What Type of Calvinist am I -discussion thread

[sawdust]

It is not at birth, that God creates the baby. Your sequence of logic is, uh, hanging out past the cliff in your cloud of dust...

Flesh gives birth to flesh (Jn.3:6) Our souls are not created by our parents, our souls come from God, created in His image. (Gen.1:26)

 

[sawdust]

They all work together in unison but are distinct. All part of the same thing of God saving (giving to Christ) but are distinct. In God's economy it does not have to be a visible to us, process such as you are seeing it. I.e. Step 1. Then step 2. Then step 3.

This discussion began because I disagree with the Calvinist view that regeneration precedes faith. I say faith first and I have said very early on that the two happen in such rapid succession that they can be considered to happen simultaneously. Yet, we are looking at this as if we are near the event horizon of a black hole where time is slowed to the point where things appear to have stopped in order to establish what exactly comes first. The moment one is born from above thay have passed from (spiritual) death into (spiritual) life. Ergo, they are saved. Yet you would now try to apply the Gospel. It is effectively "preaching to the choir". You are trying to apply what scripture says is the power of salvation to that one who is already saved. The Gospel (and when I say Gospel I am referring specifically to the death and resurrection of Christ as per 1Cor.15:3&4) is for the unbeliever and is what saves us and the Gospel is for faith. Hence, you are saved by grace through faith, not by grace through regeneration.

 

[Arial]

This discussion began because I disagree with the Calvinist view that regeneration precedes faith. I say faith first and I have said very early on that the two happen in such rapid succession that they can be considered to happen simultaneously. Yet, we are looking at this as if we are near the event horizon of a black hole where time is slowed to the point where things appear to have stopped in order to establish what exactly comes first. The moment one is born from above thay have passed from (spiritual) death into (spiritual) life. Ergo, they are saved. Yet you would now try to apply the Gospel. It is effectively "preaching to the choir". You are trying to apply what scripture says is the power of salvation to that one who is already saved. The Gospel (and when I say Gospel I am referring specifically to the death and resurrection of Christ as per 1Cor.15:3&4) is for the unbeliever and is what saves us and the Gospel is for faith. Hence, you are saved by grace through faith, not by grace through regeneration.

You didn't answer the question of how one is to believe in the gospel if they are dead in their sins? What quickens them to life?

 

[sawdust]

Jesus saves. The gospel is the good news of who He is and what He did for us. Believing those things is what places us in Him.

Yes, it's why it is known as the Gospel of Jesus Christ. However, being placed in Him is Election and is the sole decision of God the Father according to His own counsel as to what to do with believers. Not all believers have been placed in Christ. Of all the believers that have and will ever exist, God has chosen some to be in Christ. Only the Church is placed in Christ. It is like you are mashing the doctines of faith, regeneration and election all into one doctrine as if they are all the same thing. Not saying you are, but it appears that way.

If that is what you believe then you will need to give me your definition of what you say regeneration means. Not what it is, what it means. In scripture we see it called the new birth in John 3. So I am asking you to take the full set of passages of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus and give an expository explanation of them.

And then explain to me how one can believe the gospel when they are spiritually dead? Would they not have to be quickened to life first? Eph 2:1-5 would appear to say exactly the opposite.



And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.[b] 4 But[c] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

I have done this Arial. I have explained to you and others in this thread so many times already. What does regeneration mean? It means to be made spiritually alive and if you are no longer dead than you have been saved from death. How can God make a spiritually dead person hear the Gospel? GRACE! It is stated in the very scripture you quote. Grace is God's power to get done the things He wants done. The Holy Spirit makes it so the person can hear the truth. He manifests that truth within them and they become as if they were alive so they can stand and face the truth and respond of their own free will just as Adam did in the Garden. If the Romans 1 sort can see the truth of God's eternal power and deity (and they do because God manifests it in them ) then how can you say our spiritual death is a hindrance to God's work of revealing truth?

