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Through one man, sin entered the world.

Yes, we all have the same skin and bones....

But, Adam didn't require salvation until he fell and developed a sin nature.
Jesus never sinned and required salvation.
Man..us...you and me... are now born with a sin nature and need God the Son to wash us with His shed blood.
Unchecked Copy Box
Heb 9:12 - Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

He obtained eternal redemption for himself by being raised from the dead and entering into the Most Holy Place.

Jesus was the forerunner into the Most Holy Place. Of whom all the other sons of God like he are to follow.
He was of the same flesh and blood as all the other children who cry out to the God who can save them from death. Just as Jesus cried out to God to save him.

Heb 5:7 - who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him fromdeath, and was heard because of His godly fear,
 
Are all desires sinful?
No. A desire to be saved is a good desire. A desire to be disobedient is a bad desire.
Adam desired to be disobedient. The desire gives birth to the sin. The desire is the father of the sin.
Shakespeare nailed it “the wish is father to the thought”
 
Well, it might help your cause if you could show some text where Adam is said to have different flesh than Jesus and the rest of man.
The scripture says there is one kind of flesh of man(adam) 1 Cor 15:39
Likewise, it would be great if you could show that anyone said Jesus didn't have the same flesh as man. And support your statements that indicate God created Adam with a nature to sin, and therefore Jesus was created (which you will also need to support with proper biblical hermeneutics and not presuppositions)with a nature to sin. Basing your whole concept on one thing---your definition of desire and scriptures that speak of desire post fall, will not do.

That is incorrect, sloppy, biblical hermeneutics.
 
No. A desire to be saved is a good desire. A desire to be disobedient is a bad desire.
Adam desired to be disobedient. The desire gives birth to the sin. The desire is the father of the sin.
Shakespeare nailed it “the wish is father to the thought”
We have already been around that mulberry bush. Doing so again is ad nauseum.
 
Unchecked Copy Box
Heb 9:12 - Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

He obtained eternal redemption for himself by being raised from the dead and entering into the Most Holy Place.

Jesus was the forerunner into the Most Holy Place. Of whom all the other sons of God like he are to follow.
He was of the same flesh and blood as all the other children who cry out to the God who can save them from death. Just as Jesus cried out to God to save him.

Heb 5:7 - who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him fromdeath, and was heard because of His godly fear,
Utter heresy that comes from believing that mankind is redeemed by a creature---on an assault of the person and work of Christ---a totally different Jesus than the Jesus who is the believers High Priest continually mediating for them with God, the one who sits on the very throne of grace and mercy. Grace and mercy come only from God and are only God's to give.
 
Utter heresy that comes from believing that mankind is redeemed by a creature---on an assault of the person and work of Christ---a totally different Jesus than the Jesus who is the believers High Priest continually mediating for them with God, the one who sits on the very throne of grace and mercy. Grace and mercy come only from God and are only God's to give.
There are different views of the atonement.
 
There are different views of the atonement.
Only one is right. And that is God's view. And it can be gleaned accurately from rightly handling the word of God.
 
You and others keep talking about the fall as if it were anything other than Adam sinning. There is no statement about the fall of the world anywhere in scripture.
It is true the Bible does not contain the exact phrase "the world fell into sin," but the premise of the "fall" is not speculation (the forming of a theory without evidence). 1 Timothy 2:14 plainly states Eve "fell" into transgression. Therefore, anyone who has sinned could be said to have "fallen" into transgression, or fallen into sin. There's nothing speculative about that; it is a reasonable and rational generalization based on something explicitly stated in scripture. Similarly, Romans 8:20-21 states the creation was unwillingly subjected to futility and needs to be set free from the slavery of corruption. We might ask ourselves, "What corruption?" since according to Genesis 1:31 God made the world good (and sinless) but that question is easily answered because the Bible repeatedly draws a parallel between sin and corruption. Peter states the world is corrupted and attributes the corruption of the world to "evil desires" (2 Peter 1:4). Very early on in scripture the Bible states, "God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth" (Gen, 6:12) and whether or not that corruption is attributed to sin or sinful humanity the fact is the entire world became corrupt. Notice also this is another verse that explicitly states the flesh had become corrupted.

