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Which happens first, regeneration or justification?

Jim, man's faith is not part of him being (as in the process of) justified legally, since faith is a work on our part, as I said above more than once. Since faith is a work commanded by even the law of God, it cannot have any saving virtue in a regenerating sense.
I do not think that you can find a requirement to believe in Jesus Christ anywhere in the law. If I am wrong about that, please show me where in the law I might find it.

Moreover, I do not claim that faith has any saving virtue in the regenerating sense. Regeneration is and only is the work of God. Nevertheless, counter to your beliefs, faith is a condition stated for whom God does regenerate.
 
It is not the same with God as it is with parent and child. The reason the believer is declared not guilty is because Jesus bore our sins on the cross.

Col 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your tespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with it legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

1 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Pet 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.


Many interpretive mistakes and wrong doctrinal views come from comparing God to man. Forgiven but guilty is an oxymoron.
None of that says that the sin was removed. The only thing removed was the required payment of the penalty of eternal condemnation for committing the sin. And in Col 2, the debt wasn't removed, only the record of it was removed.

And by the way, if you had backed up a bit and included verse 11 and 12 of Colossians 2 you would have seen there that it was by "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead" that you were regenerated.
 
I do not think that you can find a requirement to believe in Jesus Christ anywhere in the law. If I am wrong about that, please show me where in the law I might find it.

Moreover, I do not claim that faith has any saving virtue in the regenerating sense. Regeneration is and only is the work of God. Nevertheless, counter to your beliefs, faith is a condition stated for whom God does regenerate.

Romans 10:6-8​

“But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;”

Deuteronomy 30:11-14​

“For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.”

Jim, apart from the grace of God, no man has the power within him to have faith that Moses preached and taught the people.~which is the same as Paul preached in Romans 10. But, only those quickened to life, can hear, believe, and obey.

Matthew 23:23​

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”

1st John 3:23​

“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”

Isaiah 53:1​

“Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?”
 
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Romans 10:6-8​

“But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;”
You are giving me NT, not the law of moses.

Deuteronomy 30:11-14​

“For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.”

Jim, apart from the grace of God, no man has the power within him to have faith that Moses preached and taught the people.~which is the same as Paul preached in Romans 10. But, only those quickened to life, can hear, believe, and obey.
Nothing there about having faith in Jesus.

Matthew 23:23​

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”
A better translation:

Mat 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

1st John 3:23​

“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”
Again that is gospel not law of Moses.

Isaiah 53:1​

“Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?”
Again, nothing there about faith in Jesus.
 
You are giving me NT, not the law of Moses.
Jim, I gave you Romans 10 ~so, you could compare it with what Moses wrote, almost word for word~well, actually it was, only Paul gave the sense to Moses' teaching by adding Christ to what he quoted from Moses.
A better translation:

Mat 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
Oh please Jim! Faith is what the Lord Jesus said~ by changing it to faithfulness, would be accursing Christ of using redundant speech~since justice and mercy is connected with us being faithful.

I used Isaiah 53:1 to show you that in order to have faith, the arm of the Lord must be revealed to that person, or else, they could not believe.
 
Oh please Jim! Faith is what the Lord Jesus said~ by changing it to faithfulness, would be accursing Christ of using redundant speech~since justice and mercy is connected with us being faithful.
I didn't change it, I just used a better translation.
I used Isaiah 53:1 to show you that in order to have faith, the arm of the Lord must be revealed to that person, or else, they could not believe.
And the Lord revealed all to us through His Word, the Bible. But again, there is nothing in the law about faith in Jesus Christ. The whole message of Jesus Christ is what Paul referred to as a mystery, since it had not been revealed before the coming of Jesus Christ.
 
The answer depends on the definitions of the terms "regeneration" and "justification."
 
And the Lord revealed all to us through His Word, the Bible. But again, there is nothing in the law about faith in Jesus Christ. The whole message of Jesus Christ is what Paul referred to as a mystery, since it had not been revealed before the coming of Jesus Christ.

Faith as power is a work .Let there be". . . . " good kind

The law (Bible) the letter as it is written "death"

It must be mixed with the spiritual not seen and not the historical temporal alone or no gospel rest (Hebrew 4:1-2 )

Romans 2:26-28 King James Version Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision (death) dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; (what the eyes see). neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, (The letter)and the( unseen spirit of the letter ) justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Again the letter, historical literal death and the invisible spiritual life must be mixed .

