Which person in the Trinity is the Judge?

[Red Baker]

So?
That Jesus was divine is Catholicism to the core.
That Jesus was born of a virgin is Catholicism to the core.
That Jesus death atoned for sin is Catholicism to the core.

I never said that, you did. Of course most cults have some points a child of God would agree with, the Pharisees believed in spirits and angels~the Sadducees denied both~and we as Christians, reject both of their rellgion.

You know what I was referring to, so let's be honest, I think you are better than that~I was referring to their doctrine of eternal regeneration of the Son of God.

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the Only Begotten Son of God,

born of the Father "before all ages".

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;

That statement is pure heresy, for it denies Jesus being the Eternal God in his Divine nature as the Eternal God NOT begotten~that he alonje in his Divinity is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end of all things.

Jesus, as the Son of God, was not begotten before all ages, that's against the testimony of Luke one, pure and simple. HIs humanity was begotten, not his Divine nature, that is heresy. Flesh and blood was not before all ages, it came into existence around 13,500 years ago based upon God's timeline of creation per Genesis 4~10 hidden in the Patriarchs birth and death.

In God's eternal decree, all things were before all ages.
I was chosen before all ages (Ro 8:29).

Sister, this is so, and I agree 100% with you, but only in God's eternal decrees, and his everlasting covenant which he purposed within himself.

Yes, you and all of God elect were chosen before the foundation of the world, but you were not there and neither was I ~ Only in God's eternal purposes, he has loved and known us.

Psalms 139:13-16~"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

A prophecy of Christ and his elect members of his body!

That is the nature of God--Father, Son and Holy Spirit--without beginning and without end.

The Godhead in its Divine nature has no beginning and no end~One God manifest as three to us. This one God is a Spirit, who joined himself to the tabernacle of his Son, whom he begotten around two thousand years ago through the means of his infinite wisdom and power, and thus was made flesh for all to see, and to be a surety of God's elect.

The Son of God, Jesus of Narareth, had a beginning and it is recorded for us, the only record in the word of God that's is recorded concerning the time when God had a Son begotten by him through a virgin woman named Mary. His humanity had a beginning not his Divinity as God~that's eternal both ways.

That is the nature of God--Father, Son and Holy Spirit--without beginning and without end.

If you disagree, you are not in agreement with orthodox Christianity.

On the Trinity, I am in agreement with orthodox Christianity. . .for the simple reason that divinity is necessarily eternal--Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
If you are not in agreement with orthodox Christianity regarding the Trinity, then our differences are irresolvable.

I'm not in agreement with professing believers, just as Jesus was not in in days~the majority of professing so called orthodox followers of God wer ein error, this has always been the case, and always will be. I do believe that God has children who are following the masses instead of his word~but, I'll leave that to God to judge them, I will not, less I offend one of his little ones.

Eleanor, It sure seems that way. I'm only laboring to protect our Lord's deity as being the I AM THAT I AM of the word of God~the Alpha and the Omega~the ALmighty! The incarnate Sonship is the only way of doing so. The Eternal Sohship destroys of our Lord's deity and plays right into the hands of Jehovah Witnesses and others who do so.

I am in agreement with the Orthodox teaching on the Trinity.
Our differences are not resolvable.

We shall stop this discussion. No hard hard feelings, on my part. I think I'll head to the eschatology section for a while, and, or to another forum where I'm behind of posting there.

 

[Eleanor]

I was referring to their doctrine of eternal regeneration of the Son of God.

God the Son became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth.
God the Son, as well as God the Holy Spirit, are eternally generated, not regenerated, they are eternally proceeding out from (exerchomai, ekporeuomai) the Father (Jn 8:42, Jn 15:26).

 

[Rella]

I never said that, you did. Of course most cults have some points a child of God would agree with, the Pharisees believed in spirits and angels~the Sadducees denied both~and we as Christians, reject both of their rellgion.

You know what I was referring to, so let's be honest, I think you are better than that~I was referring to their doctrine of eternal regeneration of the Son of God.

That statement is pure heresy, for it denies Jesus being the Eternal God in his Divine nature as the Eternal God NOT begotten~that he alonje in his Divinity is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end of all things.

