Understanding the The 1000 Year Millennium in Prophecy

[Ghada]

Mastery making the spiritual understanding hid in parables as if it was the literal understanding ?

Right. The mastery of as if. Which is the mastery of nothing sure.

 

[Red Baker]

.........Interpreting a teaching as something else, is a rule for dishonesty...........

...Some people write in their own learned hieroglyphics to appear spiritual, mysterious, and prophetic. I don't bother to ask for clarification, when I see someone practicing at it.

I believe I found the person you are talking about,,,,Ghanda! Let us test your teaching and see if you are the man guilty of this rule for dishonestly. I'm convinced you are indeed.

He said He was the resurrection, not there was resurrections from the dead. He was not yet resurrected from the dead.

I am going from your last post to me to the top, because by the time I get to the top, it will be seen that you have little regard for the truth.

I believe it was you who said that if you own a forum of this nature, it would be no warnings for a person post except for extreme ungodliness~ something to that effect. I'm with you 100% on that position, I would conduct it in the same manner. So, I hope you do not have thin skin, because I'm going to be frank with you and your abuse and rejection of plain scriptures. Let us get going.

I said to you:

1. According to Jesus' teachings there was a resurrection that was present in his days (and even before)~we know this by the phrase: "now is"..so are you going to disagree with what Christ taught during his days upon the earth? Address the "now is" with your understanding. It should be interesting what you come up with, if you even attempt to do so.

Then you came back and said:

He said He was the resurrection, not there was resurrections from the dead. He was not yet resurrected from the dead.

Let us consider the context of what the Lord Jesus said:

John 5:19:29~"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Well Mr. Denialist~pray to tell me where do you find in these scriptures that I was speaking from, anything even close to what you saying, even close? Again you said:

He said He was the resurrection, not there was resurrections from the dead. He was not yet resurrected from the dead.

Christ never even mention in these scriptures that he was the resurrection (though he is), that was not part of what he was teaching within these scriptures under consideration. He clearly said these words:

John 5:25​

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

Now who is being honest with the word of God, even words spoken by God's Son, which you clearly are rejecting! You are no different than the cults of Jesus' day who rejected his word, so are you doing so now.

John 5:25 is clearly teaching a spiritual resurrection that happens when the Spirit of God by his mighty power, (the same power used to raise up Jesus from the dead,) quickens and raise up God's elect from being dead in trepasses and sins to eternal life in Jesus Christ, which life, Christ secured for them by his faith and obedience according to the will of God.

I have a long ways to go. Allow me to finished responding before you post to me again, unless you feel I'm misrepresenting you, which I would never do on purpose, but if you feel that I' am, then step in and show me~I'll correct it immediately.

 

[Red Baker]

Unfortunately you do not know how to debate doctrine, without personal charges to those that disagree with a teaching. I warned you.

Ghada, did Jesus know how to shut the mouths of gainsayers? He certainly did, and it was never coated with sugar and honey! He knew when to speak gentle words and when to speak strong words to those self righteous men of his day. You know exactly what I saying and know the scriptures as well, so I do not need to prove this. I trust before God I have learned the same way that the Lord spoke to people of his days on the earth, at least to come close to doing the same. I know at times I have failed, but I try hard not to be too harsh considering my own weakness and slow of heart.

Btw, what's this warning about, the second one you have said to me. If it gets too hot in the kitchen, then move on, things should at times get a little hot, especially so when God's word is disregarded for a person's own biased teachings.

 

[Red Baker]

Now is when men hear His voice by His resurrection, and repent unto salvation and life.

Highlighted area is mine for discussing.

You have invented a doctrine that is not taught in the scriptures, a doctrine that best suits you work gospel. Let us test your teachings with the only litmus test that a child of God should use to test truth~the word of God.

John 5:24,25~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

John 5:24 is not a conditional scripture for a person to do in order to inherit eternal life, but a scripture declaring a blessed truth contain in the word of God.

