What if God, willing to. . . .

[makesends]

Alive said:
May I suggest that this is looking at this backwards. All of Adam’s race already stands condemned.

That thinking is the disaster that comes from the false doctrine of Original Sin. The only reason anyone stands condemned is because he, not Adam, has sinned. And the disaster of the heretical doctrine of Total Depravity is even worse.

Alive said:
“The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed detestable acts; There is no one who does good.

The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of mankind To see if there are any who understand, Who seek God.

They have all turned aside, together they are corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Do all the workers of injustice not know, Who devour my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the LORD?

There they are in great dread, For God is with a righteous generation.

You would put to shame the plan of the poor, But the LORD is his refuge.

Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores the fortunes of His people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.”

(Psalm 14:1-7 NAS20)

To which I added, makesends said:
Ephesians 2: "1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath."

None of that has anything to do with Adam's disobedience.

You said, "...the disaster of the heretical doctrine of Total Depravity is even worse [than Original Sin]." @Alive and I quoted from Scripture strong evidences for the doctrine of Total Depravity. Are you moving the goalposts? Are you ignoring this refutation of what you said, and moving back to something else? That's not an honest debate tactic.

But, regardless, it does have to do with Adam's disobedience. "even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin—death; and thus to all men death passed through, for that all sinned;." is restated/reaffirmed in Romans 5:18. "So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men."

 

[makesends]

It means exactly what God’s word says ..I don’t need to read any scripture to know that.

Only after the rebirth did I go and buy a Bible and there it was exactly how the Spirit revealed himself to my heart/ spirit...

The Holy Spirit is the one who testifies Gods truth to our heart/ spirit, then the penned word backs that divine revelation to our spirit up...

Your spirit can be deceived, and even deceive itself. Your experience is not the whole of what the Scriptures are referring to, by such things as "being born again". Your experience of it is only your experience of it, and so you interpret Scripture according to your experience.

I am not saying that you are wrong —far from it! But I am saying that it is unsafe to assume that what you experience is the meaning behind what you read. Keep reading, keep studying and keep reasoning, IN PRAYER, and keep thanking God for every insight! God bless you, sister!

 

[Ritajanice]

Hi, (long time no see? 'stat-ue?)

No. . .we can do nothing until the Holy Spirit sovereignly rebirths us (Jn 3:3-5), whose sovereign choice of us is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

Yes, only the Spirit can bring us to repentance/ Godly sorrow....

 

[Ritajanice]

Your spirit can be deceived, and even deceive itself. Your experience is not the whole of what the Scriptures are referring to, by such things as "being born again". Your experience of it is only your experience of it, and so you interpret Scripture according to your experience.

My becoming Born Again by the Spirit Of God is exactly as it says in Gods penned word.

My experience is as exactly as the penned word says, and NO your spirit cannot be deceived ....only Gods Living witness His Living Holy Spirit can birth our spirit into His....” Spirit gives birth to spirit “

Do you understand being Born Of God’s seed the same way as I do?

Did the Spirit testify with your spirit that we are Gods children?

We’re you Born Again by divine revelation?

Everyone has their own “ testimony “ on how they became “ Born Of God’s ( Living) seed....I know 100% in my “ spirit “ that I am Born Again....could I explain what I know now in my spirit as a very new babe...certainly not, I was new to the faith and only knew that I was Born Again...I couldn’t even explain my rebirth properly...my whole family thought that I had lost the plot as did my friends...thank God he led me to a church, where they understood me, Kings Church....I’m a happy clappy Born Again ...my spirit is Alive in Christ, which I rejoice in....I can assure you that I have not always rejoiced ...the path has been extremely hard and I’ve had my share of heartbreak....yet it is the Spirit at work in my heart every day keeps me going..I can’t do anything without Him, I also know nothing without him.

There is only one way to become Born Of God’s “ Living “seed and that is by “ HIS” Spirit....the penned word explains how we are Born Again not me.

I am not saying that you are wrong —far from it! But I am saying that it is unsafe to assume that what you experience is the meaning behind what you read.

My experience is the meaning by what you / I read....?

