Evangelism and the Law

[John Bauer]

At another discussion forum, a person asked the following question: “Jesus spoke of not one jot falling from the law until ‘all is accomplished.’ How does that relate to Christ’s final words, ‘It is finished’?”

And I answered, “‘All is accomplished’ is comprehensive, spanning the whole mission of Christ, including his life, death, resurrection, exaltation, and the consummation of the kingdom. ‘It is finished’ is the pivotal moment within that mission: the completion of the atoning work that secures everything else.”

To this, he replied,

Expand on this. What does this mean for our use of the law and the Ten Commandments in our evangelism? Especially if, after being saved, we no longer have to observe the law in the way the Jews had to.

From A (“it is finished”) to B (“until all is accomplished”)

In Matthew 5:18, when Jesus says that not the smallest letter or even stroke of a letter will pass from the law “until all is accomplished,” he is speaking about the abiding authority and teleological fulfillment of the Mosaic economy within redemptive history. The law remains in force until its goal (telos) is reached in him.

In John 19:30, “It is finished” refers specifically to the completion of his atoning work—his obedience unto death, the climactic act that satisfies divine justice and secures the covenant promises. So, the cross does not cancel the law, it is the climactic fulfillment of the law in its covenantal and typological dimensions. Christ fulfills the law’s precepts (active obedience), its penalties (passive obedience), and its types and shadows (sacrificial system, priesthood, temple).

Thus, “all is accomplished” reaches its decisive turning point at “it is finished,” but it extends beyond the cross to resurrection, exaltation, and the eschatological consummation. The cross secures; the resurrection vindicates; the ascension enthrones; the parousia consummates.

Evangelism and the Ten Commandments

The Mosaic law as a covenantal administration is therefore fulfilled and no longer binding upon believers as a covenant of works. We are not under law but under grace. The believer does not relate to God through Moses but through union with the risen Christ.

However, that doesn’t mean the moral law has evaporated. The ceremonial law is fulfilled and abrogated. The judicial law has expired as Israel’s national code. But the moral law, reflecting God’s character, is abiding in substance. The Ten Commandments, as a summary of the moral law, continues to reveal God’s righteousness.

But its covenantal function has shifted. It no longer condemns those in Christ (Rom 8:1). It now functions normatively, not covenantally. And this distinction is critical for evangelism. If Christ has fulfilled the law’s condemning power for his people, then we don’t preach the law as something we must keep—Christ kept it. Nor do we preach the law as a perpetual threat hanging over the justified—we preach Christ crucified and risen.

Yet the law still serves a pedagogical use. For unbelievers, it exposes sin and shuts the mouth; it reveals not merely behavioral failure but covenantal rebellion. In light of my original point, evangelism shouldn’t devolve into a mechanical recitation of the Ten Commandments, as if awareness of infractions automatically generates repentance. That would treat the law as a technique. Rather, the law functions diagnostically. It reveals idolatry. It exposes autonomy. It strips self-righteousness. The gospel is not “you broke the rules.” The gospel is, “God has acted in Christ to reconcile rebels to himself—and you’re a rebel.”

Jesus does not abolish the moral substance of the law. That persists for as long as God is God. Rather, Jesus embodies and fulfills the law. Our evangelism should then reflect that structure. The law reveals God’s holiness and man’s rebellion. Christ fulfills the law and bears its curse. The Spirit unites sinners to Christ, granting repentance and faith.

Conclusion

The shift after “it is finished” is not that the law becomes irrelevant, but that it’s no longer the covenantal administrator of the relationship between God and his people. Christ is—and always has been, a point to which the Mosaic covenant always pointed.

To answer your question, then: We use the law insofar as it exposes sin and drives to Christ. We do not use it as a covenantal framework to place people back under Sinai, nor do we reduce the gospel to an escape from penalty. The law prepares; it is Christ who saves. The law diagnoses; it is Christ who heals. The law commands; it is Christ who accomplishes.

 

[Soyeong]

In Matthew 5:18, when Jesus says that not the smallest letter or even stroke of a letter will pass from the law “until all is accomplished,” he is speaking about the abiding authority and teleological fulfillment of the Mosaic economy within redemptive history. The law remains in force until its goal (telos) is reached in him.

The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by experiencing being in His likeness through embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Law of Moses is to graciously teach us how to have an intimate relationship with God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.

In John 19:30, “It is finished” refers specifically to the completion of his atoning work—his obedience unto death, the climactic act that satisfies divine justice and secures the covenant promises. So, the cross does not cancel the law, it is the climactic fulfillment of the law in its covenantal and typological dimensions. Christ fulfills the law’s precepts (active obedience), its penalties (passive obedience), and its types and shadows (sacrificial system, priesthood, temple).

If someone retroactively inserts the cross back into Matthew 5:17-19 in spite of that chapter making no allusion to the cross, then they are interpreting it as if Christ had no intention for his audience to understand what he meant when he said that he came to fulfill the law. However, Christ did not invent the concept of fulfilling the law, so we should seek to understand what it meant in the context of Judaism before Christ said that he came to fulfill it, which would be in the way that his audience would have understood him. Christ said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the last part of it, so you should not interpret fulfilling the law as meaning essentially the same thing as relaxing it or as relaxing even the least part of it. Rather, "to fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known by the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so after Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law he then proceeded to fulfill it throughout the rest of the chapter by correcting what the people had heard being said and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. According to Galatians 5:14, loving out neighbor fulfills the entire law, so again in refers to correctly obeying it, moreover, it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something unique that only Jesus did through the cross. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, yet you do not consistently interpret that as causing the Law of Christ to be no longer binding.

The Mosaic law as a covenantal administration is therefore fulfilled and no longer binding upon believers as a covenant of works. We are not under law but under grace. The believer does not relate to God through Moses but through union with the risen Christ.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which means that the Mosaic Covenant is a covenant of grace and law. In Jeremiah 31, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so it is also a covenant of grace and law along with all of God's other covenants. This is why Romans 6:15 says that those who are under grace are not permitted to transgress the Mosaic Law. In Romans 6:14, Paul descried the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion of us, which does not described the Mosaic Law, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. It is contradictory to think that the believer relates to God through God's Word made flesh instead of through following his example of embodying God's Word.