If a person can hear and believe then that person hath (already in possession of) everlasting life, not a condition to receive life, a major difference. Also, those that can hear, and believe is a heavenly proof that they will never come into condemnation, but have passed from death unto life! A spiritual resurrection clearly taught by the Lord Jesus Christ whom we honour by being faithful to his teachings. See John 5:23

Then the next verse connects with John 5:24, and follows on the heels of what the Lord taught in John 5;24, and it is this:

John 5:25~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

Ghada, here we have two scriptures, both started out with a double verily's~why did the Lord do this? Because he knew the hearts of men that what he was about to teach, few would believe and accept that which was to follow, and you are a prime example of this being so.

In verse 24, the Lord spoke of a resurrection that some had already experienced proven by them having the power to hear and believe what they were hearing. So here in verse 25, Jesus is just repeating what he had taught in verse 24~but hear he tell sun how this resurrection takes place~by the mighty power/voice of the Son of God, who was God manifest in the flesh.

You have failed a litmus test given by the word of God, this should concern you.

Now is not when men hear and are resurrected from the dead.

You failed again by saying this, proven above. You are not doing very well when being tested by the scriptures, This should concern you.

I have an appointment, coming back shortly.

 

[Mr GLee]

Right. The mastery of as if. Which is the mastery of nothing sure.

You simply have no idea what a parable is and what it is designed to do .

The understanding must still be hid from you.

 

[Mr GLee]

He said He was the resurrection, not there was resurrections from the dead. He was not yet resurrected from the dead.

Christ who worked in the Son of man is the ressurection power, the truth and life.

 

[Red Baker]

Jesus was not resurrected from the dead, until 3 days after dying on the cross.

Strawman fallacy~you are attacking a strawman that we are not even considering. This has not one thing to do with the doctrine of the new birth. Jesus even upbraided Nicodemus for being a master in Israel, and not understanding the doctrine of the new birth.

By you making such a statement, proves to me that you have very little knowledge concerning the doctrine of Soteriology.

Soteriology is the branch of theology dealing with the study of salvation. The term comes from the Greek soterion, “salvation,” and is also related to soter, “savior.” Soteriology relates to several other branches of theology and the sense of how the scriptures uses the words save/saved/salvation.

For the sake of time please consider: https://letgodbetrue.com/sermons/index/year-2015/when-was-paul-saved/

And no man was born again until His resurrection from the dead....

You are doing a terrible job concerning the litmus test the scriptures are testing you by, so bad!
Have you never read so much as these words:

Psalms 32:1,2~" Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile."

These are not the words of a man who is at enmity against God, but a man after God's own heart! All through the Psalms of David he describes two generation of people, one that is righteous, and one that is evil and wicked. No man can love and obey God apart from being made a new creature through Jesus' perfect faith and obedience. No man can have faith until they are born again. The natural man is at enmity against God and is not subject unto the word of God and neither can be. This is not my opinion, but the words of the Holy Ghosts.

Romans 8:7,8~"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

But many OT men and women did please God and obey the word of God. Some were called the friend of God, and many of them suffered greatly for their faith and love, and fear of God. Have you ever read Hebrews 11 with understanding, I think not. Let us start from the beginning:

Hebrews 11:4~"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh."

Too bad you do not hear Abel speaking on how he was made righteous by the power and mercy of God alone! He certainly was not born righteous, but born with a depraved nature that is at enmity against the God of heaven. His brother was born likewise with the same nature after the image of Adam's fallen nature and he was left in that state, according to the will of God who is not under obligation to any sinner to show them mercy. Enough on this point for now.

much less resurrected from the dead before His death.

You have more problems than I first realized. So, no one was resurrected from the dead before Jesus' death and resurrection?

And on three occasions he raised people from the dead. Jesus raised a ruler's daughter (Matt 9:23–25). Jesus raised a widow's son (Luke 7:11–17). Jesus raised his friend Lazarus (John 11:38–44) Why are you against the scriptures on so many points?