The point being this is not speculation; it is inference.

Whether or not the corrupting effects of sin were instantaneous (following immediately due to Adam's disobedience) or gradual (resulting from the cumulative effect of every human sinning) the result is identical: a corrupted earth. Romans 5 tells us that through one man's disobedience sin entered the world. It entered the world, not (just) Adam, and not (just) the garden. Sin entered the world. So, again, we can point to scripture that states sin entered the entire world and the entire earth is corrupted, and the Bible attributes the entrance of sin into the world to human desires and one man's disobedience. Those are the stated facts of scripture, not speculation. They're not inference, either. The inference comes when we take the fact one man's disobedience caused sin to enter the world and we attribute that act to the subsequent death that Romans 5 states came (past tense) to all men because all sinned. The passage does not explicitly state Cain, Abel, Seth, or and other subsequently born human being became sinful because of that one man's disobedience. We generalize sin's entrance into the world and sin eventually corrupting both the entire earth and human flesh because of what is stated. We infer that because scripture has already stated sin corrupted the earth and all flesh. The corruption is not speculation. When scripture speaks of the whole of anything that, logically, includes all of the constituent elements of that whole thing. So, when the whole earth is corrupted that necessarily means, logically speaking, all the constituent components of the earth are corrupted. That would include humans (since there are no non-earthly humans). That is a deduction, not an inference, and definitely not speculation.

I will concede (for the moment) Genesis 6:5 contains a certain degree of hyperbole but, putting aside the hyperbole, the verse still plainly states the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. So, imagine what a child born into a sin-filled world in which every human intent and thought of the heart was only evil all the time. How long would it take for a pure, unadulterated, uncorrupted child to be affected by the abject corruption into which his birth immersed him? Therefore, when Psalm 51:5 states, "Behold, I was brought forth in guilt, and in sin my mother conceived me," we might read that to say it is an innocent, sinless child but that inference does not accomplish much because that child is immersed in an inherently corrupted (sinful) world to be raised by two (or more) sinfully dead and enslaved sinful parents. The second either parent pours a word of sin into that child that child has become corrupted. This is one of the reasons why the solution had to be a birth that was not of sinful will or sinful flesh. Those who receive Christ are given the right to become children of a different kind, children who are not born of the blood, the will of the flesh, or the will of man. They have the right to be born of the will of God. The blood, the will, and the flesh are (all three) problems to be solved, not the solution or the means of obtaining the solution.

All of this is attributed to the disobedience of one man, and that one man is Adam. If Adam hadn't disobeyed God, then sin would never have entered the world. If sin had never entered the world, then no one would be dead in sin. If Adam hadn't disobeyed God then he would not have become sinful, a sinner, or a sinful sinner. His flesh would never have become corrupt and sinful. His will would never have become corrupt or sinful. Had he never disobeyed God his behavior would not be sinful (this is axiomatic). All of the same holds true for Eve, too. Scripture plainly states she "fell" into transgression and became a sinner.

Therefore, there is an exegetical basis for using the word "fall," and saying there was a "fall" into sin in which the entire earth became corrupted by sin's entrance. I, personally, don't often use the word "fall" when discussing sin. I don't use "spiritual death," either. I don't use "dispensation," or "covenant of works," and many other doctrinal terms when the words of scripture serve best, either. Drives folks nuts. I try to use the language of scripture. I, therefore, fully embrace the basic point of your protest, but it won't go anywhere as long as why the term is used is avoided. It's not that inferences are inherently or automatically incorrect or because they are something to be avoided, because some inferences, those that are built on what is explicitly stated, are valid and veracious, while others are not. The use of inferential terms becomes unnecessary when using the language scripture uses. Everyone reads scripture inferentially to one degree or another. The question is whether or not and to what degree the inferences are exegetical versus eisegetical.