But Red, Do you not see that it was not Jesus who was in the beginning in the Godhead.... it was the Word.

There was NO "FATHER" in the sense of the Godhead until Jesus came to walk earth.

There always was the Trinity. God YHWH, The Word, The Holy Spirit. Yahweh was not The Words father. (He was Jesus' father once Jesus was born from Mary) It was the Word who left the comforts of the Godhead to become Jesus.... see John 1... and from that point forward, as Jesus... God was His Father... He was the Son... but before that there was no one that was born from the Father.... not in the usual sense we assume begotten means ( verb: Past participle of beget. adjective: (of offspring) generated by procreation.)

It might be appropriate to assign the meaning of

Monogenes ( Which deserves a thread and study on its own)

Monogenes has two primary definitions, "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship" and "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind".​

This.....following is

Wishful thinking from someone who only thought to put together something feel good is WRONG>

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the Only Begotten Son of God,

born of the Father "before all ages".

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;

Jesus was only begotten... as in born.... 2400 years ago. Be it that a birth took place as in begat.... also with the natutre of pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship" and "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind

It was only after this that we can definitively say God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit ARE the Trinity. NOT BEFORE

Jesus, as the Son of God, was not begotten before all ages, that's against the testimony of Luke one, pure and simple. HIs humanity was begotten, not his Divine nature, that is heresy. Flesh and blood was not before all ages, it came into existence around 13,500 years ago based upon God's timeline of creation per Genesis 4~10 hidden in the Patriarchs birth and death.

I find this to be beyond confusing for my understanding the way you word it. But that is me.

I absolutely DO NOT BELIVE that God YHWH or God th Father ever intentionally meant this subject to be so confusing when it is simplistic in design.

No wonder so many say it is not because they cannot understand when we believers cannot agree.

I will stick by what I clearly see.

Sister, this is so, and I agree 100% with you, but only in God's eternal decrees, and his everlasting covenant which he purposed within himself.

Yes, you and all of God elect were chosen before the foundation of the world, but you were not there and neither was I ~ Only in God's eternal purposes, he has loved and known us.

A prophecy of Christ and his elect members of his body!

The Godhead in its Divine nature has no beginning and no end~One God manifest as three to us. This one God is a Spirit, who joined himself to the tabernacle of his Son, whom he begotten around two thousand years ago through the means of his infinite wisdom and power, and thus was made flesh for all to see, and to be a surety of God's elect.

The Son of God, Jesus of Narareth, had a beginning and it is recorded for us, the only record in the word of God that's is recorded concerning the time when God had a Son begotten by him through a virgin woman named Mary. His humanity had a beginning not his Divinity as God~that's eternal both ways.


I'm not in agreement with professing believers, just as Jesus was not in in days~the majority of professing so called orthodox followers of God wer ein error, this has always been the case, and always will be. I do believe that God has children who are following the masses instead of his word~but, I'll leave that to God to judge them, I will not, less I offend one of his little ones.

Eleanor, It sure seems that way. I'm only laboring to protect our Lord's deity as being the I AM THAT I AM of the word of God~the Alpha and the Omega~the ALmighty! The incarnate Sonship is the only way of doing so. The Eternal Sohship destroys of our Lord's deity and plays right into the hands of Jehovah Witnesses and others who do so.


We shall stop this discussion. No hard hard feelings, on my part. I think I'll head to the eschatology section for a while, and, or to another forum where I'm behind of posting there.

 

[Rella]

God the Son became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth.
God the Son, as well as God the Holy Spirit, are eternally generated, not regenerated, they are eternally proceeding out from (exerchomai, ekporeuomai) the Father (Jn 8:42, Jn 15:26).

No... God the Son could not have been the Son before he became flesh.

That would make him younger the the Father....

Therefore the Trinity could not have been a unit of 3 if that were the case

 

[Eleanor]

No... God the Son could not have been the Son before he became flesh.

That would make him younger the the Father....