1 Peter{1:3} Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

By Scripture, your own doctrine of making spiritual rebirth a resurrection can't even be preached, until the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

God hath in both Testaments showed mercy to his elect on the behalf of what Christ would and did do! Christ in the eternal purposes of God was as a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Above scriptures, Peter made it very clear that he was begotten by God through the work of Christ, who secured our gift of eternal life. It was impossible for Christ to fail, and God knowing acted upon the sure foundation of Christ finishing the work of redemption was given to him to do.

 

[Red Baker]

True. A thousand years after the first judgment and resurrection of His saints and righteous wheat, that are harvested at His coming again, then shall be the resurrection of the rest of the dead judged by works unto everlasting life or shame.

All the wicked dead of history, including the unrighteous tares naming His name, will be resurrected unto shame. Only the just during His millennium shall be resurrected and found written in the Lamb's book of life.

I will not allow you to use....the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.. What are you saying true to? I clearly said:

Red Baker said:
Without question the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked takes place together and that, on the last day,

You said true, and then proceeded to say something totally against what I said.

You put the the resurrection of the saints and the wicked a thousand years apart, yet I said: "Without question the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked takes place together and that, on the last day".

Your position is against the very parables you are quoting.

Matthew 13:30​

“Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

This one scripture is a death blow to your corrupt doctrine~there are more, but time will not allow me to write a book on your many errors.

During the thousand years of Jesus Christ with His resurrected saints on earth, there will be a harvest unto the Lord Jesus Christ greater than all the thousands of years going before His second coming.

Prove it with scriptures~just because you have bought into this lie of the Scofield reference bible does not mean that it is so.

Christ will never reign on this present earth, only on the new earth will all of his chosen people reign with him world without end, not just for a mere thousand years. I could spend some time here, but will wait.

Isa 2:2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Zec 8:23Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

I want to come back and address this two scriptures, not so much for you, but for all sincere lovers of God's truths.

 

[Red Baker]

Isaiah 2:2​

“And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.”

OT scriptures must be understood in light of NT teachings, not the other way around. The apostles who were Jews, will interpret their OT scriptures for us~and I will add....never in the manner that the premillennialist desires, in order to support their Jewish fables that they teach, giving the Jews a false hope, while deceiving the Jews even more than they are already and deceiving themselves while doing so.

"And it shall come to pass in the last days~Is the final phase of God's kingdom on this present earth.
When Jacob used the phrase last day in Genesis 49:1, he prophesied of Jesus' reign. The apostles call the gospel area the last days: 2nd Timothy 3:1; Hebrews 1:2; James 5:3; and Peter 2nd Peter 3:3.

We must reject Dispensational ignorance and nonsense before proceeding in this great prophecy. They reject the rule that OT prophets used similitudes~figurative language.

Hosea 12:10​

“I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.”

Many of them are obsessed with literal interpretation~because to them, if the literal makes sense, then seek no other sense...... most of them are lazy bible students! And they are, and will pay a great price for their laziness of following other preachers, who were raised up under their guru Scofield. These folks are obsessed with Jewish fables, of a earthly, carnal, Semitic rule in earthly Jerusalem. Most of them are almost too scared to think otherwise, or to even listen to what others have to say from the word of God; they truly consider themselves spiritual for doing so, and folks like me their enemy, and anti semitic~ Which is far from the truth. We are indeed indebted to them for the word of God, yet we refuse to give them a false hope, which hope for them is NOW during this present dispensation, there will be none afterwards in this present earth.

Without complicating this prophecy unnecessarily, embrace it with Paul's perspective.

Paul knew and understood the OT prophecies concerning Jews and Gentiles. Ephesians 3: 1-12; Romans 11:13; 15;15,16; Colossians 1:25-29; etc.

Paul knew far more than even Isaiah. 1st Peter 10-12, and certainly more than any natural Semites.