The Spirit speaks to my heart...always been that way.my rebirth was by divine revelation, not by reading the word, as soon as I became Born Again I went straight out and bought a Bible, and there I was exactly as divine revelation ( Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit says I was Born Again......nothing added to the word nothing taken away.

We all “ experience “ the rebirth, in our spirit ....not our intellect, of course it’s relayed to our mind and we recognise the Spirit of God straight away in our spirit....

You also “ experienced “ the rebirth, can you prove that you are Born Again?....only God and you know that...same for me....did you see God birth your spirit...of course not....just like his penned word says.

Keep reading, keep studying and keep reasoning, IN PRAYER, and keep thanking God for every insight! God bless you, sister!

Keep reading and keep studying the Bible has nothing to with becoming Born Again...not sure where your understanding of being Born Again comes from?

Did you become Born Again by reading the Bible?

Do you think studying the Bible will bring your spirit Alive in Christ?

I was Born Again 33 yrs ago...Brother I don’t assume anything...neither do I have to prove to “ anyone” that I am Born Of God’s seed, that came completely out of the blue by divine revelation.

Whatever the Spirit places on my heart to say( my belief) it can’t be stopped.....I am led by the Spirit and only the Spirit...

 

[Ritajanice]

Your spirit can be deceived, and even deceive itself.

I don’t believe this.we can be deceived in our mind 100% agree with that...never in our heart/ spirit.......as I’ve explained, if what the Living Spirit witnesses/ testifies to our heart isn’t in the penned word then it wasn’t from divine revelation.

How do you communicate with the Spirit?

Do you have to keep reading the word to know that you have been Born Of God’s seed?

I don’t have to do that, “ keep reading the word “ to know that my spirit is Born Again...that came to me by divine revelation...

Your spirit is Alive and can NEVER die , who witnesses that truth to our heart all day every day.

The penned word we need to mature and grow in Christ....we wouldn’t die without it, we just wouldn’t grow....the Spirit feeds our spirit the penned word backs up what the Living Spirit testifies/ witnesses to our heart/ spirit.

Your experience is not the whole of what the Scriptures are referring to, by such things as "being born again"

There is only one way to be Born Again...that is by Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit.....

Please explain what you mean above?

Sorry, it makes no sense to me...scripture doesn’t bring our spirit Alive in Christ now does it?

 

[makesends]

My becoming Born Again by the Spirit Of God is exactly as it says in Gods penned word.

My experience is as exactly as the penned word says, and NO your spirit cannot be deceived ....only Gods Living witness His Living Holy Spirit can birth our spirit into His....” Spirit gives birth to spirit “

Do you understand being Born Of God’s seed the same way as I do?

Did the Spirit testify with your spirit that we are Gods children?

We’re you Born Again by divine revelation?

No. I was reborn by the Spirit of God "being installed" in me, changing me. He didn't convince me and then I accepted. It was done in me, and then I accepted. I was convinced AFTER being reborn. It was not a cooperative venture.

Everyone has their own “ testimony “ on how they became “ Born Of God’s ( Living) seed....I know 100% in my “ spirit “ that I am Born Again....could I explain what I know now in my spirit as a very new babe...certainly not, I was new to the faith and only knew that I was Born Again...I couldn’t even explain my rebirth properly...my whole family thought that I had lost the plot as did my friends...thank God he led me to a church, where they understood me, Kings Church....I’m a happy clappy Born Again ...my spirit is Alive in Christ, which I rejoice in....I can assure you that I have not always rejoiced ...the path has been extremely hard and I’ve had my share of heartbreak....yet it is the Spirit at work in my heart every day keeps me going..I can’t do anything without Him, I also know nothing without him.

There is only one way to become Born Of God’s “ Living “seed and that is by “ HIS” Spirit....the penned word explains how we are Born Again not me.



My experience is the meaning by what you / I read....?

The Spirit speaks to my heart...always been that way.my rebirth was by divine revelation, not by reading the word, as soon as I became Born Again I went straight out and bought a Bible, and there I was exactly as divine revelation ( Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit says I was Born Again......nothing added to the word nothing taken away.