Therefore the Trinity could not have been a unit of 3 if that were the case

I agree with the Orthodox statement of the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

 

[Red Baker]

God the Son became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth.

The word of God does not say this, that's your words base on man's teaching that you have come to accept above the scriptures.

It was the Word, that was God, that was made flesh has He joined himself to the tabernacle of Jesus of Narareth. There was no Son of God until the Highest impregnated Mary and she conceived and gave birth to the Son of God. That's God record that he has given to us. Why add to the word of God.

God the Son, as well as God the Holy Spirit, are eternally generated, not regenerated, they are eternally proceeding out from (exerchomai, ekporeuomai) the Father (Jn 8:42, Jn 15:26).

Of course they are not regenerated, and neither are they eternally generated. Again, here is my own outline put together a few years back:

Question #1~ Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? (You and others say yes~RB) The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

The answer to that questions is NO! So how can one believe in eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ? A Sonship relationship that was before the biblical testimony of Luke 1:11-35. I must stand upon God's own testimony of the conception of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Man.

Question #2~ Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting in question #1? Surely not.

And we ask~"How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? We shall prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.

Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things~the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. We do not care what others teach and who teach them. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh before Jews and Gentiles and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.

If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done.

The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least to be able and willing to tell their own meaning in the use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough?

I want to give you not only reasons why we reject the eternal Sonship, but would like to ask you, or anyone some questions, I have about ten or so. Consider:

When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?

We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise. I would like to consider a few reasons why I know that the eternal Sonship position is a serious error.

Reason #1~The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

Reason #2~If Jesus Christ be the eternal Son of God, or if he was eternally begotten/generated, according to his Divine nature, then he CAN NOT be the Eternal God that inhabiteth eternity.

The reason why is this: "son" implies a father; and father in reference to a son, precedency in time, if not in nature as well. Father and son imply the ideal of generation~generation implies a time, in which it was effected, and time is also antecedent to such generation.

We know that Jesus Christ was both God that inhabiteth eternity and the Son of God that had a beginning when he was conceived by the Holy Ghost!

The eternal Sonship position is against the witness of God himself concerning his Son.

The incarnate Sonship protects the Deity of the Son of God, and confesses that he is both the I am that I am, and the Son of God and the Son of man.

I have more to come to prove that Jesus was not a Son before Genesis 1:1. Why I am preparing more reasons, one quick question for I readers: "Who was Jesus' eternal mother?" I have heard many discombobulated expressions trying to prove the eternal Sonship doctrine, by men whom I have respect toward, that one wonders~ "why Sir, do you not just stay with the scriptures and save yourself the shame of showing your ignorance of spiritual things".

Jesus became the Son of God at the same time he became the Son of man. We have the word of God to support that witness that we just gave. Yet, man's witness goes against God's testimony concerning his Son. As for me and my house, we will believe God's own testimony over man's.

Question #3~ "What part of Jesus Christ was derived from God?"

Surely not his Divine Nature! if One God can be derived, why not many? Many Mighty Gods and Everlasting Fathers, (there not many, but ONE, revealed to us as three, according to their work in the affairs of creation, and the salvation of the elect seed of Jesus Christ) many first Causes, and last End of all things! The Eternal Spirit of God is not capable of diminution or divisibility, that is an impossibility. This would be going against what his word teaches us, that we should have no other gods before Him.

Pagans believed in the power of propagation of their gods, we as Bible Christians do not. The Bible demands belief in nothing of this kind, relative to our heavenly Father.

To be continue..

 

[Red Baker]

Question #4~ "Is it so, that there are many representations in the scriptures that teach that the Godhead in some mysterious sense is three, yet essentially ONE?"

It is very much so. "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with you all. Amen" 2 Corinthians 13:14....The holy scriptures teaches us that in some mysterious scriptural sense, the Godhead are three, yet we know that there are titles, found in the scriptures of the name of God, that can be applied to each one of them individually, interchangeable, and equally. This is very important to remember. In innumerable scriptures, God, and Christ, are spoken of as two persons, yet are presented in an essential unity as one; so that each may affirm, that there is no other God besides Himself. This is important to remember. There are not two distinct Gods~together, they are ONE God!

