Which happens first, regeneration or justification?

[Carbon]

I believe you are of the option that immersion in water is only a public display.

Nope, not at all. Jesus said to be baptized, so if the king says so, it's very important. even though I may not fully understand it. I am not a credo Baptist FYI

 

[Binyawmene]

So which comes first, regeneration or justification? And how does this work?
Thoughts?

Regeneration logically comes first. Because regeneration precedes faith (1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18) and faith is an ongoing process into justification (Romans 5:1), adoption (Galatians 3:26), sanctification (Acts 26:18) etc., but repentance isn't.

Although I am curious if someone can be regenerated years before they are justified. Don't know, but I am curious about it.

 

[Carbon]

Regeneration logically comes first. Because regeneration precedes faith (1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18) and faith is an ongoing process into justification (Romans 5:1), adoption (Galatians 3:26), sanctification (Acts 26:18) etc., but repentance isn't.

You would say that even though before we are justified by faith we are still sinful and spiritually dead?

Although I am curious if someone can be regenerated years before they are justified. Don't know, but I am curious about it.

That is a good question. Although, I tend to disagree with it.

 

[LeviR]

Regeneration logically comes first. Because regeneration precedes faith (1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18) and faith is an ongoing process into justification (Romans 5:1), adoption (Galatians 3:26), sanctification (Acts 26:18) etc., but repentance isn't.

Although I am curious if someone can be regenerated years before they are justified. Don't know, but I am curious about it.

Baptism is an ordinance of God. It is to be obeyed. It is an act of faith by those who believe.
He believed, and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. God’s righteousness accounted to him.
John’s baptism was a baptism for the remission of sins. All past sins are forgiven and the person can have a clear conscience going forward.

 

[Red Baker]

Which happens first, regeneration of justification?​

It should be clear, that Justification is first, since it is an immanent, and consequently an eternal act of God. This argument must be allowed conclusive, unless it can be proved that Justification is a transient act~and I do not think anyone wants to even attempt to go there. Consider:

1. The elect were by God considered and viewed in Christ from everlasting; which is excellently expressed by Dr. [Thomas] Goodwin in these words: "Look, as God did not, in his decrees about creation, consider the body of Adam singly and apart from his soul, nor yet the soul without the body (I speak of his creation and state thereby) neither should either so much as exist, but as the one in the other: so nor Christ and his church in election, which gave the first existence to Christ as a head, and to the church as his body, which each had in God's decrees." Exposition of the First Chapter of the Epistle to the Ephesians, London, 1681, Pt. 1, p. 72. Now as God considers His elect in Christ, they are either objects of condemnation, or Justification. The former must be denied, and therefore the latter evidently follows; except, as God beholds the elect in Christ, they are neither objects of condemnation, nor Justification; which is an absurdity that none will admit.

2. The elect were blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ before the foundation of the world; and therefore with Justification, for that is a spiritual blessings "This grace by which we are justified, was given us in Christ from eternity, because from eternity God loved us in Christ, and made us accepted in him." De Natura Dei, Jerome Zanchii, Heidleberg, 1577, Bk. 4, c. 2, p. 355.

3. When Christ, as a surety, engaged for the elect, they were justified. "At the same time in which Christ became a surety for us, and our sins were imputed to him, we were absolved from guilt, and reputed just; that is, actively justified": (Armin., Johannes Maccovius, or Makowsky, c. 10, p. 120.) which was from everlasting, or before the foundation of the world.

4. God eternally decreed not to punish sin in His people, but in His Son. His decree to punish sin in His Son, includes His will to impute it to Him; and His purpose not to punish it in His elect, takes in His will not to impute it to them, and must be their Justification from all sin in His sight.

5. "Christ's atonement and bearing sin was in the eye of God from eternity, as if already done: hence the patriarchs were actually and personally justified by it," as Dr. [Isaac] Chauncy well observes. Neonomianism Unmasked, London, 1692, Part 2, p. 53. Therefore why may it not be concluded that the elect were justified from everlasting, since God had the atonement of Christ then in His eye? I should be glad to see these arguments thoroughly examined, and solidly refuted, if they do not sufficiently prove what they are brought for.

Taken from John Brine's sermon on eternal justification, a doctrine once preached, but no longer is taught as it should be.

 

[Red Baker]

Baptism is an ordinance of God. It is to be obeyed. It is an act of faith by those who believe.

This is not even under consideration, and is not being debated ~why even mention this subject?

He believed, and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. God’s righteousness accounted to him.

You're confused, by not rightly dividing the word of God. Our faith is not a righteousness that is accounted unto us legally, only the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ justifies us legally before the law of God. Our faith is the evidence that we are righteous by God's grace through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:6​

“Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

This is the most popular Bible quotation (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Gal 3:6; Jas 2:23). Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship. The adverbial phrase, even as, means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen.

Paul has been mentioning faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it. The Galatians stood by faith (2:16; 3:1-5); God approved Abraham by faith (Gen 15:6).

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of Judaizers.

All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matt 3:9; John 8:33; Ex 3:6). For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Rom 4:9-12). For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Rom 4:13-16; Gal 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Gen 15:6).

Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?

Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions. Arminians hold conditional justification – faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation. The difference is significant – is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?

Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Gen 12:1-4; Heb 11:8; Gen 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted!

Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to hell (Gen 14:18-20)? Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Gen 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Ps 106:30-31)!

Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?

John’s baptism was a baptism for the remission of sins.

Wrong!

Matthew 3:8​

“Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:”

John's baptism is the same as our, only for those who can bring forth fruit worthy to be baptized!

All past sins are forgiven and the person can have a clear conscience going forward.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is much better news than the one you are pushing.

Romans 8:1​

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

No condemnation now, and forever more!

'No condemnation, Oh could it be, that this sweet message is meant for me, who by God's free grace, Christ died and took the sinner's place.........No condemnation, Oh how and when? the word is clearly written.......... NOW!"

 

[Mr GLee]

Baptism is an ordinance of God. It is to be obeyed. It is an act of faith by those who believe.
He believed, and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. God’s righteousness accounted to him.
John’s baptism was a baptism for the remission of sins. All past sins are forgiven and the person can have a clear conscience going forward.

Acts or works of whose powerful faith (understanding)

Of God or of our own dying self?

The word baptism (to wash) is used in two ways .It like a few other other words should of given the English definition. Less confusion.

Satan the counterfeiter would make it all together one in the same meaning in order to take away the spiritual understanding.

He has no understanding of faith. The father of lies is not subject to the gospel.

John's washing used as a ceremonial law whenever a new person volunteers to the priesthood used to signify the washing of the word of God. . doctrines that fall like rain from heaven and cause growth The same water of the word that our husband Christ washes us His bride .

Deuteronomy 32King James Version32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Ephesians 5:25-27King James Version Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Aarons two sons (the witness of two) Two denoting Christ has spoke.

They were used in a cerimoninil law a sign to the unbelieving nations of the world . Not a sign to themselves selfish false pride. They added to prophecy (sola scriptura) strange fire. . . . .works righteousness. They were consumed out of sight out of mind . The ceremonial attire as a shadow. Not a hint of smoke.

Still on a volunteer bases as a sign to the unbelieving world.

Legion the father of lies

 

[makesends]

Regeneration logically comes first. Because regeneration precedes faith (1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18) and faith is an ongoing process into justification (Romans 5:1), adoption (Galatians 3:26), sanctification (Acts 26:18) etc., but repentance isn't.

Although I am curious if someone can be regenerated years before they are justified. Don't know, but I am curious about it.

How does Rom 5:1, or any other passage, show that faith is an ongoing process into justification, rather than immediately effective? Are we not immediately justified when the blood of Christ is applied (righteousness imputed)?

 

[Carbon]

How does Rom 5:1, or any other passage, show that faith is an ongoing process into justification, rather than immediately effective? Are we not immediately justified when the blood of Christ is applied (righteousness imputed)?

Actually no. We are justified once we believe and have faith. But when the blood of Christ is applied, there is no going back. (well there is really no going back period.)

 

[makesends]

Actually no. We are justified once we believe, have faith.

Of course. Does that demonstrate 'ongoing process'? Do you see "justified" of this particular use, in Scripture, in the present "ongoing" verb tense? I'm just guessing here, that by far and large, it in is the aorist, point-in-time tense.

Further, that faith is not generated by us. We believe because we have been regenerated. GOD did that within us. We are not justified as a result of our decision.

 

[Binyawmene]

You would say that even though before we are justified by faith we are still sinful and spiritually dead?

I will say, no. Because once a sinner is regenerated then he/she receives "life" (made alive from being spiritually dead) and also receives "faith" (saving faith, or the Christ's faith). And now the person has faith to believe and become justified.

How does Rom 5:1, or any other passage, show that faith is an ongoing process into justification, rather than immediately effective? Are we not immediately justified when the blood of Christ is applied (righteousness imputed)?

And another reason why I believe that the whole of salvation is monergistic and not just regeneration.

 

[Binyawmene]

Does that demonstrate 'ongoing process'?

I suppose you can say that faith is a one-step process for all the subsequences, like justification, adoption, sanctification, etc. But faith doesn't end within one of the subsequences 'our justification,' but it carries and continues into adoption (Galatians 3:26) and sanctification (Acts 26:18), and also the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14). Even we live daily by the gift of Christ's faith within us.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.​

 

[Carbon]

Of course. Does that demonstrate 'ongoing process'? Do you see "justified" of this particular use, in Scripture, in the present "ongoing" verb tense? I'm just guessing here, that by far and large, it in is the aorist, point-in-time tense.

Further, that faith is not generated by us. We believe because we have been regenerated. GOD did that within us. We are not justified as a result of our decision.

We are justified because of our confession. We are not justified automatically once we are regenerated without a confession. Paul says, if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth……

 

[Carbon]

I will say, no. Because once a sinner is regenerated then he/she receives "life" (made alive from being spiritually dead) and also receives "faith" (saving faith, or the Christ's faith). And now the person has faith to believe and become justified.

I agree. but I also believe when a sinner is regenerated, he is still guilty, legally in a state of sin. It is true he now has a new nature (faith needs the new nature as a root), but it has not altered his legal status for past sins.

