When is the Tribulation period?

[Red Baker]

On the contrary, any doctrine which states that mankind cannot commit evil on this level today without Satan or his devils being behind it is a doctrine which has no conception of the evil which the heart of fallen mankind can create all on its own. It is incredibly naive to think that mankind is incapable of atrocities without Satan's "help".

Satan is the "father of" of all wickedness~man would not had been as wicked as they are today without Satan, that much we all must admit~except those cults that are following the Sadducees doctrine of rejecting angles and spirits.

Your reasoning does not prove very much, since even you admit Satan was here from the fall of Adam until your so-called 70 A.D. invention, and all doctrines that come with that invention by the devil himself.

Adam and Eve once tried to pass the blame to everyone else but themselves for the Fall in the Garden of Eden. Apparently, this attempt to pass the blame to Satan for mankind's evil actions is still an ongoing issue until this day - even without the presence of Satan or his demonic realm being around anymore. Time to "man up" and admit responsibility for our own sins, folks.

Those very words could have been spoken at any time in the history of this world and they still would not prove that Satan and demons are not active in this world. For they all indeed! YOur reasoning must admit that man is more wicked than Satan since the wickedness of man is increasing not decreasing! I wonder would want folks to believe that lie?

2nd Timothy 3:13~"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."

The very reason why God eradicated the members of the Satanic realm back in AD 70 was to show mankind just how corrupt their own fallen nature was, even without Satan and his minions being around to provide an impetus for wickedness.

And God told you that Jimmy Swaggart? Sound just like him.....where do you have proof of what what you are saying, well, guess what? You do not!

 

[Mr GLee]

Satan is the "father of" of all wickedness~man would not had been as wicked as they are today without Satan, that much we all must admit~except those cults that are following the Sadducees doctrine of rejecting angles and spirits.

Sadducees with Pharisees put aside their differences to attack all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) Neither one believed in salvation by the grace of Christ through the work of Christ's faith .

No such thing as a invisible creation called "angels" as fake word that was coined to support the father of lies hundreds of years after the closing of new prophecy. need to support the use of disembodied workers with a familiar spirit gods called patron saints today . An abomination of desolation making sola scriptura without efect .

Both groups called the Bible a heresy so that they could keep their own innovation "patron saints" (3500 ) and rising new recruits considered daily to add to the legion .

The Greek word angelos in english is messenger again not angel they rejected the true messengers called apostles (sent one not highly venerable dead ones (patron saints)

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? (apostle) as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them (apostles) not angels ) that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! . . (sola scriptura)

 

[3 Resurrections]

Satan is the "father of" of all wickedness~man would not had been as wicked as they are today without Satan, that much we all must admit~except those cults that are following the Sadducees doctrine of rejecting angles and spirits.

Satan most assuredly "got the ball rolling", so to speak, in the Garden of Eden. He was a "murderer from the beginning" and Christ justly titled Satan the Father of lies. I am not of the camp of those who deny that a literal Satan along with his devils is recorded in scripture as being actively engaged in deceiving the nations in the past. As you have written, those in this camp share the same error as the Sadducees' doctrine.

But I have a couple questions for you, Red.

#1, Is it necessary for Satan to be in existence at present for fallen mankind to perform evil actions? If you ascribe to the doctrine of the depravity of fallen man, (which I know you do), there is only one answer for this question, and that is NO, mankind today can perform evil without the presence of Satan being around to instigate that evil. Christ made it clear in Mark 7:21-23 that "... from within, out of the heart of men proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders..." etc.. However, for those who do NOT ascribe to the doctrine of the depravity of fallen mankind, this line of reasoning would not convince them.

#2, Did God ever mention His plans to destroy Satan and his devils so that they would no more exist? If you are honest with the scriptures, you must deal with the texts such as Isaiah 27:1 which tells us that God was going to SLAY the "crooked serpent", and the "Dragon that is in the sea". Ezekiel 28:11-19 is even more exact concerning the manner in which that "anointed cherub" which had been in Eden was going to die, so that "never shalt thou be any more". And since Satan would share the same fate at the same time as his devils (as in Matthew 25:41), this means scripture teaches us of the extinction-death of the entire Satanic realm at some point. Where you and I would part ways is in the particular point of time in which that was to take place.

Regarding your text from 2 Timothy 3:13 about "evil men and seducers waxing worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived..." this was a prevalent condition for Paul and Timothy's days. Satan was then in his last, remaining "short time" of operating in great wrath on the earth. He knew he had only a "little season" to deceive the nations once more, and Satan was taking full advantage of that last, brief opportunity to deceive men. In spite of that then-current problem of evil men and seducers each becoming increasingly deceived in those first-century days, Timothy was urged to continue in the things which he had learned from Paul and the scriptures.

You are trying to extrapolate a continued historical pattern of a constantly-increasing number of evil men and seducers growing more and more manifold in the amount of their numbers, all the way to the end of mankind's history on this planet. That is a misinterpretation of 2 Timothy 3:13. Paul was describing a first-century environment, where already-existing evil men and seducers were each becoming more and more deceived themselves, and deceiving others. This was due to Satan having been loosed for a "short time" at the end of the millennium in AD 33 to deceive the nations once more. But that "short time" and "little season" came to an end, because Paul promised the Roman believers that God would crush Satan under their feet "shortly" after that point of time when Romans 16:20 was written (around AD 60).

I maintain that scripture teaches that "shortly" for the Roman believers meant an AD 70 destruction of Satan and his devils in Jerusalem's Lake of Fire where God's "furnace of fire" was located, according to scripture (Isaiah 31:9).

You maintain that Satan "shortly" being crushed by God for the sake of those Roman believers means that God has taken 2,000 plus years and still counting for Satan to still be operating increasingly to this very day.

Don't give me the tired old argument that time means nothing to God. It does - particularly when He is conveying a sense of His imminent actions to His believers. God knows how to tell time.

 

[Red Baker]

Don't give me the tired old argument that time means nothing to God. It does - particularly when He is conveying a sense of His imminent actions to His believers. God knows how to tell time.

3 Resurrections, God does indeed know, the problem here is you do not. Later, probably tomorrow.

 

[3 Resurrections]

3 Resurrections, God does indeed know, the problem here is you do not. Later, probably tomorrow.

In the sense in which you interpret scripture's sense of time, Red, "probably tomorrow" isn't going to be within 24 hours from now. You'll get back on this topic in maybe 1,000 years or more from now.