The Divine nature of Christ, does all that God does equally~he is not absent; nor is he another God, but and the same God! And Yet, there is a personal and real distinction between God the Eternal Spirit, and Jesus his Son. The deity of Jesus Christ is not and cannot be excluded from any transactions done by God before the creation of the world, during the OT times before the birth of Jesus, and throughout eternity. They are essential ONE and CAN NOT be separated into two or three.

When we read that the Son created the worlds, then we understand that that is speaking of his Divine Nature ONLY, of being the I am THAT I AM. This is not really too deep, just following God's own witness to us concerning these things and giving the scriptures their proper senses.

When reading such scriptures as 1 Peter 1:11; 1 Corinthians 10:4-5; Romans 8:9; and 1 Peter 3:18-19; and others, then we understand that Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of Man (which is used twice as many times as the Son of God in the bible) was a complex person, both God, and man, and the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ is none other than the One and True God that is from everlasting to everlasting, and these two in the word of God are essentially and scripturally by God's own testimony ONE.

Question #5~ "Can the Most High thus address a derived, dependent being, as God, without establishing idolatry?"

Absolutely not! Yet the Most High God did address his Son as God.

Hebrews 1:8~ Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne O God, is forever and ever."

So, Jesus is the Son, yet is God that shall reign forever and ever. That will come to pass the scriptures that are written: "Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8 and many more~Rev. 21:3,22,23; Rev. 22:3,4,9,16,19-20.

Question #6~ "Did Paul, or any other apostles, or prophets, ever lead us to believe that Jesus and God, were not essentially one." Never! But, what they taught us plainly was that Jesus was indeed God blessed for ever. Paul said these words: Whose are the fathers, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever." ~Romans 9:5

Question #7~"Can a derived and dependent person be Almighty?"

Most certainly not! Yet, Jesus was the mighty God promised by the prophets as we read from Isaiah 9:6. Jesus called himself the Almighty, listen to his own words: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:1:8

If Jesus was the beginning of all things, and he was, then he was not the eternal Son, because, the word son, by definition, proves a beginning~if he is Almighty, and he is, then no one is greater than he is, none. He alone will be worshiped in that world to come, for he will reign as King forever more, world without end.

To be continue..

 

[Red Baker]

Question #8~From the great work, which was assigned to Jesus Christ, light is cast upon this important subject at hand. So we ask the conscience of every person taught in the sentiments of the gospel~Was not an infinite atonement necessary and demanded, according to the word of God, to take away our sins?" Again, "was not the righteousness of a perfect man, whose righteousness was equal to God, necessary to avail for sinful and lost man; in order to redeem him from sin and condemnation and to give the redeem person an entitlement to eternal life? Only Jesus Christ, who was both the Son of God, and as well, the Son of Man, could have been that perfect atonement for our sins. It was by one man that sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and death passed upon all men, because all sinned in their father Adam. Jesus Christ was that perfect man, for he was the Son of God, begotten by him in the womb of a virgin named Mary.

We have the record of his birth recorded for us in the holy scriptures. The only record /witness, that we have of God's Son coming into being the Son of God, there is not another, but the one recorded in Luke 1. Any other witness is a lie and only vain speculations of man not receiving the witness of the Spirit of God, but are guilty of following what others teach concerning the Sonship of God's holy child.

Question #9~"Did Jesus Christ have a beginning?~Or, in order for us to help those who reading this to better follow God's word/witness to us, concerning His Son, we could ask also ask this question, with the one at the beginning of this sentence: Did Jesus have a beginning?"

The scriptures very carefully divide and protect the identity of Jesus Christ; and so should we. The questions above demand for us to stay within the bounds of the scriptures, as we should always do, to find our answers; for the answers to our questions are: yes and no.

Most should know that the name of Christ, speaks to his deity, and proves that he was indeed the Son of the Living God; whereas Jesus, is his earthly name, and speaks and proves his humanity. There was, and can be, only one Jesus Christ; for God had only one begotten Son, begotten by the power of the Highest in a womb of a virgin woman of Adam's race, named Mary.

