Keeping Our Christian Doctrines Consistent with the Doctrine of God

[Arial]

Allowance could be a level.

Did God want makind to fall in the garden or did He allow it?

He intended that they would. There was a bigger purpose than just redeeming humanity and it had t do with his glory. I don't want to get into that here as it would change the subject. I discuss it here:

• 
  Bible Questions and Study

Redemption: The Big Picture​

 

[Josheb]

I see "will" in this as meaning God doesn't decree that all people are to be saved.

Could that be re-worded to say, "God wills (or decrees) some will be saved and some will not"?

I see will here as God "not wanting" all people to perish.

God does not want all to perish and/but He wills (or decrees) some will be saved and some will not?

 

[Josheb]

I would use a bit stronger wording and say God demands all to repent. It is not an option. You do or your face his wrath. And since no one can, it requires his grace to give them to Jesus through regeneration and faith. And since we know he can save to the utmost anyone and even everyone, and we also know that he doesn't----it can only be that he wills who to save. What glory that is to him!

Yep.

 

[Josheb]

Would it be love towards his covenant people if he didn't destroy the wicked like he promises he will?

No. BUT..... it is love toward His covenant people that he lets the ungodly live their one life before facing judgment (Heb. 9:27). He could have eradicated the entire human race the second Adam ate the forbidden kiwi. No time to pick fig leaves for you, Adam. You're done. Imastartover. That is certainly within His purview. Folks get upset when I say, "Every human after that was rubbish and God can take out the trash anytime He likes. If He waits a day or a thousand years what is that to you? You get to live out the rest of your life until He decides to end it!"

What? I'm not trash. What are you talking about? Why you gotta be so harsh. You need Jesus.

Thanks. By the grace of God I already got Jesus. I know without him I am just a big abyss full of sin and God is utterly, perfectly righteous (or is it righteously perfect? ) When a person faces their sin, exactly how sinful they truly are.....

.....they either cry or lose their mind.


God never loses His mind. Even in the face of an entire humanity riddled with rot and death.

Within Christianity, and among those who claim Christianity but deny the Trinity, there exists conflicting doctrines. Not the least among them is the Pelagian, semi-Pelagian, and Arminianism that came against the Doctrines of Grace (TULIP) of Calvinism/Reformed theology.

Makes me wonder if folks like Flowers or Olsen (or Pelagius, or Wesley) have ever come truly face to face with their sin in all its magnitude.

 

[Arial]

Makes me wonder if folks like Flowers or Olsen (or Pelagius, or Wesley) have ever come truly face to face with their sin in all its magnitude.

Or a countless (thousands upon thousands) number of other Christians. It is too easy, and easier than looking the beast of ourselves in the mirror, to be grateful they are forgiven and still consider them "mistakes". I have noticed that when I take a "small" sin before God, and unkind remark, a hostile attitude, a "slip up" back into my pre-Christ days, and I sit down in communion with God to ask forgiveness, here is what happens if I happen to have the courage to actually face the truth; that "little" sin becomes ginormous, because I was bought with precious blood and at a cost I cannot fathom, and I had the nerve to treat that so lightly.

 

[makesends]

Makes me wonder if folks like Flowers or Olsen (or Pelagius, or Wesley) have ever come truly face to face with their sin in all its magnitude.

Not that you don't have a point, but I don't think that any of us truly come face to face with our sin with the accuracy with which God sees it.

 

[fastfredy0]

Would it be love towards his covenant people if he didn't destroy the wicked like he promises he will?

I don't see how the elect are loved (favored) by the act of destroying the wicked. When God says He will destroy the wicked, the wicked are what He is referring to and the wicked are definitely not being loved (favored) by sending them to hell for eternity. God is a holy love and he is also a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29, which says, "for our God is a consuming fire").

 

[makesends]

I don't see how the elect are loved (favored) by the act of destroying the wicked. When God says He will destroy the wicked, the wicked are what He is referring to and the wicked are definitely not being loved (favored) by sending them to hell for eternity. God is a holy love and he is also a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29, which says, "for our God is a consuming fire").