When Paul and other apostle wrote to the Jews, they only offered them a Spiritual Zion~Hebrews 12:22-24....25-29.

The apostles when writing to the Jews, they told them that their father Abraham only saw spiritually! Hebrews 11:8-16. so much more could be added to this point. What a terrible travesty that Jewish fables have corrupted the glory of Christ.

Isaiah used similitudes~figurative language. to describe the NT kingdom of Christ.

Gentiles joined Jews until overwhelming them in the heavenly Jerusalem. Galatians 4.

The greatest kingdom ever that will destroy all others is the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. (Daniel 2:44) He's now reigning at God's right hand until God puts all of his enemies under his feet, which will take place on the last day at his coming when every eye shall him.

The true biblical Jerusalem having God's promises and blessings with real Jews and the true seed of Abraham is the NT kingdom of Jesus Christ. This kingdom is established for ever, never to be changed or, be moved, never.

Enough on this point for now.

 

[Red Baker]

Ghada~you can address some of my points, for I think I'm finished addressing yours and I'm going to finish posting on Revelation twenty.

 

[Ghada]

I believe it was you who said that if you own a forum of this nature, it would be no warnings for a person post except for extreme ungodliness

For profanity. Including Acronyms.

The charge of ungodliness in an argument outside of profanity, is meaningless. Afterall, anyone disagreeing with another, would say the other is an heretic. Which is perfectly fine with me, since I don't care about such charges, but only about sound correction of Scripture.

Let us consider the context of what the Lord Jesus said:
John 5:19:29~ For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

This is speaking of raising the dead back to life on earth. There are many such examples in the Bible.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-5-21/

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This is seen several times in the gospels by the Son raising the dead back to life on earth.

The Father would also do so with a number of dead saints at the death of Jesus Christ, who would later walk in Jersualem after His resurrection from the dead.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The only one spoken of being resurrected from the dead, is Jesus' resurrection. The rest of the saints that slept were raised back to life to live again on earth.

I can make a reasonable case that the last great antichrist and first beast of all the world, could well be an OT false prophet raised from the dead to live again on earth, until he is cast alive into the lake of fire.

He would recieve Satan fully into his heart like judas did, but not kill himself. Rather having known the terrors of the pit, he would fully embrace the dragon's ministerial service, with all earthly powers to persuade and decieve the most believers ever, into his own form of Christian-Jewish religion.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

This is a coming hour, not now is, where all dead bodies in the graves will be resurrected unto judgment. Which is the only time in the teaching, where Jesus speaks of resurrection from the dead.

Raising dead children and adults back to life on earth, is to continue living on earth. It's not resurrection from the dead unto judgment of works.

Christ never even mention in these scriptures that he was the resurrection (though he is), that was not part of what he was teaching within these scriptures under consideration.

All Scriptures must be taken together. Jesus being the resurrection and the life applies to all Scriptures of Him speaking of raising the dead back to life, as well as resurrecting the dead unto judgment.

John 5:25 is clearly teaching a spiritual resurrection

No Scripture speaks of a spirit-only resurrection, but only of a bodily resurrection. The word resurrection is not found with spiritual new birth, nor raising the dead to live again on earth.

(the same power used to raise up Jesus from the dead,) quickens and raise up God's elect from being dead in trepasses and sins to eternal life in Jesus Christ,

Being born again is not being resurrected from the dead.

2Ti 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Preaching the resurrection of the dead is already done, other than for Jesus Christ, is an old heresy condemned by Scripture.

And it overthrows the faith of some, if the teaching is followed with reigning now and forever without the Father judging our works. Which in turn leads to more sinning without the fear of the Lord:

Rom 16:18 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

1 Peter But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Which is why this warning of scripture immediately follows the heresy of saying the resurrection is past. Certain believers can preach themselves resurrected from the dead now and forever all they wish in this life, but that ends in the grave. In the end God will judge us all by our works, whether we be acceptable to Christ and worthy of His resurrection,

Rev{3:4} Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Or, rejected of Christ and worthy of His contempt.