Romans 1:19
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Eph.1:5 is describing us as we are in our natural state but what is the solution? Grace! But if God applies regeneration in the first instance you no longer need to hear the Gospel because you are already saved. The Gospel is to be applied to the unsaved, not the saved. The saved are reminded of the Gospel, primarily through the Lord's Supper.

Believing is the union with Christ. Acts 16:31; John 1:12. In Eph 1-2 "in Christ" is repeated over and over. "We were chosen in Christ." "We are predestined in Christ." "we are sealed by the Spirit in Christ." Romans 5:12-14. Those who are saved are in Christ. They are not placed there after they have been saved

Moses believed, he was not in Christ. Noah believed, he was not in Christ. Believing is not necessarily being in Christ. Being in Christ is the choice of God as to where to put certain believers. Why us and not Moses or Daniel or Noah? I have no idea, that was God's own choice from His own counsel. Maybe one day He will tell us if we ask but otherwise that remains a mystery. The Doctrine of Election is God choosing what to do with believers, it is only applicable to believers wherever they are elected to be which is why believing and in Christ are connected. It is not God choosing who would be believers which, is what some believe. Some of us got put in Christ and as far as God is concerned, it occurred in "eternity past" based on His foreknowledge ergo, Paul can say we were predestined. It was our destiny because it was God's choice before we even existed what to do with us as believers.

And it did not actually make anyone a "believer" of give eternal life. They were brought into the covenant community, with God as their God, but salvation to eternal life was still only through faith. It was not election unto salvation.

I think you misread what I said. Look at this, these are not the words of an unbeliever. Yet, if Rahab was to enjoy the fruits of that salvation she already had through faith, she would need to associate with Israel.

Joshua 2:11
When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.

 

[ppierac]

What Type of Calvinist am I.... ???​

I'm not a Calvinist.... But have studied more on this topic... than any actual Calvinist I have met!

NASB Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Net Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29(G280) since we were predestined (G4309) according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

Word study
G2820
κληρόω

klēróō; contracted klērṓ, fut. klērṓsō, from klḗros (G2819), a lot. To cast lots, determine by lot, i.e., to determine something, choose someone. In Eph_1:11, it means, "in whom the lot has fallen upon us also, as foreordained thereto . . . to be" (a.t.). The idea expressed here is that Christians have become heirs of God due to the fact that God predestined them according to His purpose. In a manner of speaking, the "lot" fell to believers not by chance but solely because of the gracious and sovereign decision of God- Almighty to select them to be His heirs.
Deriv.: prosklēróō (G4345), to give or assign by lot.

Word study
G4309
προορίζω
proorízō; fut. proorísō, from pró (G4253), before, and horízō (G3724), to determine. To determine or decree beforehand (Act_4:28; Rom_8:29-30; 1Co_2:7; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11). The peace of the Christian Church has been disrupted due to the misunderstanding which surrounds this word. It behooves the Church to consider the divinely intended meaning of this word by carefully examining the critical passages where it is used.

In 1Co_2:7 it has a thing as its obj., namely, the wisdom of God. The purpose was our glory, i.e., our benefits of salvation.

In Act_4:28 the verb is followed by the aor. inf. genésthai (gínomai [G1096], to be, become), to be done. The action of Herod and Pontius Pilate in crucifying Jesus Christ is said to have been predetermined or foreordained by the hand and will of God. This indicates that Christ's mission, especially His death and resurrection, was not ultimately the result of human will but originated in the eternal counsel of God which decreed the event determining all its primary and secondary causes, instruments, agents, and contingencies.

In Rom_8:29-30, predestination is used of God's actions in eternally decreeing both the objects and goal of His plan of salvation. Proorízō has a personal obj., the pl. relative pron. hoús, whom. This relative pron. refers to those previously mentioned as those whom God foreknew (proégnō [G4267]). The translation is, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." The objects of predestination are those whom He foreknew. Predestination does not involve a predetermined plan only but also includes the individuals for whom the plan is devised. The goal of predestination is expressed in the phrase, "to be conformed to the image of his Son."

In Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11 this same purpose of foreordination is termed adoption. Adoption (huiothesía [G5206]) is the placing into sonship or legal heirship of those who are born of God. According to Eph_1:5 the basis of this prior decree is "the good pleasure of His will." The word rendered "good pleasure" is eudokía (G2107) and means pleasure or satisfaction, that which seems good. Paul is careful to add that it is the good pleasure of God's will, it is what seems good to God-not man. Similarly, in Eph_1:11 foreordination is based upon "the purpose (próthesis [G4286]) of the One who is working all things ([neut. acc. pl.] tá pánta [G3844], an idiom for the entire metaphysical and physical universe) according to the decision of His will" (a.t.). This same thinking is reflected in Rom_8:30 where foreordination is joined successively to foreknowledge. Here it is presented not as a capricious, arbitrary or whimsical exercise of raw will or unreasoned impulse, but as the expression of a deliberate and wise plan which purposes to redeem those undeserving sinners whom God freely favors as the objects of His mercy.

Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.

Syn.: protássō (G4384), to appoint before; procheirízō (G4400), to appoint beforehand; proetoimázō (G4282), to prepare before.

Let's let our lord and Savior expaline it to us....

NASB Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,66 and I will raise him up at the last day.

Net Bible
Joh 6:44 -
66 tn Or "attracts him," or "pulls him." The word is used of pulling or dragging, often by force. It is even used once of magnetic attraction (A. Oepke, TDNT 2:503).

sn The Father who sent me draws him. The author never specifically explains what this "drawing" consists of. It is evidently some kind of attraction; whether it is binding and irresistible or not is not mentioned. But there does seem to be a parallel with Joh_6:65, where Jesus says that no one is able to come to him unless the Father has allowed it. This apparently parallels the use of Isaiah by John to reflect the spiritual blindness of the Jewish leaders (see the quotations from Isaiah in Joh_9:41 and Joh_12:39-40).

Now for more Truth...

NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

NASB 2 Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

NASB 2Ti 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.


This is Jesus speaking!!!

NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."


NASB Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."


NASB Joh 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
CEV Joh 17:2 And you gave him power over all people, so that he would give eternal life to everyone you give him.


It's not what you think... Your thinking with in your church Denomination... All the verses I posted are in context and true!!!

and so is this one....

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.



Have fun...with this post... It's loaded with the need for sooo much more research.... LOL

Paul

 

[makesends]

Flesh gives birth to flesh (Jn.3:6) Our souls are not created by our parents, our souls come from God, created in His image. (Gen.1:26)

Of course. What is your point? How does that mean that we are created at birth? Do you think our souls were created at birth?

 

[sawdust]

Of course. What is your point? How does that mean that we are created at birth? Do you think our souls were created at birth?

The point is the heart is not created depraved because it is God who creates the soul (the heart is a function of the soul). The soul is the seat of who we are. Our consciousness, intellect, emotion, volition, our personality is to be found in our soul.

 

[makesends]

The point is the heart is not created depraved because it is God who creates the soul (the heart is a function of the soul). The soul is the seat of who we are. Our consciousness, intellect, emotion, volition, our personality is to be found in our soul.

And, even assuming that what you are saying is valid, we are not what we are becoming; how does any of this mean that we are created at birth?

But since you refuse to see what I am trying to get at, we will go to your thesis —so, who is this, that, according to you, says that anyone is created depraved? I don't know anyone who says we are created depraved. I know many who say we are created in the image of God, and that we are become depraved as inheriting (or several other terms) of Adam's sin. What has BIRTH to do with that? Where is it said that birth is the dividing line in such things?

 

[sawdust]

But since you refuse to see what I am trying to get at, we will go to your thesis

I am not refusing, you are just confusing. I can't even remember what your original objection was.