The Trinity

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Red Baker,

You seem to give a strange assessment of what I believe concerning God's Holy Spirit. I consider that when God the Father wants to accomplish a special task that He does this by means of His Holy Spirit. Two examples, the inspiration of the Scriptures and the conception of Jesus in the womb of Mary.

The strangeness comes from your end~all I was doing was repeating your words. Much like your words here:

He does this by means of His Holy Spirit

Why not just say: All scriptures is given by the inspiration of God~or, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee?

It was you that said above:

as the "Holy Spirit" and ""the power of the Highest" are equated in a poetic parallelism

that they in effect deny God the Father, Jesus the Son of God and the Holy Spirit, God the Father's power.

It is strange, care to expound on this to clear up what exactly you mean concerning the Holy Ghost? The Holy Ghost/Spirit is the Creator of all things, he is God without qualifications. He is not a force that comes from God, or, a power used by the Father as you put it.....he IS God. He lives in eternity and with those who have a humble and contrite spirit.

Isaiah 57:15~"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

Do you include Gabriel in this "first time"?

Yes~

Luke 1:18–19,26 (KJV): 18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

God is a Spirit~from there we must understand what those verses cannot mean. Spirit do not have bodily features as flesh and blood does. Angels are also spirits ~ministering spirits for serving God's elect. How the Spirit God speaks to these spirits is unknown to us, but he does and they do his will perfectly with haste. They are in one sense always before his presence, since there's no place God is not there, no place.

1st Timothy 6:14-16~"That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

No man can see God in his Infinite glory not even angels, no one~yet, in the person of Jesus Christ we see God perfectly because he is the express image of who God is, the only difference is God is a Spirit and that will never change he will continue forever to live in eternity~yet we have him in a glorified body in the person Of JESUS CHRIST, who in his times will show who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings again Eleanor,

Yes, I reject your wrong doctrine as stated above. There is One God, the Father and Jesus is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

That places you outside orthodox Christianity and in heresy thereof.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker and Eleanor,

The strangeness comes from your end~all I was doing was repeating your words. Much like your words here:

I consider that when God the Father wants to accomplish a special task that He does this by means of His Holy Spirit. Two examples, the inspiration of the Scriptures and the conception of Jesus in the womb of Mary.

I have no further words to add to this, as I consider that the role here of God's Holy Spirit is evident.

When did the angels see God for the first time? When the Word, which was God, was manifest in the flesh!.

Do you include Gabriel in this "first time"?

Yes~

1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV): 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I suggest that "seen of angels" may refer to two incidents. The two Angels at his resurrection and the many Angels that accompanied Jesus to heaven and the Throne of God after he ascended from the Mount of Olives.

That places you outside orthodox Christianity and in heresy thereof.

Actually, such an assessment by a Trinitarian gives me a warm feeling that I must be on the right path, or attempting to go in the right direction. Orthodox and orthodox Christianity persecuted the faithful over many Centuries, but I will rest now in hope of God's judgement when Jesus returns, not man's.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Red Baker and Eleanor,


I have no further words to add to this, as I consider that the role here of God's Holy Spirit is evident.

Trevor, I gave you a perfect opportunity to explain your words, just in case you were not expressing it very clearly. You did at least answer my question concerning your understanding/teachings concerning the Holy Spirit/Ghost ( knowing you folk stay away from using Ghost since that makes him a Being ) being the power/outlet of as you put it~the Father.

I have no further words to add to this

Means to me ...the more you say, the more we can see just as far you folks ( Christadelphian ) are from the truth.

1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV): 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I suggest that "seen of angels" may refer to two incidents. The two Angels at his resurrection and the many Angels that accompanied Jesus to heaven and the Throne of God after he ascended from the Mount of Olives.

Your suggestions does not prove anything~the only thing it does prove, is that you truly do not understand the mystery of the Godhead. Even using the scriptures I gave to you should have caused you to see that God was indeed manifest in the flesh, in the person of Jesus Christ, which person the angles saw for the first time ~ God, in a body of flesh and blood. As I said above, Jesus is the express image of God by the spirit of holiness, and every other fruit of the Spirit of God, he lived all of them in perfection to the law of God..... in thoughts, words, and deeds~ from conception to death. He was indeed the Son of God, making him equal to God.

Actually, such an assessment by a Trinitarian gives me a warm feeling that I must be on the right path, or attempting to go in the right direction.

Warm feelings can be very deceitful! As a matter of truth, feelings of any kind are so misleading and should never be considered an evidence of having truth. While I agree......

