What Type of Calvinist am I -discussion thread

[David1701]

Thank you for that clarification.

You're welcome.

 

[David1701]

Just what do we see when one see's the Kingdom of God? To be honest I think only those who have died have seen or entered into the Kingdom of God.

Another point that I really should have made in my last post, is that there are only two spiritual kingdoms: the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. You are either in one or the other...

Remember that the Lord Jesus said that the Kingdom of God does not come by outward appearance, but is within us.

 

[CrowCross]

Another point that I really should have made in my last post, is that there are only two spiritual kingdoms: the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. You are either in one or the other...

Remember that the Lord Jesus said that the Kingdom of God does not come by outward appearance, but is within us.

I might add...the kingdom of God is only in those who are regenerated believers.

 

[ppierac]

You have no clue..... You think your beliefs... matter?

I'm going o give you a pass ... too actually... see your stupid post...

 

[ppierac]

You have no clue..... You think your beliefs... matter?

I'm going to give you a pass ... too actually... see your stupid post...

 

[David1701]

I might add...the kingdom of God is only in those who are regenerated believers.

Yes, of course. I very recently posted that we must be born again, in order to "see" and enter the Kingdom of God, as you know.

 

[sawdust]

No.

Regeneration necessarily PRECEDES faith in Jesus Christ, as the Lord told Nicodemus. You MUST be born again, in order to "see" and enter the Kingdom of God; and we know that we enter the Kingdom of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

John 3:3-7 (Webster)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {again: or, from above}
4 Nicodemus saith to him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born again. {again: or, from above}

Salvation is OF THE LORD, not fallen man's sinful will.

Rom. 9:14-16 (Webster)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? By no means.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

I'm gonna be up front with you and say I am sick to the eye teeth with this whole "you're not saved by man's will" argument when I have not in any way suggested we are. When you go into a restaurant and choose something from the menu, is it placed in front of you by your will? Or is it the work of the waiter and chef who does the cooking and serving? In the same way our will does not get us saved, in fact it has no real power to do anything except reveal who and what we are. It is God who saves and He has determined to save believers. The only thing your choice does is determine if you are a believer or an unbeliever. If God had determined not to save believers, you will still be standing there unsaved no matter how much or how hard you believed.

So, if you want to continue the discussion let us at least begin from that point of reality. If you are unable or unwilling to concede that, then further discussion is pointless.

 

[David1701]

I'm gonna be up front with you and say I am sick to the eye teeth with this whole "you're not saved by man's will" argument when I have not in any way suggested we are. When you go into a restaurant and choose something from the menu, is it placed in front of you by your will? Or is it the work of the waiter and chef who does the cooking and serving? In the same way our will does not get us saved, in fact it has no real power to do anything except reveal who and what we are. It is God who saves and He has determined to save believers. The only thing your choice does is determine if you are a believer or an unbeliever. If God had determined not to save believers, you will still be standing there unsaved no matter how much or how hard you believed.

So, if you want to continue the discussion let us at least begin from that point of reality. If you are unable or unwilling to concede that, then further discussion is pointless.

The Bible (remember that?) says that faith is a gift from God; however, it never says that faith in Jesus Christ is the result of sinful man's choice.

Take the scenario in which two men hear the same gospel message: one repents and believes, the other remains in unbelief. Your view would mean that the one who believed made himself to differ from the one who remained in unbelief. This is flatly contradicted by the Bible, and would lead to boasting.

1 Cor. 4:7 (MKJV) For who makes you to differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

This is the reality. Now, are you willing to face it?

 

[sawdust]

The Bible (remember that?) says that faith is a gift from God; however, it never says that faith in Jesus Christ is the result of sinful man's choice.

Take the scenario in which two men hear the same gospel message: one repents and believes, the other remains in unbelief. Your view would mean that the one who believed made himself to differ from the one who remained in unbelief. This is flatly contradicted by the Bible, and would lead to boasting.