Rom 1:32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2Co 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[Red Baker]

For profanity. Including Acronyms.

We're probably pretty close on this with the exception of using Acronyms, I see nothing wrong using them, and if the reading was not sure, then google to see, it would broaden their understanding on such things.

The charge of ungodliness in an argument outside of profanity, is meaningless. Afterall, anyone disagreeing with another, would say the other is an heretic. Which is perfectly fine with me, since I don't care about such charges, but only about sound correction of Scripture.

Amen~with you 100%.

This is speaking of raising the dead back to life on earth. There are many such examples in the Bible. https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-5-21/

You are dead wrong~two things to consider with your statement. First~

John 5:29​

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

John 5:29 speaks of the general resurrection of all bodies that are in the graves, etc., on the last day; some to eternal life, others to judgement and damnation,, or, to the lake of fire, which is the second death, just as this is also the second and final resurrection.

But, it is also written:

Revelation 20:6​

“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

So, back to John 5:21-29 that I used to prove my point concerning the first resurrection being the new birth, when a sinner who is dead in tresspasses and sins is brough to life by the almighty power of God, the same power which was used to raised Christ from the dead.

Your comments on John 5:25 in reference to my comments, you said:

This is seen several times in the gospels by the Son raising the dead back to life on earth.

The Father would also do so with a number of dead saints at the death of Jesus Christ, who would later walk in Jersualem after His resurrection from the dead.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The only one spoken of being resurrected from the dead, is Jesus' resurrection. The rest of the saints that slept were raised back to life to live again on earth.

A couple of points: you never address my points in reference to all I said from John 5:21 to John 5:26! You must take what I have said and refute it, or agree with it, either or, but do not take off and build a strawman like you are doing~we all know Christ personally raised folks from the dead in the gospel at least three times, but John 5:21-25 is not speaking of bodily resurrection, but a spiritual resurrection in order for the sinner to hear, and believe, a major different. I said:

John 5:25~Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.​

Verily, verily, I say unto you.

Jesus continued to declare axioms or rules of doctrine of His role in salvation. He has risen to heights of glorious doctrine that fully justify this expression.

The hour is coming, and now is.

Note the difference between an hour present and one that was yet to come (28). Jesus now had the authority as the Son of God to resurrect men in regeneration.

When the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God. This resurrection comes in close connection to the gift of eternal life (5:24). We do not confuse this quickening by His voice with the general resurrection. The general resurrection is rather clearly distinguished by the words of v. 28. That resurrection is of all men that are in graves, neither fact is true here. There is different timing in that one was presently true and the other future. We receive this quickening to life, by the life-giving voice of Christ as regeneration. There is a quickening from death to life to be identified here (Eph 2:1-3). This is the first resurrection to save some from the second death (Rev 20:6). All who have experienced this resurrection, the second death has no power over, which proves it is a spiritual resurrection, for it would be no need to add that saying if it were not.

It is the voice of the Son of God here, not the voice of preachers about the Son. If we insert the voice of preachers or soul winners here, we must in 28 also. His shout will raise all dead bodies (28-29), so His voice is effectual here.
And they that hear shall live.

The hearing here is limited – it is not all as in the next resurrection of bodies. The hearing here is passive – in that dead cannot hear but come alive anyway. When Jesus resurrected Lazarus, His call was not an offer or a suggestion. When Jesus raised Lazarus, His call was effectual with power to give life.

You need to address and refute, if you can what I have posted.~or, you have no argument to defend your rejection of the first resurrection being a spiritual resurrection that takes place when one is born again.

I can make a reasonable case that the last great antichrist and first beast of all the world, could well be an OT false prophet raised from the dead to live again on earth, until he is cast alive into the lake of fire.