However, that doesn’t mean the moral law has evaporated. The ceremonial law is fulfilled and abrogated. The judicial law has expired as Israel’s national code. But the moral law, reflecting God’s character, is abiding in substance. The Ten Commandments, as a summary of the moral law, continues to reveal God’s righteousness.

The Bible never lists which laws are part of the moral, ceremonial, or judicial law and never even refers to those as being categories of law. If a group of people were to create lists of which laws they through were part of the moral, ceremonial, and judicial law, then they would end up with a wide variety of lists and none of those people should interpret the authors of the Bible as if they had in mind a set of laws that they just created, especially when there is no way to establish that they considered those to be categories of law.

God's character traits are eternal, so any instructions that God has given for how to know Him through embodying His character traits are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of His righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:142). Morality is based on God's character traits, all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. For example, holiness and justice are character traits of God character traits, so holiness and justice are moral issues, and in 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy as God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, so something being a ceremonial or judicial law does not mean that it is not also a moral law.

But its covenantal function has shifted. It no longer condemns those in Christ (Rom 8:1). It now functions normatively, not covenantally. And this distinction is critical for evangelism. If Christ has fulfilled the law’s condemning power for his people, then we don’t preach the law as something we must keep—Christ kept it. Nor do we preach the law as a perpetual threat hanging over the justified—we preach Christ crucified and risen.

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so verses like Romans 8:1 that refer to those who are in Christ are only referring to those who are following his example of walking in obedience to the Law of Moses. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possessions who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20).

Yet the law still serves a pedagogical use. For unbelievers, it exposes sin and shuts the mouth; it reveals not merely behavioral failure but covenantal rebellion. In light of my original point, evangelism shouldn’t devolve into a mechanical recitation of the Ten Commandments, as if awareness of infractions automatically generates repentance. That would treat the law as a technique. Rather, the law functions diagnostically. It reveals idolatry. It exposes autonomy. It strips self-righteousness. The gospel is not “you broke the rules.” The gospel is, “God has acted in Christ to reconcile rebels to himself—and you’re a rebel.”

Do you think that we are permitted to do what the Law of Moses reveals to be sin? If so, then what is the point of it exposing sin and how could it anyone's mouth?

 

[JesusFan]

Thought that he was referring to the Mosaic law was in force and binding while under the Old Covenant, but that when the new one is ushered in by his death and resurrection

 

[Soyeong]

Thought that he was referring to the Mosaic law was in force and binding while under the Old Covenant, but that when the new one is ushered in by his death and resurrection

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20). The reason why Jesus established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching, it was not in order to nullify what he accomplished through the cross, and it was not so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

 

[Oarknot]

It's pretty easy to see a couple basic points.

First, every Word of God applies to everyone, per Jesus in Matt.4:4, Luke 4:4 and Deut. 14:1

Paul even tells us the law is for sinners, 1 Tim. 1:9 and admits to being a sinner, the present tense "I am" the chief of sinners in 1 Tim. 1:15

Yes the laws are and remain against the evil in everyone, believer or unbeliever. It matters not. The laws apply and prove us all sinners well beyond any reasonable doubt. Romans 3:19 convicts the whole world and every mouth. The verdict was in before any of us were even born. That verdict is GUILTY.

There is no dodging the conclusion. Just tell the truth. It's much easier to simply be honest and not be forced into denying The Word of God. Don't deny. Be honest. Then the law has given you the reward of HONESTY.

Get it? It's a GIFT

 

[atpollard]

(“until all is accomplished”) and (“it is finished”)

Interesting question about the Law. My thoughts were immediately drawn back to the OT example that was meant to educate mankind until the fulfillment in Christ. I imagined a man standing in line with his lamb waiting to enter the Temple and offer his prescribed sacrifice. He is a man of faith, knowledgeable of the Laws given through Moses. He is keenly aware of both his obligation to keep them, and his failure to do so perfectly. That is why he is standing there with a year old lamb in his arms. This is no empty ritual for him, his heart is heavy with grief and he longs to obey and offer the sacrifice that is both commanded by and acceptable to God.

It is his turn and the High Priest accepts his lamb. The man watches as the lamb dies and the blood pours out ... the price of his sin. The fires consume the fat and organs as prescribed in the Law. The offering has been made and the words spoken ... he stands "clean" before God [because God has declared it so]. Experience has shown him that it will not last, but right now, he is right before God.

Is his thought really "Phew, no more Law hanging over my head. Caio, ten commandments!"

**********

Stepping back to the present. We have a better High Priest offering not a lamb, but the "Lamb of God" to obtain a far more valuable and permanent "cleansing".

Are our thoughts really "Phew, no more Law hanging over my head. Caio, ten commandments!"

 

[Bruiser]

At another discussion forum, a person asked the following question: “Jesus spoke of not one jot falling from the law until ‘all is accomplished.’ How does that relate to Christ’s final words, ‘It is finished’?”

And I answered, “‘All is accomplished’ is comprehensive, spanning the whole mission of Christ, including his life, death, resurrection, exaltation, and the consummation of the kingdom. ‘It is finished’ is the pivotal moment within that mission: the completion of the atoning work that secures everything else.”

To this, he replied,

Expand on this. What does this mean for our use of the law and the Ten Commandments in our evangelism? Especially if, after being saved, we no longer have to observe the law in the way the Jews had to.

From A (“it is finished”) to B (“until all is accomplished”)

In Matthew 5:18, when Jesus says that not the smallest letter or even stroke of a letter will pass from the law “until all is accomplished,” he is speaking about the abiding authority and teleological fulfillment of the Mosaic economy within redemptive history. The law remains in force until its goal (telos) is reached in him.

In John 19:30, “It is finished” refers specifically to the completion of his atoning work—his obedience unto death, the climactic act that satisfies divine justice and secures the covenant promises. So, the cross does not cancel the law, it is the climactic fulfillment of the law in its covenantal and typological dimensions. Christ fulfills the law’s precepts (active obedience), its penalties (passive obedience), and its types and shadows (sacrificial system, priesthood, temple).

Thus, “all is accomplished” reaches its decisive turning point at “it is finished,” but it extends beyond the cross to resurrection, exaltation, and the eschatological consummation. The cross secures; the resurrection vindicates; the ascension enthrones; the parousia consummates.

