Water Baptism

[BillyBob65]

[quote[ No, I am not spouting universal salvation. Where in anything I have said, did that come from? A person has to believe in the person and work of Christ and as the way to God and the kingdom and that he is the only way. The unregenerate (natural) person cannot believe. It is foolishness to him (1 Cor 2:14). He must be born again first (John 3). The Holy Spirit does that. He goes where he will according to the will of the God. He changes a person's heart from hard and turned away from him to one soft, turned towards him (Ez 36:26). Then when he hears, he believes. (The gift of faith.) It is not a matter of accepting or rejecting this gift. It is given through a regenerating act of God. Monergism. All of God. Anything less, is a work.

This I agree with and we find the way in Acts 2 where the gospel is preached for the first time when the doors of the church are opened and God starts adding to the church for the first time. The way is there we just have to follow the teaching to find Gods plan. The gospel call is sent out they believe and ask what to do to be saved and Peter tells them and then God adds them .

Romans 10:8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Looks to me like man can hear the gospel believe the gospel and obey the gospel. It doesn't say men can not understand without divine intervention.

here I was saying you just described yourself with this statement ". You have already made up your mind, already determined that it means what you say, and are impervious to anything said about it that does not agree."

I did respond to that it is you that did not respond to what I posted on that. I will try to find the post and redirect you to my response.

One can't turn from a sinful nature anymore that a leopard can change its spots. Remember in the thread the Baptism of John what the repentance was for Israel? It was turning away from the ways national Israel had broken the covenant, and back to covenant obedience. Then they were baptized to show this repentance and desire for cleansing. It identified the faithful remnant.
Now put that in relation to Christian repentance. Non-Jews were not in a covenant, so our repentance is different but similar. It is much bigger because it is eternal. It is much bigger because it actually deals with the issue that is the cause of all our woes---sin. And not just our personal sins but the nature of being a sinner (sinful being) through Adam. So, what we are repenting of is our very enmity with God, our very alienation from him. We are submitting to him as our King and sovereign. And we are coming to him through Christ who died for us, wearing is robes of righteousness. Not in our own righteousness, for we have none. That is what remits our sins. Not water baptism.

I can agree with you on the turning away from sin and "submitting to him as our King and sovereign". Where I have to disagree is that that alone is where sin is remitted because according to scripture it is when one repents and is baptized in the name of Christ that sins are remitted. Romans 6 testify's to that fact that it is when were were baptized that the old sinful man was buried.

I am sorry I have been trying to respond to your remarks sorry if I haven't done a good at it. I will try to do better. It is just this is going fast and My mind must not be keeping up so I am sorry and will work on that.
[/QUOTE]
sorry for the repeat but edit button didn't work so this is the only way I knew to fix it.

 

[Carbon]

Okay see you are doing what you accuse me of you are taking this chapter out of context to try to make it fit your views. We really need to take this chapter and study it to get to the truth of what is being said here. It is a long post so needs to have its own thread.

Hardly. You just cannot see it any other way than what you have been taught. Sadly.

In short you must figure out the difference of spirit upon what and why it means and the spirit with in they have two different functions and until you understand that this will not make sense to you.

Really? And what have you been taught here?

I am willing to go into an in depth study with you on this chapter if you wish.

Sure, I have no issue with this. But it must be done correctly. You are not a teacher here.

First question do you agree that this is where the gentiles are being added go the church?

Again, you are not the teacher here. You're a visitor.

 

[Carbon]

It sounds like he is just someone reading the bible and taking it for its word.

Ha, okay.

 

[Carbon]

I am willing to go into an in depth study with you on this chapter if you wish.

First question do you agree that this is where the gentiles are being added go the church

You would like to do an in-depth study on Acts ch 10, huh?

 

[BillyBob65]

Hardly. You just cannot see it any other way than what you have been taught. Sadly.

Really? And what have you been taught here?

Sure, I have no issue with this. But it must be done correctly. You are not a teacher here.

Again, you are not the teacher here. You're a visitor.

That is really funny you calling me out on this. This is exactly my thoughts about you.
I don't claim to be a teacher just stating what I understand the word is actually saying. Are you the teacher here?

 

[BillyBob65]

You would like to do an in-depth study on Acts ch 10, huh?

I am up to it if someone want to do so.

 

[Carbon]

I am up to it if someone want to do so.

Well, go ahead then and start your own thread. I'll be waiting.


In Bible questions and study.

 

[Arial]

I am saying how can you read Romans 6 and not see that in baptism (Acts 2:38) is where God remits sin. He buries the old man of sin and raises the new life in Christ. The whole chapter is dealing with thus fact. It clearly states that it is when we are baptized (Acts 2 :38) that we are baptized into his death (gospel his death burial and resurrection) this is where God does his spiritual work of transforming us from dead in sin to alive in Christ (new birth/born again). I for the life of me can not understand how anyone spiritual or not can not read this and understand what Paul is saying.
Paul says thus is the grace the new life the born again how we are to obey the gospel. It is all there all spelled out that even a fourth grader can understand. The problem is it does not fit with some peoples man made views. Some have harden there hearts to this truth to cling to there own understanding.