Jesus Christ had no beginning! The scriptures are very plain concerning this truth.

1 John 1:1..."That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life."

This scripture gets lost among people's favorites, yet this scripture is powerful to the regenerate mind and lover of the word of God.

The God that created all things that have always been from the beginning, or from eternity, made himself visible, to human beings in the person of His Son, whom he had begotten, by his Spirit in the womb of Mary. The Infinite, Glorious Spirit, purpose and planned every perfect detail of his holy event~"God was manifested in the flesh"~ seen of angels, (for the first time!) and preached unto sinners, and allowed men like John to lay his head on his chest, and allowed sinners to even spit in his face! I cannot even begin to express, nor do I have the ability, to express in words, how great our God is, and the length he went to redeem his chosen race!

John said it so plain: "that which was from the beginning." There is no room for debate; Jesus Christ was the Word of Life, that had no beginning! The eternal Sonship doctrine by definition goes against the scriptures before us. By definition, (as we have proven,) that eternal and son cannot be used together, for son, by definition, brings with it a beginning, or words cease to have any meaning, and anyone can use words to teach anything!

1 John 2:13a.... "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning...."

John 1:1...."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD."

In 1 John 1:1~John called Jesus Christ, the Word of life. Paul said by him all things consist, for he created all things, for he alone is the Word of Life. Paul said again, "Who is the image of the invisible God-" Colossians 1:15

Jesus Christ is not the second person of the Trinity~HE IS GOD! period! He was not conceived in the beginning~he was God FROM THE BEGINNING that created all things!

John 1:13.... "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

You are following creeds, men, it is best to follow only the word of God and its testimony, the only way you can ever shut the mouths of gainsayers. If you have noticed they have stopped posting on here~wonder why? I can assure you that it is not your doctrine that has stop them, but the testimony of God word has stop them~the incarnate Sonship position.

God was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. The Word was not begotten by the power of the Highest, Jesus, the Son of God was begotten. The Word that was from the beginning, joined himself to the tabernacle (fleshly body of Jesus) and lived among men. The Eternal Spirit of God never ceased to be who he is~A SPIRIT that inhabiteth eternity, who rules over all of his creation! Read Isaiah 57:15 and John 4:24!!

Jesus had a beginning, and it is clearly revealed for us in the NT from Luke 1. We know his mother and who his suppose father~Joseph. We know where he lived and where he died. Jesus was fully man and fully God, and two natures never interfere with his work of redemption but worked in perfect harmony to accomplish God's eternal purpose which he purposed in himself. Eph. 1:9

 

[Red Baker]

I agree with the Orthodox statement of the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Sister, you are no doubt a lover of God and his word, I have no doubt in that, but on this point you are holding to creeds above the word of God, you need to rethink your position in light of thus saith the Lord. Forget about what others teach and believe, if they are in the majority, or minority~be sure of this...you find the truth in the very small remnant! Smaller than you think. In the days of Naoh, only a few had the truth, very few. Even less in Gomorrah and Sodom.

 

[Arial]

Jesus, as the Son of God, was not begotten before all ages, that's against the testimony of Luke one, pure and simple. HIs humanity was begotten, not his Divine nature, that is heresy. Flesh and blood was not before all ages, it came into existence around 13,500 years ago based upon God's timeline of creation per Genesis 4~10 hidden in the Patriarchs birth and death.

I don't think anyone here or the creed you quote, is saying that Christ's divine nature was begotten! Scripture also says He was crucified before the foundation of the world and I question whether anyone thinks that means Jesus was crucified before He was crucified. Most likely that, and the wording of begotten or born of the Father "before all ages" refers to the covenant of redemption within the Godhead before creation.

I think you are arguing with the way in which individuals choose to word the deity of Christ. In your own writing it is very difficult to parse what you are saying, as at some times it seems you are denying the Trinity all together and then you word you word your belief in it, and the two natures of Christ perfectly. Talking in circles iow one point seeming to refute the full deity and full humanity of Jesus, and the next moment affirming it.

