What is the doctrine of Eternal Security?

[CrowCross]

Mark 16:16 The requirements for those who are being saved cannot be undone by the requirements for those not being saved! He who believes and is baptized is still required for salvation? Heaven and earth may pass away but my words shall not pass away!

Once again, baptism is NOT mentioned in the rest of the thought. You leave out that portion when you try to convince people baptism is a requirement.

 

[CrowCross]

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!









“Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Where does it say we are sealed by faith alone?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Ministered by the apostolic church!

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

The early Catholic Church fathers say faith and baptism!

Eph 5:24 the church is subject to Christ and has always taught and practiced “baptismal regeneration” and never “faith alone” if anyone says we are justified by “faith alone” let them be anathema! (condemned)

Matt 28:19 disciples by faith and baptism
Not called to faith alone Phil 1:29

Three things faith, hope and charity!
Not faith alone! Greatest not faith, if salvation depended on faith alone faith would be the greatest! 1 cor 13:13

Do you know baptism isn't always a reference to water baptism?

Luke 3:16 is an example....John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire

Acts 11:16 tells us...And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

 

[makesends]

Josheb said:
The question at hand is, "What is the doctrine of eternal security?" (and, by implication, is it scriptural) I say, "The doctrine of eternal security ES is a fairly specific and limited statement in the arena of soteriology regarding the simple promise that if God has saved you, then He will finish the salvific work He began in the person He is saving. The doctrine of ES itself says nothing about humanity, sin, or anything else other than what was just stated. Calvinist soteriology is monergistic, meaning it is first and foremost about God and God as the causal agent in salvation from sin, death, and wrath. Therefore, any definition of ES that is couched in the sinner, the sinner's agency, or anything other than God, has departed from the doctrine. There are logically necessary implications of the doctrine, but those are beyond the specific of the doctrine itself. Yes, Christians (Christian humans) developed this doctrine, but it is firmly couched in the plain reading of scripture.

I would agree. God is not served by the hands a will of dying mankind . If he chooses he can use a unbeliever to preach the gospel.

If he our confidence began the good work of teaching, comforting and bringing to our memory the previous things taught He will finish it till or last breath.

Philippians 1: 6 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Eternal Security can be taught from several directions, but the first and (I believe) most important being the mere fact of Creation, Election, and the Mercy of God. The rest of it is implied from the name (or the meaning of the name) 'God': His power, ability, purpose, constancy, and all the things that could be included in the term, "God's will". God will accomplish whatever he set out to do.

 

[Mr GLee]

Matt 16:18-19 Jn 20:21-23 Eph 2:20

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 Jn 15:1 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

We must hear the church! Matt 18:17

Yes, the church must hear the invisible head our invisible Holy Father. His voice is inspired from heaven not Rome through different color smoke .The smoke signal . Just lie the American Indians

What the fumes indicate is simple: black smoke means there has been no decision on a new pontiff. But if the "fumata bianca," or white smoke, flows out of the chimney, then the world knows there is a new Bishop of Rome. The color has to be just right, or millions of onlookers will be fooled.

I would think Satan is the king of lies signs to wonder or marvel after

The unbelieving Jewish fathers (Pharisees with Sadducees) like the (Catholic with Eastern Orthodox fathera) . Rather than following Christ through his living word sola scriptura. They chased after the oral traditions (smoke) of dying mankind same as you.

You must seek inspiration rising up from Rome .

James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

True inspirator come down like rain It does not rise for earth sent by the Pope

Deuteronomy32 :12 `Give ear, O heavens, and I speak; And thou dost hear, O earth, sayings of my mouth! Drop as rain doth My doctrine; Flow as dew doth My sayings; As storms on the tender grass, And as showers on the herb,

Matthew 18:18Young's Literal Translation `Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.

Nothing in that law about loosed from Rome coming from dead Holy Fathers, Holy See, the Vicar of Christ. the chief of apostle called Patron saints.

Come on you can do it today. Define the word "apostle" using the Bible to find His understanding or is it you do not trust the living words of a Holy God not seen the invisible head?

Where is the invisible head in the Catholic denomination ??

 

[Josheb]

Then we are in Christ by grace and we must abide in him! Jn 15:1-5

Of course we must! I don't recall anyone saying different. That doesn't imply that God will not complete what he began in us.

In fact, the fact we are saved by grace is evidence in support of eternal security! It is salvation by grace through faith and not of ourselves. Yes, we must abide in him, but if God is responsible for His salvation, then the person He saves will abide in His Son.

The use of John 15:1-5 is a good prooftext (as opposed to inappropriate proof-texting) but those few verses cannot be made to contradict all else that the passage says or all else that the Bible as a whole says on the matter. We can select only the verses we like about having to abide and say God's grace is weak or not guaranteed to be effective in the end. It's curious an appeal to abiding in him was made but verses 6-10 were left out. The fact is there is nothing in those 10 verses that can be read to contradict Jesus telling his Father he lost none of those given to him, or the aforementioned point of being saved by grace, or the assurance of 1 Corinthians 3's declaration a person building on the foundation of Christ will be saved, even if what he builds on that foundation is later lost - all of it. It's also worth noting John 15 was spoken to Jews in pre-Calvary conditions when the Law was the measure of abiding.

