When is the Tribulation period?

[TMSO]

Yep. That is what he said. What he said is not in dispute. It is the various interpretations that are being disputed because it cannot be taken to mean the great tribulation will be worse than the flood because if that were the case than less than eight people would survive the great tribulation. In other words, no interpretation of Matthew 24:21-22 can conflict with other scripture.

That is what modern futurism does: it makes Matthew 24:21-22 conflict with Genesis 6-9.

Jesus is using hyperbole.

No. He was being literal. The only reason that there will be anyone left alive is not because this tribulation is not the worst, but because, instead of carrying it through to completion, God will shorten it. That isn't that hard to understand.

And I remind everyone it is completely inappropriate to form doctrine around only one or two verses that have been singled out and removed from their larger narratives and their respective contexts. The are only three verses in the entire Bible that use the phrase, "the great tribulation," and one of them is about the Jezebel in Thyatira and another is about the saints coming through the great tribulation. All three mentions have the saints seeing and experiencing the great tribulation. Pre-tribulational rapture theory is explicitly excluded by the text and since there is no explicit mention of Jesus physically coming to earth on Revelation chapters 15 through 20 all premillennialisms are contradicted, too. No interpretation of the Revelation text can be made to contradict prophetic passages like Psalm 110, which tells us Jesus (the Lord) remains seated in heaven until the LORD makes a footstool of his enemies. Then and only then will the Lord descend in the new city of peace where he is its temple and its light, from whom flow rivers of living water.

Why not? The trinity doesn't have any verses. Everything is an interpretation. The context is clear, and if Jesus says it a great tribulation, you better believe it. If He says no one will survive (absolutely no one), except that God is going to shorten it for the sake of the elect, it does not change how great that tribulation will be. It just means that God, in His mercy, will end it before everyone dies. If there is a fire in an apartment building, and it is clear that everyone is going to die, does the fire department ending the fire quickly change the understanding of how bad the fire was? Not at all.

The great tribulation would be bad, but it would not kill everyone but less than eight people.

First of all, we need to get something straight. The flood was NOT tribulation. The flood was judgement carried out. It was final. No one survived. Noah and family were taken out of it, and were on a cruise with some lucky animals. It was not tribulation. Tribulation is Babylon attacking Judah, and carrying them all into exile. Tribulation is defined as "a state of great trouble or suffering." or "a time of great trouble or suffering". Death is not written into that, but can be a part of it. But Jesus is speaking of a great tribulation. One unlike any time they had seen before, or would ever see. This time would be so much trouble and suffering, that if God didn't shorten this time, everyone would die. There would be no one left, the trouble and suffering being so great. It wouldn't be just a small part of the population (as seen in 70AD), it would be the entire population, and not just of Jerusalem, or Israel, but of the whole world. It's just that Jerusalem will be at the center of it. The ire of the world will fall on Jerusalem, since God will make Jerusalem odorous to the whole world.

The onus is on you to prove the great tribulation will be worse than the flood that killed all flesh on land and air except that which was in the ark. That is THE most destructive and deadly event in human history. So stop posting over and over again and again the same argument and get off your lazy backside and prove the great tribulation will be worse than the flood.

The onus is on you to prove that the flood was simply tribulation. Hard times falling on the people. God Himself was clear that this was His judgement.

Otherwise, the futurist interpretation of Matthew 24:21-22 conflicts with other scripture and that is one more reason in a very long list of reasons how and why modern futurism should be relegated to the trash bin of bad doctrine and something more consistent with scripture put in its place.

It doesn't conflict at all. Here is something I found interesting. Have you ever considered that the hail falling with fire could be our satellites? They can easily be 100 pounds or more. And there would be a reason that they are on fire. (Reentry) God purging His space...

No, it doesn't because if the flood hadn't been shortened no life would exist. We're returning already covered ground here. None of the famines in the Bible would have left life on the planet had their days not been cut short. None of the plagues and other epidemics and pandemics would have left life on the planet if they hadn't been cut short. In point of fact, no flesh could survive God's judgment if the Law were the means of salvation . If the seven churches survive, then the great tribulation is not as lethal as the flood. There are too many conflicts with other scripture with the "worse than all others" literal reading.

Um. Wow. Please, critical thinking is clear. Famines comes to an end. They aren't "cut short". God never said that of the famine in Elijah's day. None of what you say above makes any sense. None of those are tribulation. The Bible is clear with the Jews what is meant by tribulation. Nations of the world attacking them, taking their people away, destroying their cities, for a period of time. God even tells them that He won't allow it to destroy them. Not because He cuts it short.

Jesus is simply saying the tribulation will be cut short; it will not last forever and it will not kill everyone. It will NOT be like the flood that left only eight people alive.

Okay, let's look at what Jesus simply said:
"21 for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be.
22 And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened."
(I even used the LITERAL translation (YLT)) So there will be a period of great trouble and suffering (definition of tribulation), such as there has never been from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be. (That seems very clear to me.) And if those days were not shortened (tell us what would happen if those days were not shortened), no flesh would have been saved. (GASP... you mean no one would survive if those days weren't shortened?)

Why do you add to and change what Jesus said, simply because you don't want to believe what He said? The flood was not tribulation. It was death. It was judgement. Noah was not saved by any shortening. Noah and family were removed from it, and were on a cruise with some lucky animals.

Liken it to the report the stars will fall to earth (Rev. 12:4). We KNOW that is not to be read literally because the nearest star is four light years away. We'd see it coming long before it struck the earth and if it ever did collide with the earth the earth would be obliterated, pulverized into dust. There'd be no earth for the second, third, fourth, fifth, and all the rest of the third of the stars to collide with. By the time the second star arrived there'd be nothing left of the earth with which the star could collide. Not to mention the fact the entire creation's gravitational and magnetic field would be thrown into disarray and all life everywhere (if there is any) would likely cease to exist.

Yes, it is understood that those stars are the fallen angels, since the Bible, if I recall, has likened angels to stars before. This is what it is saying. However, what about the part when a third of the sun, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars will be darkened. (Basically disappear)?

Matthew 24:21-22 cannot be read literally without contradicting other scripture and scripture never contradicts itself.

There is no contradiction. Why do you think that St Augustine and others were premillennialists? Granted the chilianists kind of did the wrong thing, and Augustine left and came up with amillennialism. However, he was a premillennialist, and he said that he could not find any other reading for scripture. The only difference between premillennialism and his amillennialism, is that he spiritualized the millennium. He did not spiritualize the return of Christ.

No, there is another option. Jesus was speaking with hyperbole, just as he had many, many times throughout all four of the gospels.

And you need to stop making snotty comments about others and keep the posts about the posts.

No one here has said that. Occam's Razor. The simplest, most scripturally consistent explanation is Jesus was speaking with hyperbole, not lying, and not to be taken literally.

 

[TMSO]

I listen to MacArthur almost every day. His teachings on Christology, soteriology, hamartiology and other doctrines is often very good but his eschatology is very bad.

The Jews were often wrong.

Jesus never said they were wrong. He spoke of the leaven of the Pharisees. What did He mean when He said this? Did He tell His disciples not to listen to them? No. He told them to listen to them, because they hold the oracles of God. However, they do not live what the teach, which Jesus called the leaven of the Pharisees. Teaching is nothing if one does not live it. A little leaven, leavens the whole loaf. Listen to them, for they teach God's truth, but don't live like them, for they don't follow it.

Christians who examine Judaism may or may not be doing good. Discernment is necessary for two reasons: 1) Judaism was often wrong and when Christians use Jewish theology to explain Christian theology they should stay away from the Jewish errors, and 2) Judaization must be guarded against. Christianity is is not Judaism. Judaizing the Christian faith was repudiated in the epistolary. ANY teacher who fails to recognize these problems - John MacArthur or not - will end up teaching bad doctrine.

I just reread the New Testament and found something very interesting. Paul and company were not at all against Judaism. They were against Judaizers and works based salvation. They were against forcing believers to become Jewish and follow Judaism. Even Paul was clear that the only difference between Judaism and Christianity was Christ. He even tried his best to show this to the Jews. Christ was the fulfillment of Judaism. The One that they were waiting for.

