What We Can't Know About God From Creation and the Only Way We Can Know It

[Arial]

Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them. because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that are made. So, there is no excuse.

God's eternal power and divine nature in the things that God has made. His creation is not neutral. It is always testifying to God's reality, power, and worthiness of worship.

His wrath is seen when that revelation is suppressed. His judicial response was to "give them over" (his wrath in action). He allows people to run the full course of their rebellion. Creation continually tells these truths about God.

As Christians we know that the way of redemption is not shown by the creation itself. What other attributes of God are we unable to see from creation that can only be revealed in Christ through our redemption?

 

[Josheb]

As Christians we know that the way of redemption is not shown by the creation itself.

I understand what the intent, and affirm the necessity of Christ, but I do not think that is wholly accurate. Decades of scientific research in the fields such as psychology, neurobiology, and medicine demonstrate the efficacy of forgiveness and its constituent elements (mercy, justice, compassion, etc.). Guilt, for example produces norepinephrine and cortisol, stress hormones that have both immediate and long-term adverse effect if left untreated. It inhibits the production to the "attachment" hormone, oxytocin., which is necessary for bonding and close, intimate relationships and has the paradoxical effect of increasing perceptions of guilt in cases of wronged relationships.

What other attributes of God are we unable to see from creation that can only be revealed in Christ through our redemption?

Timelessness. Who can fathom what is is like living extra-temporally?

 

[Arial]

One of the attributes of God that we cannot know from creation alone, but only fully through the incarnation of Jesus and his person and work, is God's covenantal relationality. That is. his nature as a personal, relational being who voluntarily binds himself to his creatures by oath, promise and fellowship.

We see shadows of it, most strongly with the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in the OT as the eternal plan of Redemption, itself a Covenant of Redemption within the Godhead, plays out in history. It reaches its aim with the arrival of the Redeemer and his work on the cross, with the New Covenant.

In this is also displayed his covenant faithfulness so that those in Christ through faith rest solidly on the certainty of the resurrection of the dead and a new heaven and new earth.

 

[makesends]

I understand what the intent, and affirm the necessity of Christ, but I do not think that is wholly accurate. Decades of scientific research in the fields such as psychology, neurobiology, and medicine demonstrate the efficacy of forgiveness and its constituent elements (mercy, justice, compassion, etc.). Guilt, for example produces norepinephrine and cortisol, stress hormones that have both immediate and long-term adverse effect if left untreated. It inhibits the production to the "attachment" hormone, oxytocin., which is necessary for bonding and close, intimate relationships and has the paradoxical effect of increasing perceptions of guilt in cases of wronged relationships.

Timelessness. Who can fathom what is is like living extra-temporally?

Modern physics/cosmology has people conjecturing on that, too!

I know when I was a kid, trying to fathom the vast expanses of the universe and the notion of infinity (I naturally assumed the universe ran infinitely distant), yet that it was like a plaything to infinite God, I gathered hints of his 'timelessness' so that when I first heard it described in the Narnia (as in times that had only to do with whatever realm one was occupying) it jumped right out at me that God doesn't occupy/is not limited by any of those realms.

As a very little kid I began to wonder just how anything exists, and later to conjecture on the nature of existence, dependent on God. The self-existence of God may be at least considered by the notion that the rest of reality could not come from nothing, and self-existence may hint at, if not outright imply timelessness.

 

[makesends]

One of the attributes of God that we cannot know from creation alone, but only fully through the incarnation of Jesus and his person and work, is God's covenantal relationality. That is. his nature as a personal, relational being who voluntarily binds himself to his creatures by oath, promise and fellowship.

We see shadows of it, most strongly with the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in the OT as the eternal plan of Redemption, itself a Covenant of Redemption within the Godhead, plays out in history. It reaches its aim with the arrival of the Redeemer and his work on the cross, with the New Covenant.

In this is also displayed his covenant faithfulness so that those in Christ through faith rest solidly on the certainty of the resurrection of the dead and a new heaven and new earth.

I think that there is a LOT about God that one doesn't know of rationally, that is nevertheless 'visible' through nature/ universe/ reality. When Romans 1 says they knew him —do we really know what that means? I've been arguing with people on CF about the moral responsibility of the unborn, and something my son once said when he could barely talk came to mind. He said that he had seen Jesus and talked with him, in his sleep. He said it so matter-of-factly that is was hard to think of it as just a dream, and certainly not imagination. His description had nothing to do with the clothing he saw in the pictures, and he didn't remember anything 'Jesus' told him. I'd be conjecturing to claim that in fact God does that to all rational creatures in their infancy, or even that it was indeed Jesus that he saw. But who knows what God has done in giving us the breath of life, or the sustaining of our existence?

