Can the Logical and Temporal Orders be the same?

[ReverendRV]

When one receives the new birth, he is saved. https://christcentered.community.fo...on-system-and-the-altar-call.2240/post-117449

Can a person receive the new birth without being forgiven? https://christcentered.community.fo...on-system-and-the-altar-call.2240/post-117461

Can Regeneration and Forgiveness happen at the same time, and both be First without one being second?

Can The New Birth and Justification through Faith both happen in the twinkling of an eye simultaneously, in a way we cannot experientially know which came first?

 

[Rescued One]

John 3:16-18
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Ephesians 2
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

I don't picture God saving us without forgiving us. And I can't save myself.

 

[ReverendRV]

When one receives the new birth, he is saved. https://christcentered.community.fo...on-system-and-the-altar-call.2240/post-117449

Can a person receive the new birth without being forgiven? https://christcentered.community.fo...on-system-and-the-altar-call.2240/post-117461

Can Regeneration and Forgiveness happen at the same time, and both be First without one being second?

Can The New Birth and Justification through Faith both happen in the twinkling of an eye simultaneously, in a way we cannot experientially know which came first?

I have a viewpoint that they both can be first in Order without one being second in Order. In Horse Racing, sometimes we need a Photo Finish. In rare occasions, there are two winners. The third horse finishes in third place; but there is no Second Place; because the two front horses finish in First Place. Why? Because it's too close to call. God knows which horse finished first; but what if he Decreed both horses finished simultaneously? Both would be first; neither would be second. This is the way the Temporal Order is; the required elements to be Saved in a moment occur simultaneously. They're all First; IE Grace, Regeneration and Faith...

I have another example for later...

 

[ReverendRV]

Since the Temporal Order is simultaneous, what are we really debating about? The Temporal Order has to be distinct from the Logical Order; how? Regarding the Order in Time. Some requirements happen at the same time. When things happen at the same Time, does the Logical Order really matter?

 

[Hazelelponi]

1.) I vividly remember my calling—a distinct moment prompting me to seek someone who could explain salvation in Christ. It was a clear starting point for me, no getting around it even a little.

2.) I believe I was regenerated when my husband prayed over me. That moment changed everything (clear mind) so that I was able to clearly consider everything.

3.) A couple years after that I came into full confessional faith, fully trusting Christ in repentance and belief.

For me, these stages—calling, regeneration, and conversion—were separate and deeply experiential.
Do others miss feeling all these stages distinctly? Absolutely. Some experience salvation without clear, conscious moments for each step.

Theologians like Berkhof and Grudem emphasize that God doesn’t forgive sins before justification, which happens when we confess faith (Eph. 1:7, ESV: “In him we have… the forgiveness of our trespasses”).

Can God make it all happen in a flash? You bet. The logical order (calling, regeneration, faith) is just that—logical. God can orchestrate these steps in rapid succession, like a divine photo finish as you pointed out, as His sovereign grace decrees.

Was there a controversy?

 

[ReverendRV]

1.) I vividly remember my calling—a distinct moment prompting me to seek someone who could explain salvation in Christ. It was a clear starting point for me, no getting around it even a little.

2.) I believe I was regenerated when my husband prayed over me. That moment changed everything (clear mind) so that I was able to clearly consider everything.

3.) A couple years after that I came into full confessional faith, fully trusting Christ in repentance and belief.

For me, these stages—calling, regeneration, and conversion—were separate and deeply experiential.
Do others miss feeling all these stages distinctly? Absolutely. Some experience salvation without clear, conscious moments for each step.

Theologians like Berkhof and Grudem emphasize that God doesn’t forgive sins before justification, which happens when we confess faith (Eph. 1:7, ESV: “In him we have… the forgiveness of our trespasses”).

Can God make it all happen in a flash? You bet. The logical order (calling, regeneration, faith) is just that—logical. God can orchestrate these steps in rapid succession, like a divine photo finish as you pointed out, as His sovereign grace decrees.

Was there a controversy?

Yeah, Justification through Faith is what I call 'Salvation Proper'. I think Justification and Forgiveness happen in the twinkling of an eye. We Logically know that Justification occurs before Forgiveness; but I believe both are First in the Temporal Order...

I may give my other example for no 2nd, 3rd etc place in the Temporal Order tonight, but it's getting late for me...


If there is no Second Place, Faith and Grace are in a Photo Finish for First Place...

 

[Hazelelponi]

Yeah, Justification through Faith is what I call 'Salvation Proper'. I think Justification and Forgiveness happen in the twinkling of an eye. We Logically know that Justification occurs before Forgiveness; but I believe both are First in the Temporal Order...

I may give my other example for no 2nd, 3rd etc place in the Temporal Order tonight, but it's getting late for me...

Talk later then, goodnight brother.

 

[ReverendRV]

Talk later then, goodnight brother.

My third example is a doozy...

 

[Hazelelponi]

My third example is a doozy...

I'm excited to read...

 

[prism]

When one receives the new birth, he is saved. https://christcentered.community.fo...on-system-and-the-altar-call.2240/post-117449

Can a person receive the new birth without being forgiven? https://christcentered.community.fo...on-system-and-the-altar-call.2240/post-117461

Can Regeneration and Forgiveness happen at the same time, and both be First without one being second?