In a manner of speaking, all God has done, that is, all of creation, is done for his elect. Not at all to deny that he is doing it for himself, for his own glory, but that all creation is for the purpose of bringing about a people to be forever with him. Not even the angels have that status with him—they too were created as part of what it takes to make his particular creation.

So, whatever we may otherwise be likely to describe as, "whatever else besides what it takes to produce that people", is not really "else". It takes everything, for that people to come to be.

Notice that I said, "In a manner of speaking". I don't mean that God does not have other things in mind with which to glorify himself—let's say, for example, his holy angels. Yet, you'd be hard pressed to show that his holy angels will have no effect upon how the Bride turns out to be.

 

[EarlyActs]

John 6:40 does not pick out certain people beforehand, but rather picks the mechanism by which a person can be saved.

 

[fastfredy0]

Re: I said: I don't see how the elect are loved (favored) by the act of destroying the wicked.

In a manner of speaking, all God has done, that is, all of creation, is done for his elect. Not at all to deny that he is doing it for himself, for his own glory, but that all creation is for the purpose of bringing about a people to be forever with him. Not even the angels have that status with him—they too were created as part of what it takes to make his particular creation.

So, whatever we may otherwise be likely to describe as, "whatever else besides what it takes to produce that people", is not really "else". It takes everything, for that people to come to be.

Notice that I said, "In a manner of speaking". I don't mean that God does not have other things in mind with which to glorify himself—let's say, for example, his holy angels. Yet, you'd be hard pressed to show that his holy angels will have no effect upon how the Bride turns out to be.

Well, "in a manner of speaking" as I interpret it means "in some sense". I could agree with that as it relates to my statement.
I agree that God does wondrous things for those He loves.

 

[Eleanor]

All must be in accordance with who God is. And he is all of his attributes all of the time, in every way, everywhere. But yes, love does not overlook his justice against sin. The fact that he doesn't overlook it but brings its just punishment is love. Jesus made a way by his substitutionary atonement for some to receive mercy.

Love satisfying (subject to) justice. . .

 

[Arial]

I don't see how the elect are loved (favored) by the act of destroying the wicked. When God says He will destroy the wicked, the wicked are what He is referring to and the wicked are definitely not being loved (favored) by sending them to hell for eternity. God is a holy love and he is also a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29, which says, "for our God is a consuming fire").

If God promises to the elect, and also to the one who he sent to destroy the destroyer, in his word that all the wicked will be destroyed, and he does promise this; and he promises to the elect a resurrection and a new heaven and new earth with no evil or possibility of evil and the wicked, which he does promise; is it love for his covenant people that he does so? And does it bring glory to the Son? Is it love that he prepares this place for them by destroying the wicked? Covenant and covenant love are the key here.

 

[fastfredy0]

If God promises to the elect, and also to the one who he sent to destroy the destroyer, in his word that all the wicked will be destroyed, and he does promise this; and he promises to the elect a resurrection and a new heaven and new earth with no evil or possibility of evil and the wicked, which he does promise;

True enough

is it love for his covenant people that he does so?

Well, assuming you agree the God's love (agape) mean a volition to favor ..... I don't see why putting billions of people in hell is favoring me. Now, not sending us to hell is a show of love to us, but not sending someone to heaven is not doing me much of a favor (showing me love) unless you stretch the definition to somehow being a minute favor somehow to me and you.

And does it bring glory to the Son?

I'd say "yes". But the subject at hand is: Is the act of God sending people to hell a show of His love? I think it is a show of His wrath which is the opposite of "love".



Is the act of God "allowing" someone to kill all of one's children also a demonstration of God's love (favor)?

 

[CrowCross]

Could that be re-worded to say, "God wills (or decrees) some will be saved and some will not"?

God does not want all to perish and/but He wills (or decrees) some will be saved and some will not?