For example, The Jews got the priesthood wrong. They got the monarchy wrong. They got the temple wrong. Every single one of these errors influenced their theology and, as a consequence, their theology was wrong. Their theology was so misguided that when the Messiah stood right in front of them, they not only did not recognize him (because he did not fit their theology) they conspired to have him murdered. The priesthood was originally supposed to be integrated with the civil rule Melchizedek, the Judges, Jesus, and the "royal priests" are examples of God's desired objective and purpose. The Jews rebelled against all four. God told the Jews He did not want them to have a king and took their request for a king to be a rejection of Him as their king. God does not live in houses built by human hands and God told Daivd the one to build His temple would be a descendant of David's and God's Son and in the New Testament (Acts 2:30) we learn the promised throne was the resurrection, and NOT a chair made of wood and gold.

Please provide references that show that they got these things wrong. I mean, it was God who instructed them in all of it. The reason why the Jews did not recognize Christ is that they got their eschatology wrong. They were looking for a conquering Messiah that would destroy the enemies of the Jews, and set up His Kingdom in Jerusalem. God told David that Solomon would build His temple. So David spent most of the rest of his life gathering up material and handling logistics so that Solomon would not have as difficult a task. But both David, and I believe Solomon, were clear that God could never live in a temple, and they knew it.

The Jews got ALL of that wrong so if John MacArthur does not teach those facts then he has Judaized Christianity and adulterated Christian doctrine with bad Jewish doctrine.

Wow. You may not want to slander anyone simply because you are insecure in your beliefs. Wow. You do understand that it is technically impossible to understand Hebrews if you don't understand the Old Testament, right? I mean to truly understand it. There is a lot in Hebrews that makes no sense unless you understand the Jewish sacrificial system, and other parts of the Old Testament. That is why it is often misunderstood by people. The audience are three groups of Jews. Jewish believers, Jewish non-believers, and those Jews who are simply warming the pews. There are some verses that can't be understood properly at all, unless you know the exact Old Testament context.

So do as I recommended: listen with Bible in hand and open because MacArthur's eschatology is bad and he does not exegete scripture well.

Actually, his eschatology is fine. At least he picked the original belief from the 2nd century, and not some belief from the counter-reformation formed by some jesuit leader.

 

[TMSO]

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The Old Testament is a big part of the key, but Israel is NOT at the very heart of the tribulation period other than the fact Israel was going to be destroyed in judgment.

Everyone focuses on Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation but Matthew 24 is only one chapter in a five chapter narrative that begins in Matthew 21 with Jesus return to Jerusalem the day after he cleaned out the temple. That narrative ends with the Jewish leaders plotting to kill Jesus. Five chapters cover a single day in Jesus' preaching and the entirety of chapter 24 stems from the judgment he declared on the Pharisees in the prior chapter.

As far as Revelation goes, Israel is mentioned only three times in the entire book of Revelation and not a single one of those mentions is about the geo-political nation-state Israel. LOOK IT UP! Look it up and verify what I just said. There are more than 340 Old Testament references in Revelation, but the book is not about Israel.
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You should hold one Bible in hand, and read it when you say this. The Bible is CLEAR that Israel is not going to be destroyed in the judgement. The Nation of Israel will ultimately be saved. And yes, Israel is at the very heart of the tribulation. Why do you think the battle of armageddon is everyone attacking Jerusalem. Perhaps you don't understand what is at stake. From whom did God say that our salvation would come? Whom did God say He would protect? So... what happens if Israel is destroyed? Simply, God loses. So of course the tribulation is aimed directly at Israel. Satan will do everything within his power to destroy Israel, and thus destroy God's plan of redemption.

Also, Revelation ties in to Old Testament prophecy as well. However, you can't allow that because that would mean your belief is wrong. Israel actually has a pretty big roll in Revelation, considering it speaks of the woman who is giving birth to Jesus. (Why you would ignore this huge event that is great at identifying the woman as Israel, I do not know.) Does that woman ever die? No. Is she destroyed? Of course not. She is protected.

Revelation is the story of God redeeming His creation (scroll of seven seals), and bringing about the end of sin and death. (Something mentioned in Daniel with the 70 weeks.) It is also about Jesus ultimately defending Jerusalem from Satan's attack (Revelation/Zechariah), and setting up His kingdom in Jerusalem to fulfill the promises God made to King David, and to Israel. Then Satan will make one last ditch effort to destroy God's Holy City, and He will finally be defeated and thrown into the lake of fire, along with death, hell/hades, and a lot of other people. (Though they are thrown in a thousand years prior...)

You don't seem to understand that the surrounding story of scripture is about God's chosen people. In fact, Gentiles only have salvation due to God's chosen people. God chose Israel, they rebelled, and like Habakkuk, God did not reject them completely. They went through times of tribulation, and, as though continually answering the prayers of King David, King Solomon, and other kings who followed God, that when Israel turns back to God, He will hear them and answer their cry. Then Jesus came, and the Jews ultimately rejected Him, to the salvation of the Gentiles, who were once disobedient, but obeyed the gospel and were saved. Paul then says that the Jews will be saved by the obedience of the Gentiles. No one wants to believe that though, because the hatred of the Jews has a long history in the church. However, Paul stated that they are only our enemies through the gospel. They are our brothers besides.

 

[TMSO]

Greetings again TMSO~You asked:

Just as I said above~the world ( Gog and Magog ) to bring them against the camp of the saints, the very elect, who have fled from the false churches in Judea ..... or, the place where God is suppose to be worship ~ where now the man of sin sits and rules therein, leading a bunch goats who have no true love of the word of God. It is now upon us if one would only open his eyes, or just take a bold stand upon thus saith the Lord and refuse to compromise and see where that will land you...out side of the churches in mystery Babylon! The mini pope behind the pulpit will make sure you are not welcome in his church. Afterall, he's in God place here in this world over sheep that he is pastoring.

Please give references. I didn't see that in the Bible. The end of Revelation has Jesus destroying Satan and throwing him, hell, hades, and death into the lake of fire. You deny this. Prior to this, you have Jesus conquering the armies of the beast and his image, and the antichrist as the move to attack Jerusalem. Just as the old eschatology says, the Messiah (Jesus in this case) comes and destroys all the enemies of Israel, and establishes His kingdom in Jerusalem. During this time, Satan is prevented from deceiving the nations into attacking Israel, until after the thousand years is over. Then he is released to deceive all the nations of the world into one last attack on Jerusalem.

What bible are you reading from? The Cotton patch one? As a matter of truth, in the last days only few of the elect can be found, very few in numbers, very few. Much like the days of Noah, wherein only eight souls were within the ark once God begin to appoint folks to be destroyed. Only three escape Sodom and they had to be taken out by force! No pun intended, but truly you are are thinking using only the word of God.

Yes, because the rapture happened. OR, the days were shortened because if they weren't, there would be no one left, non-elect, or elect.

TMSO, you have not learned yet how to rightly divide the word of truth. I gave the true sense of Matthew 24:22 above~once more:

True sense? Are you mansplaining what Jesus said? TRUE SENSE? "22 And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened." Please Jesus, tell us what would happen if those days were not shortened? No flesh would have been saved. Wow. That's pretty straight forward. I don't even need to look for some true sense there. So, no one will survive? Well, because of the chosen, the days will be shortened. Cool. So the chosen, or some of the chosen, will be saved in the end. (That is they won't die.) Well, there you have it. Granted it isn't "true sense" like you used, and just a literal straight forward "read it again", but I like it. I agree with Jesus.

Right here within these three scriptures it clearly tells us what Jesus meant by saying: "except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:" Because the mass of false prophets and their seemly gifts will be so powerful that if God did not shortened the little season, just before his coming, then NO FLESH WOULD HAVE WOULD BE SAVED from the the art of these false prophets deceiving folks.

Wait a minute. Did you just add to what Jesus said? You literally just added to what Jesus said. You completely ignored the context, and change what Jesus said. Okay, let's look at this one more time.

"21 for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be."
So there will then be great [time of trouble and suffering], such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be. Perhaps defining tribulation there will help you understand why Jesus was saying that there was never a time like it, as bad as it, and that there will not ever come a time like it, as bad as it. It is pretty clear. Then comes your verse. "22 And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened." So, if those days [time of trouble and suffering] were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved. It is pretty clear that Jesus is saying that everyone would be dead. But because of the chosen, those days will be shortened. (So the length of trouble and suffering will not run until everyone is dead, but for the sake of the chosen, that time will be cut short and some/all the chosen will survive.

Consider it like this. Believers and the Jews will be suffering through the tribulation under order of death for not worshiping the beast, his image, and taking his mark. Many will die. If allowed to continue, all would die. However, armageddon will occur and all who are not believers, that is all who follow the beast and his image will die. As such, there is no one left to continue killing believers/Jews. [Note: believers here are those who come to Christ during the tribulation.]