The whole time there were kings in Israel (abomination of desolation ) God used that period as a parable of the unseen spiritual things of Christ.
 
None of that says that the sin was removed. The only thing removed was the required payment of the penalty of eternal condemnation for committing the sin. And in Col 2, the debt wasn't removed, only the record of it was removed.
If our sins were nailed to the cross, they were removed. The believer was "washed by the blood of Jesus."

Ps 51:2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity and cleans me from my sin.
7. Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.


There is that word "regeneration" again, which puts regeneration necessary first. However, to deal with your assertion that Col only speaks of a debt not being removed but only the record of it was removed---- if it wasn't removed, the record would still be there.
And by the way, if you had backed up a bit and included verse 11 and 12 of Colossians 2 you would have seen there that it was by "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead" that you were regenerated.
How does that justify your position that regeneration is the result of faith?
 
How does that justify your position that regeneration is the result of faith?
A person would have to ask.

Is faith a work of power?

Why did the apostles request Christ the husband to increase it? (faith)
 
If our sins were nailed to the cross, they were removed. The believer was "washed by the blood of Jesus."
It is the record, not the sins, that was cancelled.
Ps 51:2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity and cleans me from my sin.
7. Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
So then if you take that literally, then all that is needed is to be purified with hyssop. Good luck with that.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

There is that word "regeneration" again, which puts regeneration necessary first. However, to deal with your assertion that Col only speaks of a debt not being removed but only the record of it was removed---- if it wasn't removed, the record would still be there.
Washing and renewing are connected with the conjunction "and". Logically it is equivalent to renewing and washing. But no matter, both occur at the same instant in time in the life of the one being saved.
How does that justify your position that regeneration is the result of faith?
I didn't say regeneration is the result of faith. It says "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were raised with Him THROUGH faith". The very next verse identifies that as regeneration and justification. Being made alive is regeneration. Having forgiven us all our trespasses is Justification.

If regeneration is through faith, then it cannot be that faith is a result of regeneration.

If someone tells you he received his college degree through hard work and lots of study, you wouldn't conclude that his college degree produced the work and study.

In addition, the word "through" in verse12 is from the Greek word διά [dia]. That word is, according to Strong's, a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act.

Thayer goes into some detail as to its meaning. He says:

Thayer Definition:
1) through
1a) of place
1a1) with
1a2) in
1b) of time
1b1) throughout
1b2) during
1c) of means
1c1) by
1c2) by the means of
2) through
2a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
2a1) by reason of
2a2) on account of
2a3) because of for this reason
2a4) therefore
2a5) on this accoun
t

There is no way to interpret any of that as regeneration then faith. It demands faith then regeneration.
 
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It is the record, not the sins, that was cancelled.
You already said that and I showed it wasn't true. Now, address what I did say.
So then if you take that literally, then all that is needed is to be purified with hyssop. Good luck with that.
Belligerent. Ridicule. Mockery of the word of God. The use of hyssop was a requirement of cleansing rituals in the law. And the subject was the removal of sins---there being washed away. Removed iow.
Washing and renewing are connected with the conjunction "and". Logically it is equivalent to renewing and washing. But no matter, both occur at the same instant in time in the life of the one being saved.
An example of trying to twist the word of God to no avail. If you relate it to what it I related it to, then we are washed of our sins---there are removed.
I didn't say regeneration is the result of faith.
You have said that faith comes before regeneration and that is what we are talking about.
If regeneration is through faith, then it cannot be that faith is a result of regeneration.
Regeneration isn't through faith.
If someone tells you he received his college degree through hard work and lots of study, you wouldn't conclude that his college degree produced the work and study.
No I wouldn't, but we are not talking about college degrees. We are not even talking about earthly things but rather, spiritual things. Do you not understand spiritual things?
Thayer goes into some detail as to its meaning. He says:

Thayer Definition:
1) through
1a) of place
1a1) with
1a2) in
1b) of time
1b1) throughout
1b2) during
1c) of means
1c1) by
1c2) by the means of
2) through
2a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
2a1) by reason of
2a2) on account of
2a3) because of for this reason
2a4) therefore
2a5) on this accoun
t
Total red herring.
There is no way to interpret any of that as regeneration then faith. It demands faith then regeneration.
How about "through". If it demands faith before regeneration it would be demanding an impossibility. No matter what you think about it.
 
