What Type of Calvinist am I -discussion thread

[Arial]

This may be why you are confused by what I said earlier. I see the "opening of her heart" as grace enabling a person to respond "as if" they are spiritually alive not that they are in fact spiritually alive.

That is pure supposition. It is interpreting the scriptures in a way that fits what you already believe, also known as confirmation bias. It says plainly God opened her heart to respond to what Paul was saying. That that means she believed it is evidence by her being baptised. That means God opened her heart to respond/believe what Paul was saying. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[sawdust]

As an Elect Jewish Worshipper of God who was already Justified under the Old Covenant, why would God need to open her heart to hear Saint Paul; as she would already have been Regenerated?

Good point. I wasn't actually thinking of Lydia at the time but rather within the context of my conversation with Carbon. The problem I see with regeneration prior to faith is when you look at it from the opposite side of the street. If someone is going to reject God and His word then they must also be able to see the truth, at least to some degree. If they have to be regenerated in order to see, then they have effectively been saved. You now have the problem of God's promises that "you will never die".

I will give some more thought on the Lydia perspective.

 

[ReverendRV]

Good point. I wasn't actually thinking of Lydia at the time but rather within the context of my conversation with Carbon. The problem I see with regeneration prior to faith is when you look at it from the opposite side of the street. If someone is going to reject God and His word then they must also be able to see the truth, at least to some degree. If they have to be regenerated in order to see, then they have effectively been saved. You now have the problem of God's promises that "you will never die".

I will give some more thought on the Lydia perspective.

Thanks...

Civic always told me I had a good Point, and he would think about it; until he didn't

Calvinists don't have an issue with Regeneration meaning we're effectively Saved, because of the difference in the Meanings of Salvation and Justification; Sola Fide. We're Justified through Faith Alone, this is Salvation Proper...

We're Saved by the Crucifixion of Christ too, but it doesn't mean anyone is Justified through the Crucifixion Alone; if so, Universalism is true. So it's okay for Christians to think we're Saved by any Efficacious Grace; even by Prevenient Regeneration. Arminians believe they're Saved by the Prevenient Grace of Illumination; that's okay, isn't it?

As you say, Faith occurs by Grace; right? This means that Ephesians 2:8 is in the correct Logical Order; Faith is by Grace...

 

[sawdust]

So; what's your issue with Calvinism, if you believe Faith occurs by Grace?

That is pure supposition. It is interpreting the scriptures in a way that fits what you already believe, also known as confirmation bias. It says plainly God opened her heart to respond to what Paul was saying. That that means she believed it is evidence by her being baptised. That means God opened her heart to respond/believe what Paul was saying. Nothing more. Nothing less.

My issue with Calvinism is what Arial implies. It is God making her believe rather than her own response to the truth. Whether one is already saved or not, the grace of God is still needed to make the truth known. I simply don't see grace forcing belief on a person.

 

[ReverendRV]

My issue with Calvinism is what Arial implies. It is God making her believe rather than her own response to the truth. Whether one is already saved or not, the grace of God is still needed to make the truth known. I simply don't see grace forcing belief on a person.

I don't see her saying God makes anyone Believe

 

[sawdust]

I don't see her saying God makes anyone Believe

I did say "implies". Calvinist's seem dismiss man's volition as if it has no function until after they are saved.

 

[ReverendRV]

I did say "implies". Calvinist's seem dismiss man's volition as if it has no function until after they are saved.

No, no, no; Calvinists love Sola Fide. Martin Luther suffered for Justification through Faith Alone; you should have seen the CCAM Calvinists defend Justification through Faith here at the New Perspective on Paul Threads. It just seems we dismiss Man's Volition, because we're always defending Sola Gratia here...

Tell @Carbon you support the NPP, and you'll see how quick a Calvinist will defend Faith Alone. Might the devil want to keep the argument one-sided, to keep the fight alive? Keep one Camp defending Grace, the other Camp defending Faith; all the while both Camps believe we're Saved by/through both...

The issue will be, are you going to continue to push that Faith Logically precedes Grace? We have experience recognizing when people really want to say Faith is Prevenient, but these people are afraid to admit it...

 

[sawdust]

The issue will be, are you going to continue to push Faith Logically preceeding Grace? We have a lot of experience recognizing when people really want to say Faith is Prevenient, but those people are afraid to admit it...

What have I said that makes you think I am saying faith comes before grace?

 

[Arial]

My issue with Calvinism is what Arial implies. It is God making her believe rather than her own response to the truth. Whether one is already saved or not, the grace of God is still needed to make the truth known. I simply don't see grace forcing belief on a person.

I don't imply that God is making anyone believe. Or that grace forces belief on a person. That is simply the way you see it. But that is not the way that it is.

As long as a person insists that they can go their own way and do as they please, even so far as choosing to covenant with the Almighty; as long as they fail to recognize what holy means when applied to God; as long as they see grace as coming between their own freedom; as long as they do not believe just how estranged they are from their Creator; as long as they do not recognize that Jesus did more than hand them a key to unlock the chains that bind them so they could set themselves free; as long as they do not even see the chains or admit they are bound; that is how long a person will see grace to believe as force; that is how long they will insist that believing must come from them.