Evangelism and the Ten Commandments

The Mosaic law as a covenantal administration is therefore fulfilled and no longer binding upon believers as a covenant of works. We are not under law but under grace. The believer does not relate to God through Moses but through union with the risen Christ.

However, that doesn’t mean the moral law has evaporated. The ceremonial law is fulfilled and abrogated. The judicial law has expired as Israel’s national code. But the moral law, reflecting God’s character, is abiding in substance. The Ten Commandments, as a summary of the moral law, continues to reveal God’s righteousness.

But its covenantal function has shifted. It no longer condemns those in Christ (Rom 8:1). It now functions normatively, not covenantally. And this distinction is critical for evangelism. If Christ has fulfilled the law’s condemning power for his people, then we don’t preach the law as something we must keep—Christ kept it. Nor do we preach the law as a perpetual threat hanging over the justified—we preach Christ crucified and risen.

Yet the law still serves a pedagogical use. For unbelievers, it exposes sin and shuts the mouth; it reveals not merely behavioral failure but covenantal rebellion. In light of my original point, evangelism shouldn’t devolve into a mechanical recitation of the Ten Commandments, as if awareness of infractions automatically generates repentance. That would treat the law as a technique. Rather, the law functions diagnostically. It reveals idolatry. It exposes autonomy. It strips self-righteousness. The gospel is not “you broke the rules.” The gospel is, “God has acted in Christ to reconcile rebels to himself—and you’re a rebel.”

Jesus does not abolish the moral substance of the law. That persists for as long as God is God. Rather, Jesus embodies and fulfills the law. Our evangelism should then reflect that structure. The law reveals God’s holiness and man’s rebellion. Christ fulfills the law and bears its curse. The Spirit unites sinners to Christ, granting repentance and faith.

Conclusion

The shift after “it is finished” is not that the law becomes irrelevant, but that it’s no longer the covenantal administrator of the relationship between God and his people. Christ is—and always has been, a point to which the Mosaic covenant always pointed.

To answer your question, then: We use the law insofar as it exposes sin and drives to Christ. We do not use it as a covenantal framework to place people back under Sinai, nor do we reduce the gospel to an escape from penalty. The law prepares; it is Christ who saves. The law diagnoses; it is Christ who heals. The law commands; it is Christ who accomplishes.

If I were answering him, I would say, "It is Finished" speaks of Christ Keeping the Old Covenant; finally someone actually did it. The Law of Moses Passes Away for the Believer, who now Keeps the Royal Law of Christ instead...

 

[Bruiser]

If I were answering him, I would say, "It is Finished" speaks of Christ Keeping the Old Covenant; finally someone actually did it. The Law of Moses Passes Away for the Believer, who now Keeps the Royal Law of Christ instead...

When I think of the Law and the Gospel, I think of 'Ray Comfort's The Way of the Master' Evangelism Method...

The Royal Law ~ by ReverendRV * November 8

James 2:8 KJV; If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.

There was a time when Jesus commissioned several disciples and he was instructing them in the way of his ministry. During this time an Expert spoke up and asked Jesus how to inherit Eternal Life, this is what was said; “Behold, a Lawyer stood up to put Jesus to the test. ‘Teacher, what shall I do to inherit Eternal Life?’ Jesus said, ‘What is written in the Law? How does it say?’ The Lawyer answered, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your Heart and with all your Soul and with all your Strength and with all your Mind, and your neighbor as yourself.’ Jesus said ‘You have answered correctly; do it, and you will live.’ The lawyer desired to justify himself, ‘Who is my neighbor?"’ ~ Saint James taught about Loving your Neighbor, about not showing partiality; which the Expert had in spades! ~ How could you ever keep this Royal Law with all your Heart?

Jesus answered the Lawyer’s question with an example of a foreigner who helped an injured man on a road. A Priest and a Levite wouldn’t stop to help the man. The Lawyer knew that if this ever occurred, Jesus would be right; because those two wouldn’t touch anything unclean. Have you ever helped someone when they were in dire straits? Most people can answer Yes to this; but none can say that they kept the Law of God by doing this! You object, “Saint Paul said Loving your Neighbor as yourself fulfills the Law!” Yes he did; but only a Royal Prince from Heaven can fulfill this Royal Law of God. A Pauper only has a Commoners Law that was given to Sinners; the Ten Commandments. These ten Laws were given to show us that we are guilty as Sin, and that we’re outlaws who will be locked away in a devil’s Hell for all Eternity. ~ The Baptist Theologian John Gill said this of the Royal Law; ‘Which is the Law of love to Man, without distinction of rich and poor, high and low, bond and free; and is so called, because it’s the Law of the King of kings, it is the Law of Christ, who is King of Saints; and because it is a principal Law, the chief of Laws; as Love to God is the sum of the first and great commandment in the Law, and may be called the King of Laws; so Love to the Neighbor is the second and next unto it, and may very well bear the name of the Queen of Laws, and has Royalty in it; and indeed this last is said to be the fulfilling of the Law, and it is also submitted to, and obeyed by such who are made kings and priests to God; and to be done in a Royal manner, with a Princely Spirit, Willingly, and with all readiness:’

What we need is to be made Kings and Priests of God in order to be able to fulfill the Queen of Laws and live! There’s only one way to receive this Coronation and it’s by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ the King of Kings; without Works lest we boast. His shed blood pays our Sin debt for us, but his Resurrection from the dead grants us our Royal title. Repent from Sin, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and you will be Forgiven. Gain your commission from him and you’ll be Saved from your Sins; you will be spiritually Born Again with a Prince’s birthright! Jesus will grant it that you rule and reign with him in his Kingdom forever in Eternity. You’re now able to keep the Royal Law of God since you’re under the jurisdiction of Heaven as a citizen who can exercise your new found rights. ~ Give up your life as a dying Pauper and exchange it for the Life of an everlasting Prince; an Heir of the one true King. Read the Bible and find your Kingdom Agenda…

Revelations 1:6 KJV; To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever.
Amen.

 

[Bruiser]

The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by experiencing being in His likeness through embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Law of Moses is to graciously teach us how to have an intimate relationship with God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.


