What Type of Calvinist am I -discussion thread

[sawdust]

Can you show how faith is salvific without it being generated by the Spirit of God?

No I can't because I do not believe it is possible to have faith apart from the ministry of the Spirit.

It is the Spirit who brings this ministry to us because He is the One who begets our spirit so that we are made spiritually alive. (Jn.3:6) He then imputes eternal life to our spirit so that we may know God. (Jn.17:3) God does not save us because we believe, He saves us because He has determined that trusting Him is the right and sane thing to do (He knows that leads to Life) and He desires to be in a relationship with people who trust Him because of their own free will.

I have said all along that faith comes form the word. (Rom.10:17). No Gospel, no faith. The power for faith comes by means of God's grace working through the word which produces faith. I don't know how to say it any plainer. The problem, as I see it, is twofold.

One is people seem to constantly confuse a persons positive volitional response (ie. I believe) as being faith. That is not faith. Faith is assurance and conviction (Heb.11:1) You can sit there till Kingdom come saying I believe God will save me, hoping He will, wanting Him to, believing He can but unless God applies His grace through the word you will continue to sit there without any assurance. And even if you are a brand new baby Christian full of confusion and lack understanding and wonder if you are really saved (assuming you are saved)? Then all you need do is sit still and listen to the word and not lean on your own understanding and you will have that assurance because the word does not lie.

The other is they seem to think the heart is created depraved rather than understanding it becomes depraved because of the flesh and has no other option because of being spiritually dead. But grace doesn't begin with the Gospel it begins with our very first breath for if not for the grace of God we would not enter this world alive. His power is no problem for the flesh and His Spirit has no problem making blind men see even if they are spiritually dead and desire to remain that way like those in Romans 1:19-23.

Our lives begin and end by means of God's grace. It does far more than save people from spiritual death and being spiritually alive is no guarantee of loving truth more than self. Just ask one third of the angels.

 

[Arial]

I did not move the goal posts. I asked you the same question back in post#94. Here it is again.

You need to go back to the start of our discussion. Your first post to me was to tell me I'm wrong. Your second post to me was to tell me what I think. You have repeatedly told me I'm ignorant on a variety of things and when I do ask a question you completely bypass the post. So stop with the pot calling the kettle black. I'm not interested in what you think or what I think. I'm interested in reality. So back to the question I asked.

If you think that you can learn from someone without believing and trusting what they say is true? I'm simply at a loss for words. Is that how you learn? (I still think you are confusing believing (response ability from one's volition) with faith.) And whether you like it or not, believing is a choice. If it wasn't, you couldn't disbelieve. To say those being drawn are not believers? Utterly baffles me why you would think that. They don't know exactly who they believe as yet, but they are believers in the One God. You are correct in that it is Election because Election is all about what the Father chooses to do with believers. He has elected them to be in Christ, not the Garden, not the Ark, not Moses, not the Land but in Christ. The doctrine of Election is applicable to believers only. It is not applied to unbelievers ergo these people being drawn must be believers.

Still making your post about the poster and not addressing the posts.

 

[Carbon]

Can you show how faith is salvific without it being generated by the Spirit of God?

No. He cannot.

 

[sawdust]

Still making your post about the poster and not addressing the posts.

Still not answering my question.

 

[sawdust]

No. He cannot.

Which is exactly what I said.

 

[Arial]

Which is exactly what I said.

Try this.

Then how can one who is believing in the Father do so when they are not yet saved as per John 6:45?

No one who is not saved is believing in the Father. And John 6:45 does not say that. It says those who have been taught by God----heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me. That is a direct expression of election. Regeneration---heard and learned----come to Christ---believe.

 

[sawdust]

Try this.

And I then asked you ....

If you think that you can learn from someone without believing and trusting what they say is true? I'm simply at a loss for words. Is that how you learn?

Do you learn by not believing what you're told as being true?

 

[Arial]

And I then asked you ....

Do you learn by not believing what you're told as being true?

None of that makes any sense at all but it is definitely not discussing any post. Just more accusations and insults. Knock it off.