Galatians 3:10-13
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us...

Christians do not abide by the Law we abide in Christ, and we do so by grace, not works of the flesh. The anointing we received in Christ abides in us (1 Jn. 2:27). His anointing teaches us to abide in him, and abiding in him we have confidence that when he appears we will not shame him (1 Jn. 2:28).

2 John 1:9
Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

God said it. Not Calvinists. If you don't abide in him then you don't have God. Anyone who does not have God was not saved in the first place. God doesn't save a person by grace and then abandon His own grace. It's as I said before: God does not fail and neither does God make worthless the price He paid - the life of His own Son. The blood of Christ is never worthless. It can serve more than one purpose, though. It both saves and condemns. It saves those in him, those justified and sanctified by his blood and not condemned by it. Alternatively, those who do not call upon the name of Christ stand condemned already - they have always been condemned, and condemned for that reason (John 3:18).

Romans 8:1-8
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


John 15:1-10 cannot be pitted against any of the above. The minute we say salvation is by grace through faith and it is NOT of ourselves - it's a gift of God's - we must conclude the matter of eternal security is in God's hands, not our own. Salvation is by grace through faith, not salvation by grace plus works. Works are the purpose of salvation, not the means of securing it.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

His workmanship. Not our own workmanship. It is God who works in us, the saints, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. The doctrine of eternal security teaches we can believe the promise of God to that effect: He will finish what He started, and nothing can prevent The Almighty from doing so.

 

[Mr GLee]

Effects of faith & baptism!

I would ask a effect of whose faith as a labor of love ? I would think God pouring out this Holy Spirit life in jeopardy of his own Spirit (as if it was water) (H20) on dying flesh mankind?

Getting wet does not exempt a Catholic from the eternal doctrine of suffering praying to a Queen Mother of heaven. dying, suffering dying mankind . Limo, wonder, suffer, Purgatory wonder. suffer.

Limbo, The never-ending story

Eternal life eternal according to Philippians 2:13 begins the moment God works in a believer soul to both reveal his will and empower dying mankind them to finish it the glory of our invisible Head Christ. Not eathly of the devil

The kind of food as our daily bread or hidden manna The food that empowers us as that the disciples knew not of at first, food for soul

Not the kind of food that goes in one literal mouth into the Tommy, comes out as draught .Jesu said it cannot enter one heart and soul.it must be buried .

John 4:33-35 King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat Jesus saith unto them,
My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work

The kind of food spoken of in Job food more than necessary for these bodies of death . . soul food, eternal life

Same principle 2 Philippians 2:13 God workings in dying mankind

Job 23 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me: Because I was not cut off before the darkness, neither hath he covered the darkness from my face.

​

 

[Mr GLee]

John 15:1-10 cannot be pitted against any of the above. The minute we say salvation is by grace through faith and it is NOT of ourselves - it's a gift of God's - we must conclude the matter of eternal security is in God's hands, not our own. Salvation is by grace through faith, not salvation by grace plus works. Works are the purpose of salvation, not the means of securing it

I would offer

Yes. the work of Christ's faith as a labor of love, not of our own selves (no faith .) He gives us little faith (just enough to please him ) calling us of "little faith" He is the storeroom. His barns are full. Peter prayed . . . . . Holy Father increase the faith the power of your love We must decrease

Luke 17:4-6 King James Version And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

 

[donadams]

ES is a condition of the saints!

Non-sense!

1 Corinthians 6:10
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Even if they have “faith alone”!

 

[donadams]

Of course we must! I don't recall anyone saying different. That doesn't imply that God will not complete what he began in us.

God faithful but we still have free will and can reject Christ, the faith, and the grace of baptism

 

[donadams]

Your soul is already dead.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

Eph 2:1 quickend or brought to life of grace
Eph 2:5 quickend
Jn 10:10 life! And more abundantly
Jn 1:16-17 grace / life
Jn 14:6 Christ is our life

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are inChrist Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Thks

 

[donadams]

Your soul is already dead.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

Born in original sin apart from God and devoid of grace until we are born again by faith and baptism united by Christ to God and the saints in grace!

 

[donadams]

You can't see how you've added to Scripture? Ephesians 2: "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Just for a real obvious start, in all the verses you quoted, there is no mention of an apostolic church. You have extrapolated what it does say, with the notion that the authority of the apostles continues to YOUR church, the RCC, and not the THE church, the Body of Christ universal.

Remember, that while Ephesians 2:8 has to fit all the rest of the Bible, the rest of the Bible has to fit Ephesians 2:8 also.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

What does this mean?