People are dead in transgression. Period. Nothing more needs to be added. What is sin? Sin is any missing of the target God has set for His created creatures, and in the case of humanity that target is perfection, righteousness, faith and faithfulness, and obedience; not just the last definition, obedience. Defining sin only as lawlessness is myopic and therefore unscriptural. And that is where the sin-is-only-lawlessness argument fails. The word "only" does not appear in 1 John 3:4. Any lawlessness is sin because sin is lawlessness, but sin is not only lawlessness. It is speculation to insert the word "only" into 1 John 3:4, not inference. It is speculation to inject volition into any verse where the word is not stated, and the context does not permit. It is, likewise, speculation to inject determinism into any verse where it isn't reported in word of context.



For the above reasons and based on the many verses cited above, the "fall" of the world into sin is not speculation; it is inference.
 
You and others keep talking about the fall as if it were anything other than Adam sinning. There is no statement about the fall of the world anywhere in scripture. You attack me for speculation, and then you do the same or more.
Observing facts in evidence is not an attack. In most cases when a person feels attacked it's because of an internal conflict, not an external one. Just because someone calls me a dunderhead does not mean I am actually a dunderhead. I don't like being called names but that doesn't mean I have to become defensive (or adversarial) in response. It also means leveling accusations of attack makes me an attacker 😯. One person says, "You're an X," and the other says, "No, you're Y," and the two have accomplished nothing. If, however, someone makes a factual statement, and that fact is found confrontational then it is not the messenger that is the problem. If I am, in fact, a dunderhead, then I don't like that but it's not the messenger that is the problem.

  • Through one man sin entered the world.
  • Death, through sin, has spread to all humans.
  • 1 John 3:4 does not say "only," so it is, therefore, completely incorrect to use that verse as the sole measure of sin. It's not personal.
  • The word "speculation" is incorrect given the facts in evidence. It should be replaced with "inference."
  • There exists a valid inferential affirmative case for what some call the "fall" of the world/humanity into sin.
  • No one is attacking you, and if they do then report the post rather than complain or post a response that's lawless, hypocritical, or self-indicting.

Perhaps it will help to refocus. This op asks a single, solitary, very simple question that can and should be answered with scripture because scripture answers the question. The question is, "Did this sin spread to all life or all men?" In other words, just because some Reform-minded poster asks that question does not mean the entire thread should be turned into an apologetic for volitionalism. Not every thread in the Soteriology board is a request for volitionalism or volitionalists to argue. Attempts at hijacking an op that way bring the attacks (real and perceived)! Think of it this way: Not every op by a Reformed-minded poster is bait, and if it is intended that way.... no one has to take the bait.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.

Death, through sin, spread to all men. It is, therefore, reasonable and rational to infer sin spread to all men because sin was the vehicle through which death spread to all men. It's logical inference, not speculation. The answer to the question asked in the op is, therefore, an undeniable, unequivocal, irrefutable, "Yes." The thread, therefore, should be a very short thread AND it should be a thread in which there is 100% uniform agreement with the answer scripture provides.

If and when the discussion turns to "How did sin spread to all men?" then posts like #11 and #12 may become appropriate. Any and all answer to the question of "How...?" must include the fact of "Through one man," and "by the transgression of the one." We should build from consensus and the first consensus upon which we should build is that of agreeing with scripture. Paul does not couch his narrative on each individual's thoughts, choices, or actions. He mentions others only once. Everything is predicated on "one man."
You and others.... You attack me.....
Everyone bad. You not bad. 🤨

When outnumbered..... breath 😉. We all know the terrain here. We're at our best when we form our case with well-rendered scripture, not when we feel put on the defensive. Big hug. Now....

back to the fray! 😁


(apologies for the length)
.
 
..................The death they experienced was that of being dead in sin (some call it "spiritual death"). Adam disobeyed God and instantaneously became dead in sin.
Spiritual death is not taught anywhere in Scripture.
Take it up with someone who thinks otherwise. I don't use the term.