Saved is used in a practical sense referring to being saved with a true understanding of God's truth and a true understanding of the times of the season in which they were living in! Selah.

Except... it isn't. Context is king here. We have plenty of examples of what tribulation is, provided by Israel's stubborn rebellion and the Old Testament. Everytime God raised up some enemy to subjugate Israel (such as in Judges) was a time of tribulation. The exile to Babylon was a time of tribulation. One could even say that the Holocaust was a time of tribulation.

TMSO, the brother above Josheb, has proved Noah's day is not comparable to any day as far as men losing the natural life and being kill ~ yet you are claiming that there's a time coming when only a few people will be living on this earth ~ sir, you are not even allowing sound judgement to guide you even with something a simple as this, not sure if you are even capable of understanding what I'm trying to say to you. No pun intended, but facts are facts.

As I pointed out elsewhere, the flood was not a time of tribulation. It was a time of judgement. It was also an instant. Sure it rained 40 days, but humanity died long before then.

Again the great tribulation period is spiritual in nature. We hope to prove this moving forward.

Jesus was pretty clear that it was not.

 

[Red Baker]

REVELATION CHAPTER 17-MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Part four of five.....

But, we must not stop there with those whores, there are more; There are many individual men who have their own ministry ( Kenneth Copeland, Jimmy Swaggart, to just name a couple of well known and very wealthy individuals ) outside of the church, who have MULTITUDES following them and supporting them, and looking up to them as a great spiritual leader. Most of such men are in the "tongue/healing" movement. I have often wondered why Benny Hinn does not come to our local hospital to help the doctors out instead of renting the BIG arena in town. I know why and so do you.

These men know nothing about the true churches of Christ. They are out only to fleece the simple minded people, who do not understand the scriptures, or the power of deception. Proverbs 14:18

To sum this part up, we will only add this: any doctrine that is NOT found in the scriptures, that is taught by any man or any church, is an abomination to the Most High.

We will add ~ Anyone who is in a church that has only been here in the last two hundred plus years, should know that his whole system must be an abomination in God's sight. The Jehovah Witness, Mormons and Charismatics are religious sects that our forefathers did not contend with; these are locusts from the bottomless pit turned loose upon the earth to deceive them whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth. Though some have been here longer, such as: the moon worshipper children of the Islamic faith, who exalt their prophet Muhammad over Jesus Christ; and are so radical in their behavior; that most of the world knows that they are insane. Besides, WHO is ALLAH? Where does he live? How many wives does he have? Can he see, hear or talk? Can you buy him at Wal Mart? No where is that name mention in the WORD OF GOD! The Koran does NOT count, no more than the writings of Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon faith. These are children of the Wicked One. "For they ARE the SPIRITS of DEVILS, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth to gather them to battle of that GREAT DAY OF GOD ALMIGHTY." Revelation 16:14 Which only proves they were not destroyed in 70 A.D. one of many that can be given.

We will say this before leaving: We are NOT saying that your doctrine must be ABSOLUTELY PURE, but it MUST be correct on the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST: And NONE that I just mentioned are.

That he IS the SON of God; he PAID for the SINS OF HIS PEOPLE; the PLEASURE of the LORD DID PROSPER in his hand; He shall see the travail of his soul, and SHALL BE SATISFIED; EVERYONE that he DIED FOR, SHALL be JUSTIFIED; because he BEAR THEIR SINS. HE COMPLETELY FINISHED the work God gave him to do. God was and IS well satisfied with his Son. God's eternal purposes are RIGHT on course, where He ordained it to be! AMEN! The devil knows this, why do many not understand this?

".....WOE to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he KNOWETH that he hath but a short time." Revelation 12:12

In Revelation 17:5~ "And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS and ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

I know that many interpret the Babylon in Revelation 17 to be the Roman Catholic Church; by using the words: "THE MOTHER OF” and say that ALL that come OUT OF her are her daughters. Though we would agree heartily that she is A GREAT WHORE, and many abominations are therein, more than any other, but I understand it in this way:

This whore, I take to means ALL religion that goes against the Holy Scriptures and the teachings therein. This whore is PART OF MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT. Mystery Babylon is a GREAT CITY. Every great city in this world has: RELIGION, SCIENCE, ENTERTAINMENTS and ART and COMMERCE within it; Mystery Babylon of the Bible is NO different. In Revelation 18 we will see more of this great city.

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT IS THE MOTHER of EVERYTHING that is against the knowledge of the Most HIGH!!! In Revelation 18, Babylon, the great is the MOTHER OF MANY dainty and goodly and delicious things, that she has used to bewitch her followers!

In Revelation 17:5 Mystery, Babylon the great is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS. It is through the WOMB of Mystery, Babylon the great that harlots comes out of; and IN THE NAME OF RELIGION they war with the saints of Jesus Christ (John 8:13-59). The harlots pretends to be a worshipper of God and of the seed of Abraham, but she IS A WHORE and a liar. This religious whore has been here from the beginning. It changes name and form and practices. It may be a Pharisees, Sadducees, Baal worshipper, Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, or whatever; if they speak not according to God's word, IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM. Isaiah 8:20 This whore preaches a religion that CAN BE adopted by the people of the world; she quickly learns how to proselyte a man of the world; she spares no pains in doing so. As generations changes, so does she; whatever it takes to corrupt TRUTH and war against the Most High, she does so.

MATTHEW 23:15..."WOE unto you scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! for ye COMPASS sea and LAND to make ONE proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him TWOFOLD more the CHILD OF HELL than yourselves." These are the words of the meek and lowly Jesus! Read all of Matthew 23. I said that the whore of Revelation 17, thus viewed is past, present, and future. Its form changes, its name changes; its ESSENCE ever remains the same; the reason why; it is ever carried by the SAME BEAST.

Let us consider the scarlet colored BEAST; verses 3; 7-15. "And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, (which we have covered- verse 15) and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest WAS, and IS NOT; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET IS. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a SHORT SPACE. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb. and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." REVELATION 17:7-14

1. Verse nine said: "And here is the mind which hath wisdom." ~Anyone who has been given wisdom by the ALL WISE GOD, should be able to follow John's vision that the angel shewed him.

The angel said: "The seven heads ARE seven mountains, ON WHICH the woman SITTETH." verse 9

The reason why I KNOW that the woman is NOT the Roman Catholic church, is because of what this verse PLAINLY says:

The seven heads ARE MOUNTAINS, on which the woman (whore) SITTETH. Verse 15 said PLAINLY: "And he saith unto me, the WATERS (waters here, mountains in verse 9) which thou saweth, (verse 1) where the whore sitteth ARE peoples, and multitudes, and nations and tongues."

Peoples, multitudes, and nations and tongues are KINGDOMS of this world; the words mountains and kingdom are used interchangeable in the scriptures.

"Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a GREAT MOUNTAIN, (KINGDOM) and filled the earth." Daniel 2:35

Filled the earth with peoples, multitudes and nations; which makes up a GREAT MOUNTAIN.

But there is more; verse 10 tells us that the seven mountains ARE SEVEN KINGS!

"And there are seven kings:" Though Rome may be on seven hills and some try to make this whore to be only the Roman Catholic church, by that fact; they are NOT showing wisdom by NOT staying with the flow of the verses.

 

[Red Baker]

This will finished Revelation 17...one more post should complete this.

Verse ten said: "And there are seven kings: five are fallen.... Start from the book of Genesis to Revelation and see if you can find "SEVEN KINGS/KINGDOMS that ruled this world for a certain period of time; We can; In Genesis it was Egypt; in the books of the kings of Israel, it was Assyrian empire and next, the Babylonian empire; next in Daniel we have Medes/Persian then Greece and into the Gospels we have the empire of Rome.

So five are fallen, which were the first five mentioned in order. "And one IS" would be the Roman empire that was in power at the time these words were spoken to the apostle John.

"And the other not yet come;" would be the time the devil is loose from the bottomless pit (another way of saying, when he can use
his power without God restraining him as he (God) has during the time the church is being built) and he will RULE the world with full wrath and hatred and build him a paradise on earth, with men giving their devotion and strength unto the beast. The beast IS Babylon and Babylon is the beast; and the devil is king of the beast and Babylon.