He would recieve Satan fully into his heart like judas did, but not kill himself. Rather having known the terrors of the pit, he would fully embrace the dragon's ministerial service, with all earthly powers to persuade and decieve the most believers ever, into his own form of Christian-Jewish religion.

There is no such truth as "the last great antichrist and first beast of all the world"~That's a deception that has taken hold in many professing church, but it is false~enough said for now on the antichrist.

I'll make one more post addressing your post in a few..I do not want this to be too long, for folks reading.

 

[Mr GLee]

Wrongly 'spiritualizing' the sure things of Scripture, such as historical and prophetic events, makes them false accounts. If the Red Sea did not part for dry ground to cross, then any allegorical teaching of it is akin to an Aesop fable. Same with the Lord's millennium if it is not for a thousand years upon the earth.

Why compare parables as prophecy to Aesop fables?

Historical events are used as parables. Comparing the temporal dying thing seen historical to the eternal spiritual not seen . The whole time period there were Kings in Israel was used as a shadow. . parable .

It would seemed you are confused to the spiritual unseen matters of Christ's faith as if a person could see a spirit .And God was a Jewish man dying mankind

1 Corinthians 2: 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his (unseen) Spirit: for the Spirit(unseen) searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, (literal) but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual (unseen things) things with spiritual.(unseen )

Not comparing the temporal things seen historical to the same eternal not seen .No spiritual understanding .

He has not left us without a tool needed to rightly divide the mix.

If our gospel message , it is hid to them that are lost and refuse to rightly divide the spiritual understanding.:

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

No mixing of the two in comparison. . no eternal rest

 

[Red Baker]

This is a coming hour, not now is, where all dead bodies in the graves will be resurrected unto judgment. Which is the only time in the teaching, where Jesus speaks of resurrection from the dead.

"Which is the only time in the teaching, where Jesus speaks of resurrection from the dead."~This wrong, and I have proven above more than once that your understanding of only a bodily resurrection is spoken of in John 5:21-29~there are clearly two, one spiritual, being the first one the Lord proved, and then bodily at the general resurrection of all on the last day. The key to understand this is the phrase~Now IS~the phrase now is, has been going on since the very beginning of this world from Adam and Eve onward, and will continue until the final bodily resurrection on the last day.

Raising dead children and adults back to life on earth, is to continue living on earth. It's not resurrection from the dead unto judgment of works.

No one has said that they are, afterall we only have a handful of example of this in the scriptures~neither is this the now is resurrection of Jesus' teaching! That you labor to try to teach to escape the spiritual resurrection that happens at the new birth.

All Scriptures must be taken together. Jesus being the resurrection and the life applies to all Scriptures of Him speaking of raising the dead back to life, as well as resurrecting the dead unto judgment.

Again, you cannot build a strawman to fight by avoiding addressing what is put before you to address. I said:

Christ never even mention in these scriptures that he was the resurrection (though he is), that was not part of what he was teaching within these scriptures under consideration. He clearly said these words:

John 5:25​

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

Now who is being honest with the word of God, even words spoken by God's Son, which you clearly are rejecting! You are no different than the cults of Jesus' day who rejected his word, so are you doing so now.

John 5:25 is clearly teaching a spiritual resurrection that happens when the Spirit of God by his mighty power, (the same power used to raise up Jesus from the dead,) quickens and raise up God's elect from being dead in trepasses and sins to eternal life in Jesus Christ, which life, Christ secured for them by his faith and obedience according to the will of God.

You are avoiding addressing my point while saying something that may be true in another passage of scriptures, but that's not how you debate honestly, effectively, or even having a chance of disproving your opponent.

No Scripture speaks of a spirit-only resurrection, but only of a bodily resurrection. The word resurrection is not found with spiritual new birth, nor raising the dead to live again on earth.

Ghada, then you have a serious problem to address, not with me, but with God's testimony of a truth taught in His word, not a safe ground to stand upon.