 

[Red Baker]

Satan most assuredly "got the ball rolling", so to speak, in the Garden of Eden. He was a "murderer from the beginning" and Christ justly titled Satan the Father of lies. I am not of the camp of those who deny that a literal Satan along with his devils is recorded in scripture as being actively engaged in deceiving the nations in the past. As you have written, those in this camp share the same error as the Sadducees' doctrine.

I know you were not a true Sadducee, as these folks are here:

https://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/How_Shall_The_Saints_Judge_Angels.shtml

What Does it mean, Some Have Entertained Angels Unawares?

Bible Study on what does it mean that some have entertained Angels unawares. by Tony Warren

www.mountainretreatorg.net

They deny Satan, angels, spirits. They believe that Satan is nothing more than your depraved heart. These folks are of the Reformed faith, but that doesn't mean all of the Reformed community believe as they believe. They have truly fallen for the same error as the Sadducees did in Christ's.

But I have a couple questions for you, Red.

#1, Is it necessary for Satan to be in existence at present for fallen mankind to perform evil actions? If you ascribe to the doctrine of the depravity of fallen man, (which I know you do), there is only one answer for this question, and that is NO, mankind today can perform evil without the presence of Satan being around to instigate that evil. Christ made it clear in Mark 7:21-23 that "... from within, out of the heart of men proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders..." etc.. However, for those who do NOT ascribe to the doctrine of the depravity of fallen mankind, this line of reasoning would not convince them.

While I fully agree, with what you are saying.

#2, Did God ever mention His plans to destroy Satan and his devils so that they would no more exist? If you are honest with the scriptures, you must deal with the texts such as Isaiah 27:1 which tells us that God was going to SLAY the "crooked serpent", and the "Dragon that is in the sea". Ezekiel 28:11-19 is even more exact concerning the manner in which that "anointed cherub" which had been in Eden was going to die, so that "never shalt thou be any more". And since Satan would share the same fate at the same time as his devils (as in Matthew 25:41), this means scripture teaches us of the extinction-death of the entire Satanic realm at some point. Where you and I would part ways is in the particular point of time in which that was to take place.

So far, I agree.

Regarding your text from 2 Timothy 3:13 about "evil men and seducers waxing worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived..." this was a prevalent condition for Paul and Timothy's days

Yes, here is where we disagree, and depart from each other ~ 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5 is not to be limited to 70 A.D. but the very latter days of the last days.

You folks are taking the scriptures out of our hands, and with that, all the warnings for the final days on this present world as we know it, and by doing so, you and others are leaving many totally unprepared for what is and will yet take place just before the coming of Jesus Christ.

You are rejectings the last warnings Jesus Christ left his church before going back to heaven for us his people to heed and always to be prepared for the evil days coming, in which will come, and even you by your own very testimony must admit that those enemies of the truth will come from one's own household.

Satan was then in his last, remaining "short time" of operating in great wrath on the earth. He knew he had only a "little season" to deceive the nations once more, and Satan was taking full advantage of that last, brief opportunity to deceive men. In spite of that then-current problem of evil men and seducers each becoming increasingly deceived in those first-century days, Timothy was urged to continue in the things which he had learned from Paul and the scriptures.

The short time, or little season was not fulfilled between 65-70 A.D. ~that is no scriptural basis for believing so.

To prove you wrong would mean a few posts outside of this present one I'm sending now. No problem doing so, You and I have looked at Revelation 20, I think we need to go to Matthew 24 and do a complete verse by verse study of that chapter. I'm ready to do so.

I maintain that scripture teaches that "shortly" for the Roman believers meant an AD 70 destruction of Satan and his devils in Jerusalem's Lake of Fire where God's "furnace of fire" was located, according to scripture (Isaiah 31:9).

Right here proves to me that you are so wrong, since you have no clue where or what the lake of fire is, I do, since the scriptures CLEARLY TELLS US ~ and thsi put us way pass 70 A. D. false theory. Inconsistency is the Hallmark of error, which the scripture can and will prove that your doctrine is full of that very thing.

Tell me ~ where and what is the lake of fire?

 

[EarlyActs]

Satan is the "father of" of all wickedness~man would not had been as wicked as they are today without Satan, that much we all must admit~except those cults that are following the Sadducees doctrine of rejecting angles and spirits.

Your reasoning does not prove very much, since even you admit Satan was here from the fall of Adam until your so-called 70 A.D. invention, and all doctrines that come with that invention by the devil himself.

Those very words could have been spoken at any time in the history of this world and they still would not prove that Satan and demons are not active in this world. For they all indeed! YOur reasoning must admit that man is more wicked than Satan since the wickedness of man is increasing not decreasing! I wonder would want folks to believe that lie?


And God told you that Jimmy Swaggart? Sound just like him.....where do you have proof of what what you are saying, well, guess what? You do not!

The idea of the kingdom/reign of God in early Acts is that Christ deserves to be honored. Judaism already believed that God deserved this and his kingdom was around, but now, in the resurrection and Pentecost events, he is honored world-wide and this was meant to continue. It is not a statement of the end of Satan's activity.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The short time, or little season was not fulfilled between 65-70 A.D. ~that is no scriptural basis for believing so.

No, Red, I never wrote that AD 65-70 was the time period that scripture assigns to Satan's "short time" and "little season". That "short time" of Satan's release began when Satan was cast out of heaven down to earth at Christ's resurrection-day ascension in AD 33. It lasted until Satan and his minions were all imprisoned in Jerusalem in AD 66 and destroyed in the city of Jerusalem's Lake of Fire by the close of AD 70.

You know that Joshua once described the Israelites wilderness wanderings for 40 years as a "LONG season" in Joshua 24:7 ("ye dwelt in the wilderness a LONG SEASON." This would indicate that a "LITTLE SEASON" would endure for LESS than 40 years. The years from AD 33 until Satan and his devils were imprisoned in AD 66 qualifies as less than 40 years.

You folks are taking the scriptures out of our hands, and with that, all the warnings for the final days on this present world as we know it, and by doing so, you and others are leaving many totally unprepared for what is and will yet take place just before the coming of Jesus Christ.

You are rejectings the last warnings Jesus Christ left his church before going back to heaven for us his people to heed and always to be prepared for the evil days coming, in which will come, and even you by your own very testimony must admit that those enemies of the truth will come from one's own household.

No, Red, Preterism doesn't take scripture out of your hands. We believe the time-relevant language which applied prophecies to those they were originally spoken to. A scripture prediction fulfilled in the time God promised for it to happen is a precious thing to bolster our faith in a faithful God who keeps His words.

It is you that is ignoring the promised growth of God's kingdom in this world, until the whole world experiences its effects, just like leaven and the mustard seed. Even the gates of Hell (Hades - the grave) cannot withstand the inevitable progress of Christ's "rock" kingdom and its continued growth. "Of the increase of His government and of His peace there shall be no end."