"when he cometh, he must continue a SHORT SPACE." or a little season. And then he was cast in the lake of fire. Or go into perdition verses 8 and 11.

"And the beast that was (had great power in the Old Testament) and is not (lost much of his power at the cross-Revelation 12) even he is the eight ( his last pitch to overthrow God, and Jesus Christ and his people during the little season ) and is of the seven (he was the god of those evil kingdom that will be turned into the chaff of the summer threshingfloors) and goeth into perdition.” (he shall become as one of them!)

"All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also became weak as we? art thou become like unto us?" Isaiah 14:11 YES HE WILL!

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast" verse 12

These ten kings (ten a number for totality) are the nations on the earth when the little season starts at the time of the end. They will have power for a short time! One hour, a little season. They will give their mind and strength to the devil during this time and to the building up of BABYLON, THE GREAT. Even in the last two hundred years, THIS WORLD has made a MAJOR change; the world in many parts of it, looks like a resort that our forefathers could only image in their wildest imaginations. There are places of entertainments everywhere; and every sort of fleshly pleasure you can think of is here in MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT CITY for all WHO WILL FALL DOWN AND WORSHIP THE BEAST! And we will add, most people of the nations of Babylon are MAD on these idols found therein. The truth is: they want more; and we will add, that they are sacrificing their children to these dumb idols is plain to all who has the mind of true wisdom.

These kings will DESTROY the religious PART OF BABYLON just before this world comes to an end! There will be a very short space of time when this world will be free of Religion as we know it. God's saints will be protected, Revelation 12:16-17 But it will be a time of TROUBLE, the which the world has never seen, nor will see.

Read Revelation 17:13-15. She shall be destroyed JUST AS JERUSALEM was by Nebuchadnezzar of old. There is NO WAY to explain those three verses than the way we did and keep the scriptural sense that the Holy Ghost intended.

 

[TMSO]

Part one~
TMSO,
God always said what He means! Just not in the way we think He should.

So why do you keep mansplaining what He says?

Here is a prophecy concerning the coming of Elijah, but it was a predictive prophecy forthtelling of the coming of John the Baptist!

What is the lesson here? Scriptures must be given their proper sense in order to understand them. John the Baptist came in the same power, spirit of the great prophet of old! God said exactly what he meant.

It was literal with metaphorical understanding. The event still occurred exactly as prophesied. One came saying "Make straight the paths of the Lord". That happened. If it wasn't literal, one could not say that Jesus fulfilled all prophesy, because then all prophesy is open for interpretation, and no one is right. However, Jesus did fulfill all prophesy as written.

As has been effectively demonstrated by scripture, the problem with Premillennial eschatology is that it's theologians expect everything to be fulfilled in a literalistic worldly fashion. But God wants His people to worship Him in Spirit and truth, with wisdom to compare the spiritual things with Spiritual things (1st Corinthians 2:13) to come to true discernment of scripture.

Except that isn't what that passage says. "13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the [d]Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. " One cannot interpret this verse as is, because it is part of a much larger context about spiritual wisdom, not about the Bible.

When we look at the Old Testament prophesies of his coming, we read (Isaiah 40:1) "Comfort ye Jerusalem, her warfare is accomplished, her iniquity is pardoned." Can we read that as a literal city with iniquity pardoned, worldly wars ended where the city is at peace?

Simple answer, yes. Because, anyone who knows anything knows that using the city is also a stand in for the people who dwell in the city. Consider kings and queens. Why can/do they speak in plural? They speak for the state. Are they speaking for some stretch of dirt? No. As the ruler, they speak for the people they rule over. Consider Herod at the beginning of Jesus story. Herod was troubled, and all the people with him. If the queen says that "we are not amused", you better not be laughing.

Of course not.

Actually, that is wrong.

At least, not according to the authority of scripture. True wisdom is in comparing spiritual things with the Spiritual, where we see that God tells us this prophesy was fulfilled with the coming of Christ. How? Because He was the Prince of Peace who brought Peace on earth (as the Angels proclaimed) that Jerusalem's warfare "with God" was ended. Only in Christ was iniquity pardoned and man made at peace with God.

And thus we see its literal fulfillment, but now we have a name to put to it. Just because there are some metaphors, similes, and some symbols used does not change the event. For instance, consider "Out of Egypt, I called my Son." That was Israel and the Exodus. However, according to the gospels, it was multi-fulfillment in that it was the same with Jesus. And it is quite literal.

The same with Isaiah's prophesy of Elijah making the highway in the desert straight that was crooked. Was that a prophesy of a literal highway also TMSO?

Again, metaphors, symbols, basically figures of speech, do not change the meaning being conveyed, which is literally fulfilled. It is not analogy/spiritualized. The meaning will be completely recognized next to the prophecy. Most of what you have said in the past is completely different, and completely unrecognizable next to the text.

Is Elijah or John prophesied to be a literal highway construction worker who was destined to measure and straighten roads in the desert? Your understanding said yes! Again, the obvious answer is, of course not. The spiritual picture God paints here in using imagery of crooked highways is in illustrating John would come to make things right. To set things straight in a perverse land, not to literally be fixing crooked roads. Making our paths straight has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with literal highways. But making our spiritual paths straight is "likened unto" making a crooked highway straight.

Lets look at an example. "14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up,
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during," Just what is this saying? Look at it literally using the literalistic tools. Look at patterns of speech. What do we see? A simile, a comparison. (AS Moses) We know that Moses had a serpent/viper raised up on a pole in the wilderness so that anyone who looked upon the serpent would not die due to being bit by the vipers. They believed what God said. Jesus was lifted up on a cross, that whoever looks upon Him in belief will be saved. This is the comparison. However, there is more to the comparison. Whereas one just had to believe when looking on the serpent and it saved from the viper bites, one looks upon (figuratively, obviously) Christ, believes in what He has done, they will not perish (die in their sin), but they will have eternal life. That is the gospel in a nutshell. No need to look for spiritual pictures, or you are going to get lost. In your example he is literally fixing crooked roads where the crooked roads are figurative for people's hearts, thought, and beliefs. And John did that... literally. Just because there are different modes of speech involved, the event being literally presented using those speech forms will happen literally. There is no need to dig around looking for "secret truth" so you can lord it over people.

So what in the world would make the Premillennial theologians believe that in the midst of all this prophesy using spiritual imagery by the Lord, that He would insert Elijah to come back to earth literally? That's the way man thinks. That's the way the world thinks. That's the way man teaches. But it is not prophesy understood in the wisdom of the Holy Spirit.

He does come back literally. There is this wonderful verse that states that it is appointed to man [all is understood] once to die, and then the judgement. Enoch and Elijah have never died. In some traditions, neither did Jeremiah. So, are they going to contradict scripture? I am certain that Elijah will be one of the two witnesses. I'm not sure who the other one will be, since the Bible isn't clear on Enoch or Jeremiah.

1st Corinthians 2:13

• Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

The Holy Spirit is the teacher, through the Word. And comparing the Spiritual with the Spiritual, we know by that Word that John the Baptist was Elijah that was to come in power and go before the Lord. In fact, God doesn't leave us guessing. He very unambiguously tells us how He meant that prophesy. He tells us that John came in the Spirit and Power of Elijah, not literally as Elijah.

It doesn't say that you can change what is said. Even the parables, once interpreted, still make complete sense next to the interpretation. It isn't a completely different story. Even Jesus shows that. He points out what each type of soil represents. With the understanding of what they represent, it all makes sense. With what you have said, it no longer matches with what was written.

I cut out the last part because it is basically saying the same thing. With a literal understanding of prophecy, there are symbols and figures of speech to take into consideration. You are ONLY changing those to what they are known/understood to be. After that, what is left is what will literally happen. Jesus gives an example of how this works. As Moses raised the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up. He showed that that event was prophetic to Him. Nothing changed except for one little addition. Not only would men not die (perish), they would also have eternal life. So while the serpent only saved people from death from viper bites, Jesus saves people from death to sin, and gives them eternal life. That is how prophecy should be understood.

 

[TMSO]

I'll come back and address this later..

I didn't know Russia even played a part in Bible prophecy any more than Israel does, or the USA, or any other nation, other than the holy nation of God's elect ( Jews and Gentiles ) which is the central part of Bible prophecy, the apple of God's eyes!