Can The New Birth and Justification through Faith both happen in the twinkling of an eye simultaneously, in a way we cannot experientially know which came first?

1. Yes
2. No
3.Maybe
4. No: There is no faith without the new birth.

 

[ReverendRV]

1. Yes
2. No
3.Maybe
4. No: There is no faith without the new birth.

That's the point of the Thread; it asks if they're Concurrent in Time, not in Logic. Being Concurrent, both are First. You said Yes to number one...

Just woke. Heading to work...

 

[Arial]

I have a viewpoint that they both can be first in Order without one being second in Order. In Horse Racing, sometimes we need a Photo Finish. In rare occasions, there are two winners. The third horse finishes in third place; but there is no Second Place; because the two front horses finish in First Place. Why? Because it's too close to call. God knows which horse finished first; but what if he Decreed both horses finished simultaneously? Both would be first; neither would be second. This is the way the Temporal Order is; the required elements to be Saved in a moment occur simultaneously. They're all First; IE Grace, Regeneration and Faith...

I have another example for later...

Together but distinct. They are all occurrences within the same thing. Salvation.

 

[Arial]

Here is the example from my brother's conversion. He was born again seven years before me, and like me, he began in the A'ist camp. So he thought it was saying a prayer of invitation to Jesus or submission to him was the thing that made the union of salvation happen. At some point when he was reading the Bible, having asked God to show him the truth, he did believe that Jesus is who the Bible says he is and he did what it says he did. However, he was getting ready to go on vacation, traveling by car from the Midwest to California where I lived at the time. He was a guy who could get pretty rowdy and "party" a lot, so he told himself he wouldn't say the prayer until after he returned from vacation. Like many of us, he viewed Christianity as a religion where you have to give up all the "fun" stuff, in his case, that mainly involved alcohol.

He told me this story twenty some years after the fact, and after we had both become Reformed. My instant reply was, "But you were already saved when you believed and on that whole vacation and every minute since you believed." He laughed. "Yep" he said.

 

[Arial]

When one receives the new birth, he is saved. https://christcentered.community.fo...on-system-and-the-altar-call.2240/post-117449

Can a person receive the new birth without being forgiven? https://christcentered.community.fo...on-system-and-the-altar-call.2240/post-117461

Can Regeneration and Forgiveness happen at the same time, and both be First without one being second?

Can The New Birth and Justification through Faith both happen in the twinkling of an eye simultaneously, in a way we cannot experientially know which came first?

learn.ligonier.org/devotionals/order-salvation

Adoption also happens at the same time as regeneration. Regeneration can be said to be first, Jesus says it is necessary in John 3, in the sense that none of the rest will happen unless that happens.

I have come to think that it is possible for a person to have all the blessings of regeneration, before they even know that they do. This is not true in all cases, and if you survey the many examples of conversion by individuals, we discover that they are just that---- individual. Always perfect for the individual person and God's purpose and the person's need. It is only spoken and described from a human POV. For some, it may appear to have taken place over time and the conversion experience, when the person makes confession, when they first recognize that they have faith, was really there all along, as small as a mustard seed, but just as effective in the full content of salvation, as the tree. It is enough to move a mountain, break chains, and save to the fullest. It has been planted, by God, in good soil. This would explain the yearning, and looking, and listening to the things of God, that some mistakenly take to mean all men have the capacity to do that. The unredeemed , the natural man, does not do that, according to the Word of God.

Our confession is just our confession of what God has done, not when he did it, even thought that is what it looks like from our perspective.

I love God! He alone is awesome!

 

[prism]

That's the point of the Thread; it asks if they're Concurrent in Time, not in Logic. Being Concurrent, both are First. You said Yes to number one...

Here is #1, as I saw it, "When one receives the new birth, he is saved", I said 'yes' because of the word 'when', which introduces a 'time' element. (we live in the land of time, not eternity.)

 

[ReverendRV]

learn.ligonier.org/devotionals/order-salvation

Adoption also happens at the same time as regeneration. Regeneration can be said to be first, Jesus says it is necessary in John 3, in the sense that none of the rest will happen unless that happens.

I have come to think that it is possible for a person to have all the blessings of regeneration, before they even know that they do.

That's what I'm getting at; on to my second example...

The Temporal Order is like the old clock face of a wrist watch; it has the hour hand, the minute hand and the second hand. The Temporal Order is one moment in Time; let's say twelve midnight. The hands are standing Still, on the 12. Since Adoption happens at the same time that Regeneration happens, they are both on the same Second Hand of the Clock. This means they are both the First aspect of Salvation. Put other Requirements on the same Second Hand, things like Justification through Faith; these would also be first. There is no Second, Third, etc Place on the One Second Hand

This is where the Logical Order kicks in; all aspects of Salvation are Like Lego Blocks stacked on the Second Hand. Of course, Grace would be stacked first, then Faith is stacked; building a column. All of the requirements needed at the moment of Salvation are stacked on the Second Hand. This is like the X and Y Axis of a graph. The X Axis is the base horizontal axis like a ticking Clock face, and the Y Axis is like the Vertical Axis of the stack of Legos. The Second Hand is the Temporal Order, and the Y Axis is the Logical Order...

This means that Faith and Grace occur at the same time. Only Special Revelation divulges the Logical Order...