Which happens first, regeneration or justification?

[Carbon]

A person is certainly elect from before the foundation of the world because God knows who he is sending his Son to die for. But a person is not justified until they are justified. As you said, it is a legal ruling. They are not justified until the work that Jesus did on the cross is applied to them. They have always been the sheep, but they must be gathered by the Shepherd into the flock.

Justification is by faith in the person and work in Christ. The work of Christ is applied to a person by the Holy Spirit in an act of regeneration. Three things happen and they happen in an order, all at the same time, but are distinct. Regeneration, faith, justification.

Amen!

 

[Carbon]

Not quite true. The sin is forgiven, it is not eliminated. The sin of the one justified is not counted against him. As I said, God does not declare him not guilty; rather God declares him to be free from the penalty deserved.

God declares him righteous. Do a word study on righteous.

 

[Carbon]

Regeneration and justification are both acts of God. Faith is the act of the one being regenerated and justified. Believing is something we do.

Who said it isn't our faith?

 

[Carbon]

I would say we are first regenerated, in which faith is created by which we are justified.

Sure. Through regeneration, we are given the gift with the new nature, therefore we then have the capasity to believe.

 

[Carbon]

It would seem the union is a work of faith.

Nope, the union causes regeneration and then faith.

Christ faithfully working in dying mankind .

I disagree. Man is already dead spiritually, not dying.

 

[makesends]

JIM said:
To be justified thus does not mean that God treats me just as if I’d never sinned, but rather just as if I’d already paid my penalty.

God treats the believer as though he has no sin because JESUS DID pay their penalty.

@JIM
Because Jesus was their substitute, and his righteousness applied/imputed to them, their legal position with God is as if they had not even sinned.

 

[JIM]

God declares him righteous. Do a word study on righteous.

I have. To be justified is to be declared righteous. Justification is the imputed righteousness of God. It is a legal act by God, releasing the believer from serving the sentence of eternal condemnation for his sins. Justification is an act of God performed at one and the same time as regeneration. Both occur when the repentant believer is baptized for the forgiveness of sins and is given the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

If you wish to get into the weeds of the similarity and meanings of the Greek words for justification and righteousness, we can do that.

 

[JIM]

Who said it isn't our faith?

So many who insist on the incorrect KJV versions of Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:22 and Philippians 3:9.

 

[JIM]

JIM said:
To be justified thus does not mean that God treats me just as if I’d never sinned, but rather just as if I’d already paid my penalty.

@JIM
Because Jesus was their substitute, and his righteousness applied/imputed to them, their legal position with God is as if they had not even sinned.

It is not a declaration of not guilty. That would be dishonest.

When you forgive someone for an offense against you, you are not treating them as if it didn't happen. You are acknowledging that it did happen, and you are giving up any claim against them for the offense. That difference is not moot.

 

[Red Baker]

But a person is not justified until they are justified. As you said, it is a legal ruling. They are not justified until the work that Jesus did on the cross is applied to them. They have always been the sheep, but they must be gathered by the Shepherd into the flock.

Greetings Arial~Great to see you posting in this thread, the more, the better. After a meeting, I want to address this point more in depth.

 

[Mr GLee]

Nope, the union causes regeneration and then faith.

I disagree. Man is already dead spiritually, not dying.

Faith as the labor of Christ love is regeneration.

We carry out the wage of sin. In dying mankind comes to a end .

One appointment to die

No double jeapordy.

 

[Red Baker]

Who said it isn't our faith?

The word of God does~as far as legally speaking, our sins being forgiven as far as the east is from the west, etc.

So many who insist on the incorrect KJV versions of Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:22 and Philippians 3:9.

Do not blame the translators, and those believer's who believe that which is written~those and more, are the testimony of God' Spirit.

It is by the obedience of one person, JESUS CHRIST, the Son of God, who is the LORD our righteousness, who lived as a surety for the elect of God.

Jeremiah 23:6​

“In his days Judah (Jews) shall be saved, and Israel (Gentiles) shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

Romans 5:19​

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Romans 3:22​

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”

 

[Mr GLee]

Who said it isn't our faith?

It is our new born again faith as "Let there be" good power. He is the storeroom of faith (power) he gives us little.

Christ in us working to both give us his understanding and power to do it to His good pleasure of his own faith .

Faith "let there be" is a work ' No "let there be" then no it was good. law of faith)

A mixture of the temporal historical and the unseen eternal .No mix no faith (Faith the unsen things of God

Philipians2: 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Jesus did the will of the father empowered by the Father without murmuring Unlike JOna he murured al the way and wanted to die .Hopin God was a racist.