We all “ experience “ the rebirth, in our spirit ....not our intellect, of course it’s relayed to our mind and we recognise the Spirit of God straight away in our spirit....

You also “ experienced “ the rebirth, can you prove that you are Born Again?....only God and you know that...same for me....did you see God birth your spirit...of course not....just like his penned word says.





Keep reading and keep studying the Bible has nothing to with becoming Born Again...not sure where your understanding of being Born Again comes from?

Did you become Born Again by reading the Bible?

Do you think studying the Bible will bring your spirit Alive in Christ?

I was Born Again 33 yrs ago...Brother I don’t assume anything...neither do I have to prove to “ anyone” that I am Born Of God’s seed, that came completely out of the blue by divine revelation.

Whatever the Spirit places on my heart to say( my belief) it can’t be stopped.....I am led by the Spirit and only the Spirit...

I was saying to keep reading and praying etc, as encouragement, not as though I doubt you belong to him. I wouldn't have called you my sister, if that was the case.

But yes, even after being born again, we can be deceived, and deceive ourselves, as to what Scriptures mean. Our experience is far from the whole story.

 

[makesends]

I don’t believe this.we can be deceived in our mind 100% agree with that...never in our heart/ spirit.......as I’ve explained, if what the Living Spirit witnesses/ testifies to our heart isn’t in the penned word then it wasn’t from divine revelation.

Pardon my misstatement, if what you take as heart/spirit is only what is of the Spirit. I hope you don't deny that the Old Man in you is still active and working to deceive you. It was only my way of putting it. The old man in me is always working to take over, and trying to win me back to slavery to sin.

How do you communicate with the Spirit?

Maybe your question is really, how does the Spirit communicate with you?

Do you have to keep reading the word to know that you have been Born Of God’s seed?

Of course not. That is not my point at all.

I don’t have to do that, “ keep reading the word “ to know that my spirit is Born Again...that came to me by divine revelation...

You do need to keep reading the word for its many blessings, to grow in grace and to learn about him, and to correct our man-centric notions. I didn't say you need to read it to know that you are born again. "Keep reading the Word" to feed the new man.

Your spirit is Alive and can NEVER die , who witnesses that truth to our heart all day every day.

The penned word we need to mature and grow in Christ....we wouldn’t die without it, we just wouldn’t grow....the Spirit feeds our spirit the penned word backs up what the Living Spirit testifies/ witnesses to our heart/ spirit.

makesends said:
Your experience is not the whole of what the Scriptures are referring to, by such things as "being born again"

There is only one way to be Born Again...that is by Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit.....

Please explain what you mean above?

Sorry, it makes no sense to me...scripture doesn’t bring our spirit Alive in Christ now does it?

I am saying there is always more to the Gospel than what we have experienced or understood. As evidence of this, consider the fact that we don't know the depth of sin nor the richness of God's mercy. We only know a little.

 

[Ritajanice]

Pardon my misstatement, if what you take as heart/spirit is only what is of the Spirit.

I’m in the spirit not the flesh.

I hope you don't deny that the Old Man in you is still active and working to deceive you. It was only my way of putting it. The old man in me is always working to take over, and trying to win me back to slavery to sin.

I agree with that...we put off the old man, which has to come by divine revelation/ revealed to the heart/ understood in the heart/spirit.....

Ephesians 4:22-24

King James Version

​

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Maybe your question is really, how does the Spirit communicate with you?

Of course not. That is not my point at all.

You do need to keep reading the word for its many blessings,

My blessings come from the Spirit of God...not from the Bible.

to grow in grace and to learn about him,

I learn all about God in my spirit, then what the Spirit testifies/ witnesses to my heart is then checked out in the penned word.....and no, I don’t need to do anything, God is completely in control of my learning and understanding his word, God puts no pressure on me whatsoever...we learn spiritual matters in “ His” timing...not our timing.

and to correct our man-centric notions. I didn't say you need to read it to know that you are born again. "Keep reading the Word" to feed the new man.