On the other hand, it seems you proclaim that as long as God was Jesus was on earth, He was absent from heaven. The actual doctrine teaches that nothing was subtracted from the eternal God in the incarnation, but that there was an addition---not TO God, but in His way of interaction with us for the purpose of redemption.

The things I have said, are the way in which your presentation appears to me.

 

[Eleanor]

Sister, you are no doubt a lover of God and his word, I have no doubt in that, but on this point you are holding to creeds above the word of God,
you need to rethink your position in light of thus saith the Lord.

I find the orthodox statement regarding the Trinity to be the best in existence of the science of theology in accordance with the word of God.
I find it explains the intimate nature of supernatural truth in agreement with and in the light of the word.
I find your science of theology to be inconsistent and undeveloped, severely limping in your understanding of "eternal."

Arial states it perfectly in the following:

I don't think anyone here or the creed you quote, is saying that Christ's divine nature was begotten! Scripture also says He was crucified before the foundation of the world and I question whether anyone thinks that means Jesus was crucified before He was crucified. Most likely that, and the wording of begotten or born of the Father "before all ages" refers to the covenant of redemption within the Godhead before creation.

I think you are arguing with the way in which individuals choose to word the deity of Christ. In your own writing it is very difficult to parse what you are saying, as at some times it seems you are denying the Trinity all together and then you word you word your belief in it, and the two natures of Christ perfectly. Talking in circles, iow one point seeming to refute the full deity and full humanity of Jesus, and the next moment affirming it.

On the other hand, it seems you proclaim that as long as God was Jesus was on earth, He was absent from heaven. The actual doctrine teaches that nothing was subtracted from the eternal God in the incarnation, but that there was an addition---not TO God, but in His way of interaction with us for the purpose of redemption.

 

[Red Baker]

I don't think anyone here or the creed you quote, is saying that Christ's divine nature was begotten! Scripture also says He was crucified before the foundation of the world and I question whether anyone thinks that means Jesus was crucified before He was crucified. Most likely that, and the wording of begotten or born of the Father "before all ages" refers to the covenant of redemption within the Godhead before creation.

I think you are arguing with the way in which individuals choose to word the deity of Christ. In your own writing it is very difficult to parse what you are saying, as at some times it seems you are denying the Trinity all together and then you word you word your belief in it, and the two natures of Christ perfectly. Talking in circles iow one point seeming to refute the full deity and full humanity of Jesus, and the next moment affirming it.

On the other hand, it seems you proclaim that as long as God was Jesus was on earth, He was absent from heaven. The actual doctrine teaches that nothing was subtracted from the eternal God in the incarnation, but that there was an addition---not TO God, but in His way of interaction with us for the purpose of redemption.

The things I have said, are the way in which your presentation appears to me.

Arial, thank you for your input, allow me to come back in the morning and explain myself even more where it seem to be a paradox to you. I'm finished for today as it is late for me to make a good post, better for me around four to five in the morning when my mind has rested.

 

[Arial]

Arial, thank you for your input, allow me to come back in the morning and explain myself even more where it seem to be a paradox to you. I'm finished for today as it is late for me to make a good post, better for me around four to five in the morning when my mind has rested.

See my post #76.

And here. https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/unitarianism-and-their-beliefs.1940/post-83345

 

[Runningman]

Your jesus is another jesus, promoting another gospel, under the power of another spirit.

Jump in and we shall prove this to be so.

I literally laughed. Your Trinity doctrine "God is in three persons" isn't even directly stated in the Bible.

If you wish to prove this to be so then prove you are able to agree with the things that, while inconvenient for you, are nevertheless true.

 

[Rella]

I literally laughed. Your Trinity doctrine "God is in three persons" isn't even directly stated in the Bible.

In what? ... I wish you people would stop naming things that are or not in a book that is NOT named there either.

If you wish to prove this to be so then prove you are able to agree with the things that, while inconvenient for you, are nevertheless true.

 

[Runningman]

In what? ... I wish you people would stop naming things that are or not in a book that is NOT named there either.

The Greek equivalent for Bible is in the Bible.

Matthew 1
1The book(BIBLOS) of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

I wish you people would stop naming things that are not in the Bible.

