Which happens first, regeneration or justification?

[JIM]

Romans 8:29
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

So many make the same mistake you have made in bypassing verse 28 in discussing verses 29 and 30. The "For" in verse 29 is from the Greek "hoti" and is used as a causitve "because" and reverts back to verse 28 referring to "them that love God". Those whom He did foreknow are specifically those who love God. It is those whom He predestined.

 

[Binyawmene]

you sound like a Calvinist.

But I've been called 'hyper' on many occasions.

 

[Red Baker]

Just as an aside, I would note that there is no other justification than legal. Justification is a legal term. It is a declaration. In the case of God's justification of the repentant believer, it is God imputing His own righteousness to the believer.

Jim, for now consider John Gill's words on how justification is used in two senses:

Justification is by many divines distinguished into active and passive. Active justification is the act of God; it is God that justifies. Passive justification is the act of God, terminating on the conscience of a believer, commonly called a transient act, passing upon an external object.

Taken from: Justification as an Eternal and Immanent Act of God - John Gill.

 

[makesends]

And here we see one of the real problems with the doctrine of monergism. For the monergist, one is left with no real evidence of being regenerated. It is completely left to a "gut feeling"; it is strictly "I have the feeling that I was born again". The monergist is stuck with the inability to actually answer, with scripture, "Which happens first, regeneration or justification?" The monergist has nothing but that "sixth sense", that "intuitive sensation", that "gut feeling", that "bright light of awareness" that he was regenerated.

HA! As opposed to ...what? Complete your statement.

 

[JIM]

HA! As opposed to ...what? Complete your statement.

Biblical.

 

[JIM]

Jim, for now consider John Gill's words on how justification is used in two senses:

Justification is by many divines distinguished into active and passive. Active justification is the act of God; it is God that justifies. Passive justification is the act of God, terminating on the conscience of a believer, commonly called a transient act, passing upon an external object.

Taken from: Justification as an Eternal and Immanent Act of God - John Gill.

We may think of justification both as a specific act of God upon the sinner by virtue of which the sinner passes from the lost state to the saved state, and as the continuing state in which the saved person exists. The Christian may say both “I have been justified” (the act), and “I am justified” (the state).

The best way for a Christian to understand what it means to be justified is to picture himself as a defendant standing in a courtroom before God as the presiding Judge, and to hear God pronounce his verdict: “No penalty for you!” Many will say that God’s judicial declaration is “Not guilty!” but I do not accept this. Justification does not remove our guilt, but it deals with it by removing the condemnation that goes with it (Rom 8:1). Thus the Judge’s precise declaration is “No penalty for you!” To be justified thus does not mean that God treats me just as if I’d never sinned, but rather just as if I’d already paid my penalty.

Basically justification is the same as forgiveness of sins, remission of sins, and the washing away of sins (in the sense that God removes them from the books and does not hold them against us). This becomes clear as we follow Paul’s line of thought from Rom 3:27 through Rom 4:8. After asserting the fact of and using the language of justification throughout this passage, Paul proves his point by citing Ps 32:1-2, “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD will not take into account.” This shows that justification and forgiveness are one and the same. God justifies sinners by forgiving them, by not holding their sins against them.

 

[Binyawmene]

question.

Is regeneration resistible, or irresistible?

My position is that grace is irresistible, so the whole of salvation is monergistic in nature.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

Created in Christ: Basically, Christ comes in a sinner. The Union of Christ logical occurs before regeneration. He regenerates (or made alive) the soul/spirit which is a new nature from depravity, and we received the gift of faith. By that gift of faith, we are able to believe, for the forgiveness of sin and imputed of righteousness in our justification. That is, the moment you surrender your life to Christ. Logically, justification precedes sanctification. Temporally, they occur simultaneously. After you was saved then you received impartation or supernaturally created holiness or the sanctification in our new nature by the Holy Spirit.

a). Imputed Righteousness (our standing "Right-standing before God")
b). Imparted Holiness (our separation "God set you aside for a special purpose")
c). Adoption (our position "God identifies you as his children")

 

[Carbon]

Any quote was backup with reference given~now, that does not necessarily mean we would agree with all of what those godly men taught, but would with what we quoted. I'm going back today and read his work on Justification

Maybe you misunderstood him the.

 

[Carbon]

But I've been called 'hyper' on many occasions.

I think many Calvinists have

 

[Carbon]

My position is that grace is irresistible, so the whole of salvation is monergistic in nature.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

Created in Christ: Basically, Christ comes in a sinner. The Union of Christ logical occurs before regeneration. He regenerates (or made alive) the soul/spirit which is a new nature from depravity, and we received the gift of faith. By that gift of faith, we are able to believe, for the forgiveness of sin and imputed of righteousness in our justification. That is, the moment you surrender your life to Christ. Logically, justification precedes sanctification. Temporally, they occur simultaneously. After you was saved then you received impartation or supernaturally created holiness or the sanctification in our new nature by the Holy Spirit.

a). Imputed Righteousness (our standing "Right-standing before God")
b). Imparted Holiness (our separation "God set you aside for a special purpose")
c). Adoption (our position "God identifies you as his children")

Amen!