Russia is the Bear, while China is the Tiger or Lion (I don't remember off the top of my head.) Russia could be considered the kingdom to the north, right? It's north... right? I don't know if they relate in anyway to Gog and Magog however. Some even believe that the United States is mentioned in Revelation as the Eagle that gives flight to Israel. However, that is really stretching prophecy. Hence it is sit and watch. Perhaps it really is the US. We've done it before for other countries. I am not saying Russia is a positive part of prophecy, just a driver. Babylon was part of prophecy. Other countries were as well. As drivers, or as targets of God through prophecy.

 

[Red Baker]

REVELATION CHAPTER 18-MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


We now come to read and see another part of Babylon, that is actually the GLORY of the GREAT city called MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The people of this part of Babylon are NOT drunk with the blood of saints as the great whore was; but she does have blood within her, as we shall see later. She is drunk as well, but not with blood. She is totally absorbed and drunken with, luxuries, worldly fame, power, lust of the flesh and the lust of pleasure. This Babylon has more than they can take in.

Let us look at a few things that should help us see what Revelation 18 is teaching us.

The FALL of Babylon in this chapter is certain. This is seen in the perfect tense of the words in verse two. "Babylon the great IS fallen, IS fallen" the words from the angel will reveal the desolation that comes upon Babylon as we read on.

Verse 2.."For all nations have drunk of the wine of the WRATH of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her"

JUST AS they both did with the great whore of Babylon, so have they done with THIS part of BABYLON as well, but in a totally different way. But as we read on, we will see clearly that there are many things in this PART OF BABYLON that could NOT be applied to what was said of the great whore of Mystery, Babylon the great.

"And the MERCHANTS of the EARTH are waxed RICH through the ABUNDANCE of her DELICACIES." the last part of verse 3

Here is a GOLDEN CUP that has DELICACIES in it, that in OUR FLESH we are STRONGLY TEMPTED to drink of, and the temptations are POWERFUL to our fallen flesh, the old man!

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THAT GREAT CITY, has a golden cup for you to drink of; many have drunk from both the whore's cup AND the WORLD's golden cup. A child of God MUST avoid BOTH! The devil is the father of both! Whoever drinks of either, and CONTINUES to do so and DOES NOT REPENT, WILL be partakers of their evil sins; Or the commands given in Revelation 18:4, are USELESS! It would be like a mother telling her child, if you do not stop what you are doing, then I am going to punish you, when she has no intentions of doing so. When God gives a warning, we had better heed that warning or He WILL do as he said He would. God’s elect hears and follows. Not perfectly, but their OVERALL life is known to be faithful in all things.

Revelation 18:4 .....CHILD OF GOD, THIS CALL IS FOR YOU! AND IT IS "NOT" A CALL TO COME OUT OF FALSE RELIGION! IT IS MUCH MORE SERIOUS AND HARDER TO DO!

"And I heard another voice from heaven saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

1. I know that the call to "come out of her" has nothing to do with false religion because of the contents of Revelation 18. False Religion was in Revelation 17; The WORLD SYSTEM and the THINGS THEREIN that the devil is god of, is in Revelation 18. As one reads through this chapter, it should become easy to see; specially to the mind which hath the wisdom of God given to him.

2. The call to come out of her my people is the very SAME warning and call we hear throughout the holy scriptures.

"Love NOT THE WORLD, neither the things that are in the world. IF any man love the world, the love of the father IS NOT in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, (Mystery Babylon has many things in her golden cup) and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, IS NOT of the father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, (you will see in it Revelation 18) and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." 1st John 2:15-17

"Wherefore COME OUT from AMONG THEM, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." 2Corinthians 6:17-18

3. We, as Christian’s cannot literally separate ourselves from Babylon, no more than could Daniel and his friends. BUT, we can and must not follow their gods nor bow down to them, nor delight in their dainties, nor seek our happiness therein. We MUST be as Daniel was In Babylon of old. "Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find it against him concerning the LAW OF HIS GOD."

"Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber TOWARD JERUSALEM, (we KNOW where his heart was) he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, AS HE DID AFORETIME." Daniel 6:5,10

4. False religion is NOT the MAIN temptation for God’s children, (yes, we can fall into some of their false teachings and hinder our peace and leave us weak before our enemies and unfruitful) but this world system is a greater source of temptation in many more ways than most would ever believe. The main message about the whore and God's saints in Revelation 17 is that she killed them, because they were ENEMIES!
SO the devil has another part of Babylon that he labors to corrupt the Israel OF God with. It is the SAME way that Balaam taught Balak to make use of the cunning art of deception in order to ensnare and destroy Israel of old. Numbers 31:16; Jude 11; Revelation 2:14
Revelation 18:5-10....

"For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." She thinks that there is NO god in the heaven, and she surely does not believe that he knows; BUT he will THRUST IN HIS SICKLE AND REAP. Revelation 14:14-20!

"Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, DEATH, and MOURNING, and FAMINE; and she shall be UTTERLY BURNED WITH FIRE: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her." See 2nd Peter 3:7-10

We believe by verses 9 and 10 that God will FIRST destroy the world as we know it and then cast the wicked into the lake of fire. The wicked will SEE with their eyes the GREAT BABYLON that caused them to say "I sit a QUEEN, and am no widow,( she had a great company of followers) and shall see NO sorrow OH, was she deceived by the old serpent, that deceived our mother Eve. She shall receive SO MUCH torment and SO MUCH SORROW, because she glorified herself and lived deliciously, while she lived; whatsoever her flesh wanted, that she did; for Mystery, Babylon the great city built by the devil himself to deceive his followers to follow him, HAD IT ALL and at all times; he would steal EVERY SECOND you had. He would give you so much that you COULD NOT think about your soul and eternity; and those who are the elect, the devil has used his Babylon to hinder us in our journey to our city which hath foundations, who builder and maker is God.

We, as Abraham, can LIFT up our EYES and BEHOLD ALL that we can SEE and AS far as we can see, IS OURS!

Daniel 7:27... "And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom UNDER THE WHOLE HEAVEN, SHALL BE GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE OF THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."

This earth shall be taken AWAY from those who are wicked and who have destroyed it and it shall be given to GOD'S SAINTS. Yes, this world as we know it will be burned up, and a NEW EARTH and HEAVEN shall be created for them. It will be as the GARDEN OF EDEN before the fall. It will be FULL of MANSIONS, for ALL of its inhabitants are ALL KINGS and PRIESTS. John 14:1-3; Revelation 1:6; 5:10! These words are more true than gravity.

 

[Red Baker]

YES, BABYLON'S WALL ARE COMING DOWN! SING that song and SHOUT as you sing it with understanding. BABYLON IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, TO RISE NO MORE! Remember those words: NO MORE, AT ALL, for you will read them a few times from verse 11 to 23.

"And the merchants OF THE EARTH shall weep and mourn over her." The children of Babylon shall weep and mourn! WHY? Their playground, where they serve their uncontrollable lust is now DESTROYED!

While they had this world and all things therein; they sang, rejoiced, and laugh; BUT NOW, they are weeping and mourning!

"WOE unto you that are FULL! for he SHALL hunger. (this is NOT speaking of food; but of the PLEASURES OF THIS LIFE) WOE unto you that LAUGH NOW! for you SHALL MOURN and WEEP." Luke 6:25

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then shall ALL the tribes of the EARTH MOURN, and they SHALL SEE the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:30

Here in Revelation 18, their mourning and weeping is JUST beginning! Read Revelation 14:9-11

"For no man buyeth their merchandise ANY MORE." This world will not last forever, it will soon be destroyed forever.

The merchandise that is mentioned in verse 12, are things that are used in this world to make the things that the people of the earth lust after. The things mentioned in verse 13 are the things used by the people of Babylon to serve them and their untempered appetite. They are the FRUITS that their soul lusted after; ALL things which were DAINTY AND GOODLY.

"And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and ALL THINGS which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them NO MORE AT ALL." 18:14

"Likewise also as it were in the days of Lot; they did EAT, they DRANK, they BROUGHT, they SOLD, they PLANTED, they BUILDED;" Luke 17:28

"The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, WEEPING and WAILING, And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in FINE LINEN, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls!" Revelation 18:15-16

This beautiful, glorious, playground for the children of Babylon, SHALL FALL TO RISE NO MORE.

The children of Babylon COULD NOT BELIEVE that their GREAT CITY is being destroyed by FIRE. verse 18

She is MADE DESOLATE because of ALL of the ABOMINATIONS therein! Revelation 17:5 with 18:19

The people of Babylon lived HIGH: "And they cast dust on their heads, and CRIED, WEEPING and WAILING, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea BY REASON OF HER COSTLINESS!....." Revelation 18:19

We WILL REJOICE over her in that day, when we see her FALL. verse 20

"And a mightily angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown DOWN, and shall be FOUND NO MORE AT ALL."