Acts 10 disagrees. I guess I will have to exegete Romans 6 using proper Bible hermeneutics for you. But not tonite. And then I am done with you. I am not inclined to spin in a circle.

 

[Arial]

Looks to me like man can hear the gospel believe the gospel and obey the gospel. It doesn't say men can not understand without divine intervention.

I gave you the scripture in 1 Cor that says exactly that. So does John 3 and John 1: 12-13 Do you just believe the verses you want to and pretend the ones you don't want to believe aren't there? Those passages you gave do not say that everyone without exception can hear the gospel believe the gospel and obey the gospel. In fact, it says some don't.

here I was saying you just described yourself with this statement ". You have already made

Well, I am not the one who said I was trying to determine something when I wasn't because I had already determined that something. That was you.

I am sorry I have been trying to respond to your remarks sorry if I haven't done a good at it. I will try to do better. It is just this is going fast and My mind must not be keeping up so I am sorry and will work on that.

All well and good. But why did you quote an entire paragraph of mine that contained a lot of information and say nothing about it?

 

[Arial]

I have dealt with this is separate posts I will have to find them for there were more than one and they did not get a response from anyone.

Please make a note of your posts that have not been responded to. I don't always get an alert.

 

[Carbon]

I am trusting in Christ alone. I trust that when he told me to be baptized in his name He knew what he was talking about unlike some and trusted he did Just as Paul said happened in that baptism in Romans 6 sounds to me that you are trying to trump what Jesus said with your own belief but thank you for your advise but I will take Jesus teaching over your no offence.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/baptism-rc.3429/

 

[BillyBob65]

All well and good. But why did you quote an entire paragraph of mine that contained a lot of information and say nothing about it?

My laptop is acting up and driving me crazy sorry for that

 

[BillyBob65]

Please make a note of your posts that have not been responded to. I don't always get an alert.

Likewise I may have missed some as well there are sometimes a lot of new responses while I am dealing with one and I get lost. Mostly you keep saying I do not respond to your Acts 10 but but I have been trying and can't remember responses on my response. Not saying there isn't I could have missed it.I prepared a post on Acts !0 dealing with the complete chapter I will be posting shortly

 

[Arial]

In Romans six it is speaking about the water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38) it is describing the new birth (born again) it is where then old sinful man is buried in the waters of baptism and raised from the grave into a new life in the spirit. the chapter goes into great detail explaining it you have to have closed ears and be blind not to see that just read what was record as it was with out trying to put a spin on it to make it fit a misconception.

Exegetical commentary of Romans 6 as promised.

Romans is a letter written by Paul to those who already believe. In its original form it did not have chapters and verse numbers but was a normal letter. As such the entire book is one thought connecting to the next thought.

Romans 6 begins with What shall we say then? This indicates that what he is about to say is directly related to what he has just said. It is not a change of subject but an ongoing expansion of what has already been said. Romans 5 begins with a "Therefore" connecting it to what was said in chapter 4. Chapter 3 begins with a question that pertains to what was said in Chapter 2. Chapter 2 begins with another "Therefore".

In chapter one. two, and three Paul lays the foundation of all being under sin, not just the Jew. He ends that chapter with circumcision is not the deciding factor in whether one is a Jew but 29. a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Sirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

In chapter 3:21-26 Paul presents righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ "for all who believe" apart from works of the law. The chapter ends with these words 29-31 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

In chapter 4 Paul says a curious thing directly relating to the claim by @BillyBob65 that it is water baptism that remits sin.


For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

Having said all these things (and there is much more to be said but it would make the post too long and I need to get to chapter 6) the next chapter begins with
1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand,

Paul then proceeds to explain how one trespass, that of Adam, led to the condemnation of all men, and the righteousness of Christ through faith leads to the gift of righteousness' to many. The chapter ends with
20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1 asks the question, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?" And he answers the question. "By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Is Paul saying here that in water baptism we literally die and are buried? That in water baptism we are crucified? Did he all of a sudden completely change the subject? Of course not. So just like circumcision (the covenant mark) water baptism is a sign (covenant ritual) and Paul tells us exactly what it is signifying. A union with Christ through faith that identifies us with his death, burial, and resurrection. It marks us as his covenant people. The sins have already been remitted, or we would not be in Christ.

And all the rest of chapter 6 is putting the life that we are no to lead into practical terms regarding righteousness. He explains it and encourages them in the midst of suffering (for they were suffering) to not let sin reign in their mortal body.