1 Cor. 4:7 (MKJV) For who makes you to differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

This is the reality. Now, are you willing to face it?

Yes, faith is a gift to those believing. Not hard to undestand. It is God's will to gift salvation (by grace through faith) to those who are believing in Him. You're believing is not faith, faith comes form the word. (Rom.10:17)

The only thing one's will does is reveal who are the believers and who are the unbelievers.

 

[David1701]

Yes, faith is a gift to those believing. Not hard to undestand. It is God's will to gift salvation (by grace through faith) to those who are believing in Him. You're believing is not faith, faith comes form the word. (Rom.10:17)

The only thing one's will does is reveal who are the believers and who are the unbelievers.

Faith and belief are synonyms! It's the same Greek word for both. Believing in Jesus Christ is not merely accepting facts about him (which would be mental assent), but trusting in him completely (i.e. faith).

I recommend that you do some study, before posting any more nonsense...

 

[ReverendRV]

Written by @Buff Scott Jr.

“WHAT TYPE OF CALVINIST AM I?”

Let’s Start With Calvin
Question: “Do we have a will?” Yes, of course we have a will. [John] Calvin said, ‘If you mean by a free will a faculty of choosing by which you have the power within yourself to choose what you desire, then we all have free will. If you mean by free will the ability for fallen human beings to incline themselves and exercise that will to choose the things of God without the prior work of regeneration, then free will is far too grandiose a term to apply to a human being.’ ”

Interpretation
As per the mindset of the average Calvinist, man has a free will and can choose to do anything in his natural environment, but his free will and ability to choose ends at that point. He cannot exercise free will and choose to obey God until he is “regenerated.” Hyper-Calvinists claim that he must be born again before he can come to the Lord. If you will compare that sentiment to numerous biblical passages that teach the opposite, you will find that this dogma collides with heaven’s testimony. Jesus clearly says a man may choose whether or not to obey God. But how may he choose unless he is endowed with free will? Note, please, Jesus’ words in John 7:17:
“If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God...”

Quickened, Made Alive, Regenerated
But is he quickened, made alive, or regenerated prior to his choosing to obey God? A receptive person is quickened or made alive when he hears the message of salvation. Up to that point, he is “dead”—inactive, dormant—to the things of God. But when he hears the message of salvation, he “comes alive,” is “quickened,” or “regenerated.” However, this does not translate into being born again. It is only the beginning of the new birth process, as “faith comes by hearing the message” [of salvation] (Rom. 10:17). The new birth cannot be experienced without faith, without reformation (repentance), and without complete surrender to the Lord’s injunctions. Listen to the writer of the Book of Hebrews:

“And without faith it is impossible to please God” (Heb. 11:6).

[More Later]

This is like when I say the New Birth is two-fold; the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewal of the Spirit; our Faith is sandwiched in between these two...


But is he quickened, made alive, or regenerated prior to his choosing to obey God? A receptive person is quickened or made alive when he hears the message of salvation. Up to that point, he is “dead”—inactive, dormant—to the things of God. But when he hears the message of salvation, he “comes alive,” is “quickened,” or “regenerated.” However, this does not translate into being born again. It is only the beginning of the new birth process, as “faith comes by hearing the message” [of salvation] (Rom. 10:17). The new birth cannot be experienced without faith, without reformation (repentance), and without complete surrender to the Lord’s injunctions. Listen to the writer of the Book of Hebrews: https://christcentered.community.fo...vinist-am-i-discussion-thread.1001/post-34090


That's the kind of Calvinist I am...

 

[Carbon]

This is like when I say the New Birth is two-fold; the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewal of the Spirit; our Faith is sandwiched in between these two...

I believe this is one thing.

But is he quickened, made alive, or regenerated prior to his choosing to obey God? A receptive person is quickened or made alive when he hears the message of salvation. Up to that point, he is “dead”—inactive, dormant—to the things of God.

Are you really saying a regenerated person, until they express faith, they are dead?