I believe scripture teaches, that it is when a sinner looks in faith to Christ that his status changes.

I agree with what I believe Charnock said, sinners are not justified because they were regenerated, but because Christ had paid the penalty of their sins and applied all his benefits to them.

And another reason why I believe that the whole of salvation is monergistic and not just regeneration.

amen!

 

[Carbon]

I suppose you can say that faith is a one-step process for all the subsequences, like justification, adoption, sanctification, etc. But faith doesn't end within one of the subsequences 'our justification,' but it carries and continues into adoption (Galatians 3:26) and sanctification (Acts 26:18), and also the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14). Even we live daily by the gift of Christ's faith within us.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.​

you sound like a Calvinist.

 

[Carbon]

question.

Is regeneration resistible, or irresistible?

 

[makesends]

I suppose you can say that faith is a one-step process for all the subsequences, like justification, adoption, sanctification, etc. But faith doesn't end within one of the subsequences 'our justification,' but it carries and continues into adoption (Galatians 3:26) and sanctification (Acts 26:18), and also the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14). Even we live daily by the gift of Christ's faith within us.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.​

No, faith doesn't end, but the justification was accomplished on the Cross, and is over with, though it is applied by faith. The rest of our lives, we are already justified. But, maybe you meant something else I missed, by 'process'. It happens.

 

[makesends]

We are justified because of our confession. We are not justified automatically once we are regenerated without a confession. Paul says, if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth……

Yes, but once justified, it is done. We remain justified. We don't become more, nor less, justified. Not a process, but, like I told @Binyawmene , I might have misunderstood him. You seem to have taken him to mean something I didn't.

 

[Binyawmene]

I agree. but I also believe when a sinner is regenerated, he is still guilty, legally in a state of sin. It is true he now has a new nature (faith needs the new nature as a root), but it has not altered his legal status for past sins.

I agree. Forgiveness occurs in our justification (Romans 4:7, Ephesians 1:7, Acts 13:38-39). And justification is a judicial act of God pardoning sinners, like a judge who pardon a criminal and reinstate him as “right” or “just” in the eyes of the law again. In the same sense, God accepted us as “justified” by being vindicated us in a declarative ‘righteous-standing’ in his eyes.

No, faith doesn't end, but the justification was accomplished on the Cross, and is over with, though it is applied by faith. The rest of our lives, we are already justified. But, maybe you meant something else I missed, by 'process'. It happens.

I agree. Correct "faith doesn't end" because faith is continuous and on-going.

 

[Red Baker]

Actually no. We are justified once we believe and have faith. But when the blood of Christ is applied, there is no going back. (well there is really no going back period.)

Bold letter are mine for discussion ~ This is incorrect, no pun intended, but bringing this up for discussion, for all to better understand the great truths of the scriptures.

Our faith is the result of "first" being quicken to life, or, when we are born again by the Spirit of God. Our faith has no part in the legal phase of our salvation from sin and condemnation, none whatsoever. Jesus Christ's faith and obedience is the only ground of sinners who were at enmity against God, being made the righteousness of God...... acceptable in His sight.

Jesus Christ was not a private person acting only for himself before the law of God while living in this world~he was the head of an elect body that was given to him to redeemed by his Father~he acted as their surety from conception until the death of his body, and resurrection to God's right hand of power.

Ephesians 2:4-6​

“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”

All this before any of us were born again, and had the power to believe! Our legal justification is all of God, without us contributing any works whatsoever!

Justification a major part of our salvation, and like the words save/saved/salvation, is used in different senses in the scriptures, and our job is to study to rightly divide its senses, or else, we will end up corrupting God's word.

Example:

Forgiveness occurs in our justification (Romans 4:7, Ephesians 1:7, Acts 13:38-39).

Let us look at one of these scriptures:

Acts 13:39 “And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the Law of Moses.”​

This text has to do with justification, not regeneration; but is it conditional at all? All that “believe” (plural, present tense) “are justified” (plural, perfect tense). Not will be, but are, already justified and that by the faith and obedience of Christ alone. Romans 5:19; Galatians 2:16, etc.

Paul further confirmed the fact by ascribing justification “by him,” that is, by Christ! Paul argued that legal justification precedes faith all through his epistles.

Is regeneration resistible, or irresistible?

Since it takes place in the subconscious part of man, where God is the only active person working, it is without question irresistible. No man knows when he was quicken to life, he may get close, but the exact timing of this birth is hidden from us~we were dead in trespasses and sins~even though loved by God from eternity past, proven that we were by being given life freely for Jesus' sake.

We are justified because of our confession.

Not legally~legally our justification is freely given to us based on Christ's redemption work.

Romans 3:24​

“Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”

We are not justified automatically once we are regenerated without a confession. Paul says, if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth……

There is a "practical" justification that takes place once we believe and understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, this justification takes place in our hearts/conscience that brings peace to our hearts.

Romans 5:1​

“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”

This has not one thing to do with our legal forgiveness of our sins through Christ's faith and obedience. This justification takes place in our spirit of knowing the truth of the gospel of Jesús Christ, that may take time for one to fully comprehend.