Ephesians 1:19,20~"And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"

Paul makes it very clear, that the same power God used in raising Christ for the dead, he also used in raising his elect from the dead.

Was Jesus' resurrection a true resurrection? Of course it was, and so is those who God quickens to life those who were dead in tresspasses and sin~it took the same power in both instances as both were a resurrection in the true sense of what a resurrection is. Paul goes on to say:

Ephesians 2:1​

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;”
The very second Adam sinned, he died spiritually in his soul toward God, and became at enmity against him. The only way possible to have fellowship again with God is for man to be made alive, created after his image, and that's only possible by the Spirit quickening one to life by His mighty power. It is a spiritual resurrection called by the apostles the first resurrection, over which the second death has no power.

The Lord said these words:

Luke 9:60​

“Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.”

Understand what Jesus meant by that, and you may begin to understand this truth~the first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection from death unto life, which is now happening in a small degree throughout his world, by the Spirit of God, by His mighty power alone sovereignly working where He wills to work

2Ti 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Preaching the resurrection of the dead is already done, other than for Jesus Christ, is an old heresy condemned by Scripture.

And it overthrows the faith of some, if the teaching is followed with reigning now and forever without the Father judging our works. Which in turn leads to more sinning without the fear of the Lord:

This is speaking of those men who say that the bodily resurrection is past already~and Paul addresses this in depth in 1st corinthians 15.

We not saying it is past past, but that there IS one happening now, a big difference. The rest of your quote is a moot point. Your words here are not practicing sincere exegesis of God's words, but you are guilty of eisegesis God's word to push your false understanding of the scriptures. You are building your theology on sand.

In the end God will judge us all by our works, whether we be acceptable to Christ and worthy of His resurrection,

Part truth, and half truth is a lie. We are made acceptable unto God on the behalf of what Christ did for us, and if we are Christ, then we will live according, not perfect, but our overall life will be a witness that we are true follower of Jesus Christ and lover of the truth.

Rom 1:32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2Co 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

No problem, we fully agree with these scriptures, but they have no bearing on the discussion at hand of the two resurrection doctrines.

 

[Mr GLee]

Being born again is not being resurrected from the dead.

2Ti 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some

Hi I would offer.

It seems you are looking from the standpoint of the propmised three day and night demonstration of the actual work of the lamb slain within the six day Christ did work .

The demonstration is not the work. Satan would have it all one in the same .Both sides of the coin the same

Abel, the second born was used to represent all born again, the unseen seed Christ.

Satan murdered him and God provide another to represent our new birth Enos. . it was passed to the second born on until the birth of the Son of man Jesus .

The Holy Fathers first born again Son of God along with his brother and sister that do the will of the Father .

Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

Dying mankind did not call before they knew a person must be born again . Marvel not.

 

[Ghada]

Ghada, did Jesus know how to shut the mouths of gainsayers? He certainly did, and it was never coated with sugar and honey! He knew when to speak gentle words and when to speak strong words to those self righteous men of his day. You know exactly what I saying and know the scriptures as well, so I do not need to prove this. I trust before God I have learned the same way that the Lord spoke to people of his days on the earth, at least to come close to doing the same. I know at times I have failed, but I try hard not to be too harsh considering my own weakness and slow of heart.

Btw, what's this warning about, the second one you have said to me. If it gets too hot in the kitchen, then move on, things should at times get a little hot, especially so when God's word is disregarded for a person's own biased teachings.

The warning was from possible moderator intervention that could hault the argument, which I don't want to happen. Personally, I don't care about such personal judgments, but only about the Scriptural dispute at hand.

 

[Ghada]

You have invented a doctrine that is not taught in the scriptures, a doctrine that best suits you work gospel.

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts{11:17} Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? {11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is repentance unto salvation. It's the promise of salvation from old sinning with justification by new righteous works.

The gospel of salvation unto repentance is man's sinful religion, not God's pure religion.

John 5:24

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All Scripture is inclusive of all other Scripture.