 

[Red Baker]

verse 21 ~ "And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; (the world and their music will be forever gone. ALLELUIA!) and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee."

Verse 22~They WILL not be needed, for THEIR WORLD IS GONE FOREVER!

"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; (Babylon will fall, never to rise again, so there will never be a need for lights again) and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard NO MORE AT ALL (HOW MANY TIMES have we read those words? We should KNOW by now; THIS WORLD WILL PASS AWAY FOREVER VERY SOON) for thy merchants were the GREAT MEN of the EARTH; (or BABYLON) for by thy sorceries were ALL NATIONS DECEIVED."

verse 23~ EVERYTHING (verses 12-14) in THIS WORLD is USED by the devil and his children, to deceive ALL the simple ones, who REFUSED the wisdom found ONLY in the HOLY SCRIPTURES. The devil uses SORCERIES through the THINGS IN BABYLON TO SEDUCE PEOPLE INTO FOLOWING HIM.

In Revelation 17 we saw the she was drunken with the blood of SAINTS. In Revelation 18:24, we find here that there were blood of saints as well; but they were not drunken with the blood of saints, as the whore was; But we find something in this Babylon that was not in the whore:

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and saints, and of ALL that were slain UPON THE EARTH." Many have died through wars; because of sex crime; hatred, accidents, and many others ways, other than religion. ALL of the slain are found in MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT CITY THAT IS AT ENMITY against the God who created all things therein!

SUMMARY OF MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT CITY OF THE BEAST

This beast WAS from the beginning; BUT he was wounded to death, by the Son of man, Jesus Christ, who was also, the Son of the living God; But it WAS the SON of MAN that defeated the devil; the god of BABYLON. This beast will be healed from his deadly wound at the time of the end of this world, and ALL of the world (BABYLON) shall wonder after the beast. The people of Babylon shall be ONE mind, and SHALL give their power and strength unto the beast to make BABYLON the means of their deception. They DO NOT know that their god is using them to deceive themselves and others!! THIS BEAST will make a city that HAS EVERYTHING for his deceived followers. He will deceive them into believing that THEY ARE GREAT, POWERFUL and there is NO ONE like GREAT BABYLON. WHO is BABYLON? This world and the people therein ~ just as Isaiah told us, and from him the other prophets of God.

We started in the OT and worked our way to Revelation to help you to see and understand, WHO and WHAT is MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT. I do not claim perfection, but I KNOW this is the TRUTH concerning this subject before us.

What shall we do as Christians who live in BABYLON?

JEREMIAH 29:5-7~"Build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, eat the fruit of them; Take ye wives, (NOT of Babylon) and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands; that ye may be increased there, and not diminished. And seek the peace of the CITY whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the Lord for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace.”

“Who is wise, and he shall understand THESE THINGS? Prudent, and he SHALL KNOW THEM?….” Hosea 14:9

Reader, your prayer request to God should be as Daniel’s prayer request to his three friends concerning Nebuchadnezzar's dream:

“That they would desire MERCIES of the God of heaven concerning this SECRET;” Daniel 2:18

We will close with this prayer: "Oh, LORD, help us to cleave unto thee while we are strangers in our Babylon. We bless and praise thee, that you have not left us in darkness concerning our life in this world. We will wait upon we thee to come for us to receive us unto thyself, that where thou art, there we shall be forever. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." AMEN! Peace be upon all those saints who love the Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity; who exercise themselves to have a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward man.

 

[Arial]

It doesn't need to be there. John was very clear in the distinction between the one he is calling antichrist, and the ones he says are simply antichrists. This will be the lawless one who is restrained until now.

Or-----Satan is the antiChrist and the antichrists are those who follow him. As far as I am concerned we see this clearly in Revelation when we bring John's reference to antichrists in other scriptures to bear on it. The whole Bible in fact, as well as empirical evidence. There is no superior antiChrist than that serpent of old, the devil. In Revelation we see him mimicking God as a false holy trinity---and as such he works his deeds through men to gather to himself worshipers and followers. Mimicking the work of Christ ( by a death and apparent resurrection) and spreading his deceits and wickedness and abominations through the mouths and deeds of fallen man, mimicking God spreading the gospel of truth gathering His sheep, through the mouths and deeds of His own via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in them.

 

[Josheb]

No. He was being literal.

Scripture proves otherwise.

The only reason that there will be anyone left alive is not because this tribulation is not the worst, but because, instead of carrying it through to completion, God will shorten it. That isn't that hard to understand.

Ironic.

The qualifier "for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short," is NOT the cause of survival. It is the cause of the tribulation's cessation. So I find you contradict yourself because with one sentence there is the claim to read the text literally when the account of the flood clearly indicates a more severe tribulation in which only eight literally survived and in another sentence the qualifier limiting the duration of the tribulation is not read literally but twisted to say it is causal to the survival of the tribulation and it is terminated so that more than eight will survive.

Cut short so that only eight survive.
Cut short so that more than eight survive.

Not only is the latter objectively a less severe tribulation but you are not practicing your own standards of interpretation.

Why not? The trinity doesn't have any verses.

False equivalence. Really lame attempt.

Everything is an interpretation.

No, it is not, and that plies directly into conflict with your claim of literal reading.

The context is clear, and if Jesus says it a great tribulation, you better believe it.

I believe it and I believe it exactly as written in light of whole scripture. You are the one failing to consider the context of whole scripture. The flood killed all flesh on the earth except for eight humans!!!!! At the end of the tribulation there is a multitude of believers on earth and the wolf, lamb, calf, leopard, and lion all live together in peace. There is plenty of flesh on the earth.

If He says no one will survive (absolutely no one), except that God is going to shorten it for the sake of the elect, it does not change how great that tribulation will be.

ROTFLMBO!!!

That is exactly what it means. God shortening the tribulation IS the change in its greatness.

It just means that God, in His mercy, will end it before everyone dies.

Yep. And unless your eschatology claims there will be less than seven people and no other flesh on the earth then it is not a tribulation worse than Noah's flood. God, in His mercy, shortened the tribulation so that it would less severe than the flood, and He did so for the sake of the elect (of which there will be more than eight ).

If there is a fire in an apartment building, and it is clear that everyone is going to die, does the fire department ending the fire quickly change the understanding of how bad the fire was? Not at all.

False analogy.

If there are three fires in the same building separated by a lengthy passage of time and one fire kills everyone and destroys the building, one fire leaves eight survivors and leaves the building capable of restoration, and one fire leaves a multitude of survivors and the bible capable of restoration then the fire department does in fact determine how bad each fire was and it objectively concludes the fire with complete destruction is much worse than the one where many survive and restoration is possible. They also conclude the fire with eight survivors is better than the first but worse than the third.

First of all, we need to get something straight. The flood was NOT tribulation.

The word "tribulation" means "a time or state of trouble or suffering."

Genesis 6:17
Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.

Job 27:13-20
This is the portion of a wicked man from God, And the inheritance which tyrants receive from the Almighty........ Terrors overtake him like a flood; A tempest steals him away in the night.

Throughout the psalms and the prophets, THE flood and floods in general are associated with wrath, anger, rebuke, and sin... except for the survivors.

Psalm 32:5-7
I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah. Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to You in a time when You may be found; Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him. You are my hiding place; You preserve me from trouble; You surround me with songs of deliverance. Selah.

Psalm 69:14-15
Deliver me from the mire and do not let me sink; May I be delivered from my foes and from the deep waters. May the flood of water not overflow me Nor the deep swallow me up, Nor the pit shut its mouth on me.

Nahum 1:8
But with an overflowing flood He will make a complete end of its site and will pursue His enemies into darkness.

Luke 17:26-27
And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

2 Peter 2:4-5
For if God......... did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

The flood destroyed them all. Except for eight people. And you would have me believe the drowning of an entire planet's population (except for eight people) was not a state or condition of trouble or suffering. Drowning is torturous.

The flood was NOT tribulation.

Thank you for your time. That statement is utter nonsense, and it is impossible to discuss anything with those who imagine that statement is rational.

Wow. You may not want to slander anyone simply because you are insecure in your beliefs. Wow.

That's novel. I am usually accused of being so assured of my position I am arrogant and condescending. Ad hominem and appeal to incredulity noted. Thank you for your time.

