was referring to a death other than physical death. As @GeneZ has correctly observed, the Hebrew says, "dying you will die," and some people interpret that to mean Adam began to die physically that day and it simply took him many hundreds of yours to finally expire. I think that takes extreme liberty with the meaning of "day." and better view is to understand he was dead in sin while still being very much alive physically, breathing air and pumping blood. Dying, he was dead. Having been sown mortal he was dying physically but while still breathing air and pumping blood he was dead in sin.

The only person to have ever physically died while still sinless is Jesus. If Adam had died physically while not dead in sin then we can presume that event would be different than his dying physically while dead in sin but one of the things that cannot be assumed is he would have made his way to the Father apart from Christ (Jn. 14:6). As I put it in another post, if he dies physically while also dead in sin he is twice-dead: dead physically and dead in sin. That's bad news. He's off to the fiery lake if he dies dead in sin . But! if a person has disobeyed God and is thereby dead in sin and he later comes to believe in Jesus as his Lord and Savior then having previously been dead in sin he is now dead in Christ, and being dead in Christ he is also dead to sin. Having been dead in sin he is dead to sin if he is also dead in Christ. When that guy dies he is quadruple-dead! Whereas the twice-dead guy goes off to the fiery lake the four-times dead guy goes off to eternal life. He is raised incorruptible and immortal never to die dead in sin or dead physically ever again.


So we see there is more than one or two types of death.


Keep in mind God is the God of both the living and the dead and that's very important when answering the question asked in this op.


When it comes to resurrection, there is no death unless a person has first lived and there is no resurrection unless there is first a death. So a person must first live, then die, and then be resurrected. That is exactly what Jesus did. It is what Hebrews 9:27 tells us all will do. It has been appointed for every person to die once and then face judgment (which death? ). Every gets raised. Everyone gets judged. Those not in Christ get raised to eternal destruction and those in Christ get raised to eternal life (Gal. 6:8).

I did. Guess we are at an impasse then.

No, you didn't, and it was a fairly easy question to answer.

Have a blessed day.

Bye

 

[GeneZ]

I still see it as supporting my understanding in the scripture that Adam was not mortal until he had eaten it thus having sinned, started aging and thus started dying for which he would eventually die a physical death while encountering a separation from God and all that is of God like life and goodness.

I thank you for sharing as I know very well, not everything is translated well into English, even in the KJV.

Adam did not have eternal life when created. If he did? He could not die.

Adam only had a day to day contract with God as long as he did not eat the junk food.

After redemption, he landed in a better place. Eternal life.

 

[GeneZ]

I guess since I asked for a number and no number was given.

1. There is death where the body dies, a person dies physically (Jms. 2:26).
2. There is death where one is dead in transgression or sin (Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13).
3. There is dead in Christ (1 Thes. 4:16).
4. There is dead to sin (Rom. 6:11).

Forgot one? ...

1 Timothy 5:6​

​

The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in ​

God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. ​

But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. ​

 

[Josheb]

Forgot one? ...

1 Timothy 5:6​

​

The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in ​

God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. ​

But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. ​

That would be synonymous with dead in sin because the pleasure in which she lived was sin. As I said in that earlier post, there are other forms (three or four more, at least). I did not "forget" any; they were deliberately left out because as I said in the previous post, the four listed were sufficient to make the two salient points: there are more than one or two types of death, and it is possible to be dead in more than one way at the same time.

Man was made mortal. Being mortal, Adam became dead in sin. Dying he was dying or, more accurately, dying physically in his God-made mortality he became dead in sin and lived the rest of his life that way unless he became dead to sin due to being dead in Christ. If the latter occurs then he was raised incorruptible and immortal to eternal life because making humans in His own image was the plan and the occurrence of sin did not obstruct, interfere with, have any adverse effect on that plan. God and His plan are not dependent on sin in any way and no special contingency was necessary because God is immutable, omni-attributed and sovereign over all, including sin. There was never a moment when God thought, "Oh! I better make a plan just in case son happens. He did not need a plan for sin."