 

[Red Baker]

I literally laughed. Your Trinity doctrine "God is in three persons" isn't even directly stated in the Bible.

Is this what you call jumping in? Laughing is about all you can do, since you certainly cannot provide scriptures to support your heresy. God's testimony from his word will not provide you any hope, only a curse for people like you, who rejects the doctrine that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh, while still being the eternal God who is a Spirit dwelling in eternity.

If you wish to prove this to be so then prove you are able to agree with the things that, while inconvenient for you, are nevertheless true.

I have no clue what you are attempting to say, for there is not one thing that I should agree with, that is inconvenient for me that is true~for if it is a truth of the scriptures, then why would that be a problem? God's children desire truth more than gold or silver, or anything this world has to offer them. Jesus said:

John 8:32​

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

I'm free from being in bondage to man's doctrines found in creeds, and false cults, since we live by every word of God, and if I cannot support my teachings with the scriptures, then I dig deeper and work harder because know that the truth is found only within the scriptures, not in the teachings of men who think they are wiser than the scriptures.

 

[Rella]

The Greek equivalent for Bible is in the Bible.

Matthew 1
1The book(BIBLOS) of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

I wish you people would stop naming things that are not in the Bible.

The word bible is not in the book.

Biblos is not translated Bible according to the Greek Mathew 1:1

1 976 [e] 1 Biblos 1 Βίβλος 1 [The] book 1 N-NFS​

1078 [e] geneseōs γενέσεως of [the] genealogy N-GFS​

Peshitta Aramaic...

1The book of the genealogy of Yeshua The Messiah, The Son of David, The Son of Abraham.

Varied translations........ of Matt 1:1

New International Version
This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:

New Living Translation
This is a record of the ancestors of Jesus the Messiah, a descendant of David and of Abraham:

English Standard Version
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Berean Standard Bible
This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

Berean Literal Bible
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham:

King James Bible
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

New King James Version
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:

New American Standard Bible
The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

NASB 1995
The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

NASB 1977
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Legacy Standard Bible
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

Amplified Bible
The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son (descendant) of David, the son (descendant) of Abraham:

Christian Standard Bible
An account of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The historical record of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:

American Standard Version
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The book of the genealogy of Yeshua The Messiah, The Son of David, The Son of Abraham.

Contemporary English Version
Jesus Christ came from the family of King David and also from the family of Abraham. And this is a list of his ancestors.

Douay-Rheims Bible
THE book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

English Revised Version
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is the list of ancestors of Jesus Christ, descendant of David and Abraham.

Good News Translation
This is the list of the ancestors of Jesus Christ, a descendant of David, who was a descendant of Abraham.

International Standard Version
This is a record of the life of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Literal Standard Version
[The] scroll of the birth of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham.

Majority Standard Bible
This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

New American Bible
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

NET Bible
This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

New Revised Standard Version
An account of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

New Heart English Bible
A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Webster's Bible Translation
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Weymouth New Testament
The Genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

World English Bible
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Young's Literal Translation
A roll of the birth of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham.

 

[Red Baker]

I wish you people would stop naming things that are not in the Bible.

Listen to the worn calling the snail slimy.

 

[Red Baker]

The things I have said, are the way in which your presentation appears to me.

I understand, so let me see if I can clear this up a little for you, so that, you will have a much cleaner view of what I'm saying.

I don't think anyone here or the creed you quote, is saying that Christ's divine nature was begotten!

No one here has gone that far in saying this, yet they have gone as far as to agree with the creeds which without question is teaching this heresy.

We reject totally that the Son of God, as God, was begotten mysteriously in eternity by the Father. We reject this heresy, because this teaches and can only teach:

The Divine Nature of Jesus, His Deity, His Godhead, was eternally generated by God the Father.

By means of eternal generation, God the Father begat, fathered, the Second Person of the Trinity, according to those who hold this doctrine.

Also, by means of eternal procession, God the Holy Spirit mystically proceeds from Father and Son.

This unscriptural doctrine is almost universally maintained by all “Christian” religious denominations...regardless of their other foalse teaching, most unite under this strange banner.