If someone retroactively inserts the cross back into Matthew 5:17-19 in spite of that chapter making no allusion to the cross, then they are interpreting it as if Christ had no intention for his audience to understand what he meant when he said that he came to fulfill the law. However, Christ did not invent the concept of fulfilling the law, so we should seek to understand what it meant in the context of Judaism before Christ said that he came to fulfill it, which would be in the way that his audience would have understood him. Christ said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the last part of it, so you should not interpret fulfilling the law as meaning essentially the same thing as relaxing it or as relaxing even the least part of it. Rather, "to fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known by the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so after Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law he then proceeded to fulfill it throughout the rest of the chapter by correcting what the people had heard being said and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. According to Galatians 5:14, loving out neighbor fulfills the entire law, so again in refers to correctly obeying it, moreover, it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something unique that only Jesus did through the cross. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, yet you do not consistently interpret that as causing the Law of Christ to be no longer binding.


In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which means that the Mosaic Covenant is a covenant of grace and law. In Jeremiah 31, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so it is also a covenant of grace and law along with all of God's other covenants. This is why Romans 6:15 says that those who are under grace are not permitted to transgress the Mosaic Law. In Romans 6:14, Paul descried the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion of us, which does not described the Mosaic Law, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. It is contradictory to think that the believer relates to God through God's Word made flesh instead of through following his example of embodying God's Word.


The Bible never lists which laws are part of the moral, ceremonial, or judicial law and never even refers to those as being categories of law. If a group of people were to create lists of which laws they through were part of the moral, ceremonial, and judicial law, then they would end up with a wide variety of lists and none of those people should interpret the authors of the Bible as if they had in mind a set of laws that they just created, especially when there is no way to establish that they considered those to be categories of law.

God's character traits are eternal, so any instructions that God has given for how to know Him through embodying His character traits are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of His righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:142). Morality is based on God's character traits, all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. For example, holiness and justice are character traits of God character traits, so holiness and justice are moral issues, and in 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy as God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, so something being a ceremonial or judicial law does not mean that it is not also a moral law.


In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so verses like Romans 8:1 that refer to those who are in Christ are only referring to those who are following his example of walking in obedience to the Law of Moses. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possessions who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20).


Do you think that we are permitted to do what the Law of Moses reveals to be sin? If so, then what is the point of it exposing sin and how could it anyone's mouth?

Yada, Yada, Yada ~ by ReverendRV * December 28

Proverbs 28:13 (NLT) People who conceal their sins will not prosper, but if they confess and turn from them, they will receive mercy.

‘Seinfeld’ was a very popular TV Sitcom; with a famous episode about our title. In the episode, the girlfriend was telling a story to one of the main characters. It went something like, “We went on a date, had a nice dinner, yada, yada, yada; then we had breakfast”. This set a trend for the whole episode to have jokes exploring what yada, yada, yada means. Obviously this is a way to conceal something embarrassing that the Teller of the Story might not want to say, or to conceal something they might not want the listener to know. They started making jokes about all the kinds of ways that this phrase can be used; you know, Yada, Yada, Yada. I don’t need to explain it more because you have probably already seen the episode. ~ Can you read between the Yada-Lines and Know?

I found something interesting as I was looking at a Bible Concordance. I was looking something else up, and just under it was the word “Know”. I couldn’t help but notice the Hebrew word for this is ‘Yada’. It immediately made me think of this episode. I wondered if there was a connection, or if this was where the phrase “Yada, Yada, Yada” came from. The similarity seems to close to not be the case. Basically people use the phrase ‘Yada, Yada, Yada’ to say, “Well; you know…”, or, “I don’t need to say it because you already know”. In my research, here is what I found out about Yada. This form of Know/Yada occurs in the Bible 947 times. It can be used in several different ways such as, to ‘Know’ by Seeing with your own eyes, to Know by Perceiving, to have Knowledge and Wisdom. You can Yada someone because they’re famous, you can Yada someone if they’re related to you, or Yada someone intimately. There are all sorts of ways you can Know/Yada someone or something…

Have you ever said something like, ‘I went to the store, and yada, yada, yada; I look great in these new jeans!’ The “yada, yada, yada” implies you don’t want me to know how you got the jeans. Or, “I snuck out of the house last night, yada, yada, yada; my parents don’t know a thing”. It conceals what you did, to keep this from your parents. We use the phrase because we think that if we don’t vocalize what we do, we won’t have to be accountable for it; ‘but God already Yada’s ALL about it’. The Psalmist said, “Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all. You can’t hide what you did from God, He knows the Evil things you did. God gave us instructions to live by, which are his Ten Commandments. We know deep down in our Heart that our Sin is wrong…

For God so loved the world, he gave his only Son, so that we will not perish but have everlasting Life. God knew we couldn’t keep the Covenant he made with Adam; that’s why he sent his Son to do it. God walked this earth in the form of the Man Jesus Christ, and Kept God’s Covenants with Adam AND Moses. Jesus paid the penalty for Sin by shedding his blood and dying on a Cross, and by arising from his Grave. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith, not by Works lest we should boast as if we did it. ~ Isn’t it strange that when we want to boast, we don’t conceal it with Yada, Yada, Yadas?

Acts 2:23-24 NASB this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its
power

 

[Soyeong]

Yada, Yada, Yada ~ by ReverendRV * December 28

Proverbs 28:13 (NLT) People who conceal their sins will not prosper, but if they confess and turn from them, they will receive mercy.

‘Seinfeld’ was a very popular TV Sitcom; with a famous episode about our title. In the episode, the girlfriend was telling a story to one of the main characters. It went something like, “We went on a date, had a nice dinner, yada, yada, yada; then we had breakfast”. This set a trend for the whole episode to have jokes exploring what yada, yada, yada means. Obviously this is a way to conceal something embarrassing that the Teller of the Story might not want to say, or to conceal something they might not want the listener to know. They started making jokes about all the kinds of ways that this phrase can be used; you know, Yada, Yada, Yada. I don’t need to explain it more because you have probably already seen the episode. ~ Can you read between the Yada-Lines and Know?