 

[JesusFan]

You really need to read Romans six for that is exactly what Paul is trying to get you to see.
First water baptism is the only command given to us to do so when the bible talks of you being baptized it is in reference to Acts 2:38 so Romans six say 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? this is the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ as some many of this type is referencing. The holy spirit baptism was never commanded and had a purpose outside of salvation. Salvation was never the purpose of the holy spirit being poured upon we get the indwelling spirit not the spirit upon and scripture makes that clear as well but that is a whole nother study

Referring there to the Baptism of and in and by the Holy Spirit

 

[JesusFan]

Question, What is the reason for water baptism? Jesus commands the Apostles to teach and baptize so why baptize? What do the scriptures say baptism is about? I mean really Jesus would give the reason one must be water baptized wouldn't he so what was the reason Jesus gave?

As for John 3:3ff Did not Paul explain that this happened when one was baptized into Christ in Romans chapter six? Did he not spend the whole chapter explaining it how you die to sin and are born new in the spirit?

Water Baptism in the NT would be to we Baptists an outward sign and witness to already done inward work of the Holy Spirit saving us now in Christ Jesus

 

[JesusFan]

Acts 10 disagrees. I guess I will have to exegete Romans 6 using proper Bible hermeneutics for you. But not tonite. And then I am done with you. I am not inclined to spin in a circle.

Is he trying to spin in infant regeneration heresy, as seems to be going beyond just infant baptism

 

[BillyBob65]

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Please note Here Paul implies that if one has believed they have submitted to the baptism in Christ name. It seems to be a given that if you believe you also believe the teaching on baptism as being the required response and why. If baptism in Christ name wasn't for giving of the spirit as Paul seems to say here then why would it be important to correctly baptize these that were not correctly baptized. thus making it a salvation issue.

It would appear Paul correctly answered that inquiry that it was indeed as recorded by Luke that the baptism in the name of Christ was indeed the point one receives the spirit. thud making it a salvation issue. I know the faith alone crowd can not accept this biblical fact so we shall see the spin they put on this to discredit this fact.

 

[JesusFan]

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Please note Here Paul implies that if one has believed they have submitted to the baptism in Christ name. It seems to be a given that if you believe you also the teaching on baptism as being the required response and why. If baptism in Christ name wasn't for giving of the spirit as Paul seems to say here then why would it be important to correctly baptize these that were not correctly baptized.

It would appear Paul correctly answered that inquiry that it was indeed as recorded by Luke that the baptism in the name of Christ was indeed the point one receives the spirit. I know the faith alone crowd can not accept this biblical fact so we shall see the spin they put on this to discredit this fact.

Acts was a transitional history book, but is not normative to us, as now when one belives in Jesus as lord and Savior, are born again and receive the Holy Spirit right now, regardless if have been water baptized yet

 

[BillyBob65]

Exegetical commentary of Romans 6 as promised.

Romans is a letter written by Paul to those who already believe. In its original form it did not have chapters and verse numbers but was a normal letter. As such the entire book is one thought connecting to the next thought.

Romans 6 begins with What shall we say then? This indicates that what he is about to say is directly related to what he has just said. It is not a change of subject but an ongoing expansion of what has already been said. Romans 5 begins with a "Therefore" connecting it to what was said in chapter 4. Chapter 3 begins with a question that pertains to what was said in Chapter 2. Chapter 2 begins with another "Therefore".

In chapter one. two, and three Paul lays the foundation of all being under sin, not just the Jew. He ends that chapter with circumcision is not the deciding factor in whether one is a Jew but 29. a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Sirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

In chapter 3:21-26 Paul presents righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ "for all who believe" apart from works of the law. The chapter ends with these words 29-31 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

In chapter 4 Paul says a curious thing directly relating to the claim by @BillyBob65 that it is water baptism that remits sin.


For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

Having said all these things (and there is much more to be said but it would make the post too long and I need to get to chapter 6) the next chapter begins with
1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand,

Paul then proceeds to explain how one trespass, that of Adam, led to the condemnation of all men, and the righteousness of Christ through faith leads to the gift of righteousness' to many. The chapter ends with
20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1 asks the question, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?" And he answers the question. "By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Is Paul saying here that in water baptism we literally die and are buried? That in water baptism we are crucified? Did he all of a sudden completely change the subject? Of course not. So just like circumcision (the covenant mark) water baptism is a sign (covenant ritual) and Paul tells us exactly what it is signifying. A union with Christ through faith that identifies us with his death, burial, and resurrection. It marks us as his covenant people. The sins have already been remitted, or we would not be in Christ.

And all the rest of chapter 6 is putting the life that we are no to lead into practical terms regarding righteousness. He explains it and encourages them in the midst of suffering (for they were suffering) to not let sin reign in their mortal body.

I mostly agree with this but where I disagree is that baptism in Christ name was explained what really is happening not just symbolic. If it was not water baptism which is recorded as being the one in the name of Jesus Christ the only one he authorized and commanded His Apostle to do then what is the baptism in question?