Right here proves to me that you are so wrong, since you have no clue where or what the lake of fire is, I do, since the scriptures CLEARLY TELLS US ~ and thsi put us way pass 70 A. D. false theory. Inconsistency is the Hallmark of error, which the scripture can and will prove that your doctrine is full of that very thing.

Tell me ~ where and what is the lake of fire?

I have written on scripture's definition of the Lake of Fire before on GCF, which you may not remember from that far back. The Lake of Fire was the second death of the city of Jerusalem and its temple, comparable to its first death under the Babylonians in 586 BC. The city and the temple were destroyed by "the flame of devouring fire" (Isaiah 29:6) in those days when Death and Hell (Hades - the grave) came to tread down and overwhelm the inhabitants of Jerusalem, as Isaiah 28:14-19 described.

Once again for the second time in Revelation 20:14, Death and Hell were thrown into the city of Jerusalem for the city and the temple to be burned up in Jerusalem's second death. Jerusalem from antiquity was the place where God's "furnace" was located (Isaiah 31:9). God's "fire is in Zion", the prophet wrote. This same "furnace of fire" in the city of Jerusalem was where the living inhabitants would be gnashing their teeth at being tormented in the destruction of the city and the temple in the "Great Tribulation" years from AD 66-70.

 

[Red Baker]

No, Red, I never wrote that AD 65-70 was the time period that scripture assigns to Satan's "short time" and "little season". That "short time" of Satan's release began when Satan was cast out of heaven down to earth at Christ's resurrection-day ascension in AD 33.

Among the the preterist, timeline of eschatology end time events are not the same, and truly, I have never heard you personally give your timeline of events until now, and if I had, then I have forgotten, pretty sure I have not.

While I will agree that Satan was cast out at Christ's victory over sin, death, and the grave~at which time, he was bound from deceiving the nations ( to the degree he had during the OT times before Christ ) until the elect were gathered together from all nations, and once that is accomplished, he shall be loosed for a little season, which season is known only to God.

It lasted until Satan and his minions were all imprisoned in Jerusalem in AD 66 and destroyed in the city of Jerusalem's Lake of Fire by the close of AD 70.

Here is where you are just as guilty as the premill folks with their science fiction interpretation of Revelation~you Preterist have your own book of science fiction playbook.

So, you are telling me, that literal spirits as powerful as some of them are, were imprisoned in a literal city, and at which time the rest of the world were free from demon possession and activity? You want us to believe that the city of Jerusalem was the Lake of fire spoken of in the word of God, where you have not scriptures to support your interpretation/understanding. This leave the vast ( almost all ) majority of mankind escaping the final judgement and the lake of fire which is the second death. Much can be said here, we will have to come back and address some of what you are saying separately.

You know that Joshua once described the Israelites wilderness wanderings for 40 years as a "LONG season" in Joshua 24:7 ("ye dwelt in the wilderness a LONG SEASON." This would indicate that a "LITTLE SEASON" would endure for LESS than 40 years. The years from AD 33 until Satan and his devils were imprisoned in AD 66 qualifies as less than 40 years.

I hear what you are saying, yet I must remind you that a subject under consideration and scriptures overall ( since no scripture is in a vacuum ) must drive our understanding of what is being said and taught. When we do this, using Revelation in light of Daniel 7-12; Matthew 24. Mark 13; and Luke 21; along with 2nd Thess 2, then we get a clear picture of what to expect a little season is what to expect will be happening during that little season per Jesus himself teaching us mainly from Matthew 24.

It is you that is ignoring the promised growth of God's kingdom in this world, until the whole world experiences its effects, just like leaven and the mustard seed. Even the gates of Hell (Hades - the grave) cannot withstand the inevitable progress of Christ's "rock" kingdom and its continued growth. "Of the increase of His government and of His peace there shall be no end."

3 Resurrections, if you think the world is getting better, even to a point of ushering in a golden age through world wide conversion, ( if this is where you are going with this statement ) then you are more deceived than I originally thought you were.

I'm coming back to address this one point in a separate post.

 

[3 Resurrections]

While I will agree that Satan was cast out at Christ's victory over sin, death, and the grave~at which time, he was bound from deceiving the nations ( to the degree he had during the OT times before Christ ) until the elect were gathered together from all nations, and once that is accomplished, he shall be loosed for a little season, which season is known only to God.

Red, I believe you and I discussed this before on GCF in a post titled "Is Satan bound today?". Satan was not bound at Christ's resurrection-day ascension. He was loosed on earth at that time after he was cast out of heaven, which is why we have the repeated warnings about Satan's and others' deception being rampant in those first-century days (the whole "Devil walketh about as a roaring lion" thing that was going on back then). John duplicated that timely warning for the first-century believers with his Revelation 12:12 "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil has come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time".

That "short time" and "little season" of Satan's ramped-up deception of the nations was then in progress in John's days, but it would not last for much longer. It would be less than 40 years, which scripture considers to be a "LONG season".

So, you are telling me, that literal spirits as powerful as some of them are, were imprisoned in a literal city, and at which time the rest of the world were free from demon possession and activity?

Scripture tells us that every single unclean spirit was going to be imprisoned in Jerusalem in Revelation 18:2. The punishment of that "host of high ones that are on high" would be their imprisonment together along with the high priest "kings of the earth" (Isaiah 24:21-23). Christ promised this complete saturation of demonic oppression of "this wicked generation" during its "last state", which would be seven-fold worse than its "first state" when He had been among them casting out unclean spirits from those citizens during His earthly ministry (Matthew 12:43-45). That is how this period could be characterized as the "Great Tribulation" which had never been duplicated either before or since then.

How does one confine unclean spirits? By confining in one location the humans those unclean spirits are determined to possess. This happened with all those inhabitants of Jerusalem being under siege during the AD 66-70 years. This siege was predicted by Christ in Luke 19:43-44, as well as Zechariah 12:2.

You want us to believe that the city of Jerusalem was the Lake of fire spoken of in the word of God, where you have not scriptures to support your interpretation/understanding. This leave the vast ( almost all ) majority of mankind escaping the final judgement and the lake of fire which is the second death.

But I do have scriptures that teach that the "furnace of fire" was something that the living inhabitants of Jerusalem would be tormented with during the AD 66-70 siege. Those who were weeping and gnashing their teeth at that experience in the "furnace of fire" would be claiming "we have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets" (Luke 13:26-29 cp Matthew 13:42-43). Only first-century Israelites would be able to say this - not the wicked from every generation of history.