But when he hears the message of salvation, he “comes alive,” is “quickened,” or “regenerated.”

This is not the biblical ordo salutis. Sorry, I disagree.

However, this does not translate into being born again. It is only the beginning of the new birth process, as “faith comes by hearing the message” [of salvation] (Rom. 10:17).

To believe is what a person must do to be justified.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John8:24.

The new birth cannot be experienced without faith, without reformation (repentance), and without complete surrender to the Lord’s injunctions. Listen to the writer of the Book of Hebrews: https://christcentered.community.fo...vinist-am-i-discussion-thread.1001/post-34090


That's the kind of Calvinist I am...

Of course the new birth cannot be experienced without faith, that's why faith is a part of it.

 

[ReverendRV]

I believe this is one thing.

Are you really saying a regenerated person, until they express faith, they are dead?

This is not the biblical ordo salutis. Sorry, I disagree.

To believe is what a person must do to be justified.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John8:24.

Of course the new birth cannot be experienced without faith, that's why faith is a part of it.

It's your OP, I thought this is what you Believe. No, I think Washing and Renewal happen at the same time; but even the Bible puts them in Logical Order...

If I read your OP as what you Believe, the Lurkers probably read it that way too...

 

[Carbon]

It's your OP, I thought this is what you Believe. No, I think Washing and Renewal happen at the same time; but even the Bible puts them in Logical Order...

If I read your OP as what you Believe, the Lurkers probably read it that way too...

You missed this part of the OP. "Written by @Buff Scott Jr."

 

[ReverendRV]

You missed this part of the OP. "Written by @Buff Scott Jr."

Oops, sorry...

Is Buff a Calvinist? It sounds like it so far...

 

[Carbon]

Written by: @Buff Scott Jr.

Quickened, Made Alive, Regenerated
But is he quickened, made alive, or regenerated prior to his choosing to obey God?

I would say so.

A receptive person is quickened or made alive when he hears the message of salvation.

No, scripture does not teach that.

Up to that point, he is “dead”—inactive, dormant—to the things of God. But when he hears the message of salvation, he “comes alive,” is “quickened,” or “regenerated.”

Where do you find this teaching in scripture? It is impossible that the internal call by itself should produce faith in the heart of the natural man. The natural man cannot exercise saving faith since he cannot see the kingdom (John 3:3) of God and its treasures.

You are describing salvation as synergistic and you are in error.

However, this does not translate into being born again. It is only the beginning of the new birth process, as “faith comes by hearing the message” [of salvation] (Rom. 10:17). The new birth cannot be experienced without faith, without reformation (repentance), and without complete surrender to the Lord’s injunctions. Listen to the writer of the Book of Hebrews:

One who lacks a regenerated heart, his faith does not proceed from the innermost depts (new heart) of his being, but instead, this type of faith has its seat in emotionalism.
And in order for us to believe (have faith), the natural enmity against God must be done away with, if we are to entrust ourselves to Christ. Once regeneration takes place, then and only then does man respond faithfully to the gospel. Through regeneration, the gospel message is applied to the heart by the Holy Spirit. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Hebrews 8:10.

“And without faith it is impossible to please God” (Heb. 11:6).

Amen to that.

 

[ReverendRV]

Carbon:

If I might add a few more comments/responses on your post, as well as to a few other posts on Calvinism.

More On Man’s Ability To Choose God

To extricate the idea that man is incapable of choosing God, Romans, chapter 1, needs to be revisited and appraised. Paul writes about the wickedness of man, apparently the Gentile pagans, and says that “what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them...from what has been made [created things], so that men are without excuse.”

He goes on to say, “Although they knew God [His eternal power and divine nature], they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him” (Rom. 1:18-32). Paul continues by saying that “they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God” (v. 28). Here is what we have:

1) These Gentile pagans knew God through the revelation of creation.
2) They were free to either choose God or reject Him through the only revelation to which they had access.
3) They were free to glorify God and offer their thanksgiving.
4) They even retained the knowledge of God, but cast it aside.
5) Had they glorified God and given Him thanks, they would have become part of the elect, but since they refused Him, they remained part of the non-elect.