 

[sawdust]

None of that makes any sense at all but it is definitely not discussing any post. Just more accusations and insults. Knock it off.

How on earth is it an insult to ask you how do you learn? You make a statement without any rationale to back it up so I'm asking you to explain yourself. You said they learn from the Father but they don't believe Him. Explain how that can be.

 

[Arial]

How on earth is it an insult to ask you how do you learn? You make a statement without any rationale to back it up so I'm asking you to explain yourself. You said they learn from the Father but they don't believe Him. Explain how that can be.

Produce the quote where I said "they learn from the Father but they don't believe Him." If you cannot then you have violated the forum rule of misstating what someone says and then arguing from the misstatement.

Pay attention and respond to the post, not make accusations against the poster.
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets,'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me---
My question to you before I explain this for you, would be, why are you taking a portion of a sentence, isolating it from the context of what Jesus has been saying and to whom, and their reaction to His words, and applying it to something it bears no relation to, and then asking "what does this mean?" in respect to the question of effectual grace. What you applied it to was whether or not the new birth comes first or believing comes first. Making it say I suppose, "How can that be if this verse says this?"

Jesus has been in the previous verses, saying that He is the bread of life that came down from heaven. They do not believe Him saying they know where He came from and who His parents are. It is then that Jesus makes this statement, a direct quote from Is 53:13; Jer 31:34, both of which are referring to the new covenant and the future restoration.

Then Jesus says "not that anyone has seen the Father except He who is from God; He as seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life."

Before these sayings Jesus said in verse 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." Followed by "It is written in the Prophets, 'and they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me---"
That verse: Is 53:13 is a promise of final redemption. Those who participate in the redemption are those who come to Him, identifying Himself as the One through whom that final redemption comes. This is the point of His conversation on His being the bread that came down from heaven. Everyone who desires to come to Him may come, and they come because they have learned from the Father. This is the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration. It is not the result of human reasoning, or human desires, or human learning apart from the Spirit, or human choices. We have a moral inability to do this by virtue of being in Adam.

You are simply imposing your view of grace as evenly distributed among all people so as to make them capable of learning from God and then making a decision, (my understanding of what you have said) onto the scriptures. If that is your position then you need to support it with apologetics, rather than just say it and produce "proof texts" with no exegesis as support. You would need to take all the scriptures that speak of an effectual God who would only send effectual grace, all those places that speak of "calling," "election," "predestination," "elect," into consideration.

 

[sawdust]

Produce the quote where I said "they learn from the Father but they don't believe Him." If you cannot then you have violated the forum rule of misstating what someone says and then arguing from the misstatement.

Pay attention and respond to the post, not make accusations against the poster.
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets,'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me---
My question to you before I explain this for you, would be, why are you taking a portion of a sentence, isolating it from the context of what Jesus has been saying and to whom, and their reaction to His words, and applying it to something it bears no relation to, and then asking "what does this mean?" in respect to the question of effectual grace. What you applied it to was whether or not the new birth comes first or believing comes first. Making it say I suppose, "How can that be if this verse says this?"

Jesus has been in the previous verses, saying that He is the bread of life that came down from heaven. They do not believe Him saying they know where He came from and who His parents are. It is then that Jesus makes this statement, a direct quote from Is 53:13; Jer 31:34, both of which are referring to the new covenant and the future restoration.

Then Jesus says "not that anyone has seen the Father except He who is from God; He as seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life."

Before these sayings Jesus said in verse 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." Followed by "It is written in the Prophets, 'and they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me---"
That verse: Is 53:13 is a promise of final redemption. Those who participate in the redemption are those who come to Him, identifying Himself as the One through whom that final redemption comes. This is the point of His conversation on His being the bread that came down from heaven. Everyone who desires to come to Him may come, and they come because they have learned from the Father. This is the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration. It is not the result of human reasoning, or human desires, or human learning apart from the Spirit, or human choices. We have a moral inability to do this by virtue of being in Adam.