 

[makesends]

Biblical.

I.e. "Synergism"?

 

[JIM]

I.e. "Synergism"?

I wouldn't call it that, but if that is what you wish to call it, that is up to you of course.

 

[Red Baker]

We may think of justification both as a specific act of God upon the sinner by virtue of which the sinner passes from the lost state to the saved state, and as the continuing state in which the saved person exists. The Christian may say both “I have been justified” (the act), and “I am justified” (the state).

Jim, I'll come back to this later, tomorrow, today is full. Some things you said I may agree, some I cannot~what is highlighted in dark bold letters, I cannot.

Jim, the Christian can say I was justified eternally by being chosen in Christ, and given to him, legally by the life, and death and resurrection of Christ~Romans 4:25 vitally, when the Spirit regenerates us and in time which gives peace to our hearts~Romans 5:1;; and practically, during our lifetime by good works, before others~James 2; and shall be before the great white throne judgement seat before all.... Matthew 25, etc.

Concerning James 2:

James 2:24​

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

Works and faith are spoken of in the same sense in which a child of God is justified~As "an evidence only", not as a means, channel in which one is legally justified before God. Only the life, death, and resurrection of Christ makes us the righteousness of God. Once a child of God is created after the image of Christ in the new birth, then, from that point forward, they can believe, and please God by offering spiritual sacrifices unto him that will be accepted, but not until then.

 

[JIM]

Jim, I'll come back to this later, tomorrow, today is full. Some things you said I may agree, some I cannot~what is highlighted in dark bold letters.

Jim, the Christian can say I was justified eternally by being chosen in Christ, and given to him, legally by the life, and death and resurrection of Christ~Romans 4:25 vitally, when the Spirit regenerates us and in time which gives peace to our hearts~Romans 5:1;; and practically, during our lifetime by good works, before others~James 2; and shall be before the great white throne judgement seat before all.... Matthew 25, etc.

Yes, I suppose a Christian could say that. but he would be wrong. Justification is a single one-time act of God toward the individual. It is not the same as regeneration even though regeneration happens at the same instant in time in the life of the believer as does justification.

 

[Arial]

Yes, I suppose a Christian could say that. but he would be wrong. Justification is a single one-time act of God toward the individual. It is not the same as regeneration even though regeneration happens at the same instant in time in the life of the believer as does justification.

A person is certainly elect from before the foundation of the world because God knows who he is sending his Son to die for. But a person is not justified until they are justified. As you said, it is a legal ruling. They are not justified until the work that Jesus did on the cross is applied to them. They have always been the sheep, but they must be gathered by the Shepherd into the flock.

Justification is by faith in the person and work in Christ. The work of Christ is applied to a person by the Holy Spirit in an act of regeneration. Three things happen and they happen in an order, all at the same time, but are distinct. Regeneration, faith, justification.

 

[Arial]

To be justified thus does not mean that God treats me just as if I’d never sinned, but rather just as if I’d already paid my penalty.

God treats the believer as though he has no sin because JESUS DID pay their penalty.

 

[JIM]

God treats the believer as though he has no sin because JESUS DID pay their penalty.

Not quite true. The sin is forgiven, it is not eliminated. The sin of the one justified is not counted against him. As I said, God does not declare him not guilty; rather God declares him to be free from the penalty deserved.

 

[JIM]

A person is certainly elect from before the foundation of the world because God knows who he is sending his Son to die for. But a person is not justified until they are justified. As you said, it is a legal ruling. They are not justified until the work that Jesus did on the cross is applied to them. They have always been the sheep, but they must be gathered by the Shepherd into the flock.

Justification is by faith in the person and work in Christ. The work of Christ is applied to a person by the Holy Spirit in an act of regeneration. Three things happen and they happen in an order, all at the same time, but are distinct. Regeneration, faith, justification.

Regeneration and justification are both acts of God. Faith is the act of the one being regenerated and justified. Believing is something we do.

 

[prism]

Are we regenerated before we are justified? Or are we justifired before we are regenerated?

I would say we are first regenerated, in which faith is created by which we are justified.

 

[Mr GLee]

And Witsius said,
The elect are united to Christ when Christ's Spirit "takes possession of them" and regenerates them. And he likewise affirms that union precedes actual faith.

It would seem the union is a work of faith. Christ faithfully working in dying mankind .

No literal signs follow.

Metaphors as signs used in parable do follow that one has believed . No I did it . It proves it .

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (gospel) They shall take up serpents; (false prophets)and if they drink any deadly thing,(false prophecy) it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick,(preach the gospel) and they shall recover .So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

The key follow.

Not lead by Satan the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if prohecy.

No wondering if led by faith the invisible things of Christ