I found something interesting as I was looking at a Bible Concordance. I was looking something else up, and just under it was the word “Know”. I couldn’t help but notice the Hebrew word for this is ‘Yada’. It immediately made me think of this episode. I wondered if there was a connection, or if this was where the phrase “Yada, Yada, Yada” came from. The similarity seems to close to not be the case. Basically people use the phrase ‘Yada, Yada, Yada’ to say, “Well; you know…”, or, “I don’t need to say it because you already know”. In my research, here is what I found out about Yada. This form of Know/Yada occurs in the Bible 947 times. It can be used in several different ways such as, to ‘Know’ by Seeing with your own eyes, to Know by Perceiving, to have Knowledge and Wisdom. You can Yada someone because they’re famous, you can Yada someone if they’re related to you, or Yada someone intimately. There are all sorts of ways you can Know/Yada someone or something…

Have you ever said something like, ‘I went to the store, and yada, yada, yada; I look great in these new jeans!’ The “yada, yada, yada” implies you don’t want me to know how you got the jeans. Or, “I snuck out of the house last night, yada, yada, yada; my parents don’t know a thing”. It conceals what you did, to keep this from your parents. We use the phrase because we think that if we don’t vocalize what we do, we won’t have to be accountable for it; ‘but God already Yada’s ALL about it’. The Psalmist said, “Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all. You can’t hide what you did from God, He knows the Evil things you did. God gave us instructions to live by, which are his Ten Commandments. We know deep down in our Heart that our Sin is wrong…

For God so loved the world, he gave his only Son, so that we will not perish but have everlasting Life. God knew we couldn’t keep the Covenant he made with Adam; that’s why he sent his Son to do it. God walked this earth in the form of the Man Jesus Christ, and Kept God’s Covenants with Adam AND Moses. Jesus paid the penalty for Sin by shedding his blood and dying on a Cross, and by arising from his Grave. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith, not by Works lest we should boast as if we did it. ~ Isn’t it strange that when we want to boast, we don’t conceal it with Yada, Yada, Yadas?

Acts 2:23-24 NASB this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its
power

In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of Moses is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that we couldn't keep. Moreover, there are many examples of people who did keep it, such as with those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works in obedience to the Law of Moses is part of the content of His gift of salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem, us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20).

The reason why God gave the Law of Moses was not so that we could have something to boast about.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

At another discussion forum, a person asked the following question: “Jesus spoke of not one jot falling from the law until ‘all is accomplished.’ How does that relate to Christ’s final words, ‘It is finished’?”

And I answered, “‘All is accomplished’ is comprehensive, spanning the whole mission of Christ, including his life, death, resurrection, exaltation, and the consummation of the kingdom. ‘It is finished’ is the pivotal moment within that mission: the completion of the atoning work that secures everything else.”

Very good, John - and quite true.

 

[Josheb]

At another discussion forum, a person asked the following question: “Jesus spoke of not one jot falling from the law until ‘all is accomplished.’ How does that relate to Christ’s final words, ‘It is finished’?”

And I answered, “‘All is accomplished’ is comprehensive, spanning the whole mission of Christ, including his life, death, resurrection, exaltation, and the consummation of the kingdom. ‘It is finished’ is the pivotal moment within that mission: the completion of the atoning work that secures everything else.”...................................

That's pretty good. Succinct and correct.

Whenever the subject of the Law comes up I like to observe or inquire about the purposes of the Law (as stated in the NT). For example, the Law is reported to be a witness about Jesus. The Law itself evangelistic! The Law, therefore, is applicable for that purpose - or was up to and during Jesus' incarnation. Now that he's come and gone and we're not living in covenant Israel that witness is no longer needed. It might still serve as a tool when evangelizing the modern-day Jew who still observes the Law. Another purpose of the Law was to show us our sin. As the op astutely puts it, "...it exposes sin and shuts the mouth; it reveals not merely behavioral failure but covenantal rebellion....... We use the law insofar as it exposes sin and drives to Christ." For that purpose, any law will do because no one is true to their own law. Every unregenerate sinner has a bunch of "rules" governing how s/he should behave, and the honest ones will acknowledge they do not live it perfectly. If they were to judge themselves by their own metrics they'd fail. Hence the label (sin means missing the target). Then I like to observe "principle over letter" because the simple, undeniable fact is that the epistolary writers were constantly quoting and citing and indirectly referencing the Mosaic code and applying it to both Jewish and Gentile converts to Christ! This doesn't come up often in evangelism unless the person being evangelized has some knowledge of the Law but it can still be useful, especially when evangelizing those whose complaint against Christianity is the accusation we're all legalistic. I like to use the example of the grain-threshing oxen not being muzzled (Dt. 25:4). That verse is employed multiple times in the NT but not one of those occasions has anything to do with oxen or grain threshing. Lastly, there is point that all the Law is summarized in love, our obligation to love God and love others. Way too many people think of the Law onerously. Its liberty has to be observed because sinners will neither face their condition nor solve it on their own. Most don't even try (as our recent atheist visitor @Greg proved). None of us can drive down the road racing as fast as we can ignoring the lane markers, ignoring all the "rules of the road" and expect to reach our destination without injuring ourselves and/or others. Heaven forbid we'd try to drive through the Jersey wall and head to our destination driving into oncoming traffic! Worded appropriately for the circumstance and person being evangelized, these are all accessible concepts useful for proving the power and efficacy of the gospel. Which brings me to my last point.....

The one being evangelized who broaches the Law is most likely employing a red herring with deceit. That may sound harsh, but we all know intellectual assent does not save. No amount of information-only evangelism saves because salvation is by grace, not information (and definitely not by works of the Law). It is always incumbent upon the evangelist to be attentive to the guidance of the Holy Spirit when preaching the gospel because only the Holy Spirit knows what the sinner needs to hear to lay aside himself/herself. The unregenerate sinner will not likely be aware s/he is being worked on from within. The evangelistic conversation serves as a distraction, they're not even aware of it and may not be for many years after his or her conversion! It's challenging to have a conversation with God while having one with an outsider. I believe that is why we are directed to....

Colossians 4:5-6
Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

We may not understand the Spirit's guidance but, if followed, it can disarm the pending convert, eradicate the red herring (and all the other defensive shenanigans in their arsenal), and prepare the heart. Our own knowledge and modus operandi can be the chief obstacle to success. Blessedly, the Holy Spirit can overcome even the most zealous of evangelists and reap success .