Mark{1:15} The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Heb {6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Once a principle of Christ is written in Scripture, then it pertains to all Scripture, and in the order given. Therefore, there is no believing on the Son nor the Father unto everlasting life, without first repenting from all dead works of darkness.

The gospel of faith unto salvation and life, is man's religion by one's own faith alone. God's pure religion is by the gospel of repentance unto saving faith and life in Christ Jesus.

is not a conditional scripture for a person to do in order to inherit eternal life, but a scripture declaring a blessed truth contain in the word of God.

All of God's promises and warnings are conditional, since the beginning.

We may eat of all the fruits of God, if we do not eat the fruit of darkness.

If a person can hear and believe

Every man hears with the ears, but only them that obey the command and repent, believe with the heart and do His righteousness.

Acts{17:30} And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Rom 10:9For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Hearers that do not believe in doing the righteousness of God, but in continued sinning, are not doers of the word of the Lord Jesus, but hearers only.

then that person hath (already in possession of) everlasting life, not a condition to receive life, a major difference.

There's a major difference between believing we have eternal life while sinning against God, and having eternal life with faith in Jesus Christ to sin not.

New Age divines believe they have eternal life, and some also name Christ. Sinful man's own faith is not the everlasting faith toward God, that is only given to the hearts that repent of their sins and trespassing for Jesus' sake.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God...

Heb {6:1} Let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Also, those that can hear, and believe is a heavenly proof that they will never come into condemnation, but have passed from death unto life!

Those who believe they are no more condemned with the world, with continued unrighteousness and works of the flesh, are decieved by their own faith in themselves alone in naming the name of Christ.

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The unrighteous Jews believed they were justified with the God of Israel, by only having the oracles of God, apart from keeping His faith. The unrighteous Christians believe they are justified with the risen God of Israel, by only having faith, apart from doing His righteousness.

Then the next verse connects with John 5:24, and follows on the heels of what the Lord taught in John 5;24, and it is this: John 5:25~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

Responded to this already.

 

[Ghada]

You simply have no idea what a parable is and what it is designed to do .

The understanding must still be hid from you.

Not hid. Rejected.

I reject turning any sure prophecy into only an 'as if' fable,

The thosudand year reign of Christ upon the earth is for a thousand years, that expries after the thousand years is fulfilled. Not 'as if' a thousand years.

We also know His millennium reign (1000 years) is upon the earth, else there would be no expiration date for it. The reign of Christ with His saints on the new earth is forever without and nevefr expires.

 

[Ghada]

Christ who worked in the Son of man is the ressurection power, the truth and life.

Jesus the Son of man is the Christ come in the flesh.

1Jo 4:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

]2Jo 1:7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

1Jo 2:22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

 

[Red Baker]

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts{11:17} Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? {11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is repentance unto salvation. It's the promise of salvation from old sinning with justification by new righteous works.

The gospel of salvation unto repentance is man's sinful religion, not God's pure religion.

Ghada, you have problem of following the content of my post (# 84)~so, now I must be careful not to wander off from the topic of this thread~

Understanding the The 1000 Year Millennium in Prophecy.​

Let me see what I can do, to steer us back to the topic. I will only say this~the gospel of Jesus Christ wherein the righteousness of God is revealed, can be summed up here:

Romans 3:21-25~"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

Romans 1:16,17~"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Repentance is not preaching the gospel of Christ, repentance is the fruit of one that God has given the free gift of life to, and where there is life, repentance will follow, by the new man that has been created within a elect child of God. Without first being born again, it would be impossible for any man to either believe, or repent, they are evidence of one that the Spirit has regenerated first.

In the above quoted scriptures, the gospel is only the power of God to BELIEVERS, not to those who are at enmity against God. To all others it is foolishness. You can only reveal the gospel truths from faith to faith! Romans 1:17. So, again, your post is making a moot point. Now let us go to Revelation 20 and discuss the scriptures.