You are simply imposing your view of grace as evenly distributed among all people so as to make them capable of learning from God and then making a decision, (my understanding of what you have said) onto the scriptures. If that is your position then you need to support it with apologetics, rather than just say it and produce "proof texts" with no exegesis as support. You would need to take all the scriptures that speak of an effectual God who would only send effectual grace, all those places that speak of "calling," "election," "predestination," "elect," into consideration.

Just as you impose your understanding of election and regeneration before faith on the scriptures. You don't seem to see the contradiction in what you say. You say everyone who desires to come may come but at the same time you say no-one can come unless they are regenerated. But if they are regenerated, they have no need to come because they are already there. The scripture says they come to Christ because they learn from the Father not because they are already saved (regenerated). There is a process in coming to Christ. You don't just wake up one morning hear the Gospel and believe it. One must first believe God exists and will answer them. (Heb.11:6) Then they must know they are a sinner and that God is wholly righteous and there is to be judgement between the two and they are eternally condemned. (Jn.16:8) Then and only then, are they ready to hear the Gospel. This is why John 6:45 says what it says about learning from the Father. Once a person learns these 5 things which, requires believing them to be true, are they then ready to hear and believe the Gospel unto salvation.

The problem is you think the ony effect of grace has to result in salvation. There are people in the world right now whose only end is the lake of fire and they are kept alive only by the grace of God. God's grace reveals the truth of what is good and what is evil. Accept it or reject. You are free to do so.

 

[Arial]

Just as you impose your understanding of election and regeneration before faith on the scriptures.

I don't impose it on the scriptures, I derive if from the scriptures. I don't isolate any one scripture from the whole. You do. I showed you where you were doing that in this post.

You don't seem to see the contradiction in what you say. You say everyone who desires to come may come but at the same time you say no-one can come unless they are regenerated.

There is no contradiction. The ones who desire to come are the ones that have been regenerated. "The Father gives them to Me and I will lose none." (Paraphrase.) "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him." Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

But if they are regenerated, they have no need to come because they are already there.

That is foolishness. They have to be placed in Christ and that is done by hearing the gospel and believing it. The regeneration is what makes them able to believe when they hear. And it is by grace. Regeneration is an act of grace.

The scripture says they come to Christ because they learn from the Father not because they are already saved (regenerated).

That is what regeneration is. Learning from the Father. Regeneration isn't just a word, it is an action within a person done by the Holy Spirit. Very rarely are we aware of it---I was but I did not know that is what it was until long after, though I knew when I woke the next morning that I believed every thing in the Bible. And them I had to read to see what it said. What do you think learn from the Father means?

There is a process in coming to Christ. You don't just wake up one morning hear the Gospel and believe it.

See above. I had already heard the gospel, many, many times and didn't believe it. Until I did. It can happen in any way that God does it.

One must first believe God exists and will answer them. (Heb.11:6)

You interpret that scripture one way but it could also simply mean that those who come to Him believe that He exists. They certainly do when they come to Him but they don't have to believe He exists before----other than the Bible tell us everyone knows He exists regardless of what they may say.

Then they must know they are a sinner and that God is wholly righteous and there is to be judgement between the two and they are eternally condemned.

They don't know that. They are at enmity with God. You are adding a whole lot of things necessary for salvation other than Christ, though I do not think you realize that. If someone becomes aware that they are a sinner etc. it is because they have been regenerated.

The problem is you think the ony effect of grace has to result in salvation. There are people in the world right now whose only end is the lake of fire and they are kept alive only by the grace of God. God's grace reveals the truth of what is good and what is evil. Accept it or reject. You are free to do so.

You are not equipped to say what I think. I do not think what you say I think at all. There is common grace and there is saving grace. We are talking about saving grace. You make it common when you say the grace to be able to choose is given to all.

 

[sawdust]

You make it common when you say the grace to be able to choose is given to all.

I've never said that.

 

[sawdust]

That is foolishness. They have to be placed in Christ and that is done by hearing the gospel and believing it. The regeneration is what makes them able to believe when they hear. And it is by grace. Regeneration is an act of grace.