This does not teach an escape from a final judgment for anyone. It's just that a final judgment is different from the occasion of the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire / second death was not a second death for people, but the second death of Jerusalem and its temple. Nobody dies twice - not even the wicked. Hebrews 9 :27 tells us that the physical death process is appointed for mankind to experience ONCE - not twice.

3 Resurrections, if you think the world is getting better, even to a point of ushering in a golden age through world wide conversion, ( if this is where you are going with this statement ) then you are more deceived than I originally thought you were.

Who said anything about "world-wide conversion"? I'm not talking Universalism. There will always be some tares among the wheat, and goats among the sheep, and bastards among the sons. Scripture teaches an unending INCREASE in the government and peace which Christ is establishing with the Holy Spirit's influence in the world. We are talking about upward trajectories on the chart, which are trending towards an increase of the gospel's effects. I pay more attention to the Voice of the Martyrs reports of the gospel's advance in the world than I do to American newsfeeds. The Spirit is not bound, and never has been.

 

[Red Baker]

Red, I believe you and I discussed this before on GCF in a post titled "Is Satan bound today?". Satan was not bound at Christ's resurrection-day ascension. He was loosed on earth at that time after he was cast out of heaven, which is why we have the repeated warnings about Satan's and others' deception being rampant in those first-century days (the whole "Devil walketh about as a roaring lion" thing that was going on back then). John duplicated that timely warning for the first-century believers with his Revelation 12:12 "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil has come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time".

That "short time" and "little season" of Satan's ramped-up deception of the nations was then in progress in John's days, but it would not last for much longer. It would be less than 40 years, which scripture considers to be a "LONG season".

I'm sure we have~after all, I have made several thousands of posts over the years, and it is impossible to remember even a small amount of them. Guess what? You are still dead wrong, and I will once again, address most of your points~even though you keep your identity hidden from me, for some unknown reason~it's truly strange that you do so, since we once worship together back in the eighties. But, I'm pretty sure I know, even though you deny it~it's kinda dishonest on your part for doing so. But, be as it may be, I'll move forward.

Scripture tells us that every single unclean spirit was going to be imprisoned in Jerusalem in Revelation 18:2.

I got to start somewhere so, why not here with your first point. It is not going to be short, so be patience, because I'm not going to leave any stone unturned if I can help it, and God being my helper. I'm sure he will, once we commit ourselves to defend His truth. Let's look at Revelation 18:2.

Revelation 18:2~"And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird."

So, you believe Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem in the middle east and that it became the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and cage of every unclean and hateful bird~how precious, that you in your corrupt interpretation of God's word, have you given a free pass to the rest of the world to walk away free of such evil and wicked spirits!

3 Resurrections, if one starts out wrong, then it is impossible for that person to end up with the correct interpretation of the truth, error will be compounded upon error.

The word of God will clearly give us the biblical meaning of Babylon, as it is used by the prophets, from David to Isaiah to Revelation, where we see the destruction of Mystery Babylon which is still a hidden mystery to you, and to most people living in Babylon as used by the holy prophets of God. Bear with me once more as we cover this important subject. This is taken from an outline I did a few years back, ( about 17 years to be exact ) just before I left the COG for good.


The word Babylon is in our Bibles many times, but the number is not important, knowing how many times it is there, does not shed any light on why it is there and what it means. We want to know: What does MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT mean according to God's definition? God's word is its OWN dictionary. We MUST stay in the word of God and allow the scriptures to define their own use of words and they will. The Bible WILL interpret its own scriptures by carefully comparing them with each other and allowing them to FIT TOGETHER with each other.

One has well said, the Bible is a "spiritual puzzle”. The spiritual workman must labor to make the scriptures interpret each other, so one can see the truth on the subject he/she is studying.

Many are like one of my grandsons. When Luke was very young (he's now at Clemson) he was putting a puzzle together that I had gotten for him. He was doing fine, until he came across one that he could not make fit where he wanted to put it; so he stood upon his feet and lifted up his leg into the air, and came down with all of his might, and slammed the piece into the place his little mind thought it went. I said, Luke, that is not the way you do a puzzle. But many do the scriptures the same way. If it does not fit, they still force verses into their doctrine that do not fit and will never fit. A trained spiritual eye can see it so easily. For a man to have truth on any given doctrine, all verses pro and con must work together, not against each other.

We must avoid denominationalism, men's opinions, favors, the pressure of exclusion, praises of men, and other things that would hinder us from faithfully standing for the truth. No one loves standing alone among the multitudes and standing alone just to have claims of doing it. But, we must be faithful with what God has given to us and trust Him for His purpose with our life. This one thing we do know, you will never have the multitudes on the side of TRUTH, NEVER! Matthew 7:13-14

We sing the song, Babylon is fallen from Revelation 14:8 and other places in the OT.

"Hail! the day so long expected, hail! the year of full release; Zion's wall are now erected; And her watchmen publish peace. Thru our Shiloh's wide dominion, hear the trumpet loudly roar Babylon is fallen, is fallen, is fallen, Babylon is fallen to rise no more.

All her merchants stand with wonder, What is this that comes to pass? Murm'ring like the distance thunder, Crying, O alas, alas! Swell the sound, ye kings and nobles, Priest and people, rich and poor. Babylon is fallen, is fallen, is fallen, Babylon is fallen to rise no more.

Blow the trumpet in Mount Zion! Christ shall come the second time; Ruling with a rod of iron, All who now as foes combine. Babel's garments we've rejected, and our fellowship is o'er. Babylon is fallen, is fallen, is fallen, Babylon is fallen to rise no more."

THIS IS A GREAT SONG! But, who really understands WHAT they are singing? "Thru our Shiloh's WIDE DOMINION,".........CANNOT be said to be true, UNTIL, Babylon is TRULY FALLEN. When Babylon falls to RISE NO MORE, then our Shiloh's dominion will be over ALL the earth, over every person. The knowledge of the LORD shall cover the earth, as the sea does now.

The Apostle Paul said: ".....I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the UNDERSTANDING also." 1st Corinthians 14:15 We must understand WHAT we are singing WHEN we sing songs unto our God. Also, are we not teaching one another when we are singing? Yes, we are.

Colossians 3:16 ~"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; TEACHING and admonishing ONE ANOTHER in psalms and HYMNS and SPIRITUAL SONGS, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

Yes, we are singing to the Lord at the same time. We must labor to sing with understanding to our Lord. May this thread on Mystery Babylon help God's children to do just that. That is: have a Biblical understanding of Mystery, Babylon the great. May the Lord of heaven and earth, use it for the good of his people.

