What Type of Calvinist am I -discussion thread

[Arial]

How can he care? The unbeliever is oblivious to God.

That is why he has to be regenerated before he can believe.

 

[sawdust]

You still have choosing to believe as necessary.

Yes because God said to believe.

Mark 1:15
“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

It seems to me as long as you confuse your volitional response with saving faith, you won't get what I'm saying.

 

[Arial]

Yes, after one believes. It is the one believing who God saves (Jn.3:16) He doesn't save you in order to believe.

Maybe someday you will be able to acknowledge just how fallen we are. Believing is being saved. So God does not save one after they believe.

 

[Arial]

Yes because God said to believe.

Mark 1:15
“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

It seems to me as long as you confuse your volitional response with saving faith, you won't get what I'm saying.

God said to believe. He did not say choose to believe.
I don't confuse a volitional response with saving faith. And I don't confuse faith or believing with choosing. And I don't confuse choosing with believing.

 

[sawdust]

People are fond of making excuses for the wrongs they do. It helps them to maintain their belief in their own goodness and attempts to avoid the consequences. They blame someone else. God declares He will have mercy on whomever He has mercy. Who are you to talk back to Him. He is obligated to give saving grace to no one. That He doesn't is not unfair, it is unequal, but not unfair. And there is one God and that is God.

Again, what I say goes right over your head. We are all born spiritually dead. That means if not for grace, the power of the word and the ministry of the Spirit, we would all be utterly and totally oblivious to sin, righteousness and judgement. So there would be no talk of wrong or blame until such time as the unbeliever hit the lake of fire and then they would wonder what the heck is going on. When they are told God did not regenerate them so they could believe, do you not think they have every right to object? It wasn't their fault they were born a sinner not is it their fault they did not believe. And both believer and unbeliever are still no wiser as to why some are saved and some are not except to say God says so.

The moment God says "I will save whoever believes" you can bet your sweet bippy He's obligated to save or do you think He should not keep His word?

 

[sawdust]

That is why he has to be regenerated before he can believe.

No he doesn't need to be regenerated. How can God draw a person to Christ if believing is dependent on regeneration? You effectively have to have a person saved before the Gospel on that basis.

 

[sawdust]

Maybe someday you will be able to acknowledge just how fallen we are.

You have no idea what my story is. You have no idea what I know about being fallen.

Have a nice day.

 

[David1701]

They are only synonyms when the content of belief is truth. If everything you believe is truth, then you have no need to be corrected in anything.

Have a nice life.

More nonsense...

 

[David1701]

The Bible says we are Saved by the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewal of the Spirit; and that we must be Born of Water and the Spirit. The word 'Process' is not there, but in both Verses the duality is there...

Born of water is a Hebraism for natural, physical birth.

 

[Arial]

No he doesn't need to be regenerated. How can God draw a person to Christ if believing is dependent on regeneration? You effectively have to have a person saved before the Gospel on that basis.

Not true but there is no point in trying to explain it to you again.

 

[Arial]

The moment God says "I will save whoever believes" you can bet your sweet bippy He's obligated to save or do you think He should not keep His word?

Actually He says whomever I choose to save will believe. And He does not say whosoever believes I will save. He says whosoever believes is saved.

 

[fastfredy0]

I think everyone agrees with the idea that people choose to believe which is part of salvation just as regeneration is an essential part of salvation. The crux of the matter is "what is the cause of our choosing" and what verses authenticate the CAUSE of our choosing.
Verses like "chose you this day" for example show that we have a choice but they do not tell us the cause of that choice. Did I choose independently or did some outside force(s) cause me to choose. For example, stats show people choose what their parents choose 75% of the time(est.) when it comes to religious beliefs. That is evidence that parents determine our choices. The crux of the matter is: "What does the bible say as to the cause of our believing".

Job 35:7-8, John 1:12-13, John 6:29, Acts 13:48, Hebrews 12:2, etc.

 

[sawdust]

Actually He says whomever I choose to save will believe. And He does not say whosoever believes I will save. He says whosoever believes is saved.