 

[donadams]

You can't see how you've added to Scripture? Ephesians 2: "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Just for a real obvious start, in all the verses you quoted, there is no mention of an apostolic church. You have extrapolated what it does say, with the notion that the authority of the apostles continues to YOUR church, the RCC, and not the THE church, the Body of Christ universal.

Remember, that while Ephesians 2:8 has to fit all the rest of the Bible, the rest of the Bible has to fit Ephesians 2:8 also.

Apostolic church? Matt 16:18-19 Peter is an apostle
Matt 18:18 apostles
Jn 20:21 apostles
Eph 2:20 apostles

 

[donadams]

You can't see how you've added to Scripture? Ephesians 2: "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Just for a real obvious start, in all the verses you quoted, there is no mention of an apostolic church. You have extrapolated what it does say, with the notion that the authority of the apostles continues to YOUR church, the RCC, and not the THE church, the Body of Christ universal.

Remember, that while Ephesians 2:8 has to fit all the rest of the Bible, the rest of the Bible has to fit Ephesians 2:8 also.

Redemption :
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.

Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Jn 15:4 abide in Christ Matt 3:16 believes (present tense) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

Glorification:

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

eph 2:8 does not refer to you’re salvation it’s already past tense when Paul wrote it so it refers something that has already occurred, the redemption accomplished by Christ apart from our involvement. “Not of yourselves”

Christian faith includes baptism Jn 3:5 by water and the spirit and not faith alone. Mk 16:16 acts 2:38 acts 8:26 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21

And charity 1 cor 13:2 and 1 cor 13/13

 

[donadams]

Once again, baptism is NOT mentioned in the rest of the thought. You leave out that portion when you try to convince people baptism is a requirement.

What logic is it to demand the 2nd requirement when they refused the 1st requirement?

Faith and baptism

To reject faith they are lost!
To reject baptism they are lost!

If both are required the rejection of only one disqualified them!

Thanks

 

[CrowCross]

Born in original sin apart from God and devoid of grace until we are born again by faith and baptism united by Christ to God and the saints in grace!

Baptism not required.

John 3;16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Note:
The verse doesn't say....For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him and is baptized in water shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[CrowCross]

What logic is it to demand the 2nd requirement when they refused the 1st requirement?

Faith and baptism

To reject faith they are lost!
To reject baptism they are lost!

If both are required the rejection of only one disqualified them!

Thanks

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

As pointed out..no mention of baptism in second part.

From Got Questions...
Mark 16:16 does not say a believer must be baptized. The verse states a fact about baptized believers (they will be saved), but it says exactly nothing about believers who have not been baptized.
The one specific condition required for salvation is stated in the second part of Mark 16:16: “Whoever does not believe will be condemned.” In essence, Jesus has given both the positive condition of belief (whoever believes will be saved) and the negative condition of unbelief (whoever does not believe will be condemned). Therefore, we can say with absolute certainty that belief is the requirement for salvation.

 

[donadams]

Do you know baptism isn't always a reference to water baptism?

Luke 3:16 is an example....John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire

Acts 11:16 tells us...And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

That is the Christian sacrament of baptism “water and the spirit”
Jn 3:5 ez 36:25-27

John baptized with water only for repentance

 

[CrowCross]

To reject faith they are lost!
To reject baptism they are lost!

What happens if you accept the faith...Jesus...in a foxhole on a battlefield...then die in battle prior to being baptized???

 

[donadams]

Yes, the church must hear the invisible head our invisible Holy Father. His voice is inspired from heaven not Rome through different color smoke .The smoke signal . Just lie the American Indians

What the fumes indicate is simple: black smoke means there has been no decision on a new pontiff. But if the "fumata bianca," or white smoke, flows out of the chimney, then the world knows there is a new Bishop of Rome. The color has to be just right, or millions of onlookers will be fooled.

I would think Satan is the king of lies signs to wonder or marvel after

The unbelieving Jewish fathers (Pharisees with Sadducees) like the (Catholic with Eastern Orthodox fathera) . Rather than following Christ through his living word sola scriptura. They chased after the oral traditions (smoke) of dying mankind same as you.

You must seek inspiration rising up from Rome .

James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

True inspirator come down like rain It does not rise for earth sent by the Pope

Deuteronomy32 :12 `Give ear, O heavens, and I speak; And thou dost hear, O earth, sayings of my mouth! Drop as rain doth My doctrine; Flow as dew doth My sayings; As storms on the tender grass, And as showers on the herb,

Matthew 18:18Young's Literal Translation `Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.

Nothing in that law about loosed from Rome coming from dead Holy Fathers, Holy See, the Vicar of Christ. the chief of apostle called Patron saints.

Come on you can do it today. Define the word "apostle" using the Bible to find His understanding or is it you do not trust the living words of a Holy God not seen the invisible head?

Where is the invisible head in the Catholic denomination ??

If you follow Christ you must believe his word! Lk 10:16