 

[JIM]

Romans 5:19
“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

But like so many, you have failed to understand what Romans 5:19 is even about. It is not discussing the righteousness or the justification of the believer. That is taken up in the next chapter. For as the many made sinners were made so at or before birth, so the many shall be made righteous at or before birth. That understanding of the verse is demanded by the "for as -- so" grammatical construction of the sentence. That is true also for verse 18. And that is consistent with the fact highlighted in verse 17 that the effect of Jesus' obedience was much more effective that the effect of the offence of Adam.

That verse as well as the entire passage of Romans 5:12-19 is a rebuttal to the false doctrine of Original Sin. In other words, one of the things that resulted from the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ was the negation of any effect of Adam's sin upon the rest of mankind. That of course, like the rest of the results of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, was retroactive back to the very beginning. Thus, the negation of any effect of Adam's sin upon his descendants is in perfect harmony with God declaration recorded in Ezekiel 18, summarized in verses 4 and 18.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

That is true of every father and son including Adam and his sons, and their sons, and their sons, and all the rest of every fathers and their sons that have ever lived or will ever live.

 

[Mr GLee]

But like so many, you have failed to understand what Romans 5:19 is even about. It is not discussing the righteousness or the justification of the believer. That is taken up in the next chapter. For as the many made sinners were made so at or before birth, so the many shall be made righteous at or before birth. That understanding of the verse is demanded by the "for as -- so" grammatical construction of the sentence. That is true also for verse 18. And that is consistent with the fact highlighted in verse 17 that the effect of Jesus' obedience was much more effective that the effect of the offence of Adam.

I would (offer)..

Romans 5:19-20 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law (letter death) entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace . (Through Christ's labor of love or called work of His faith, the unseen eternal things) did much more abound:

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Christ the just and justifier

The law of faith . . ."Let there be" . .and its testimony "was good". The faithful testimony. The testimony of moving power

 

[prism]

Sure. Through regeneration, we are given the gift with the new nature, therefore we then have the capasity to believe.

I was just answering the op's question. I've heard some 'reformed' say justification happens before faith. That may be true in the mind of God, but we don't have His mind (knowledge).

 

[Arial]

Regeneration and justification are both acts of God. Faith is the act of the one being regenerated and justified. Believing is something we do.

Yes, believing is something we do but we believe because we have been born again, born from above. Then we hear and believe. You have confused sanctification with regeneration, even though you have denied this. If we believe (have faith) first as you claim (at least that is my understanding of what you have said in the past) then the new birth is no longer grace, no longer of God from above, but a reward God is required to give you.

And if God regenerated only those he knew would believe on their own from their own faith, then what we would have is the opposite of everything the Bible teaches about it. It would be we love God first and then he loves us. It would violate the entire principle of adoption. It would be a person choosing to be adopted and then God being obligated to adopt them. It would make the person the first cause of their own salvation.

 

[Mr GLee]

I was just answering the op's question. I've heard some 'reformed' say justification happens before faith. That may be true in the mind of God, but we don't have His mind (knowledge).

Believers are justified by his work of faith or labor of Let there be love .

It works in us to both reveal His will and empower dying mankind to perform it to his good. . . Let there be pleasure .

Faith= power. .

 

[Carbon]

I was just answering the op's question. I've heard some 'reformed' say justification happens before faith. That may be true in the mind of God, but we don't have His mind (knowledge).

I think some have good intentions but they confuse things. You are right, in God's mind what Christ has done is infallible, but as far as we go, as @Arial has said, we have to wait until it is applied to us. As scripture teaches we are justified by faith.

Then there are those who cry we try to make it that God believes for us. And then they say, we have to believe for ourselves as if they have to correct us (strawman). But consider what they say, "Justification happens before faith?" I think they are very confused. Scripture teaches we are justified by faith, and it is our faith, not God believing for us.

Martin Luther believed justification by faith alone is the doctrine on which the church stands or falls.
Luther believed that the doctrine of justification by faith alone is so important that if the church loses it, it loses Christianity. He believed that without this doctrine, the church has no reason to exist and falls into apostasy.

When someone starts messing this up, it's a serious problem.

 

[Carbon]

Yes, believing is something we do but we believe because we have been born again, born from above. Then we hear and believe. You have confused sanctification with regeneration, even though you have denied this. If we believe (have faith) first as you claim (at least that is my understanding of what you have said in the past) then the new birth is no longer grace, no longer of God from above, but a reward God is required to give you.

And if God regenerated only those he knew would believe on their own from their own faith, then what we would have is the opposite of everything the Bible teaches about it. It would be we love God first and then he loves us. It would violate the entire principle of adoption. It would be a person choosing to be adopted and then God being obligated to adopt them. It would make the person the first cause of their own salvation.

Amen!