What is the doctrine of Eternal Security?

[Mercy_Shown]

What I know is you are not dealing with the facts in evidence and every one of your posts to me have nothing to do with answering the op's inquiry. It looks like you're here solely to troll.

Dealing with the facts? What facts? You have offered opinions and now are down to ad hominem innuendo.

Your misuse of the definition of ad hominem is noted. If you have some pertinent argument I’d be glad to discuss it with you but this one has gone to far down the rabbit hole.

 

[Mr GLee]

The question at hand is, "What is the doctrine of eternal security?" (and, by implication, is it scriptural) I say, "The doctrine of eternal security ES is a fairly specific and limited statement in the arena of soteriology regarding the simple promise that if God has saved you, then He will finish the salvific work He began in the person He is saving. The doctrine of ES itself says nothing about humanity, sin, or anything else other than what was just stated. Calvinist soteriology is monergistic, meaning it is first and foremost about God and God as the causal agent in salvation from sin, death, and wrath. Therefore, any definition of ES that is couched in the sinner, the sinner's agency, or anything other than God, has departed from the doctrine. There are logically necessary implications of the doctrine, but those are beyond the specific of the doctrine itself. Yes, Christians (Christian humans) developed this doctrine, but it is firmly couched in the plain reading of scripture.

I would agree. God is not served by the hands a will of dying mankind . If he chooses he can use a unbeliever to preach the gospel.

If he our confidence began the good work of teaching, comforting and bringing to our memory the previous things taught He will finish it till or last breath.

Philippians 1: 6 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[Mr GLee]

"Already, but not yet". Saved from sin, but still under construction; not yet departed this temporal existence, and not yet the completed member of Christ's body —until we see Him as He is— that we will be.

We do see him who is invisible face to face though His knowledge as it is written, sola scriptura.

Face to face no different than faith the unseen eternal things of God to the same. faith Comparing the unseen spiritual understanding to the same.

Our Holy Father, our invisible head has no form. God is not a dying Jewish man .

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Roman 1: 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (His labor of Love )

 

[donadams]

Where does it say all truth revealed by God. in the scripture it is written some revealed truth by dying hands of mankind .I heard it through the legion of father grape vine ?

Define the word "dead" as in die according to the scripture.

Was it like what Peter the liar offered . . you shall not really die.

John 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Why did Peter lie?

Does the oral traditions of the dying fathers provide some sort of challenge using mortal and venial needed to shirt the commandment

The apostolic church does not require scripture to know the truth, the church was taught by Christ in person for three years
Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

 

[donadams]

What does the rest of the verse say????

The rest of the verse has no import here this refers to those being saved, the other refers to those who are lost, the requirements for each are not the same and you CANNOT use one part of a verse to delete a truth just cos it don’t fit your pet fundamentalist doctrine!

There are many more verses about baptism you want them all?

 

[Mr GLee]

The apostolic church does not require scripture to know the truth, the church was taught by Christ in person for three years
Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

No such thing as apostolic church No biblical sense

Word have meaning attached to them

Define the word "apostle" using the Bible as the evidence to you how you believe a apostolic church ?
It should be easy I would think. Just study to show yourself approved unto our heavenly Holy Father not seen . rightly dividing sola scriptura as it is writen

 

[CrowCross]

The rest of the verse has no import here this refers to those being saved, the other refers to those who are lost, the requirements for each are not the same and you CANNOT use one part of a verse to delete a truth just cos it don’t fit your pet fundamentalist doctrine!

There are many more verses about baptism you want them all?

The rest of the verse is very important. Why haven't you read it? Why did you only present 1/2 of the thought?

If you actually want to discuss it...cut and paste the entire verse....the portion where baptism is omitted.

 

[donadams]

As humans we are already dead in our sins and trespasses. You need to address that.

By the use of the word "brother" it indicates a fellow believer. If you see a fellow believer fall into drug use..that sin can physically kill them. It can be said to be a sin unto death. On the other hand we sin everyday...commit acts of unrighteousness that don't kill us.

Not talking about physical death but spiritual death

Jn 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Steal kill and destroy your soul!

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Faithful

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, (not faith alone) and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Overcometh! Not He who has been saved by faith alone!

There is no beatitude that says: blessed are they who accept Christ by faith alone, they are justified and have salvation and cannot do anything to lose it!

 

[donadams]

How do I know our "truth" is the truth? I compare it to scripture.

If your "truth" isn't in scripture...can I trust your truth?

Jn 8:32 the apostles have the truth!
Jn 16:13 apostles taught by the spirit, and by Christ in person for three yrs, they are to teach us! Matt 28:19

Jesus Christ and His church are one acts 9:4 eph 5:32 and the only means of salvation! Matt 28:19


Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
Jn 17:22 / rom 2:10 / 1 pet 1:7 Christ shares His glory with His saints!
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
Must hear church Matt 18:18
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

 

[donadams]

How is believing Jesus died for my sins and I don't have to "work them off" is perverting the gospel?

Is your motto....Jesus equals salvation or Jesus plus your works equal salvation?

Answer me this...how much "works" do we need to do?

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Do good until the end Matt 24:13

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrowis the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Not I’m saved already!

Matt 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Josheb]

Dealing with the facts? What facts? You have offered opinions and now are down to ad hominem innuendo.

Your misuse of the definition of ad hominem is noted. If you have some pertinent argument I’d be glad to discuss it with you but this one has gone to far down the rabbit hole.

Thank you for your time. Not seeing anything op-relevant in the post 121, I won't be trading posts with you further in this thread.