The facts of scripture are...

• God was Israel's King and He remains so.
• God never wanted Israel to have an earthly king.
• God never wanted Solomon to build Him a temple of stone built by human hands in which God does not dwell.
• God did build His own temple.
• God used the disobedience of Israel for His purposes, including the monarchy and the temple of stone and His doing so did not change the fact He expressly stated He never wanted the either.
• There is not a single verse in the entire Bible explicitly stating another temple of stone will be built.
• There are verses explicitly stating Jesus and his body of believers are the temple of God in which God does dwell.
• Jewish theology was often wrong.
• The errors in Jewish theology often caused error in their practice.
• Asserting the good parts of Jewish theology into Christianity is a good thing, asserting the errors in Jewish theology into Christianity is a bad thing.
• The flood was a state of trouble and suffering, and it was a state of trouble and suffering so severe that the entire world's population, animal and human, died a slow torturous death of fear, impotence, hypothermia and asphyxiation.
• The tribulation is said to occur in "this generation," not "that generation," and the near demonstrative conjugation prohibits a futurist reading of the phrase, and none of the fourteen uses of the phrase in the gospels is about some population 2000+ years later.

Those are the facts of scripture and not a single one of them has been proven incorrect. I can and have provided scripture explicitly stating these things (and I do so with confidence and certainty ). I do not need to "interpret" any of them. They can be read, accepted, and believed exactly as written and I encourage everyone to do exactly that.

 

[EarlyActs]

Actually, it is due to Paul and what he wrote in Romans. And no, it isn't some second atonement. It is God finally dealing with His chosen people by saving them all. And, quite visibly, it is through Christ. It even says that they recognize Him whom they have pierced. So, even here, salvation for the Jews is still in Christ. This is Paul in Romans coming full circle. The Jews acted in disobedience and rejected Christ. The Gentiles were once disobedient, but were obedient in accepting Christ. Paul says that the Jews will ultimately be saved by the obedience of the Gentiles. He puts it clearly in saying that God had wrapped up everyone in disobedience, so that he could have mercy on all. (Not some, not only the Gentiles, but the Jews as well.) The Jews were "obedient" in the acceptance of the law, even when they could not fulfill it.

The break in Daniel's 70 weeks (even recognized in the early church) is the times of the Gentiles that Paul speaks of. After that is done, God deals with Israel, and saves His elect from Israel. (This does not mean that there are no Jews coming to salvation today. However, God is going to deal with the Nation of Israel, within which God has a remnant, and has always had a remnant.

The preachers I have heard on this are specifically speaking of Heb 9 and saying that there has to be a 2nd 'crucifixion' of Christ for Dan 9 to be true, to be an actual atonement (they can't atone for themselves; there is no two programs in the Bible).

"Ultimately be saved". He's referring to the remnant that believes justification by Christ. He is not talking about a restored state and worship, because the Isaiah quote is used about the current situation.

The "obedience" of Jews is not to the law but to Christ's gospel. This is a current reality for Paul. Himself!

The break in Daniel's 70 that is already there is at 7 weeks. The only commentary I know of on this is along the lines of numerology, that since it was past 7 weeks, it is exceedingly overdue. The 70th week is unusual in that it appears (from history) to be stretched to include the generation.

There is no early church (NT documents) that connect a "break" to the times of the Gentiles. This is why we read twice from Paul that the whole world has heard the Gospel in his generation, a challenge for relative hermeneutics.

The ultimatums in Luke-Acts about Israel are sufficient to make me think there is nothing else to do with the nation-race. And then there is Paul citing the final wrath of God on Israel (the race-nation) already in a Thess text.

 

[EarlyActs]

Or-----Satan is the antiChrist and the antichrists are those who follow him. As far as I am concerned we see this clearly in Revelation when we bring John's reference to antichrists in other scriptures to bear on it. The whole Bible in fact, as well as empirical evidence. There is no superior antiChrist than that serpent of old, the devil. In Revelation we see him mimicking God as a false holy trinity---and as such he works his deeds through men to gather to himself worshipers and followers. Mimicking the work of Christ ( by a death and apparent resurrection) and spreading his deceits and wickedness and abominations through the mouths and deeds of fallen man, mimicking God spreading the gospel of truth gathering His sheep, through the mouths and deeds of His own via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in them.

There is also the evil person of Dan 8:13 and ch 9 (2 Th 2), and there are even rabbis who say this person was in the Jewish War and was evil then and against Judaism. I don't accept that final point because of Paul's issues with Judaism at his time. I mean cleary the person ruined things for Judaism, but my question is whether there are things inherent in Judaism that caused the revolt.

 

[Red Baker]

So why do you keep mansplaining what He says?.

Sir, what in the world are you speaking about?

It was literal with metaphorical understanding. The event still occurred exactly as prophesied. One came saying "Make straight the paths of the Lord". That happened. If it wasn't literal, one could not say that Jesus fulfilled all prophesy, because then all prophesy is open for interpretation, and no one is right. However, Jesus did fulfill all prophesy as written.

I'm not going to waste very much time with a person like you, who makes very little scriptural sense.

It was literal with metaphorical understanding.

? No, John was not literally Elijah, he was John the Baptist, yet as the scriptures said, and I quoted, John came in the power and spirit of Elijah!

one could not say that Jesus fulfilled all prophesy,

Again, you do not make very much sense~John coming in the power and spirit of Elijah, has not one thing to do with Jesus fulfilling scriptures.

because then all prophesy is open for interpretation, and no one is right.

The way you and some I have seen approach God's word leaves very few with the ability to rightly divide the word of God.

Have a nice day, I have better things to do at the moment. RB

 

[Red Baker]

• The tribulation is said to occur in "this generation," not "that generation," and the near demonstrative conjugation prohibits a futurist reading of the phrase, and none of the fourteen uses of the phrase in the gospels is about some population 2000+ years later.

Greetings Josheb~While I agree with much of what you have written, I must ask would you please explain more by what you mean with this quote that I have saved.

 

[Josheb]

• The tribulation is said to occur in "this generation," not "that generation," and the near demonstrative conjugation prohibits a futurist reading of the phrase, and none of the fourteen uses of the phrase in the gospels is about some population 2000+ years later.

Greetings Josheb~While I agree with much of what you have written, I must ask would you please explain more by what you mean with this quote that I have saved.

Certainly. Bear with me because in one sense the straightforward, literal reading of what is stated with the normal meaning of the words in their ordinary usage is plain and simple. The words, "this generation" mean this generation to whom I am now speaking." But, clearly, lots of Christians and their eschatological teachers disagree.

The specific "this generation" to which I was referring is found in Matthew 24:34, but also in Matthew 23:36. I cite this because both comments were made on the same day just what was likely a few hours apart. The first use was stated to the Pharisees during his "seven woes" judgment and then later that evening Jesus used the same marker in answer to the disciples' inquiry when the earlier predictions would occur. Working outward from those chapters that narrative of Matthews covering that one single day extends backwards to chapter 21;18 and forward to chapter 26:5. Exegetically speaking, it's not a good idea to render just one verse within just the one chapter when the narrative covers five chapters. Then, moving outward from that one narrative on a single day we see there is a gradual change in Jesus teachings (according to Matthew's report) as he approaches Jerusalem. His parables, for one, become less soteriological and more eschatological, less redemptive and more judgmental. Then moving more outward, the use of the phrase "this generation" occurs 14 times, mostly in two gospels (there is a single mention in Mark 8:12, and an examination of every single one of those mentions - if read normally in ordinary usage - all reference the people to whom he is speaking at the time the words were spoken. Then, to move outwardly more globally, The Matthew 21:18-26:5 text is rife with quotes and references from the OT that would have instantly been recognized by Jesus' first century audiences but less familiar to 21st century Christians. Much is lost to us if we're not familiar with the OT. This isn't all the salient contexts, but those are sufficient to keep anyone busy .