More to come....

 

[Red Baker]

Without a true understanding of this subject, a part of God's truth is missing from your Bible knowledge. It may leave you or/and your loved ones unprepared for the evil days ahead and from the sorceries used by MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT! No man lives to himself, and what he believes and practices, others with him, who ever they may be, will believe and do likewise; and if in error, they will suffer the same consequences.

May we all seek to know the true meaning of MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT. Knowing the truth here and responding as a child of God should, will prepare you for that day.

How can one heed the call of the Holy Ghost:

Revelation 18:4~"...COME OUT of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye BE NOT partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

.....if they do not know the truth concerning Mystery, Babylon the great? It is impossible! Some may think that they have never been part of it; others may think they have come out already and do not need to heed this call; but, they may very well still be part of it, yea, a big part of it! May this thread help God's elect to know the truth, that they may heed this call that is in Revelation 18:4 and many other places in the scriptures; though said a little differently, but meaning the same as the exhortation in Revelation 18:4.

Before we start, I will promise that we will use ONLY the scriptures in presenting our understanding of this subject. If we are going to have THE TRUTH, then we MUST use the ONLY source of truth in this world: The record of God himself, that is noted for us in the "scriptures of truth"....which the angels themselves used with Daniel

Daniel 10:21~"I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth:"

ANYONE who uses "EXTRA BIBLICAL" sources as a means to teach who Mystery Babylon is, is deceiving you, even though they may have no true knowledge of doing so intentionally. If they cannot use ONLY the word of God to prove their teaching, then they are using sleight and cunning craftiness that cannot stand up against the scriptures of truth.

All wise and righteous men from the day man has been upon this earth, to our Lord Jesus and his holy apostles and to this hour; have trusted in the word of God for all true history, for instruction in righteousness, for our doctrine, and for that doctrine to remain THE TRUTH, have lived by and trusted only in God's word, just as it was first given to us in our mother tongue.

We teach the scriptures to our little children that they may be wise unto salvation (in every sense that word is used from the scripture), nothing else really matters as far as this duty. (Of course, we teach them to read and other necessary things that can help them serve God and others).

2nd Timothy 3:15-17~"From a child thou hast know the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, (NOTHING ELSE IS) for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be PERFECT, (you need nothing else!) THROUGHLY FURNISHED unto ALL good works."

If this is not so, then may some man stand up and prove otherwise. I do not expect any man to step forth! If one does, bring ONLY the scriptures with you. Acts 17:28 does NOT qualify.

Men of faith live by EVERY WORD OF GOD. Words of men (history books, etc.) outside of the Bible, are NOT HELPERS for God's children interpreting the scriptures.

NOTICE what I said: INTERPRETING the scriptures; of course, there are books that can help us in other areas, but NOT interpret God’s word! By this statement, I am saying this: anything outside of the scriptures, CANNOT supply light and understanding concerning God's truth to his children. I am saying no more than this.

Truth is contained WITHIN the scriptures, NOT outside! Anything outside brought into the Bible to aid its interpretation WILL CORRUPT the truth of holy scriptures.

There are some who believe that the King James Version is the Bible for the English speaking people of this earth; BUT, those same people DO NOT BELIEVE that it CONTAINS ALL TRUTH within its pages, for the English speaking people of this world, but needs history to help us understand the truth of it!.....

...... (the book of Daniel; the book of Revelation; and other sections of the Bible; like Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2Thess 2; etc.).....

THAT IS A LIE from the Devil, the great enemy of ALL TRUTH, and father of ALL LIES. God's children MUST NOT fall for this lie. Our faith is in the scriptures, PERIOD! Not the scripture AND.....!

Children of God trust the scriptures for all truth. Truth is in the Bible, we must be patience and labor hard to find the truth. Proverbs chapter two should motivate us to do this. Leave the word of God, and I will assure anyone, that they will end up without God's truth on that given subject. This is an absolute truth. God's word will support us as we stand for THE BIBLE ALONE FOR ALL TRUTH! This is where we rest our faith.

We had to lay this foundation because there are many who bring much into their teachings from outside of the holy scriptures to convince their followers of their doctrine; especially when teaching this subject and other subjects found in the book of Revelation.
A few more pos tare needed to do a complete job.

 

[Red Baker]

WHY IS BABYLON CALLED A MYSTERY?

Let us now move on to learn from God's pure word, what is MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT.

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, is what its name declares: A "MYSTERY".........A Mystery in the Bible could be defined simply as~ *A truth that is hidden in the scriptures by the Holy Spirit, that can ONLY be understood by DIVINE REVELATION.

Ephesians 3:3-5~ "How that by REVELATION he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote in a few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now REVEALED unto his holy apostles and prophets BY THE SPIRIT;"

Every doctrine CONCEALED in the Old Testament, CAN find scriptures in the New Testament to help a child of God understand the doctrine he is considering; and he CAN do this by the Holy Spirit which is in him. Any outside help would be gifted men used by the Holy Spirit. But they must use only the word of God to help another saint or they cannot help them, but will only corrupt them and will be used by the devil to lead the saints into error.

Colossians 1:26-27~ "Even the mystery (there are a few of them revealed in the New Testament-RB) which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but IS NOW made MANIFEST TO HIS SAINTS: to WHOM GOD WOULD MAKE KNOWN..."

It is only revealed by the Spirit, using the scriptures of the prophets.

Romans 16:25-26~ "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is manifest, AND BY THE SCRIPTURES OF THE PROPHETS, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

Revelation of God's truth comes through the scriptures and by the SPIRIT; not history books! Not the scriptures and help from history! The rulers and leaders of the New Testament Jerusalem would do well to heed this exhortation, but we do not expect this to happen.

 

[3 Resurrections]

We sing the song, Babylon is fallen from Revelation 14:8 and other places in the OT.

"Hail! the day so long expected, hail! the year of full release; Zion's wall are now erected; And her watchmen publish peace. Thru our Shiloh's wide dominion, hear the trumpet loudly roar Babylon is fallen, is fallen, is fallen, Babylon is fallen to rise no more.

All her merchants stand with wonder, What is this that comes to pass? Murm'ring like the distance thunder, Crying, O alas, alas! Swell the sound, ye kings and nobles, Priest and people, rich and poor. Babylon is fallen, is fallen, is fallen, Babylon is fallen to rise no more.

Blow the trumpet in Mount Zion! Christ shall come the second time; Ruling with a rod of iron, All who now as foes combine. Babel's garments we've rejected, and our fellowship is o'er. Babylon is fallen, is fallen, is fallen, Babylon is fallen to rise no more."