You still have regeneration before the Gospel. The Gospel is the power unto salvation not regeneration. Regeneration is the result of the Gospel.

 

[makesends]

One is people seem to constantly confuse a persons positive volitional response (ie. I believe) as being faith. That is not faith. Faith is assurance and conviction (Heb.11:1) You can sit there till Kingdom come saying I believe God will save me, hoping He will, wanting Him to, believing He can but unless God applies His grace through the word you will continue to sit there without any assurance. And even if you are a brand new baby Christian full of confusion and lack understanding and wonder if you are really saved (assuming you are saved)? Then all you need do is sit still and listen to the word and not lean on your own understanding and you will have that assurance because the word does not lie.

Can you put quotes around the part you can say till Kingdom come, here? I can't tell where you are still quoting and where you are positing your claim.

 

[makesends]

The other is they seem to think the heart is created depraved rather than understanding it becomes depraved because of the flesh and has no other option because of being spiritually dead. But grace doesn't begin with the Gospel it begins with our very first breath for if not for the grace of God we would not enter this world alive. His power is no problem for the flesh and His Spirit has no problem making blind men see even if they are spiritually dead and desire to remain that way like those in Romans 1:19-23.

Our lives begin and end by means of God's grace

"Our lives begin and end" and their very existence is "by the grace of God". How does that deny that the heart is depraved from birth? Who says "they have no other option"? They have the option, but always choose corruptly —even when on the surface they are choosing what is right.

The Bible does teach that the heart becomes more corrupt, but that is a different use from what is referred to by "Total Depravity". I don't mean to belittle you, but it really is simple —Total Depravity is corruption to the core. It doesn't mean that a person cannot become more corrupt. It is not a question of degree, nor is salvific faith a question of degree. The one is the lack of the Spirit of God, the other is the direct result of regeneration by the Spirit of God. The one is death, the other is life.

And humans are born corrupt. (No, I didn't say, "created corrupt").

 

[sawdust]

Can you put quotes around the part you can say till Kingdom come, here? I can't tell where you are still quoting and where you are positing your claim.

"till Kingdom come" is just a saying meaning you will be forever waiting. Same as saying "till the cows come home".

 

[sawdust]

"Our lives begin and end" and their very existence is "by the grace of God". How does that deny that the heart is depraved from birth? Who says "they have no other option"? They have the option, but always choose corruptly —even when on the surface they are choosing what is right.

The Bible does teach that the heart becomes more corrupt, but that is a different use from what is referred to by "Total Depravity". I don't mean to belittle you, but it really is simple —Total Depravity is corruption to the core. It doesn't mean that a person cannot become more corrupt. It is not a question of degree, nor is salvific faith a question of degree. The one is the lack of the Spirit of God, the other is the direct result of regeneration by the Spirit of God. The one is death, the other is life.

And humans are born corrupt. (No, I didn't say, "created corrupt").

God creates the soul, He doesn't create corruption that's why the heart is not corrupted at birth, it is neutral, neither good nor evil. The sin nature is in the flesh. Romans 7 deals with this. We are intrinsically flawed (sinners) from birth. We are not intrinsically evil from birth.

Total Depravity is the doctrine of being locked into that system of corruption without any way out by our own means. As Paul says "who will deliver me from this body of death." (Rom.7:21-25)

It is the flesh that is against the Spirit not the mind per se. Rather, the mind set on the flesh is against the Spirit of God. Without grace and the Spirit of God at work in the world, the mind has no choice but to be governed by the flesh. No matter how much you may not want to sin? You will sin because the flesh demands "self first" in all things.

 

[Arial]

You still have regeneration before the Gospel. The Gospel is the power unto salvation not regeneration. Regeneration is the result of the Gospel.

Please address what I said. I showed you what regeneration was and how one is placed in Christ by hearing the gospel and believing it. Until one is regenerated they won't believe the gospel when they hear it.

Give your definition of regeneration.

The rest of my post went completely ignored. This has become a very tiresome and disturbing habit of many on the forum. It effectively ends all constructive dialog.

 

[Arial]

I've never said that.

Tell me then what you say saving grace is.