The "this generation" of Matthew 24:34 is stated specifically and explicitly in answer to the question asked at Matthew 24:3 and that question is not first and foremost a "what" question, but a "when" question. When will X happen?" Only after the "when" does the "What are the signs....?" come, and the signs aren't about everything. the "what" is solely and specifically about the sign of his coming and the end of the age. I mention this because it is possible to translate "genea" as "race" (Norm Geisler once infamously embarrassed himself by attempting to make such a case). The problem doing that in this passage is that race is not a temporal measure, but generation is. Race does not answer "when." More specifically, the conjugation of the Greek, is near demonstrative. The "proximal" usage indicates something relatively close and not far away (distal). Simply put, neither "genea tauten" nor "genea haute" in either passage can be made to mean "2000 or more years later." The conjugation "geneai " would be used for the more generic generations (plural). In contrast there is a more specific conjugation, that of "genean." See Matthew 11:16 for an example of that. The Matthew 23 example is accusative (indicating when the action take place), while the Matthew 24 example is nominative (naming the subject to whom the action will occur.

Then, just to make sure, when we try to understand a single word or phrase, we look for other examples in the same chapter, the same book, and the same Testament and when we do that we find the English "this generation" has a few varieties in the Greek but still every single one of them is a reference to the people to whom Jesus is speaking at the time he spoke those words. This is substantively different than what happens with the OT prophets for two reasons. The first is that when the OT prophets say "this generation" the prophecies are conditioned upon some predicate so as to say, "when X happens, then this generation will Y..." That predicate condition is a legitimate means of treating the "this generation" as "that generation in the future who sees the predicate condition," but that is not what happens in the gospels. The second reason is that the predicate conditions of the OT prophecies are most often explicitly couched in the incarnation, the first century coming of the Messiah and the way we know that is by the report of the New Testament itself, not extra-biblical eschatological doctrine. For example, I was recently asked elsewhere about the Zechariah 14:4 verse stating, "his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives." That's a predicate condition. I did not mention it in the earlier post, but Jesus was standing/sitting on the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24 and within forty years (within a generation) people were fleeing to the caves and mountains to escape the ensuing events. More obvious examples would be OT prophecies couched in the Messiah's coming when he heals the sick and binds up the wounded. That was all accounted for in the gospels many times in many places on many occasions.


Now let me depart a little bit from the specifics of "this generation," because there are two comments in chapter 24 and futurist usually separate them instead of combining them. Jesus said no one would know the "day or the hour" but he also said, "this generation." Combined they say no one would know the day or hour but it would occur within this generation. Separated the two can be made to say anything, and we often hear futurists hiding behind "no one knows..." while they proceed to say, "Here it is!" "Look! Look! It's coming soon!" "The time is near!" oblivious to the fact they use the words with their normal meaning in ordinary usage but refuse to read scripture that way when scripture uses the exact same language.


My apologies if that isn't what you were asking, and this lengthy post didn't answer your question. If that's the case, then clarify your inquiry and I'll endeavor to answer it.

Luke 11:29-32
As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah. For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation. The Queen of the South will rise up with the men of this generation at the judgment and condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

Jesus was speaking about those to whom he was speaking.

 

[Red Baker]

Certainly. Bear with me because in one sense the straightforward, literal reading of what is stated with the normal meaning of the words in their ordinary usage is plain and simple. The words, "this generation" mean this generation to whom I am now speaking." But, clearly, lots of Christians and their eschatological teachers disagree.

Josheb,

You did a good job explaining yourself, and easy to follow. Brother, I have a different understanding, but yours is one of three or four held among honest and sincere Christians, who love the scriptures and fear God.

The specific "this generation" to which I was referring is found in Matthew 24:34, but also in Matthew 23:36. .

Bear with me, I woke up this morning with a sinus headache~it's kinda hard to think with one of these.

Without covering every small detail of your post, which at times is necessary, but not here, I will just make a comment here and there. I did highlight what I will address more so later than now.

Brother, the phrase~"this generation" or even the single word generation, is used several times throughout the scriptures and almost without an exception, it is used in reference to a particular generation, or a type of people, among a present generation, which word has its common meaning, understood by most~yet, you and I know that God's word is its own dictionary, and will give to any sincere seeker of the truth its meaning to them.

I have a fifty page letter that I sent to a well known pastor of a local church a few years back, ( maybe around fifteen years ) on this very subject, but I moved last year downsizing, and it is lost in my packaging of my office, storage away somewhere~I may find it this week and post a little of it on a separate thread. This gentleman never attempted to respond back~3 Resurrection knows him well, but I will mention his name, that would not be a godly thing to do~besides it is not important to do so.

Josheb, I firmly believe a right understanding of "this generation" is very critical in being on the right path of understanding biblical eschatology as preached by our Lord Jesus and his apostles.

The "this generation" of Matthew 24:34 is stated specifically and explicitly in answer to the question asked at Matthew 24:3 and that question is not first and foremost a "what" question, but a "when" question. When will X happen?" Only after the "when" does the "What are the signs....?" come, and the signs aren't about everything. the "what" is solely and specifically about the sign of his coming and the end of the age.

We agree with your opening statement here~It was a when question in which prompt Christ to give the famous Olivet Discourse. Yet, in answering their "when question" ~ Christ does reveals what signs will allow believers to know when they are living in the seasons just before his coming, and what they should do, in preparing themselves to not be partakers of the many who do not prepared themselves according to the warnings explicitly given by our Lord Jesus in his last message before leaving this world.

I mention this because it is possible to translate "genea" as "race" (Norm Geisler once infamously embarrassed himself by attempting to make such a case).

My brother, I'm really not of the number who cares how words are translated ~ I look to the scriptures alone to render to me it's hidden truth, and it has always delivered, and always will for those who seek their truth from the word of God alone. If I do not see the truth, ( there has been many times I did not over the last fifty years of studying the scriptures ) the fault is with me, not with the scriptures, but my own slowness of heart of understanding God's truth ~ and I will add, it is still a battle with the most advanced/spiritual minded, etc., of God's children, none are excluded.

We shall see that this generation of Matthew 24, and other places as well, is revealed to us by the context in which we find the words and its overall usage in the holy scriptures. Brother, context is king~it will drive the interpretation for us, if we only allow it to do so.

Then, just to make sure, when we try to understand a single word or phrase, we look for other examples in the same chapter, the same book, and the same Testament and when we do that we find the English "this generation" has a few varieties in the Greek but every single one of them is a reference to the people to whom Jesus is speaking at the time he spoke those words.

Josheb, brother I agree, but in a different sense than what you are saying. Again, I do not follow Greek, but the holy scriptures in our own language, where God has promised to preserve his truth from this generation forever!

Psalms 12:1-7~"Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted

This generation spoken of by David the prophet has reference to the ungodly, the men of this world who are vile in their imagination against God Almighty. God has promised his children to protect and preserve his words from the hands of "this" generation of men that live among the righteous, the chosen generation of God's people. I trust before God that I have in my own language the word of God and the one I trust in is one of the oldest~KJV and it has always delivered its truth to me, if not, the fault is with me, not the scriptures.

Josheb, there are only two generations of people living in this world, a generation of serpents and a chosen generation, children of the Living God. More later on this.

My apologies if that isn't what you were asking, and this lengthy post didn't answer your question. If that's the case, then clarify your inquiry and I'll endeavor to answer it.

You did great.

Luke 11:29-32
As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah. For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation. The Queen of the South will rise up with the men of this generation at the judgment and condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

Brother let me close this post out with your quote. This generation spoken of by our Lord in these four scriptures has reference to the ungodly, the wicked among that present generation of folks, some of which were the most godly men and women on the face of the earth at any given time in its history! So, this generation is limited to a certain "type" of men and women, against whom certain righteous folks will arise up in the final judgement to testify against their wickedness by some of their righteous deeds.

Josheb, I had to cut some of your post out in order to get this within one post, sorry. Later....RB

 

[3 Resurrections]

My brother, I'm really not of the number who cares how words are translated ~

And therein lies a problem. Word-for-word translations are often not possible from the original languages the scriptures were written in, which is why "a multitude of counselors" of reading varying translations can clear off some of the fog.

But even with consulting the KJV only, Christ spoke of "this wicked generation" in Matthew 12:43-45 as having both a "first state" and a "last state". Generation is a TIME-relevant term here, because it has both a "first" condition and a "last" condition in a single generation. "This generation" has nothing to do with being descriptive of a particular "type" throughout all of human history. It would be Christ's own first-century generation that He had ministered among which would have the seven-fold oppression of devils come upon them, making their "last state" worse than their "first state" when He was casting out devils from among them. This is what would compose the unprecedented and unequalled "Great Tribulation" for them in that first-century period of history.

The KJV used the single generic term "generation" for all the Greek words "genea", "genos", "genematta", which have different senses. When you don't concern yourself with those critical differences between these terms, a problem is created.