Which happens first, regeneration or justification?

[Arial]

Not quite true. The sin is forgiven, it is not eliminated. The sin of the one justified is not counted against him. As I said, God does not declare him not guilty; rather God declares him to be free from the penalty deserved.

That is not true. The believer is declared not guilty which is why he is free from the penalty deserved. Jesus satisfied God's justice against sin. Satisfied it. Paid the ransom. Debt is wiped out. His righteousness is accredited to our account. Our debt is wiped out and sins we do commit until the consummation cannot condemn us. because we are sealed in him and his righteousness.

 

[makesends]

It is not a declaration of not guilty. That would be dishonest.

When you forgive someone for an offense against you, you are not treating them as if it didn't happen. You are acknowledging that it did happen, and you are giving up any claim against them for the offense. That difference is not moot.

It is true that God is not mocked. If a person is still guilty, it is because they have not been declared righteous.


Seems to me you don't understand imputation. Even when a child is born, Adam's sin is already imputed to him. He is declared guilty until God declares him righteous. Now, that doesn't imply that he can't rebel. And if he does continue in sin, Christ's righteousness was never imputed to him to begin with.

At this point in this post, you are probably saying that that isn't what you are talking about (besides that you disagree about the infant's sinfulness). You think you are talking about the difference between forgiveness and legal standing.

Well, frankly, I get the feeling you don't understand what Christ did at the cross. And, I don't remember if you are one who denies the principle of 'imputation'. If you do, it makes no difference to the argument. The Bible teaches it.

But if it helps, when we, to whom God has imputed Christ's righteousness, confess our current (2024-2025) sins, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sins. We are no longer guilty of them. And no, that doesn't mean that we didn't do them, but that Christ took them upon himself.

 

[JIM]

Yes, believing is something we do but we believe because we have been born again, born from above. Then we hear and believe.

NO! We are born again because we believe. Faith is the signature difference between those whom God justifies and regenerates and those He does not.

 

[JIM]

That is not true. The believer is declared not guilty which is why he is free from the penalty deserved. Jesus satisfied God's justice against sin. Satisfied it. Paid the ransom. Debt is wiped out. His righteousness is accredited to our account. Our debt is wiped out and sins we do commit until the consummation cannot condemn us. because we are sealed in him and his righteousness.

No. If your child lies to you and you forgive him for that lie, that doesn't mean he is not guilty of lying. He lied, he is guilty. Nothing can change that. It is no different with God. If God forgives your sins, that does not mean you are not guilty of your sins. You sinned, you are guilty. Nothing can change that. You are guilty but forgiven.

 

[JIM]

It is true that God is not mocked. If a person is still guilty, it is because they have not been declared righteous.


Seems to me you don't understand imputation. Even when a child is born, Adam's sin is already imputed to him. He is declared guilty until God declares him righteous. Now, that doesn't imply that he can't rebel. And if he does continue in sin, Christ's righteousness was never imputed to him to begin with.

At this point in this post, you are probably saying that that isn't what you are talking about (besides that you disagree about the infant's sinfulness). You think you are talking about the difference between forgiveness and legal standing.

Well, frankly, I get the feeling you don't understand what Christ did at the cross. And, I don't remember if you are one who denies the principle of 'imputation'. If you do, it makes no difference to the argument. The Bible teaches it.

But if it helps, when we, to whom God has imputed Christ's righteousness, confess our current (2024-2025) sins, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sins. We are no longer guilty of them. And no, that doesn't mean that we didn't do them, but that Christ took them upon himself.

You sinned, you are guilty. That is a done deal. Nothing can change that. You are guilty but forgiven. PERIOD.

Seems to me you don't understand imputation. It doesn't change what you did. It changes how God relates to you and interacts with you.

 

[makesends]

NO! We are born again because we believe. Faith is the signature difference between those whom God justifies and regenerates and those He does not.

If your chair seems wobbly, does your faith in it become wobbly?

If your faith is the hinge upon which your eternal well-being turns, you're a goner.

 

[makesends]

You sinned, you are guilty. That is a done deal. Nothing can change that. You are guilty but forgiven. PERIOD.

Seems to me you don't understand imputation. It doesn't change what you did. It changes how God relates to you and interacts with you.

I agree it doesn't change history. But I am no longer guilty, as has been declared by God himself, the Basis for all ontological fact. Your history is not older than God.

 

[JIM]

I agree it doesn't change history. But I am no longer guilty, as has been declared by God himself, the Basis for all ontological fact. Your history is not older than God.