THIS IS A GREAT SONG! But, who really understands WHAT they are singing? "Thru our Shiloh's WIDE DOMINION,".........CANNOT be said to be true, UNTIL, Babylon is TRULY FALLEN. When Babylon falls to RISE NO MORE, then our Shiloh's dominion will be over ALL the earth, over every person. The knowledge of the LORD shall cover the earth, as the sea does now.

Red, you cannot base your eschatology on a mid-1800's Shaker hymn that was a favorite with the Union side, sung in victory over the Confederates. This is unlike you. Your constant drumbeat of interpreting scripture with scripture is a sound practice, and you have departed from that habit here. This hymn isn't even biblically correct if it was intended to sing of a future second coming. God said the scepter would not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh came and gathered the people unto Him. Are you saying that the scepter is still in place in a tribe of Judah in Israel today, since you claim that "Shiloh" has not come yet to gather the people unto Him in a second coming?

I haven't based my comments about the destruction of the Satanic realm on this one Revelation 18:2 context alone, either. You must be able to explain why Christ would say in Matthew 12:43-45 that His own "wicked generation" out of whom He had cast devils during their "first state" would have all of those devils return with seven-fold more devils even more wicked than the others had been. This was going to make that "wicked generation" during its "last state" worse than its "first state" when Christ had been among them.

The number seven represents a symbolic completeness in scripture, (as in "seventy times seven" forgiveness). This indicates that the entire, complete group of unclean spirits would descend upon Christ's own generation for whom He had once cast out devils. This is duplicated by not only Revelation 18:2, but also Isaiah 24:21-23, which predicted the imprisoned punishment of that "host of high ones that are on high" that were going to be gathered together as prisoners in a pit along with the "kings of the earth" (which were high priests of the land of Israel). After many days of this imprisonment, the KJV margin notes that these would all be "found wanting". You should recognize this KJV lingo as meaning they were all going to be GONE from existence - both high priests and wicked angelic hosts. And since we know what time period the high priesthood role in Israel was physically snuffed out for all time, this prophecy cannot possibly take place at any point later than that (which happened to be in the AD 70 period). Unless you want to claim that high priests in Israel still exist today.

 

[Wordsmith]

On the contrary, any doctrine which states that mankind cannot commit evil on this level today without Satan or his devils being behind it is a doctrine which has no conception of the evil which the heart of fallen mankind can create all on its own. It is incredibly naive to think that mankind is incapable of atrocities without Satan's "help".

Adam and Eve once tried to pass the blame to everyone else but themselves for the Fall in the Garden of Eden. Apparently, this attempt to pass the blame to Satan for mankind's evil actions is still an ongoing issue until this day - even without the presence of Satan or his demonic realm being around anymore. Time to "man up" and admit responsibility for our own sins, folks.

The very reason why God eradicated the members of the Satanic realm back in AD 70 was to show mankind just how corrupt their own fallen nature was, even without Satan and his minions being around to provide an impetus for wickedness.

We are responsible for our own, sins no one here is questioning that fact. We make choices every day good or bad. That has nothing to do with the false teaching that satan and his demonic realm were eliminated in 70 AD. That is absolutely false doctrine and has no basis in scripture.

"The devil made me do it" is a false premise unless one has given themselves over completely to demonic possession. Yes my friend there are some who in our day who are possessed by demons. If you ever look into the eyes of one in this condition your doctrine will change in a hurry.

In fact one of the devils most effective lies is that he doesn't exist!



1 Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

One doctrine of devils is that there are no devils.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Those "latter times" came and went with "the end of all things" which Peter said was then "at hand" in his own days. Satan was then operating in full fury during those first-century days, ever since AD 33, knowing he had only a "short time" left to deceive the nations. That "short time" also expired long ago, since Paul promised the Roman believers in Romans 16:20 that God would crush Satan under their feet "shortly".

All the texts you submitted above were describing that "short time" of a wrathful Satan operating on earth during the years from AD 33 until he was imprisoned in the city of Jerusalem in the AD 66-70 years before his destruction.

You are battling a dead foe which no longer exists - neither Satan nor his destroyed minions. If scripture described the time when these would all be destroyed back in the first century, you are not at liberty to "look into someone's eyes" and determine that devils are still in existence. That pits your own perceptions against God's words that tell us when He was going to get rid of the entire Satanic realm.

Of course, to admit that Satan and his devils no longer exist would totally gut the profits of the "deliverance ministry" and the Roman Catholic reputation for slinging "holy water" during a supposed exorcism. We wouldn't want to ruin this kind of fun, I suppose. All that witch-burning for collaborating with the Devil would have gone to waste...and the movie industry - can't ruin their profits from all the demonic-based films...

 

[Red Baker]

Red, you cannot base your eschatology on a mid-1800's Shaker hymn that was a favorite with the Union side, sung in victory over the Confederates. T

Of course I'm not basing my understanding on a song~Let me post a few more posts before talking.

 

[Red Baker]

THE ORIGIN OF NAME BABYLON

We will not spend much time on the meaning of the name Babylon. We will not say more than what is recorded for us. We are much more concerned on the hidden meaning of MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT. We are ONLY concerned how the Holy Ghost used it.

In Genesis 11:1-9 we have a very brief record of the origin and the meaning of the name Babylon. The land of Shinar where the children of the earth started to build the city of Babel is the same place as the ancient city of Babylon that is mention many times from 2nd Kings to the book of Zechariah was located; (Daniel 1:2). It is mentioned nearly three hundred times. That is twice as much as Zion is mentioned, the city of God! This does not give light on the meaning of Babylon as it is used by God to hide a mystery within His word. But, it does show us of the importance of the word Babylon.

As we read Genesis 11:1-9, we see that these men ........

( The Holy Spirit does not give us a name for them! The Spirit refers to them as "THEY"! ) These men wanted to MAKE them a NAME, but they left off building the city, WITHOUT making for themselves a NAME! Not only did they leave off and came short of their purposes of building themselves this great city, they left CONFOUNDED!

........WITHOUT any thoughts toward the God of heaven, but had much thoughts about their persons and pleasures. They were very knowledgeable as far as this world's wisdom goes:
".......And now nothing will be restrained from them, which they imagined to do." Genesis 11:6.

They IMAGINED to do great works for themselves, to honour themselves for their great works, which they imagined to do. In the plains of the land of Shinar, there we see men, laboring to live in this world, without any knowledge of the God who created all things, including them. They had high thoughts about themselves, BUT THERE did the ALMIGHTY confound them and proved that he alone rules over all and those who exalt themselves, he is able to bring them down, and leave them in total ignorance of the most important thing and that has the highest value and for their best interest: the fear of God and knowledge of that Glorious Creator of all things; that are in heaven, in the earth and under the earth; visible and invisible; things past, present and things yet to be.