There's a Counterpoint Series book titled, "Five Views on Law and Gospel," that is very good. It's more about the Christian's understanding of the Law's relevance to our post-conversion life but much of the information is useful in evangelism.
.

 

[Soyeong]

That's pretty good. Succinct and correct.

Whenever the subject of the Law comes up I like to observe or inquire about the purposes of the Law (as stated in the NT).

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted to God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are worker of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the purpose of the Law of Moses is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). Sin is what is contrary to walking in God's way, which is why sin is the transgression of the Law of Moses.

For example, the Law is reported to be a witness about Jesus. The Law itself evangelistic! The Law, therefore, is applicable for that purpose - or was up to and during Jesus' incarnation. Now that he's come and gone and we're not living in covenant Israel that witness is no longer needed. It might still serve as a tool when evangelizing the modern-day Jew who still observes the Law.

God's Word teaches us how to bear witness about God's Word made flesh because he is the embodiment of it and there is nothing about his incarnation that means that it is no longer needed to bear witness about him and should now bear false witness against him instead.

Another purpose of the Law was to show us our sin. As the op astutely puts it, "...it exposes sin and shuts the mouth; it reveals not merely behavioral failure but covenantal rebellion....... We use the law insofar as it exposes sin and drives to Christ."

Likewise, there is nothing about the incarnation of Jesus that means that it is no longer needed for us to refrain from doing what the Law of Moses shows us is sin. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21), so the Law of Moses does not just show us our sin, but God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of it is also the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation.

For that purpose, any law will do because no one is true to their own law. Every unregenerate sinner has a bunch of "rules" governing how s/he should behave, and the honest ones will acknowledge they do not live it perfectly. If they were to judge themselves by their own metrics they'd fail. Hence the label (sin means missing the target).

Repentance does not change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience.

Our target is to know God by walking in His way and sin is what is contrary to walking in God's way, which is why sin is missing the target.

Then I like to observe "principle over letter" because the simple, undeniable fact is that the epistolary writers were constantly quoting and citing and indirectly referencing the Mosaic code and applying it to both Jewish and Gentile converts to Christ! This doesn't come up often in evangelism unless the person being evangelized has some knowledge of the Law but it can still be useful, especially when evangelizing those whose complaint against Christianity is the accusation we're all legalistic. I like to use the example of the grain-threshing oxen not being muzzled (Dt. 25:4). That verse is employed multiple times in the NT but not one of those occasions has anything to do with oxen or grain threshing.

God's way is the way to know God through embodying His character traits and His character traits are the principles that the Law of Moses was given in order to teach us how to embody. If we correctly understand a character trait, then it will lead us to take actions to embody that trait in accordance with the Law of Moses even in situation that the Law of Moses does not specifically address, but correctly understanding a character trait will never lead us away from following that instructions that God gave for how to embody it. So there is absolutely a character trait that the command in Deuteronomy 25:4 was given to teach us, but that does not mean that we do not also need to obey that command.

Lastly, there is point that all the Law is summarized in love, our obligation to love God and love others. Way too many people think of the Law onerously. Its liberty has to be observed because sinners will neither face their condition nor solve it on their own. Most don't even try (as our recent atheist visitor @Greg proved). None of us can drive down the road racing as fast as we can ignoring the lane markers, ignoring all the "rules of the road" and expect to reach our destination without injuring ourselves and/or others. Heaven forbid we'd try to drive through the Jersey wall and head to our destination driving into oncoming traffic! Worded appropriately for the circumstance and person being evangelized, these are all accessible concepts useful for proving the power and efficacy of the gospel. Which brings me to my last point.....

Everyone who considers the Psalms to be Scripture must share the view of obeying the Law of Moses that is expressed in these verses:

Psalm 19:7-11
The law of the Lord is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the testimony of the Lord is sure,
making wise the simple;
8 the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
9 the fear of the Lord is clean,
enduring forever;
the rules of the Lord are true,
and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.
11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.

The one being evangelized who broaches the Law is most likely employing a red herring with deceit. That may sound harsh, but we all know intellectual assent does not save. No amount of information-only evangelism saves because salvation is by grace, not information (and definitely not by works of the Law). It is always incumbent upon the evangelist to be attentive to the guidance of the Holy Spirit when preaching the gospel because only the Holy Spirit knows what the sinner needs to hear to lay aside himself/herself. The unregenerate sinner will not likely be aware s/he is being worked on from within. The evangelistic conversation serves as a distraction, they're not even aware of it and may not be for many years after his or her conversion! It's challenging to have a conversation with God while having one with an outsider. I believe that is why we are directed to....

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, so calling for repentance from our disobedience to the Law of Moses is a central part of preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace.

 

[Josheb]

...so the purpose of the Law of Moses is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way......

Unless you meant to say, "know about God," instead of "know God," that is incorrect.

If someone read every post I've ever written in every forum in which I have ever posted (at least fifteen years' worth of daily posts) they would know something about me but not know me personally. That is one of the problems with the statement I just posted. Another is the fact claiming to know God or knowing about God merits nothing. Congregations around the world are filled with seemingly people, people claiming obedience to God's laws (even those laws of the Law) but don't know God. Jesus made this abundantly clear in Matthew 7. Jesus' appeal to the self-purported prophets' and miracle performers' lawlessness does not occur in a vacuum. It is explicitly qualified by his comment "I do not know you." Later revelation explains this in a manner that could not have been understood prior to Calvary and Pentecost.

Galatians 4:7-11
7Because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba! Father!” 7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. 8However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods. 9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles, to which you want to be enslaved all over again? 10You meticulously observe days and months and seasons and years. 11I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

What is important is knowing God and being known by God! These people did not know God, but now they did. Despite knowing God and being known by God they were still falling back to rely lawful practices = the observance of special days. Some readers may protest and say Paul was referring to pagan holy days, but the principle applies to both Jewish holy days and pagan ones and Paul is, in fact, writing to an audience of both Jewish and Gentile converts. It is in this very epistle that Paul states....