It is the record, not the sins, that was cancelled.
The record of sin. (eternal damnation) .

One appointment
didn't say regeneration is the result of faith. It says "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were raised with Him THROUGH faith".
Faith is the work of Christ
 
How about "through". If it demands faith before regeneration it would be demanding an impossibility. No matter what you think about it.
Only under your warped soteriology. It is obvious that you are in error. Both Ephesians 1:13-14 and Colossians 2:12-13 establishes regeneration through faith, meaning faith precedes regeneration. There is not a single passage that establishes faith through regeneration.
 
The answer depends on the definitions of the terms "regeneration" and "justification."
Justification~Is an immanent act in God, it is an act of his grace towards his elect. Justification is wholly without them, therefore, with their faith, justification entirely resides in the divine mind, and lies in his estimating, accounting, and constituting them righteous, through the righteousness of his Son, their surety; and, as such, did not first commence in time, but from eternity, all according to his purpose which he purposed in Himself.

(As a side not, I would like for anyone to explain to me, how God was a friend of Abraham before Christ actually paid for his sins, not only Abraham, but all of the children of God mentioned is the OT testament before Christ actually paid the sin debt they owed God's law. David knew that God justified the ungodly based upon what God had purposed to do through his Son ~ being also the son of David ~ and David even described this blessing that he enjoyed THEN while he lived.)

All the elect of God were justified in Christ, their Head and Representative, when he rose from the dead, and therefore in time would believe, unless they died as an infant, or were mentally unable to do so, which some have and some are. Christ engaged as a Surety for all his people from eternity, had their sins imputed to him then, and for which he made himself responsible; in the fulness of time he was made of a woman, made under the law, for the sole purpose to make full satisfaction for them by his life, sufferings and death, and at his resurrection was acquitted and discharged, as though they never sinned ~ now as he suffered and died, not as a private, but as a public person, so he rose again, and was justified as such, even as the representative of his people; hence when he rose, they rose with him; and when he was justified, they were justified in him; for he was "delivered for their offences, and was raised again for their justification.

Romans 4:25​

“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”

Not one thing was left undone for us to do, to make this immanent act of God secured, final, safely imparted to the elect of God.

Ephesians 2:4-7​

“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.”
 
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Only under your warped soteriology. It is obvious that you are in error. Both Ephesians 1:13-14 and Colossians 2:12-13 establishes regeneration through faith, meaning faith precedes regeneration. There is not a single passage that establishes faith through regeneration.
Yes. . . . "let there be faith" and testimony of the power "was good ".The law of faith.( unseen eternal)

Faith is power. We are powerless without Christ let there be working in us.

Powerless no power none nada

Job 26: How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength?

Does he need help from the peanut gallery?
 
But again, there is nothing in the law about faith in Jesus Christ. The whole message of Jesus Christ is what Paul referred to as a mystery, since it had not been revealed before the coming of Jesus Christ.
Jim, you my friend are so wrong. The mystery hidden in the OT is that Jews and Gentiles were to come together to make ONE HOLY TEMPLE for an habitation of God through the Spirit!

Ephesians 2:22​

“In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

Jim all through the OT they speak of ONE PERSON coming into the world to died for Jews and Gentiles.

John 5:39​

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”
 
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I didn't change it, I just used a better translation.

And the Lord revealed all to us through His Word, the Bible. But again, there is nothing in the law about faith in Jesus Christ. The whole message of Jesus Christ is what Paul referred to as a mystery, since it had not been revealed before the coming of Jesus Christ.

Genesis the foundation of doctrines that fall like rain and can produce growth

The mystery of faith the unseen eternal things of Christ. First revealed to Abel .

The Lord by His mercy mixed with grace had respect on Abel dying mankind . The beginning of the two seed mystery of faith. The invisible things of Christ yoked with us sons of God

Genesis 4: 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Establishing the law dying mankind must be born again by the seed (Christ) First spoken of in Genesis 3:15. God replaced Abel with another second born seed Enos:. . . . . then began men to call upon the name of the Lord. The seed all the way down until the birth of the Son of Man, Jesus

Many attribute it (must be born again) as a new testament principle and not one that began in when the lord had respect, looked on (grace)
 
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