If grace only makes the truth known but does not also save, then His word is not accomplishes that for which He sent it out. It is not grace at all but simply a choice being offered, even though scripture tells us that it is by grace that we are saved. Through faith. And that is not of ourselves, but is a gift of God. Nothing about a gift offered. A gift given. Why would one consider a gift given a gift forced on them?

 

[CrowCross]

One problem I see is that God opens the heart, this is another way of saying regeneration. But you are saying it as two different things.


A woman named Lydia was listening; she was a seller of purple fabrics from the city of Thyatira, and a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. Acts 16:4.

Could be.

The point here is that God was at work...not Lydia.

 

[sawdust]

I don't imply that God is making anyone believe. Or that grace forces belief on a person. That is simply the way you see it. But that is not the way that it is.

I know it is not the way it is but when you then go on to say ...

they will insist that believing must come from them

Then where did their personal volition response to believe come from? Either God planted it in them, whether they wanted to believe or not, or they wanted to believe God and He honoured His word and saved the one believing in Him. (Jn.3:16)

 

[Carbon]

Then where did their personal volition response to believe come from? Either God planted it in them, whether they wanted to believe or not, or they wanted to believe God and He honoured His word and saved the one believing in Him. (Jn.3:16)

I hope you listen to Arial's answer.

 

[sawdust]

I hope you listen to Arial's answer.

I did listen Carbon and I hear her saying two different things.

Either the one believing is making the decision to acknowledge the revelation as truth or God is making the person believe the truth.

If accepting or rejecting Christ is not from one's own volition, then how can God judge fairly when all of us were made sinners by one man's decision? The reason Christ died was so we weren't condemned (eternally) on the basis of Adam's sin but on our own response to the word.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Go back and read what I wrote. My volitional response to believe is not faith. It is the word that produces faith within the believer not our will. (Rom.10:17)

It's either God saying "you will believe" or it is I saying "I believe" and if it wasn't for grace, I wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of being able to say "I believe".

 

[Carbon]

I did listen Carbon and I hear her saying two different things.

Either the one believing is making the decision to acknowledge the revelation as truth or God is making the person believe the truth.

If accepting or rejecting Christ is not from one's own volition, then how can God judge fairly when all of us were made sinners by one man's decision? The reason Christ died was so we weren't condemned (eternally) on the basis of Adam's sin but on our own response to the word.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Go back and read what I wrote. My volitional response to believe is not faith. It is the word that produces faith within the believer not our will. (Rom.10:17)

It's either God saying "you will believe" or it is I saying "I believe" and if it wasn't for grace, I wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of being able to say "I believe".

sawdust,
God does not make anyone believe. God changes the person, regenerates, and the new man in Christ chooses Christ of himself. He is happy to, Christ is his desire.

You don't get that?

 

[sawdust]

sawdust,
God does not make anyone believe. God changes the person, regenerates, and the new man in Christ chooses Christ of himself. He is happy to, Christ is his desire.

You don't get that?

The problem with regeneration before one responds to God, is it leaves the unbeliever with every excuse to say it was God's fault they don't believe.

I have a theory, the last thing Lucifer said to the Lord as he was being kicked from heaven is "It's your fault, you made me this way".

 

[Carbon]

The problem with regeneration before one responds to God, is it leaves the unbeliever with every excuse to say it was God's fault they don't believe.

The unbeliever really does not care.

I have a theory, the last thing Lucifer said to the Lord as he was being kicked from heaven is "It's your fault, you made me this way".

That's not in scripture.

 

[Arial]

I know it is not the way it is but when you then go on to say ...

Then where did their personal volition response to believe come from? Either God planted it in them, whether they wanted to believe or not, or they wanted to believe God and He honoured His word and saved the one believing in Him. (Jn.3:16)

What is the natural response to believing? And why do you say that personal volition must be involved apart from a work of God? You still have choosing to believe as necessary. How about you hear the gospel and when you hear it you believe it. Period. He did not plant something in anyone. He gave them a new birth, a spiritual birth----out of Adam and into Christ. It is said to be the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. Eph 1:17-22

 

[sawdust]

The unbeliever really does not care.

That's not in scripture.

How can he care? The unbeliever is oblivious to God.

I never said it was scripture. I made clear it was a theory.

 

[sawdust]

He gave them a new birth, a spiritual birth

Yes, after one believes. It is the one believing who God saves (Jn.3:16) He doesn't save you in order to believe.

 

[Arial]

The problem with regeneration before one responds to God, is it leaves the unbeliever with every excuse to say it was God's fault they don't believe.

People are fond of making excuses for the wrongs they do. It helps them to maintain their belief in their own goodness and attempts to avoid the consequences. They blame someone else. God declares He will have mercy on whomever He has mercy. Who are you to talk back to Him. He is obligated to give saving grace to no one. That He doesn't is not unfair, it is unequal, but not unfair. And there is one God and that is God.