It is expressed plainly in the formal creeds and confessions, which venerate the Council of Nicea, but not from the word of God.

The obvious and certain conclusion is a begotten god, which reduces Jesus to a begotten god.

The NASV, in agreement with the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ NWT, affirms this lie in John 1:18. We earnestly contend against it.

As I mention above in another post yesterday: If we consider this doctrine rationally which few are capable of doing then an eternally begotten or generated son is simply impossible. The definitions are mutually exclusive.

Father. One by whom a child is or has been begotten, a male parent. Generate. To beget, procreate; engender. To bring into existence, to produce. Father and son are functional terms that describe a relationship of time, not eternity.

Eternal generation says either (a) the Son is still being generated or (b) He had a beginning.

We believe with all of our hearts: Scripture is superior to reason, there is no Scripture teaching eternal generation, no, not one, and not even close of being one.

Scripture also says He was crucified before the foundation of the world and I question whether anyone thinks that means Jesus was crucified before He was crucified. Most likely that, and the wording of begotten or born of the Father "before all ages" refers to the covenant of redemption within the Godhead before creation.

Sister, those are two completely different doctrines altogether. I wish that it was that simple, because that could be easily settled, but, it is not. Though I agree that the everlasting covenant was settled before the foundation of the word as far as God purposing's what he would do in time, yet the sonship doctrine is altogether another doctrine.

I think you are arguing with the way in which individuals choose to word the deity of Christ. In your own writing it is very difficult to parse what you are saying, as at some times it seems you are denying the Trinity all together and then you word you word your belief in it, and the two natures of Christ perfectly.

I believe in the doctrine of teh Trinity as taught in the scriptures, not by creeds of men.

The Trinity Is True:​

The incarnate Sonship of Jesus Christ does not deny or weaken the Trinity at all. It establishes it. Only the ignorant or malicious will accuse the incarnate Sonship position of denying the Trinity.

The Trinity of the Bible is superior to the speculative Trinity of the Nicene Creed and followers. The Bible makes all three Persons without any distinction in their nature whatsoever.

The Bible knows nothing of “God of God” and other philosophical speculations of men. The Bible knows nothing of a begotten god, which confuses the Trinity into paganism.

Yet, Rome, Good men John Calvin, and others accuse us of the straw man argument of anti-Trinitarianism.

They proudly say we must use Origen’s, rather than God’s, words for the Trinity to be orthodox! They will not come out an ssay this, but truly they believe this.

Scripture teaches one God. There is only one Supreme Being (Deut 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; Isr Cor 4:8-6).

God is self-subsistent and independent of others; He is eternal in both directions (Ex 3:14; Ps 90:2).

The nature of God is that complete collection of attributes that makes Him distinctly God (Gal 4:8).

Please note: Three Persons participate in this single Divine nature without any degree of difference whatsoever.

The three Persons are the Highest, the Word, and the Spirit (Luke 1:32; John 1:1; Isaiah 48:16). And the three Persons are the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Matt 3:16-17; 28:19-20; II Cor 13:14). And they are Spirit, Lord, and God (I Cor 12:4-6), or Ancient of Days and Son of man (Dan 7:13).

So, the doctrine of a three-in-one God is revealed plainly in Scripture (I John 5:7), though begotten god advocates deny this glorious testimony in their annual Holy Bible sequels.

Please note: The Word and Spirit are wholly “I AM THAT I AM.” The Word is not what the Father begat! The Word, who became flesh in the Lord Jesus Christ, was fully God (John 1:1 cp Colossians 2:9). The Word is the first, second and third person of the Godhead, as far as their Divine nature goes. I do not know how to make this any clearer.

On the other hand, it seems you proclaim that as long as God was Jesus was on earth, He was absent from heaven.

Oh no, impossible~God is a Spirit that lives in eternity, always has, always will, this can never change, impossible.

Now, I will say this, while Jesus was on earth, he also was IN HEAVEN as the I AM THAT I AM!

John 3:13​

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

I trust I have made this a little plainer for you. I agree with Paul:

1st Timothy 3:16​

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”