The Holy Spirit feeds my spirit, then I check out what he testifies/ witnesses to my spirit with scripture..I have a Living Spirit to spirit relationship with God...not with the Bible, the Bible backs up what the Holy Spirit testifies/ witnesses to my spirit bringing his word to my understanding in my spirit......we are spirit children, therefore communicate in spirit with God via his witness His Living Holy Spirit.

makesends said:
Your experience is not the whole of what the Scriptures are referring to, by such things as "being born again"

I am saying there is always more to the Gospel than what we have experienced or understood. As evidence of this, consider the fact that we don't know the depth of sin nor the richness of God's mercy. We only know a little.

Sorry, I don’t need to know any of this.

A Born Again doesn’t sin they have been Born Of God’s seed.....of course I’m still a sinner Living in a sin body...only God no longer sees my sin as I’m Born Of His seed and Alive in Christ.

 

[Ritajanice]

No. I was reborn by the Spirit of God "being installed" in me, changing me.

Being installed in me isn’t biblical.

He didn't convince me and then I accepted. It was done in me, and then I accepted. I was convinced AFTER being reborn. It was not a cooperative venture.

That makes no sense to me...It wasn’t “ done in me” I don’t understand that.i don’t understand “ accepted” either........mine came completely out of the blue and completely blew my mind!, it all went according to his purpose and plan ( my rebirth) ..my heart was prepared and ready by God to receive His Spirit....Spirit gives birth to spirit....

John 3:8

King James Version

​

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I was saying to keep reading and praying etc, as encouragement, not as though I doubt you belong to him. I wouldn't have called you my sister, if that was the case.

Ok, thank you for the encouragement....

But yes, even after being born again, we can be deceived, and deceive ourselves, as to what Scriptures mean. Our experience is far from the whole story.

We can misinterpret scripture of course...I find scripture pretty self explanatory once I understand what God is witnessing to my spirit....I have been deceived in my mind...never in my heart..as I received divine revelation .over a situation....if God delivers his truth by divine revelation it can NEVER be erased from the heart/ spirit....God Got me through that deceit and lying from a couple.....of course you only hear my side of the story ( not the full story as it can’t be shared)....I completely have distanced myself from them and have nothing to do with them....I have given them over to God, I can’t make them speak the truth....or reveal the truth of what’s in their heart, only God can do that....it’s hard to explain as I can’t share, which does frustrate me at times, hopefully I will be able to share one day.

 

[JIM]

But, regardless, it does have to do with Adam's disobedience. "even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin—death; and thus to all men death passed through, for that all sinned;." is restated/reaffirmed in Romans 5:18. "So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men."

Why do you guys, and not just those of the Reformed Theology, always quote the first part of verses 18 and 19 and then ignore or completely misinterpret the second part of those verses. In any "just as....so also" phrasing of an argument it is the "so also" that is the point being made. Namely, the point that Paul is making in those two verses is that "one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

We must keep in mind here that the comparison is between the effects of Adam's disobedience and the effects of Jesus' obedience. This is not about the effects, one way or the other, about our disobedience. Our sins are not in view here at all in these verses. Paul's discussion about our sins begins in 5:20, continuing on into and through chapter six. Given that all agree that the effects of Adam's disobedience is upon all men and that at the birth (or before) of those men. The "so also" then demands that the effects of Jesus' obedience is upon all men and that at the birth (or before) of those men. How can that be? Quite simply, the effects of Jesus' obedience is the negating of the effects of Adam's disobedience. If it were only the effects of Adam's disobedience in view here then Original Sin is the result. But that is not the case. Given that Jesus was true, he, the Son of God, did come to earth, live, obediently die on the cross and was raised up again, then the effects of that obedience is Original Grace. We all come into this world with a spirit, free of any sin, clearly free of our sins, but because of Jesus Christ we come into this world with a spirit free of any adverse effects of Adam's sin. That is in complete harmony with the whole rest of scripture. God lambasted the people of Israel in Ezekiel 18 for thier failure to understand this. We are not born in Original Sin. We are born in Original Grace.

Now back to verse 12. First, the death that entered the world due to Adam's sin was spiritual death, not physical death. And the spiritual death spread to all men. Why? Because all men sinned. Your spiritual death was the result of your sin, not Adam's. That anyone would even think God would condemn someone for what someone else had done is nothing but sheer blasphemy.