 

[Josheb]

Modern physics/cosmology has people conjecturing on that, too!

A few years ago, a physicist named Carlo Rovelli wrote a book titled, "Seven Brief Lessons on Physics," in which he addressed time. There's an interview with him on NPR in which he also discusses time's relativity and the universe as a closed system. Nowadays the universe is still considered closed (limited) but the possibility there might be something on the other side of the outside is being considered. To my knowledge, however, it is not being considered to be entirely timeless because whatever exists must have matter and space and, therefore, time. It was once thought the atom was the smartest particle in the universe and then some bunch of fools split one of them open and a big bunch of stuff piled out, setting physics back a bazillion years. The good news was it gave everything something to look at. Then they found out some of those particle parts move faster than light, which can't possibly be the case because light is the fastest thing there is.

Rovelli likened time to a person floating in space being asked to move up or down, left or right, north or west, etc. Without some reference point and a means of making measurements it's impossible to know what up or north means. All those words are meaningless.

The fact is that we humans cannot escape thinking about the matter of time through geometry. What could/would exist without permanent (though malleable) form or singularity? (shrugs shoulders) What "we" know is that the logical necessity of "In the beginning God created the heavens and earth" means God exists external to and prior to time. That's a pretty bold statement, even for a bunch of illiterate desert-wandering nomads .

 

[Arial]

A few years ago, a physicist named Carlo Rovelli wrote a book titled, "Seven Brief Lessons on Physics," in which he addressed time. There's an interview with him on NPR in which he also discusses time's relativity and the universe as a closed system. Nowadays the universe is still considered closed (limited) but the possibility there might be something on the other side of the outside is being considered. To my knowledge, however, it is not being considered to be entirely timeless because whatever exists must have matter and space and, therefore, time. It was once thought the atom was the smartest particle in the universe and then some bunch of fools split one of them open and a big bunch of stuff piled out, setting physics back a bazillion years. The good news was it gave everything something to look at. Then they found out some of those particle parts move faster than light, which can't possibly be the case because light is the fastest thing there is.

Rovelli likened time to a person floating in space being asked to move up or down, left or right, north or west, etc. Without some reference point and a means of making measurements it's impossible to know what up or north means. All those words are meaningless.

The fact is that we humans cannot escape thinking about the matter of time through geometry. What could/would exist without permanent (though malleable) form or singularity? (shrugs shoulders) What "we" know is that the logical necessity of "In the beginning God created the heavens and earth" means God exists external to and prior to time. That's a pretty bold statement, even for a bunch of illiterate desert-wandering nomads .

This "illiterate" desert wandering nomad, a thousand years ago (metaphor for a long time ago, but the boundaries not named but years and years before I heard the voice of Christ and followed him) was laying out in the southern California desert on our five acres and a cabin, with my husband, looking at the night sky. Yes. a bit tricked out on LSD. I realized profoundly that there was not really any such thing as time. To me, then, it was a human construct to keep our lives ordered, although I did believe in the existence of an eternal God. I did not know him. but I knew he existed.

I pondered this while observing the heavens in the way one will in that condition. Keep in mind, it is the desert, nearest town 15 or more miles away and a very small town at that. The only light is the light coming from the starts themselves and they are very bright and their number unfathomable. I pondered eternity until I became so overwhelmed that I felt if I didn't stop, I would simply disappear so small and insignificant was I. Less than a speck. Less than a grain of sand on which I lay.

Which could be a cautionary tale (besides the one "Don't do drugs"). A cautionary tale on probing into the things of God that are beyond our finiteness, something Calvin cautioned against, trying to reach him in full understanding. "Mind blown!" Our minds, bound in the framework of time at God's ordaining and purpose, can know things about him if he tells us, but we cannot probe beyond the limits he has set.

 

[CrowCross]

This "illiterate" desert wandering nomad, a thousand years ago (metaphor for a long time ago, but the boundaries not named but years and years before I heard the voice of Christ and followed him) was laying out in the southern California desert on our five acres and a cabin, with my husband, looking at the night sky. Yes. a bit tricked out on LSD. I realized profoundly that there was not really any such thing as time. To me, then, it was a human construct to keep our lives ordered, although I did believe in the existence of an eternal God. I did not know him. but I knew he existed.

I pondered this while observing the heavens in the way one will in that condition. Keep in mind, it is the desert, nearest town 15 or more miles away and a very small town at that. The only light is the light coming from the starts themselves and they are very bright and their number unfathomable. I pondered eternity until I became so overwhelmed that I felt if I didn't stop, I would simply disappear so small and insignificant was I. Less than a speck. Less than a grain of sand on which I lay.