If your sin was murdering someone, when God declares you not guilty does the one you murdered come back to life? If not, then you are guilty of his murder.

 

[Arial]

No. If your child lies to you and you forgive him for that lie, that doesn't mean he is not guilty of lying. He lied, he is guilty. Nothing can change that. It is no different with God. If God forgives your sins, that does not mean you are not guilty of your sins. You sinned, you are guilty. Nothing can change that. You are guilty but forgiven.

It is not the same with God as it is with parent and child. The reason the believer is declared not guilty is because Jesus bore our sins on the cross.

Col 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your tespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with it legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

1 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Pet 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

Many interpretive mistakes and wrong doctrinal views come from comparing God to man. Forgiven but guilty is an oxymoron.

 

[Arial]

NO! We are born again because we believe. Faith is the signature difference between those whom God justifies and regenerates and those He does not.

Not according to Jesus. John 3. A person cannot even see (recognize or understand) the kingdom of God, let alone enter it, unless he is first born again.

Faith in the person and work of Jesus is the signature difference between those who have been born from above and those who have not been. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, (and that is a gift from God) and it is by this faith that the believer is justified. That is what the word of God says.

 

[Arial]

If your sin was murdering someone, when God declares you not guilty does the one you murdered come back to life? If not, then you are guilty of his murder.

If God has forgiven you by placing you in Christ, to him (which is what matters when it comes to the substitutionary work of Christ bearing our sins, you are not guilty of his murder. It helps to compare apples with apples. And it helps to look up instead of walking through our beliefs from the perspective of the earth beneath our feet.

 

[JIM]

If your chair seems wobbly, does your faith in it become wobbly?

If your faith is the hinge upon which your eternal well-being turns, you're a goner.

Faith is the key to what God is looking for. It is the reason that He has not given us absolute proof of even His existence, let alone all that He has promised to those who believe in Him. He wants you to hear (read) about the message He gave about Christ, believe what you hear and then believe in Him who inspired the message He sent. For those believe in Him and do as He says, He gives eternal life.

It is not the same with God as it is with parent and child. The reason the believer is declared not guilty is because Jesus bore our sins on the cross.

Col 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your tespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with it legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

1 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Pet 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

Many interpretive mistakes and wrong doctrinal views come from comparing God to man. Forgiven but guilty is an oxymoron.

Cancelling the record of debt doesn't mean the debt wasn't incurred. The punishment for the incurred debt was paid by Jesus. The very fact that He paid the punishment means that the debt did not go away. If it had gone away by some mystical means, then no punishment would have been required.

 

[prism]

Martin Luther believed justification by faith alone is the doctrine on which the church stands or falls.
Luther believed that the doctrine of justification by faith alone is so important that if the church loses it, it loses Christianity. He believed that without this doctrine, the church has no reason to exist and falls into apostasy.

When someone starts messing this up, it's a serious problem.

Amen!

 

[Arial]

Cancelling the record of debt doesn't mean the debt wasn't incurred. The punishment for the incurred debt was paid by Jesus. The very fact that He paid the punishment means that the debt did not go away. If it had gone away by some mystical means, then no punishment would have been required.

By "some mystical means"? It was by a very physical, violent, horrific means. If the debt did not go away, who owes the debt? You would still owe it. And if Jesus paid that debt and you still owe it our faith is in vain.

You are still looking at it from a purely human perspective. The perspective is God's. But of course there is no way to get you out of that box, or for any of it to make its proper sense because you do not believe and do not know, what it means when the Scripture says we are in Adam.

Why do you think Jesus calls it being born again? Because we were born in Adam, of the earth, like our father. We must be taken out of Adam and brought into Christ, the second Adam. Why is Jesus the second Adam if it is not the first who brought us all forth as sinners?

On the cross, justice and mercy meet. Without the justice against sin, there could be no mercy.

 

[JIM]

Why do you think Jesus calls it being born again? Because we were born in Adam, of the earth, like our father. We must be taken out of Adam and brought into Christ, the second Adam. Why is Jesus the second Adam if it is not the first who brought us all forth as sinners?

In Adam is a description of our physical being. That is not born again. We are born again in our spiritual being. Born again in our spiritual being indicates that we were once alive spiritually but then died in our spiritual being. That is why we must be born again, regenerated, restored again to what we once were.