 

[David1701]

No. It is based on something someone else posted and it is a valid question given what was stated (and that should have been recognized if the thread has been read). Arial was able to answer it. Why no one else? Why should I have to ask that question multiple times and no one answer it (until Arial did so).

The question relied upon invalid assumptions.

And the unsaved non-elect, too. That repentance would be the same for all unsaved people . In other words, there are a series of unstated assumptions being made simply by treating verse 9 as soteriological and is applicable solely to the elect...... especially when the matter of perishing comes into play. I have said this repeatedly: The elect cannot perish. God not wanting those who cannot perish is oxymoronic!

You don't appear to understand what an oxymoron is. Besides which, the elect cannot perish BECAUSE God does not want them to perish. This is obviously good and encouraging for God's people to know and to be reminded about.

As far as verse 9 being about salvation is concerned: this is obvious.

2 Pet. 3:3-7 (Webster)
3 Knowing this first, that there will come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 By which the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved to fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The above section was written to God's people, but it is about the ungodly unbelieving Jews, who rejected Christian teaching about the coming of the Lord.

2 Pet. 3:8,9
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Verse 8 is a contrast: it is now both to and about God's elect, towards whom God is long-suffering, not willing that any of us should perish but that all of us should come to repentance (and this long-suffering of God is why all the elect come to repentance).

That this is about salvation is confirmed in verse 15.

2 Pet. 3:14,15
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found by him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, hath written to you;

 

[David1701]

What specifically did I post that was contradictory?

I don't care. Your staggering is irrelevant.

Here is what Arial posted.

"Peter isn't saying the already saved need to come to repentance. He is saying the delay in the coming of the Day of the Lord, "slow to fulfill His promise" (what is being discussed) is is not slowness but patience with all those He has known (the elect) from before the foundation of the world---waiting for them to come to repentance. There is an exact number. They must all be born and all hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him.

It is a gathering of the flock. In Peter the patience concerns all those He is giving to Christ. In Romans 9 it is His long-suffering with the wicked until the flock is gathered."

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/what-if-god-willing-to.1989/post-85500

You posted that the repentance in 2 Pet. 3:9 is not about salvation. Arial's post is about salvation ("They must all ... hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him.").

 

[Josheb]

Agreed, however, without the Gospel and the work of the Holy Spirit all of which leads to both the inner transformation and the external works (repent, baptized), one is NOT the elect, is one?

Nope. Sorta.

It is the elect who respond to the gospel. It is the elect in whom the Holy Spirit works for the purpose of salvation from sin. It is the elect in which inner transformation occurs, and who have soteriologically salient works. The non-elect have none of that. There is, therefore, a sort of "Which comes first?" false dichotomy because it the elect in whom all the things listed occur in order to be manifested as the elect. Fleshly response to the gospel is not salvific. Spirit-inspired and empowered responses are.

 

[Josheb]

To what repentance would the elect need to come?

The elect are chosen to be saved in time. . .they are not born saved in time.

Yep, and nothing I have posted should be construed to say otherwise.

And you did not answer my question.

Don't confuse the eternal with the temporal.

I didn't. So don't insinuate I did with non sequiturs while ignoring the question asked and not answering it.

 

[Josheb]

The question relied upon invalid assumptions.

No, it relied on something specific another poster posted.

You don't appear to understand what an oxymoron is.

Hmmm... right. I'm the bad guy and the best way to handle this disagreement is to insinuate ad hominem by calling into question my knowledge and understanding.

Oxymoron: a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction.

If the juxtaposition of the inability of the elect to soteriologically perish is not an apparent contradiction with God's desire they not perish then it is a blatant one.

That this is about salvation is confirmed in verse 15.

2 Pet. 3:14,15
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found by him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, hath written to you;

Ugh

The readers to whom the epistle was addressed are already saved. They are not people who need to be saved from sin, or saved from sin again. I earlier asked "What repentance do the elct need?" and only one poster was able to answer the question (even though the question is not particularly difficult to answer). Your treatment of 2 Peter 3:15 begs the question, "What salvation do the already-saved need?"