And would you please remember my handle because I am tired of my posts being used selectively for the purpose of protesting things I don't believe.
 
Take it up with someone who thinks otherwise. I don't use the term.

And would you please remember my handle because I am tired of my posts being used selectively for the purpose of protesting things I don't believe.
Forgive me. After reading your post, it seemed contradictory to me. On the one hand you seemed to support “spiritual death” but on the other it sounded as if you didn’t. But I see that you were not supporting the idea of spiritual death.
I don’t either. It’s not Biblical.
 
Only one is right. And that is God's view. And it can be gleaned accurately from rightly handling the word of God.
I offered a wealth of scriptural support for my belief. I don’t expect anyone to agree with it.
 
Forgive me. After reading your post, it seemed contradictory to me. On the one hand you seemed to support “spiritual death” but on the other it sounded as if you didn’t. But I see that you were not supporting the idea of spiritual death.
I don’t either. It’s not Biblical.
You should start an op on that subject. I will gladly weigh in and I am confident many others will do so, too.
 
I offered a wealth of scriptural support for my belief. I don’t expect anyone to agree with it.
You gave no evidence of rightly handling the word of God. The assertion came first and then scriptures were selectively given as though they automatically carry the same meaning you attribute to them.

For example you say that certain scriptures in the epistles about desire being the cause of sin, means that Adam was created with sinful desires or he wouldn't have sinned. The epistles were written after the fall and pertain to what feeds sin in the already fallen man. They do not pertain or address the fall of Adam or imputed sin changing man from being not a sinner, into a sinner. Therefore, they cannot be used to make a claim concerning how God created Adam. That would have to come from the creation account itself.

There it says that all creation, including man, was good. Now if sin is not good (the absence of good) then how could it exist as part of the man that God created? If God created something that was not good by its very nature, how could it be called good?

Your dispute of course is not with imputed sin, it is whether or not mankind was created with a sinful nature. You say he was. And my extension you say that Jesus too was created and that he was created with a sinful nature.

You use as proof that this is so by more isolation of scripture referring to one God, God as Jesus' Father. The one who does not believe that Jesus was created but that he is both God incarnate and human flesh and blood, containing the human nature as created---sinless---and the divine nature of the Father---God---also believes that there is one God and in the incarnation, he is Jesus' Father.

Your view must ignore countless scriptures that proclaim Jesus is God or simply change their meaning by false accusations against the opposing view that are not even true of the opposing view. Or by repetition of the claim, or by gymnastics with language and translations. Saddest of all it completely anilates the glorious work of Jesus, of the atonement, the resurrection and all that follows. I would give you all the scriptural proof, but it has been done before, many times, and would bear no more fruit into your life than it has on those occasions. However if anyone is reading this as one who has not been privy to that evidence already given, I will gladly provide it.
 
There is, and I have given it to you but you simply say that you do not believe that is what it is saying. And that is done by presupposing already held beliefs onto the scripture. And those beliefs that interpret the scripture I will give, are based (by your own admission of how you arrive at them)on a worldly world view. By looking at the world (all created things and all natural events) and then interpreting the scripture accordingly. But there is much throughout the scriptures that contradict that view---starting with who God is as self revealed, even in the story of creation.

Romans 8:18-25 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Compare that with Gen 1:26-31; Is 11:4-9; Rev 21:1-7. And don't neglect those passages that say God owns the storms and directs their paths, and rules over all the earth and everything in it.

Neither the scriptures or I have ever said the world fell. It was subjected to futility. In the Romans passage it is translated from mataiotes which carries the various usages of vanity, emptiness, unreality, purposelessness, ineffectiveness, instability, frailty. In the context, though all are somewhat included to a degree and in a sense, instability and frailty are the most precisely accurate when we see the evil and destruction that affects our world, and that Paul speaks of, and what Scripture tells us will change about it when believers reach their final and eternal destination at the second coming of Christ.
Just really poor translation/interpretation. The very idea of anything but man waiting "with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God", is truly bazaar. Similarly for the creation being "subjected to futility not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God", is nothing short of abject lacking in reality. It isn't rational in any sense of metaphor.