Which could be a cautionary tale (besides the one "Don't do drugs"). A cautionary tale on probing into the things of God that are beyond our finiteness, something Calvin cautioned against, trying to reach him in full understanding. "Mind blown!" Our minds, bound in the framework of time at God's ordaining and purpose, can know things about him if he tells us, but we cannot probe beyond the limits he has set.

I once heard an explanation about God and time...keep in mind this is only a simple way to explain it.

Picture a globe with the typical longitude and latitude lines on it. We are at the equator and have to stay on that longitude line...which represents our timeline.
If you draw longitude directly north from anywhere on the equator they meet at a single point on the northern most point of the globe.

This is where God is...so-to-speak...From that point in time God can look into any point in time.

 

[Josheb]

This "illiterate" desert wandering nomad, a thousand years ago (metaphor for a long time ago, but the boundaries not named but years and years before I heard the voice of Christ and followed him) was laying out in the southern California desert on our five acres and a cabin, with my husband, looking at the night sky. Yes. a bit tricked out on LSD. I realized profoundly that there was not really any such thing as time. To me, then, it was a human construct to keep our lives ordered, although I did believe in the existence of an eternal God. I did not know him. but I knew he existed.

I pondered this while observing the heavens in the way one will in that condition. Keep in mind, it is the desert, nearest town 15 or more miles away and a very small town at that. The only light is the light coming from the starts themselves and they are very bright and their number unfathomable. I pondered eternity until I became so overwhelmed that I felt if I didn't stop, I would simply disappear so small and insignificant was I. Less than a speck. Less than a grain of sand on which I lay.

Which could be a cautionary tale (besides the one "Don't do drugs"). A cautionary tale on probing into the things of God that are beyond our finiteness, something Calvin cautioned against, trying to reach him in full understanding. "Mind blown!" Our minds, bound in the framework of time at God's ordaining and purpose, can know things about him if he tells us, but we cannot probe beyond the limits he has set.

Yep.

However, to be fair, the interval between cause and effect has to be called something. "Time" is as good a label as anything. Maybe you and I can get a movement started to call it "gerflabbinklon." Or do you think a syllable (or two) should be dropped? And let's not forget revelation was revealed to be known and then understood. What we're talking about is that which has not been revealed but that which are understood as necessary conditions given what is revealed. I can know time exists because it has been revealed to exist, but I cannot know what timeless might be because that has not (yet?) been revealed. The logic of a creature stepping outside of creation turns on itself .

 

[Arial]

Yep.

However, to be fair, the interval between cause and effect has to be called something. "Time" is as good a label as anything. Maybe you and I can get a movement started to call it "gerflabbinklon." Or do you think a syllable (or two) should be dropped? And let's not forget revelation was revealed to be known and then understood. What we're talking about is that which has not been revealed but that which are understood as necessary conditions given what is revealed. I can know time exists because it has been revealed to exist, but I cannot know what timeless might be because that has not (yet?) been revealed. The logic of a creature stepping outside of creation turns on itself .

"Time" is fine as anything else would never catch on. Unless of course they began a progressive propaganda campaign, subtle but extremely effective, over----time, in the schools (starting in kindergarten) and media of all forms.

Yes, that is what I mean. What isn't revealed and is not accessible to process with the human mind. The Trinity is a good example. It is crystal clear (to those it has been revealed to, as it is revealed knowledge) and can be analyzed within scripture and put into human words as best as is possible. But our minds cannot fully grasp the how of it or imagine it because we have no reference point.

And I think maybe it was "timelessness" that I was seeing a reflection of when I was looking at that desert night sky---and had to look away. It struck me as about to be sucked into a void.

 

[Josheb]

And I think maybe it was "timelessness" that I was seeing a reflection of when I was looking at that desert night sky---and had to look away. It struck me as about to be sucked into a void.

Well.... LSD will do that sort of thing .

 

[makesends]

Yep.

However, to be fair, the interval between cause and effect has to be called something. "Time" is as good a label as anything. Maybe you and I can get a movement started to call it "gerflabbinklon." Or do you think a syllable (or two) should be dropped? And let's not forget revelation was revealed to be known and then understood. What we're talking about is that which has not been revealed but that which are understood as necessary conditions given what is revealed. I can know time exists because it has been revealed to exist, but I cannot know what timeless might be because that has not (yet?) been revealed. The logic of a creature stepping outside of creation turns on itself .

I think the nature of God makes the whole discussion pretty much, 'child's talk'.

My daddy had a way of making us kids think, without laying out for us how he got there to what he said. Even years later, I see the wisdom in his mentioning, concerning the speed of light or of anything else—space warping, wormholes, et al.— "what about the speed of thought?" In some philosophical constructs, God can be considered pure thought. (While I disagree that that notion does the job, it makes a point). The Simplicity of God doesn't need our parameters.