I wonder how many times I'll have to ask that question before a correct answer is forthcoming (and how much subterfuge I'll have to observe before that occurs).

2 Peter 1:1-4
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Peter's audience was already saved. They already have everything they need to live a godly life. From the outset the entire epistle is about doing what needs to be done once having that condition.

2 Peter 1:5-11
Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

They must, therefore, apply a big bunch of stuff diligently to "make certain about His calling and choosing" us and our entrance into the kingdom supplied.

Luke 17:20-21
Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

They already had everything they needed. That would include the kingdom. Verses 14 and 15 are not about some future occasion on the other side of the grave in which we are later found to be spotless and blameless in his peace. That is a disposition we have by him, through him, for him, every day of our post-regenerate life, one we're in which we're supposed to operate here and now as we do the works for which we were saved in the first place (see psalms 51 and 139).

Psalm 139:23-24
Search me, O God, and know my heart; try me and know my anxious thoughts; and see if there be any hurtful way in me and lead me in the everlasting way.

That is supposed to be happening on this side of the grave. The soteriologically saved do not need to be saved soteriologically. They may, however, need to be saved from a variety of temporal circumstances.

 

[Josheb]

Here is what Arial posted.

"Peter isn't saying the already saved need to come to repentance. He is saying the delay in the coming of the Day of the Lord, "slow to fulfill His promise" (what is being discussed) is is not slowness but patience with all those He has known (the elect) from before the foundation of the world---waiting for them to come to repentance. There is an exact number. They must all be born and all hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him.

It is a gathering of the flock. In Peter the patience concerns all those He is giving to Christ. In Romans 9 it is His long-suffering with the wicked until the flock is gathered."

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/what-if-god-willing-to.1989/post-85500

You posted that the repentance in 2 Pet. 3:9 is not about salvation. Arial's post is about salvation ("They must all ... hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him.").

Think it through.

In answer to the question, "What repentance do the elect need?" the answer is the elect who are not yet saved need to repent as a part of the salvation experience. I agree. That is not the problem. The problem occurs when we discuss the matter of perishing. The elect CANNOT perish soteriologically. This is axiomatic to Calvinist soteriology. It does not matter whether they are the already-saved elect, or the not-yet-saved elect. THEY CANNOT PERISH SOTERIOLOGICALLY!!! So, either the clause about God not wanting them to perish is oxymoronic (the potentially perishing imperishables? ) or the perishing is not soteriological.

No one here is even remotely addressing that problem.

THE ELECT CANNOT PERISH!​

So how can God desire something not happen He knows cannot ontologically happen? If the verse is made out to pertain only to the elect, then the perishing God does not desire is not a soteriological perishing. Conversely, if the perishing is soteriological, then the verse is not limited to the elect because the elect cannot perish.




And I have started to repeat myself so unless and until I read something new, I will be taking my leave of the thread. I stand by what I said at the beginning of my participation in this thread (see Post #84).

 

[Eleanor]

Yep, and nothing I have posted should be construed to say otherwise.

And you did not answer my question.

Assuming you are referring to: "To what repentance do the elect need to come?"

All, including the elect, are born enemies of God (Ro 5:10) and objects of wrath (Ro 5:9).
The repentance to which they must come is turning from their natural-born hostility (Ro 8:7-8),
which turning (repentance) the Holy Spirit works in them (Php 2:3) because they are God's elect from all eternity.

 

[Alive]

You don't appear to understand what an oxymoron is.

Hmmm... right. I'm the bad guy and the best way to handle this disagreement is to insinuate ad hominem by calling into question my knowledge and understanding.

I wonder how many times I'll have to ask that question before a correct answer is forthcoming (and how much subterfuge I'll have to observe before that occurs).

———————————-
Houston. Do we see a problem here?

 

[Ritajanice]

@Alive , I have no idea what an oxymoron is..please explain in simple terms...I’ve looked it up.it still doesn’t make sense to me?

I know you know the answer.

 

[Alive]

It’s where two things contradict each other in a statement or phrase.
A classic example is the phrase…organized chaos.
Chaos is not organized so to assign organization to chaos is oxymoronic.