That's right, whosoever believes will be saved. It doesn't say whoever I choose to save will believe. If that were the case and none of us had any responsibility for what we believe, we would all believe the same thing.

 

[sawdust]

Not true but there is no point in trying to explain it to you again.

Instead of just telling me I'm wrong why don't you explain how someone can learn from the Father (Jn.6:45) which, necessitates believing in Him and therefore, according to you, must be regenerated, but has not yet come to Christ?

 

[sawdust]

More nonsense...

Great argument. Explains everything.

 

[Arial]

That's right, whosoever believes will be saved. It doesn't say whoever I choose to save will believe. If that were the case and none of us had any responsibility for what we believe, we would all believe the same thing.

What do you think happened to the human race when Adam disobeyed God and was cast out of the Garden of Eden?
What about that incident prompts the Bible to speak of us as being born in Adam and says we are reborn in Christ the second Adam?

This is the key to understanding how Reformed theology arrives at its conclusions. When I have your answer to the above questions, we can begin to untangle the knot of misunderstanding.

 

[Arial]

Verses like "chose you this day" for example show that we have a choice but they do not tell us the cause of that choice. Did I choose independently or did some outside force(s) cause me to choose.

As this verse containing "choose you this day" in Joshua is often used by those who say we make our own choice to show that we can choose, I explain the difference between what is being spoken of here and then applying it to choosing Christ. There is a sharp distinction that removes the argument.

Joshua 24 :15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.

Reference to Deut 30:19-20 is also used to promote our ability to choose Christ. But these passages and the ones that come before it, follow the renewal of the covenant at Moab seen in chapter 29.

So in regards to this choosing we have a specific covenant community that has specific laws and commandments. Blessing and cursing are attached to this covenant depending on the obedience or disobedience of the covenant participants to those commandments and laws. The choice between two things is spelled out in detail by God. And the choice is obedience or disobedience to the covenant laws and commandments.

What it is not is a declaration that man can choose Christ. It had only to do with God being their God in protection and provision within that community, or removing His protection and provision for disobedience.

Nowhere in the NT is believing in Christ attached to making a choice. It is simply and only stated as believing, or repenting which can only follow believing.

 

[David1701]

I think everyone agrees with the idea that people choose to believe which is part of salvation just as regeneration is an essential part of salvation. The crux of the matter is "what is the cause of our choosing" and what verses authenticate the CAUSE of our choosing.
Verses like "chose you this day" for example show that we have a choice but they do not tell us the cause of that choice. Did I choose independently or did some outside force(s) cause me to choose. For example, stats show people choose what their parents choose 75% of the time(est.) when it comes to religious beliefs. That is evidence that parents determine our choices. The crux of the matter is: "What does the bible say as to the cause of our believing".

Job 35:7-8, John 1:12-13, John 6:29, Acts 13:48, Hebrews 12:2, etc.

The Bible never says that anyone's faith in the Lord is a result of human choice.

 

[sawdust]

What do you think happened to the human race when Adam disobeyed God and was cast out of the Garden of Eden?
What about that incident prompts the Bible to speak of us as being born in Adam and says we are reborn in Christ the second Adam?

This is the key to understanding how Reformed theology arrives at its conclusions. When I have your answer to the above questions, we can begin to untangle the knot of misunderstanding.

There is no misunderstanding, not on my part. We both believe in total depravity the difference in our thinking is how God deals with it. To say God "causes us to believe" is fraught with problems for both the saved and unsaved.

You don't seem to want to explain the ramifications of what you believe, so as far as I am concerned, there is nothing further to discuss.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[fastfredy0]

The Bible never says that anyone's faith in the Lord is a result of human choice.

I think I may see your point of view. I define choice as "nothing impeding us doing as we desire" and from that vantage point I would say that when it comes to salvific faith we have a choice; we do as we desire.
Now, if choice means "one decision is uninfluenced by external entities", then I would say we don't have a choice because God determined our desires.