 

[donadams]

Where in the world do you get the notion that the saved don't have to do anything? That isn't what I've been saying. In fact, I insist, that if one doesn't do, he is not saved.

Listen carefully: Nobody becomes born again by their own doing. THAT is the work of God alone. THAT is grace.
Read Romans 8 and Ephesians 2 and John 1, just for starters...

I’ve heard it from many “faith alone” self-proclaimed preachers

“Accept Christ as your person lord and savior”! There is NOTHING more you need to do! Bully Graham, etc.

Your doctrine: faith alone makes you born again.

Christ’s doctrine: born again by water and the spirit.

The grace of justification or born again or baptismal regeneration is administered by the apostolic church!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Grace administered by the apostles
2 cor 8:19

Thks

Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

eph 2:8 does not refer to you’re salvation it’s already past tense when Paul wrote it so it refers something that has already occurred, the redemption accomplished by Christ apart from our involvement. “Not of yourselves”

Christian faith includes baptism Jn 3:5 by water and the spirit and not faith alone. Mk 16:16 acts 2:38 acts 8:26 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21

And charity 1 cor 13:2 and 1 cor 13/13

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

[donadams]

"Already, but not yet". Saved from sin, but still under construction; not yet departed this temporal existence, and not yet the completed member of Christ's body —until we see Him as He is— that we will be.

Then we are in Christ by grace and we must abide in him! Jn 15:1-5

 

[donadams]

No such thing as apostolic church No biblical sense

Word have meaning attached to them

Define the word "apostle" using the Bible as the evidence to you how you believe a apostolic church ?
It should be easy I would think. Just study to show yourself approved unto our heavenly Holy Father not seen . rightly dividing sola scriptura as it is writen

Matt 16:18-19 Jn 20:21-23 Eph 2:20

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 Jn 15:1 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

We must hear the church! Matt 18:17

 

[Josheb]

I would agree. God is not served by the hands a will of dying mankind. If he chooses he can use a unbeliever to preach the gospel.

Let me clarify that so there's no confusion reading what I posted. God can use anything. He can even have a non-believer preach the gospel (I would venture to say it happens every year in comparative religion classes at universities around the world). We have record in the NT of people not associated with the apostles preaching the gospel and people preaching the gospel for profit. In both cases the preaching was affirmed, not criticized.

What cannot happen is the preaching of the gospel by sinful human flesh being causal.

More importantly, all of the above is off topic. The preaching of the gospel has nothing to do with ES. ES is a condition of the saints, not non-saints. It has nothing to do with non-believers preaching anything.

If he our confidence began the good work of teaching, comforting and bringing to our memory the previous things taught He will finish it till or last breath.

YES!!!

ES all about God and His work and, specifically, His work in/of salvation. It has nothing to do with whether or not a person is healthy enough to hear the gospel, attentive enough to listen to the gospel, intelligent enough to understand what they heard, or free/bound to respond or not. None of that is ES. Neither does it have anything to do with how well a saint hears, listens, understands, chooses, or acts. All of those conditions will have an effect on the quality of one's walk with Christ on this side of the grave, but they have nothing to do with ES. ES is about God. If God has saved a person, then He will finish what He started and that individual's security in Christ is eternal.

Philippians 1: 6 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Yep.

Right straight out of God's word (although I might have included a little of the surrounding text to establish context ).

 

[donadams]

The rest of the verse is very important. Why haven't you read it? Why did you only present 1/2 of the thought?

If you actually want to discuss it...cut and paste the entire verse....the portion where baptism is omitted.

Cos only half refers to those being saved!

Why do you negate the word of God?

Mark 16:16 The requirements for those who are being saved cannot be undone by the requirements for those not being saved! He who believes and is baptized is still required for salvation? Heaven and earth may pass away but my words shall not pass away!

It is Reasonable that if one rejects faith why bother mentioning the second requirement?

So don’t negate the word of God or the eternal words of Jesus by trying to delete one verse with another.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Nowhere does scripture say salvation is by “faith alone”! Rom 13:11
Or that we died with Christ by “faith alone”! Or that we put in Christ by “faith alone”! Or that we are in the church by “faith alone”!

 

[donadams]

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!









“Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Where does it say we are sealed by faith alone?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Ministered by the apostolic church!

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

The early Catholic Church fathers say faith and baptism!

Eph 5:24 the church is subject to Christ and has always taught and practiced “baptismal regeneration” and never “faith alone” if anyone says we are justified by “faith alone” let them be anathema! (condemned)

Matt 28:19 disciples by faith and baptism
Not called to faith alone Phil 1:29

Three things faith, hope and charity!
Not faith alone! Greatest not faith, if salvation depended on faith alone faith would be the greatest! 1 cor 13:13

 

[makesends]

Then we are in Christ by grace and we must abide in him! Jn 15:1-5

Of course we must! I don't recall anyone saying different. That doesn't imply that God will not complete what he began in us.

 

[CrowCross]

Steal kill and destroy your soul!

Your soul is already dead.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

 

[makesends]

Your doctrine: faith alone makes you born again.

Christ’s doctrine: born again by water and the spirit.

The grace of justification or born again or baptismal regeneration is administered by the apostolic church!

You can't see how you've added to Scripture? Ephesians 2: "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Just for a real obvious start, in all the verses you quoted, there is no mention of an apostolic church. You have extrapolated what it does say, with the notion that the authority of the apostles continues to YOUR church, the RCC, and not the THE church, the Body of Christ universal.

Remember, that while Ephesians 2:8 has to fit all the rest of the Bible, the rest of the Bible has to fit Ephesians 2:8 also.