You could say it that way. The question is...why?
Is there some sort of legal code in heaven God follows?

 

[Josheb]

Or a countless (thousands upon thousands) number of other Christians. It is too easy, and easier than looking the beast of ourselves in the mirror, to be grateful they are forgiven and still consider them "mistakes". I have noticed that when I take a "small" sin before God, and unkind remark, a hostile attitude, a "slip up" back into my pre-Christ days, and I sit down in communion with God to ask forgiveness, here is what happens if I happen to have the courage to actually face the truth; that "little" sin becomes ginormous, because I was bought with precious blood and at a cost I cannot fathom, and I had the nerve to treat that so lightly.

Paul claimed to be chief of sinners, but I don't know his sin, nor yours. I know mine, though, and I'm the biggest sinner I know. And I say that having both been incarcerated and as a professional sitting with murderers, rapists, adulterers, those who commit other violent acts and those they've abused (what abuse does to a survivor is egregiously sinful and many of them unwittingly take on that sin as their own). The world is a very dark place and God is at work in me not to make things better, worse.

 

[Josheb]

Not that you don't have a point, but I don't think that any of us truly come face to face with our sin with the accuracy with which God sees it.

As I said, if we did, we'd either lose our mind or kill ourselves. There are two things we cannot withstand apart from Christ: 1) The full presence and glory of God, and 2) the full truth of sin.

 

[Arial]

Well, assuming you agree the God's love (agape) mean a volition to favor ..... I don't see why putting billions of people in hell is favoring me

I think the definition is somewhat simplistic when it comes as an expression of defining God's love. Admittedly, there probably is no such definition that is adequate since it is beyond our human experience and therefore knowledge. It is not the act of putting billions of people in hell that is love----it is destroying the wicked for the sake of the person and work of Christ first, and second for the sake of creation, and third for the sake of those he loves with covenant love. The last two can be and maybe should be reversed in order.

I'd say "yes". But the subject at hand is: Is the act of God sending people to hell a show of His love? I think it is a show of His wrath which is the opposite of "love".

It is not sending people to hell that is love. It is love for those Christ has redeemed that he does so. It is his wrath against sin. But it is because he is love that he has wrath against sin. Not only that, but it magnifies his grace and mercy towards those Christ purchased. They deserved his wrath as much as all the rest.

Is the act of God "allowing" someone to kill all of one's children also a demonstration of God's love (favor)?

I honestly have no idea where that question fits into the conversation.

 

[CrowCross]

He intended that they would. There was a bigger purpose than just redeeming humanity and it had t do with his glory. I don't want to get into that here as it would change the subject. I discuss it here:

• 
  Bible Questions and Study

Redemption: The Big Picture​

I have replied to that..for those wanting to see my reply click on the "Bible Questions and Study" link where I spoke about... "There was a bigger purpose than just redeeming humanity."

Direct link to my reply.

 

[fastfredy0]

t is not sending people to hell that is love. It is love for those Christ has redeemed that he does so. It is his wrath against sin. But it is because he is love that he has wrath against sin. Not only that, but it magnifies his grace and mercy towards those Christ purchased. They deserved his wrath as much as all the rest.

Well, I see your point, but I look at it from the vantage point of the wicked and when it comes to sending people to hell the wicked and God are the main characters, while the saved are just on lookers.

 

[makesends]

Well, assuming you agree the God's love (agape) mean a volition to favor ..... I don't see why putting billions of people in hell is favoring me. Now, not sending us to hell is a show of love to us, but not sending someone to heaven is not doing me much of a favor (showing me love) unless you stretch the definition to somehow being a minute favor somehow to me and you.

But it is not up to your interpretation of what he does, as to what its meaning or use is. It is not in your purview to put it into effect.

—I don't think that you would argue that knowing he does that, would have no effect on you. So what little importance YOU might put to that 'small' effect, is not likely the same importance HE puts to it. He does what he does, to turn you into what he had in mind from the beginning.