And the final and eternal destination at the second coming of Christ will be the new earth and heaven following the complete destruction of the present one.
 
How many times can anyone read Romans 5:12 and not understand that death spread to all men because all men sinned and not because Adam sinned? Apparently without end!
How many times can anyone read Romans 5:12 and not understand all men sinned because Adam sinned and brought sin into the world?
No one sins because Adam sinned.
Got scripture for that, or shall we call that speculation?

The facts of scripture are...

  • Adam disobeyed God (he sinned).
  • As a consequence of Adam 's disobedience, sin entered the world.
  • Through sin death came.
  • Death came to all men.
  • Death came to all men through sin because all sinned.

ALL of it, not just one part or another, is predicated on Adam's act of disobedience (sin). How many times can anyone read Romans 5 and not understand there are no other men with death coming to them through sin if Adam hadn't sinned?
And God imputes Adam's sin to no one but Adam.
And this is where you and I may find some common ground between us and I part ways with my fellow federalists because the imputation of sin is not Adam's specific act of disobedience but that one minor agreement between you and I doesn't change the fact that entire Romans 12 passage is ALL predicated on the one man's act of disobedience. It's bad exegesis that cuts up the narrative and says only one third of one verse is definitive.

And this is all the more the case since Paul predicates the entire scenario on one man's disobedience and not the individual will of each subsequent sinner. There is absolutely no basis for volitionalism in the passage. It has to be eisegetically read into the text to exist. Even if we are to say each and every individual chose to sin and bring death upon themselves, we'd have to ask why such a thing would occur. How is it that not one single solitary human ever chose the opposite of disobedience? How is it there is a 100% fail rate among the entirety of humanity? How is it humanity, individually and collectively, is incapable of living a sinless life?

The volitionalist says there are 7 billion different explanations (each man is his own excuse). The monergist says there is one. The monergist points to the stated act upon which the stated cause is predicated: one man's disobedience. The volitionalist points to a third of a verse, ignoring all else that is also stated and adds volition to the text. Adam did not make me sin. Adam made it so I and everyone else were born corrupted into a sinful world in which we would inevitably, and without any other possible alternative, sin.

And nowadays we have observable proof it's in our genes. There used to be a case for rejecting the genetic basis for sin, but that era has come and gone. We now know the problem is not merely theological; it's real, documentable reality. It's time for all the volitionalists to update their theology and bring it into the 21st century and make it consistent with the facts of science. The genetics are real and genetic disease cannot be willed away.



Whatever else is said, the answer to this op's inquiry is "Yes, sin spread to all men." Sinning spread to all men, too. Failing to correctly discriminate the two is another of the many problems to be solved in volitionalist soteriology. We sin because we're sinful and we're sinful because we sin. The problem is reciprocal, not linear.
 
You gave no evidence of rightly handling the word of God. The assertion came first and then scriptures were selectively given as though they automatically carry the same meaning you attribute to them.

For example you say that certain scriptures in the epistles about desire being the cause of sin, means that Adam was created with sinful desires or he wouldn't have sinned. The epistles were written after the fall and pertain to what feeds sin in the already fallen man. They do not pertain or address the fall of Adam or imputed sin changing man from being not a sinner, into a sinner. Therefore, they cannot be used to make a claim concerning how God created Adam. That would have to come from the creation account itself.

There it says that all creation, including man, was good. Now if sin is not good (the absence of good) then how could it exist as part of the man that God created? If God created something that was not good by its very nature, how could it be called good?

Your dispute of course is not with imputed sin, it is whether or not mankind was created with a sinful nature. You say he was. And my extension you say that Jesus too was created and that he was created with a sinful nature.

You use as proof that this is so by more isolation of scripture referring to one God, God as Jesus' Father. The one who does not believe that Jesus was created but that he is both God incarnate and human flesh and blood, containing the human nature as created---sinless---and the divine nature of the Father---God---also believes that there is one God and in the incarnation, he is Jesus' Father.