Galatians 3:28-29
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

He states this after reporting on his confrontation of Peter's double-standard hypocrisy treated Jewish convert one way and Gentile converts another. Jeremiah prophetically spoke of knowing God during the days of Judah's judgment and the promise of a coming Messiah.

Jeremiah 9:23-24
This is what the LORD says: “Let no wise man boast of his wisdom, nor let the mighty man boast of his might, nor a rich man boast of his riches; but let the one who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises mercy, justice, and righteousness on the earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the LORD.

and again,

Jeremiah 31:33-34
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

The new covenant was inaugurated at the last supper, and chapters 8 through 10 of Hebrews explains how the prophetic promise of Jeremiah 31 was fulfilled in Christ. The author quotes Jeremiah in Heb. 10:16.

Hebrews 9:27-10:4
And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

The Law reminded everyone of their sin and foretold of the perfect blemish free sacrifice that was revealed in the last times.




Adherence to the Law makes people knowledgeable of God, about God. That is not the same as knowing God personally. That comes from having the Spirit of God regenerating and then indwelling and then continuing to work in the individual. Knowing God is up close and personal.

 

[Josheb]

....there is nothing about the incarnation of Jesus that means that [the Law] is no longer needed for us to refrain from doing what the Law of Moses shows us is sin.

First of all, both the op and I have explicitly affirmed the Law as an identifier of sin. Second, million of people have been brought to God through His resurrected Son without any knowledge of the Mosaic code. The Law is efficacious, not necessary. The Mosaic code is simply an expression of the law written on the human hear when God made humanity. People sinned prior to the Law being given. People to whom the Law was not given sinned, sinned apart from the Law, and sinned in complete ignorance to the Law. They nonetheless knew better.

Romans 2:12
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

As far as the Law of Moses goes, there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set those in Christ free from the law of sin and of death. We mind the Law in principle, not its letter. The simple fact is the Jews had the Law and while many of them knew about God, none of them knew God unless He met them up close and personal.

 

[Josheb]

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted to God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are worker of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the purpose of the Law of Moses is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). Sin is what is contrary to walking in God's way, which is why sin is the transgression of the Law of Moses.


God's Word teaches us how to bear witness about God's Word made flesh because he is the embodiment of it and there is nothing about his incarnation that means that it is no longer needed to bear witness about him and should now bear false witness against him instead.


Likewise, there is nothing about the incarnation of Jesus that means that it is no longer needed for us to refrain from doing what the Law of Moses shows us is sin. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21), so the Law of Moses does not just show us our sin, but God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of it is also the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation.


Repentance does not change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience.

Our target is to know God by walking in His way and sin is what is contrary to walking in God's way, which is why sin is missing the target.


God's way is the way to know God through embodying His character traits and His character traits are the principles that the Law of Moses was given in order to teach us how to embody. If we correctly understand a character trait, then it will lead us to take actions to embody that trait in accordance with the Law of Moses even in situation that the Law of Moses does not specifically address, but correctly understanding a character trait will never lead us away from following that instructions that God gave for how to embody it. So there is absolutely a character trait that the command in Deuteronomy 25:4 was given to teach us, but that does not mean that we do not also need to obey that command.


Everyone who considers the Psalms to be Scripture must share the view of obeying the Law of Moses that is expressed in these verses:

Psalm 19:7-11
The law of the Lord is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the testimony of the Lord is sure,
making wise the simple;
8 the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
9 the fear of the Lord is clean,
enduring forever;
the rules of the Lord are true,
and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.
11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.


In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, so calling for repentance from our disobedience to the Law of Moses is a central part of preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace.

Can you identify the specific point of this op that is intended for discussion? If so, then please do so without further delay.

 

[Arial]

Sin is what is contrary to walking in God's way, which is why sin is the transgression of the Law of Moses.

Sin is walking contrary to the law of God. The Covenant Law that he gave Moses reflected fully who he is so that we know what sin is. But the Covenant Law also consisted of a legal code (like the laws of a nation or state) that was unique to them---not universal. There was a penal code attached to disobeying that law that became obsolete along with the OT covenant when Jesus became mediator of a New Covenant that has no legal code. That does not mean we are out from under the law of God. It means that those things that were unique to Israel in worship which includes dietary and feast/festival days, are no longer in effect. They have fulfilled their full purpose in Christ's perfect obedience, in purchasing a people for God through his death and bringing them into the New Covenant. Grace, through faith, not of works. The old covenant Law was works.

 

[Josheb]

Sin is what is contrary to walking in God's way, which is why sin is the transgression of the Law of Moses.

No.

Sin existed prior to the giving of the Law. The Law is not the only measure of sin. You may be inclined to appeal to 1 John 3:4's "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness," but that verse is not the only verse in the Bible that defines sin. There are at least three or four others, and they don't mention the Law of Moses. The word "only" does not exist in 1 John 3:4 but too many Christians wrongly commit the sin of onlyism (adding the word "only" to God''s word where it does not exist). The belief only the Law defines sin is a mistake. Believing 1 John 3:4 is the only verse defining si and defining sin only by the Law of Moses fails to address the ontological aspect of sin. It addresses only the behavioral aspect of sin.

We sin because we are sinners and we are sinners because we sin.

Sin is something we are, not merely something we do.

Strict obedience to the Law of Moses does not make a person know God. It helps them know about God. Big difference.

 

[Soyeong]

Unless you meant to say, "know about God," instead of "know God," that is incorrect.

In Exodus 33:13, it does not say that Mose wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to know about Him, but to know Him. The Hebrew word "yada" used in that verse refers to intimate relationships and knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived and gave brith to Cain. God's way is the way to know (yada) and be known by Him and Jesus by experiencing embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. So when we embody God's righteousness through being a doer of the Mosaic Law we are gaining experience knowledge of God. The Mosaic Law being God's instructions for how to have an intimate relationship with Him is in accordance with the Mosaic Covenant often being described as being a marriage between God and Israel, such as with God saying that he was her husband (Jeremiah 31:32).

Jeremiah 9:23-24
This is what the LORD says: “Let no wise man boast of his wisdom, nor let the mighty man boast of his might, nor a rich man boast of his riches; but let the one who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises mercy, justice, and righteousness on the earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the LORD.

and again,

Jeremiah 31:33-34
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

The new covenant was inaugurated at the last supper, and chapters 8 through 10 of Hebrews explains how the prophetic promise of Jeremiah 31 was fulfilled in Christ. The author quotes Jeremiah in Heb. 10:16.