This great work that God did by confounding them, did not cause them to seek him, or even cause them to mention the name of God. They just left off and were scattered upon the face of ALL the earth; And there are they still laboring to make for themselves a great name. We will see their children in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, who is the express image of that Glorious Creator of heaven and earth.

Genesis 11:9 is the second mention of the word Babel, from which the word Babylon comes from. Its meaning is recorded for us it Genesis 11:9; Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there CONFOUND the language of all the earth:........"

They THOUGHT they were wise, BUT they were VERY CONFUSED about HOW to be wise!
There are a few things that we should ponder in Genesis 10 and 11 before moving on.

What amazes me is this: First, this scattering/dividing of the children of men took place in the days of Peleg. "And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided;"............

.......This is NOT speaking of a CATASTROPHIC event; whereby, the LAND ITSELF was divided. This thinking does not go with the flow of events in Genesis 10 and 11. The ONLY thing that Moses mentions from the statement found in Genesis 10:25 is what we read in Genesis 11:1-9! That is: the dividing of the LANGUAGE among the children of men. This is not too deep, but there are many who LOVE the literal sense in everything they read in the scriptures and CANNOT think in any other sense, so they have a catastrophic event taking place that they CANNOT prove nor could it take place, without God creating a new heaven and a new earth.

We do have his promise that he will turn to us a pure language in that day. "For THEN ( after the earth is devoured with the FIRE of his jealousy, verse 8 ) will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent." Zephaniah 3:9

It was divided in this sense: men were scattered upon the FACE OF THE EARTH, all of them having different languages to take with them.

Second: This may have happened with NOAH STILL LIVING or at least shortly afterward.

Follow me: Shem had Arphaxad two years after the flood; Arphaxad had Salah; Thirty seven after the flood (Luke said Cainan, Luke 3:36, but this is a different study for another time) Salah had Eber; Sixty seven years after the flood; Eber had Peleg, One hundred and one years after the flood. Noah lived after the flood Three hundred and fifty years; Noah lived after Peleg was born, another two hundred and fifty one years! Peleg lived after Noah, one hundred and eighty nine years.

Maybe Genesis 11:1-9 happened after Noah’s death, it really does not matter, BUT, this does: Men SO SOON forgot the flood! I would think that the ark was STILL there to witness to them and against them! When we read Genesis 11, we wonder with amazement that the earth was full of reprobates so soon! Why (we know why) cannot the "FREE WILL" preachers see that apart from the POWER of God's Spirit, NO MAN WOULD EVER COME TO HIM! When the Almighty leaves men to themselves, they would NEVER seek God; they would never have one thought toward heaven; They would LOOK to THEMSELVES as a MIGHTY HUNTER before the LORD; mighty in THIS or mighty in THAT, and NO ONE is as mighty as ME, would be their inward thoughts! Not even "that God" who thinks that he is Almighty, by sending a flood to cover the earth! Their inward thoughts were, WHO is the LORD that I should obey Him?

This is what we take from those two chapters, that helps us to understand our subject as we work our way through the Bible.

This is where we FIRST hear of BABEL/BABYLON! From Genesis 10 and 11, and we learned the Holy Ghost's definition of the word Babylon; and it simply means: CONFUSION.

We shall (the Lord willing) see that this perfectly describes ALL MEN who have ever lived in this world, and who are, and who yet shall live in this world WITHOUT God; by that statement, we mean, who lived without fearing, loving and submitting themselves to the very God who created the world and all things therein, including them; and giving Him glory for ALL things that they enjoy in HIS WORLD.

All one needs to do, is to read their works, listen to their words, and consider their life and then you can see and understand that they are very CONFUSED. Whether they are religious or neutral or hate religion, if they are living their life according to the wisdom that is in their heart and not according to the TRUE WISDOM found ONLY in word of God, then a spiritual man/woman can see just how confused those folk are. There are multitudes in and out of religion that are of the great city of "SPIRITUAL BABYLON"!

The truth is: there are only TWO CITIES on this planet called earth;........ We know that there are many literal earthy cites, but there are only TWO in a TRUE spiritual sense.

One is Babylon........ In Babylon, that GREAT CITY; you will find a king that is over them, and his spirit works in them; his name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. He is THE angel of the bottomless pit. He is the prince and the power of the air, in this Babylon.

This king was, and is not, and yet is. This king's kingdom shall be destroyed with violence, and shall be found no more at all. The king shall go into eternal perdition, into the lake of fire, prepared for him and his angels. All of the great city of Babylon, those who make up this great city of Babylon will be cast into the lake of fire with them.

The other is Zion......In Zion, they too have a king over them. His name is: Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace. His kingdom shall have NO END! Those who are part of THIS CITY, are called, faithful, and chosen! They shall live forever with God, and shall look upon his face; the citizens of this city know him as JESUS CHRIST the Lord, king of kings, Lord of lords. They shall inherit all things; a new heaven and earth. The first heaven and earth were corrupted by its king and his children; but the mighty God of Zion shall destroyed their Babylon and its king! Let us now search the scriptures and see from them what they teach us concerning: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT....

I may not make every verse fit perfectly, but there will be so much of the picture put together, that it will be impossible to deny the truth of what we will be teaching from this paper. I will not claim perfection, but will claim TRUTH of that, which we will be presenting.

Search the writings of the prophets in the Old Testament, and read them very carefully and you must confess, if you are honest with God's word, that the word Babylon when used by the prophets, was NOT always speaking of the literal ancient city that took Judah captive, during the days of Jeremiah the prophet. Let us look at the scriptures of the prophets and see if we can determine what the Spirit of God meant when he was teaching us through holy men of God, who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Red Baker]

THE PROPHET ISAIAH AND BABYLON

ISAIAH 13...The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see. There are many things within this chapter that will not allow one to LIMIT it to the literal city of Babylon.

First, and MOST important point that makes us to look PAST the literal city of Babylon in Isaiah's day is found in verse 11..."And I will punish THE WORLD for their evil, and THE WICKED for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud TO CEASE, (destroying a literal city will not cause pride to cease, but punishing the world by total destruction WILL cause pride to cease) and will lay low the naughtiness of the terrible.”

This warning is to Babylon, (verse 1) who Isaiah refers to as the WORLD and the wicked in it.

This Babylon mentioned in Isaiah 13 will never be inhabited again, (verses 19-20) We know that Babylon was still a literal place during the days of the apostles. 1Peter 5:13.