Your view must ignore countless scriptures that proclaim Jesus is God or simply change their meaning by false accusations against the opposing view that are not even true of the opposing view. Or by repetition of the claim, or by gymnastics with language and translations. Saddest of all it completely anilates the glorious work of Jesus, of the atonement, the resurrection and all that follows. I would give you all the scriptural proof, but it has been done before, many times, and would bear no more fruit into your life than it has on those occasions. However if anyone is reading this as one who has not been privy to that evidence already given, I will gladly provide it.
It seems I have to clarify this over and over again. You keep misrepresenting what I say by conveniently leaving out the MAJOR point of the LAW.

You paraphrase my claim of Adam having been created with sinful flesh as if the LAW has nothing to do with it. You again failed to mention it.
If you’re going to state my claim, I sure would appreciate you getting it right.

Adam’s flesh became sinful with the introduction of the law.

Thank you

“It is because you don’t understand my words”
 
@JIM,

Let's try to take this one step at a time. Let's start with a definition of sin.

The word "sin," whether it be the Hebrew, Greek, or English means to miss the target. Yes? If so, then what is the target?

Perfection? Righteousness? Holiness? Obedience? Faith? Faithfulness? All six?
 
How many times can anyone read Romans 5:12 and not understand all men sinned because Adam sinned and brought sin into the world?

Got scripture for that, or shall we call that speculation?

The facts of scripture are...

  • Adam disobeyed God (he sinned).
  • As a consequence of Adam 's disobedience, sin entered the world.
  • Through sin death came.
  • Death came to all men.
  • Death came to all men through sin because all sinned.

ALL of it, not just one part or another, is predicated on Adam's act of disobedience (sin). How many times can anyone read Romans 5 and not understand there are no other men with death coming to them through sin if Adam hadn't sinned?

And this is where you and I may find some common ground between us and I part ways with my fellow federalists because the imputation of sin is not Adam's specific act of disobedience but that one minor agreement between you and I doesn't change the fact that entire Romans 12 passage is ALL predicated on the one man's act of disobedience. It's bad exegesis that cuts up the narrative and says only one third of one verse is definitive.

And this is all the more the case since Paul predicates the entire scenario on one man's disobedience and not the individual will of each subsequent sinner. There is absolutely no basis for volitionalism in the passage. It has to be eisegetically read into the text to exist. Even if we are to say each and every individual chose to sin and bring death upon themselves, we'd have to ask why such a thing would occur. How is it that not one single solitary human ever chose the opposite of disobedience? How is it there is a 100% fail rate among the entirety of humanity? How is it humanity, individually and collectively, is incapable of living a sinless life?

The volitionalist says there are 7 billion different explanations (each man is his own excuse). The monergist says there is one. The monergist points to the stated act upon which the stated cause is predicated: one man's disobedience. The volitionalist points to a third of a verse, ignoring all else that is also stated and adds volition to the text. Adam did not make me sin. Adam made it so I and everyone else were born corrupted into a sinful world in which we would inevitably, and without any other possible alternative, sin.

And nowadays we have observable proof it's in our genes. There used to be a case for rejecting the genetic basis for sin, but that era has come and gone. We now know the problem is not merely theological; it's real, documentable reality. It's time for all the volitionalists to update their theology and bring it into the 21st century and make it consistent with the facts of science. The genetics are real and genetic disease cannot be willed away.



Whatever else is said, the answer to this op's inquiry is "Yes, sin spread to all men." Sinning spread to all men, too. Failing to correctly discriminate the two is another of the many problems to be solved in volitionalist soteriology. We sin because we're sinful and we're sinful because we sin. The problem is reciprocal, not linear.
“Sin spread” ???
Doesn't it say “death spread”?

I sure it says death spread because all sinned.
I’m certain it does not say sin spread because all die.

Am I wrong?

Rom 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
 
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