Clarfying The Above
1. Any competent person upon the face of God’s footstool may seek Him, find Him, and choose Him. “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life” (Rom. 2:7). As verse 9 reveals, Paul is talking about “every human being.”

2. If God enables a man to seek Him, He also gives him the ability to choose Him! Here’s another clincher: Paul, in referring to the entire human family, writes, “God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each of us” (Acts 17:27).

3. But how may a man—any man—seek God and find Him if he is void of free will and the ability to choose? So, who is accessible and who does the seeking? God, of course, makes Himself available to every man, everywhere, after which some men choose to accept Him while others choose to reject Him. Those who accept Him are His elect. God knew who they were before the foundation of the universe. On that basis, predestination seems to rest.

4. The scriptures above demonstrate rather strongly that God has not constrained a segment of the population to be saved and arbitrarily by-passed all others. They establish the truth that anyone and everyone may choose to accept God or reject Him. Paul’s words—as well as Jesus’—forever dispels the main thrusts of Calvinism. There is absolutely no way to turn these facts around in an effort to give them a different meaning. Let’s put it like this:

The receptive heart will seek God and find Him. The non-receptive heart will not seek Him. He will remain dead in his sins.

The Calvinist asks, “But how does a man achieve a receptive heart? Who gave it to him? How did he come by it?” And I answer: Each person has been granted the ability to develop either a receptive heart or a non-receptive heart. In other words, God enables us to be receptive or non-receptive. The decision is ours. For if God forces a receptive heart upon those whom he foreknew, He has also forced a non-receptive heart upon those he did not foreknow. This translates into the truth that our God has compelled a segment of the population to be saved and the remainder to be lost. This bit of untruth clashes with heaven’s testimony.

Some of the Calvinists I’ve been in touch with, assert, “Man may choose, but he always chooses to disobey God, because he is so totally depraved.” This runs 100% counter to what Jesus declares. “If anyone chooses to do God’s will...” (John 7:17). The two statements cannot, under any circumstances, be reconciled. Either Jesus is wrong or the Calvinist is wrong. I’ll go with Jesus!​

You call yourself a High/Hyper Calvinist?

According to how you describe your Beliefs, that doesn't sound correct.

 

[Carbon]

You call yourself a High/Hyper Calvinist?

According to how you describe your Beliefs, that doesn't sound correct.

I am not a hyper.

What doesn't sound correct? Hyper? That's because I'm not. But you have sparked my interest. Would you point out what you mean "exactly?"

 

[David1701]

This is like when I say the New Birth is two-fold; the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewal of the Spirit; our Faith is sandwiched in between these two...


But is he quickened, made alive, or regenerated prior to his choosing to obey God? A receptive person is quickened or made alive when he hears the message of salvation. Up to that point, he is “dead”—inactive, dormant—to the things of God. But when he hears the message of salvation, he “comes alive,” is “quickened,” or “regenerated.” However, this does not translate into being born again. It is only the beginning of the new birth process, as “faith comes by hearing the message” [of salvation] (Rom. 10:17). The new birth cannot be experienced without faith, without reformation (repentance), and without complete surrender to the Lord’s injunctions. Listen to the writer of the Book of Hebrews: https://christcentered.community.fo...vinist-am-i-discussion-thread.1001/post-34090


That's the kind of Calvinist I am...

New birth process?? Where does the Bible say that the new birth is a process?

 

[ReverendRV]

I am not a hyper.

What doesn't sound correct? Hyper? That's because I'm not. But you have sparked my interest. Would you point out what you mean "exactly?"

Sorry, I thought this was Buff's Post too...

Forums can be confusing; it read as if he posted this in response to you here on this Thread; not the other Thread...