In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know (yada) God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law while in 9:24, those who know God know that He delights in being a doer of steadfast love, righteousness, and justice in all of the earth, so the way to know God is by delighting in being a doer of God's character traits in obedience to the Torah.

This is also the way to know the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law. This is also why those who say that they know Jesus but don't obey his commandments are liars (1 John 2:6) and why those who continue to be doers of sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law have neither seen nor known him (1 John 3:4-6).

This is also in accordance with Jeremiah 31:33-34 connecting God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts with everyone knowing God.

If someone read every post I've ever written in every forum in which I have ever posted (at least fifteen years' worth of daily posts) they would know something about me but not know me personally. That is one of the problems with the statement I just posted. Another is the fact claiming to know God or knowing about God merits nothing. Congregations around the world are filled with seemingly people, people claiming obedience to God's laws (even those laws of the Law) but don't know God. Jesus made this abundantly clear in Matthew 7. Jesus' appeal to the self-purported prophets' and miracle performers' lawlessness does not occur in a vacuum. It is explicitly qualified by his comment "I do not know you." Later revelation explains this in a manner that could not have been understood prior to Calvary and Pentecost.

Galatians 4:7-11
7Because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba! Father!” 7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. 8However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods. 9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles, to which you want to be enslaved all over again? 10You meticulously observe days and months and seasons and years. 11I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

What is important is knowing God and being known by God! These people did not know God, but now they did. Despite knowing God and being known by God they were still falling back to rely lawful practices = the observance of special days. Some readers may protest and say Paul was referring to pagan holy days, but the principle applies to both Jewish holy days and pagan ones and Paul is, in fact, writing to an audience of both Jewish and Gentile converts. It is in this very epistle that Paul states....

Galatians 3:28-29
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

He states this after reporting on his confrontation of Peter's double-standard hypocrisy treated Jewish convert one way and Gentile converts another. Jeremiah prophetically spoke of knowing God during the days of Judah's judgment and the promise of a coming Messiah.

Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them because the Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to know and be known by him and it does not work to interpret Galatians 4:7-11 as Paul criticizing them for returning to following God's instructions for how to know and be known by Him. Rather the fact that they formerly did not know God and were slaves to those who by nature are not gods mean that they were former pagans who were not formerly obeying the Mosaic Law and that Paul could not have been criticizing the for returning to it. The fact that they had come to know and be known by God means that they had become doers of the Mosaic Law in accordance with hearing and believing the Gospel, but were returning to celebrating pagan holy days. You have no grounds for claiming that the same principle applies to God's holy days. If you agree that Paul was a servant of God, then you should be opposed to you interpreting him as speaking against obeying what God has commanded.

Hebrews 9:27-10:4
And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

The Law reminded everyone of their sin and foretold of the perfect blemish free sacrifice that was revealed in the last times.




Adherence to the Law makes people knowledgeable of God, about God. That is not the same as knowing God personally. That comes from having the Spirit of God regenerating and then indwelling and then continuing to work in the individual. Knowing God is up close and personal.

If you agree that the Mosaic Law reveals what sin is and that we should refrain from sin, then you should agree that we should obey it. Being a doer of the Mosaic Law is the way to know God, not the way to know about Him.

 

[Soyeong]

First of all, both the op and I have explicitly affirmed the Law as an identifier of sin. Second, million of people have been brought to God through His resurrected Son without any knowledge of the Mosaic code. The Law is efficacious, not necessary. The Mosaic code is simply an expression of the law written on the human hear when God made humanity. People sinned prior to the Law being given. People to whom the Law was not given sinned, sinned apart from the Law, and sinned in complete ignorance to the Law. They nonetheless knew better.

God's way is the way to embody God's character traits while sin is what is contrary to God's character traits, such as with unrighteousness being sin, and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law because it was given in order to teach us how to know and be known by God through embodying His character traits.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20), which means that there is no one who has been brought to God through His resurrected Son without knowledge of how to walk in His way. People were able to sin prior to the giving of the Mosaic Law by acting in a way that is contrary to God's character traits before they had been given instructions to refrain from doing that, but the way to sin by doing what is contrary to God's character traits has existed for as long as God's character traits have been eternal regardless of when God gave instructions to refrain from doing that.

Romans 2:12
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

As far as the Law of Moses goes, there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set those in Christ free from the law of sin and of death. We mind the Law in principle, not its letter. The simple fact is the Jews had the Law and while many of them knew about God, none of them knew God unless He met them up close and personal.

In 1 Joh 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so verses that refer to those who are in Christ are only referring to those who are following his example of walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law, such as Romans 8:1. In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death, so the Mosaic Law is not the law of sin and death, but rather they lead us in opposite directions. The principles of the Mosaic Law are the character traits of God that it was given in order to teach us how to embody and we can't follow its principles instead of God's instructions for teaching us how to follow those principles. Many Jews know and are known by God.

Can you identify the specific point of this op that is intended for discussion? If so, then please do so without further delay.

The OP spoke about the goal of the Mosaic Law, so I quoted those verses to show that its goal is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life.

No.

Sin existed prior to the giving of the Law. The Law is not the only measure of sin. You may be inclined to appeal to 1 John 3:4's "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness," but that verse is not the only verse in the Bible that defines sin. There are at least three or four others, and they don't mention the Law of Moses. The word "only" does not exist in 1 John 3:4 but too many Christians wrongly commit the sin of onlyism (adding the word "only" to God''s word where it does not exist). The belief only the Law defines sin is a mistake. Believing 1 John 3:4 is the only verse defining si and defining sin only by the Law of Moses fails to address the ontological aspect of sin. It addresses only the behavioral aspect of sin.

We sin because we are sinners and we are sinners because we sin.

Sin is something we are, not merely something we do.

Strict obedience to the Law of Moses does not make a person know God. It helps them know about God. Big difference.

All of the definitions of sin in the Bible are in accordance with what is contrary to God's character traits/contrary to the Law of Moses. Please quote where the Bible states that sin is something that we are.