The overall message in Isaiah 13 is the FINAL destruction of Babylon, whom the prophet reveals to us is the WORLD and the wicked. Whatever may be in this chapter that may allow one to try to make Babylon mean the literal city of the prophet's day, can be explained by giving the sense that the Spirit would support in other scriptures. The only one that I can see, would be the words, "the Medes;” Yes, God used that nation to defeat and over throw the literal city of Babylon, but NOT to the same degree as it is spoken of in this chapter. God is using that name to represent those who shall destroy Babylon in that day. The Lord Jesus and his army that follow him back to this earth, at that day.

ISAIAH 14....Here we find a PROVERB (The prophets in the Old Testament spoke MOST of the time in this manner) against the KING OF BABYLON. When we carefully look at this proverb and consider it with God's open word before us, then we KNOW that it is NOT speaking of any earthly king that has reigned in the literal city of Babylon. Verses 12-15 should remove any questions one may have.

Also, the children of Babylon mentioned in verses 21-22, ARE NOT the literal children of ancient Babylon. We KNOW this by verses 26-27:
"This is the purpose that is purposed upon the WHOLE EARTH: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon ALL THE NATIONS. For the LORD of host hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?"

The king of Babylon (Lucifer!) shall became like all of the rest of those whom he has deceived. (verse 10): He shall be brought DOWN to hell. (verse 15)

ISAIAH 21: This chapter has a few proverbs within this part of Isaiah's prophecy; there is one that we will only look at and consider it when we see it again in Jeremiah 51:8 and in Revelation 14:8; 18:2
"And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answer and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and ALL the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground."

We understand what this proverb is teaching us by others scriptures in the New Testament. WE would NOT know, without New Testament revelation from the apostle John's writings. We will consider them when we get to them.

Before we finish this paper, we will give you many verses from the Old Testament, that does cover many different doctrines, and will prove to anyone who is honest with the holy scriptures, that without the New Testament, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to know what the prophets were talking about in their writings.

ISAIAH 46:1.."Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast."

This is a proverb by the prophet that we will incorporate when we come to others verses speaking about the idols of Babylon, that were abomination to the God of heaven, and, that was the cause of Babylon's total desolation. The Babylon in Revelation chapter 17 and the Babylon in chapter 18, are FULL of IDOLS.

ISAIAH 47...The Prophet is very bold with his words recorded within this chapter toward one he calls: O VIRGIN daughter of BABYLON! (Verse one)

There are too many statements within these verses to even think that it could be speaking of the literal city of Babylon.

The proud spirit of this Babylon in Isaiah 47, is the SAME spirit we see in Babylon of Revelation 18. Compare the two:

Isaiah 47:5".....THE LADY of kingdoms.".......Isaiah 47:7..... "And thou saidst, I SHALL be a lady for EVER:"

Isaiah 47:8..... "Therefore hear now this, thou that art given TO PLEASURES, that sayest in thine heart, I AM, and NONE ELSE beside ME; I shall NOT sit as a widow, neither SHALL I know the loss of children."

Isaiah 47:9..." BUT (saith the Almighty) these two things SHALL come to thee in a MOMENT in ONE DAY, the loss of children, and widowhood: they SHALL come upon thee in their PERFECTION (total destruction) for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments." THIS WORLD has abundance of them, as we will see in Revelation 18!

Isaiah 47:10-11..Read them carefully, please. " .......desolation shall come upon thee SUDDENLY, which thou shalt not know."
"......FROM THY YOUTH" She was ONCE a virgin daughter when the most high created her, but sin entered into her; now, her wisdom and knowledge hath perverted her. The "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT" has been in the world since the garden of Eden......FROM THY YOUTH!

Isaiah 47:14-15.."Behold, they (the multitude of counsels in Babylon-v13) shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them. they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it. Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy MERCHANTS, from thy youth: they shall WANDER every one to his quarter; NONE SHALL SAVE THEE."

We will see more in Revelation 18.

Isaiah 48....There are a few short proverbs that cover a few things in this chapter. Babylon is mentioned in two of them by it’s name and in others by their deeds.

Isaiah 48:14.."....he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans."

The only Babylon that is on the prophet's thoughts would be: the Babylon that is this world and the things that are in the world. I know that by what is in verse 20:

Next Jeremiah.

"Go ye FORTH of Babylon, FLEE ye from the Chaldeans........." This SAME command is founded in Revelation 18:4; which we will consider later, when we arrive there. The New Testament USE OF the word.......
(without which, we would not know)

..... tells us HOW we SHOULD UNDERSTAND the sense of the word Babylon, as the Spirit used the word many times over in the old Testament. We DO NOT speculate or use "Extra Biblical" help to try to figure the meaning of MYSTERY BABYLON, and leaving our hearers AT OUR MERCY. We want to leave them trusting ONLY the scriptures for truth, not our knowledge of things outside of the scriptures of TRUTH. Most of that in this world that is outside of the scriptures will perish with this world at that day; will perish as useless, corrupt materials; BUT, the word of God will endure for ever. It must, because it is the truth, and truth cannot be destroyed.

WHOM shall a child of God trust: the man that puts on a good show and removes ALL warnings of God's judgments from their followers? or the man who said: As the LORD liveth, WHAT the LORD saith unto to me, THAT WILL I SPEAK! 2Kings 22:7-28......."Hear thou therefore the WORD OF THE LORD." (verse 19)

Ye be the judge, using only the Bible, and not your emotions, OR your place in the synagogue! John 9:22; 12:42 OR, any other thing that may cause you to go against the truth. ONE DAY, it will be ONLY you and the Lord Jesus Christ looking eye to eye; I can promise you that you would love to have this day back again, to do it HIS WAY and NOT your way. WHOM shall we follow? As for me and my house, we shall follow ONLY the scriptures! And those men and women who follow ONLY the word of God.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Red, that is a river of commentary, and it unfortunately ignores the one place where the angel defines for you what Mystery Babylon actually was in Revelation 17:18.

"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (which "kings of the earth" were the high priests of the land of Israel). This is not the world at large in this context. Only a single city. To go beyond this definition by the angel is to add to God's words and to change the meaning.

Revelation 18:24 also pins down the identity of "that great city". "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." The apostles and prophets in heaven were going to rejoice over the death of this "great city" because God had then avenged their martyrdom at her hands by His destruction of that great city. This same charge of the blood guilt of the saints of God and the prophets was made by Christ against the city of Old Jerusalem in Matthew 23:34-37. That "great city" was where our Savior was crucified (Revelation 11:8), at Jerusalem.

You are complicating the simple.