We are never out of Adam. Even when we become in Christ, we are in Christ spiritually but still in Adam physically. That is the whole point of Paul's chapter 7 of his letter to the Romans.

 

[Red Baker]

Not quite true. The sin is forgiven, it is not eliminated. The sin of the one justified is not counted against him. As I said, God does not declare him not guilty; rather God declares him to be free from the penalty deserved.

Jim before I can even comment of what you have posted, please explain what you mean by your statement: "The sin is forgiven, it is not eliminated."
If Jesus (and he did) fulfilled the law of God for us as our surety, then sin is forever defeated, eliminated, etc. Consider:

Christ's people are thus, by being members of his flesh, part of the elect body, with Christ being the head~considered by virtue of Christ perfectly fulfilled the law of God is if they had always fulfilled the Divine Law. This is the second fruit of Christ's satisfaction, as sin-bearing is the first. Thus, according to this essential element of Divine truth, the Lord Jesus not only bore sin, but fulfilled all the claims of the Divine Law, and so put His people in possession of a perfect and immaculate righteousness, and secured for them its due reward. For as God could not have ceased to demand punishment at the hands of sinners, from the very perfection of His nature, so He cannot but confer a reward from the same rectitude of His nature, when His Law has been fulfilled for them in so complete a way, and by a Person so excellent.

So, pray to tell me, how sin is not eliminated as far as having any power over God's elect, even over their memory throughout eternity. It is an enemy that shall be forever destroy. In what sense is sin not eliminated?

 

[makesends]

If your sin was murdering someone, when God declares you not guilty does the one you murdered come back to life? If not, then you are guilty of his murder.

You're still stuck in the logistics of the temporal.

 

[Red Baker]

Regeneration and justification are both acts of God.

I agree, just in a different order, more on this point later today, the Lord willing.

Faith is the act of the one being regenerated and justified.

Jim, you may not see this, and would like to think, may not even propose to say what you have written, but that what you have said is nothing more than what Paul called:

Ephesians 4:14​

“That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;”

Jim, man's faith is not part of him being (as in the process of) justified legally, since faith is a work on our part, as I said above more than once. Since faith is a work commanded by even the law of God, it cannot have any saving virtue in a regenerating sense. Plus, you said: "Faith is the act of the one being regenerated and justified." That's impossible, since man is dead in trespasses and sins, and at enmity against God,~faith is the fruit of the Spirit, meaning, we first must have the indwelling Spirit, before any spiritual acts can be done that would be pleasing to God, and faith, along with charity, are two of the greatest spiritual a fruits we are commanded to maintain, as God's children.

Faith is the act of the one being regenerated and justified.

Jim, regeneration is a instance act of God's power, just as the creation of the heavens, earth, and light, etc But, I can see how you and others believe it is a process, because of your theology you hold to ~ like a five step process, that I have heard others attempt to explain~ hearing, believing, repentance, baptism, and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc.

 

[JIM]

You're still stuck in the logistics of the temporal.

So you aren't really saved? That only happens at the end of this temporal age? Or am I missing what you are trying to say?

 

[JIM]

Jim before I can even comment of what you have posted, please explain what you mean by your statement: "The sin is forgiven, it is not eliminated."
If Jesus (and he did) fulfilled the law of God for us as our surety, then sin is forever defeated, eliminated, etc. Consider:

Christ's people are thus, by being members of his flesh, part of the elect body, with Christ being the head~considered by virtue of Christ perfectly fulfilled the law of God is if they had always fulfilled the Divine Law. This is the second fruit of Christ's satisfaction, as sin-bearing is the first. Thus, according to this essential element of Divine truth, the Lord Jesus not only bore sin, but fulfilled all the claims of the Divine Law, and so put His people in possession of a perfect and immaculate righteousness, and secured for them its due reward. For as God could not have ceased to demand punishment at the hands of sinners, from the very perfection of His nature, so He cannot but confer a reward from the same rectitude of His nature, when His Law has been fulfilled for them in so complete a way, and by a Person so excellent.

So, pray to tell me, how sin is not eliminated as far as having any power over God's elect, even over their memory throughout eternity. It is an enemy that shall be forever destroy. In what sense is sin not eliminated?

If your sin was the murder of someone, when you become justified and regenerated, the one you murdered is still murdered. The sin occurred: it remains a sin. In being justified, you are forgiven and are freed from suffering the penalty of committing the sin. Nevertheless, the sin was committed. In being justified, God treats you as if you hadn't done it, but that does not mean you didn't do it.