Orthodox and orthodox Christianity persecuted the faithful over many Centuries

We must totally trust the scriptures above so-called evangelical/Orthodox Christianity~yet, we also on the other hand must always consider if our different position is according to the testimony of God or that pride is leading us thinking we see something other great men did not see. Faith, humility and prayer and living by the the scriptures alone will save us and direct us into the truth.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker,

knowing you folk stay away from using Ghost since that makes him a Being

You surprise me time and time again with some of your comments and conclusions. I never guessed that particular "spin" on the word "Ghost". I always associate "Ghost" to haunted houses and early morning mists and superstitious people. The Greek and Hebrew words for "Spirit" and "spirit" are the same word occasionally translated "Ghost" in the KJV. I suggest that this is one area where the KJV is deficient or archaic

Means to me ...the more you say, the more we can see just as far you folks ( Christadelphian ) are from the truth.

My impression of some of your ideas make you closer to a cult than many mainstream Protestants. I should imagine that you consider that most of what you write and what you quote from your speakers in your fellowship is "Spirit Inspired or Guided" and that you cannot ever see the need to admit that you are wrong on some ideas. I define a cult as a group with one or a few prominent members who preach strange teachings and most members accept these teachings without any real questioning or personal Bible study.

Your suggestions does not prove anything~the only thing it does prove, is that you truly do not understand the mystery of the Godhead.

I prefer my belief that there is One God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God in preference to your "Mystery".

Kind regards
Trevor
.

 

[makesends]

Actually, such an assessment by a Trinitarian gives me a warm feeling that I must be on the right path, or attempting to go in the right direction. Orthodox and orthodox Christianity persecuted the faithful over many Centuries, but I will rest now in hope of God's judgement when Jesus returns, not man's.

Orthodoxy is a reference to doctrine, not to simply whatever was practiced for a while. Your comment is irrelevant as to whether something being contrary to Orthodoxy renders it false and/or heresy. Orthodoxy does not persecute the faithful. Orthodoxy is reliable, though the Word of God does obviously trump it.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings makesends,

Orthodoxy is a reference to doctrine, not to simply whatever was practiced for a while. ....Orthodoxy does not persecute the faithful.

The reason why "Orthodoxy" does not any longer persecute the faithful is that their power to persecute has been mainly taken away from them in these modern times. Compare such periods known as the Spanish Inquisition and when the RCC persecuted the Huguenots, mainly but not all French Calvinists. Please note that @Eleanor distinguishes between Orthodoxy and orthodoxy. She may exclude the RCC from her definition of "orthodoxy". Who do you include in "Orthodoxy". Does "Reformed" indicate some form of Calvinism? They also persecuted the faithful. One example was their treatment of a prominent non-Trinitarian. Perhaps I am being a little expressive here because both @Eleanor and @Red Baker like to label my beliefs as "heresy" and such a label reminds me of some of those dark periods, when the RCC had dominance for the 1260 years of Daniel 7, where the RCC persecuted the "saints of the Most High" Daniel 7:25.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Bornfield]

A question that has been on my mind about the Trinity doctrine


why is Yahashua changing / altering and modifying and adjusting / morphing and lowering and decreasing and reducing himself -

why is Yahashua becoming empty / void and vacant of existing as equally god and suddenly
suddenly changing himself to become a servant of god

why is Yahashua suddenly changed and altered to the point that he no longer exists to be equal to god.

but himself, he has suddenly became empty / changed altered become void of equality to god - changing into something different from that which he pre existed = - changing into becoming a servant

he is changed and lowered into - the morph of a servant, receiving in the likeness of mankind, he became.

if – Yahashua lowered himself - emptied himself - he changed and altered himself - becoming a servant of god, why - would he be lowering himself - why would he be altering and changing himself to be changed into a servant of god

and lesser than god – changing to becoming a servant and obedient to the father

IF THIS IS WHO AND WHAT TRINITARIANS CLAIM - JESUS ALREADY WAS ?

co - eternally _ co - equally

according to Trinitarian faith

please, explain in scriptures where Jesus the only born son of god emptied himself by coming down from heaven as the pre existing son of God who pre-existed as a paradox eternally and equally
why has Trinitarian son - suddenly became empty / changed altered become void of equality to god - changing into something different from that which he pre existed = - changing into becoming a servant of God

IF THIS IS WHO AND WHAT TRINITARIANS CLAIM - JESUS ALREADY WAS ?

meaning ?

How then, is he Co - Eternal Son or as Co - Equal Son or as Co - Omnipresent Son ?

if he goes up and down - progressing up and down and then up again, moving through stages of power and glory - equality and is changing his status of rank - loosing and regaining his glory - and does not have the power or ability or right to maintain his glory eternally ?

 

[Fred]

An example to us of His perfect humility.

We should also be humble.

 

[Bornfield]

.
Hey there Fred. thanks for replying, much appreciated.

ok, I understand, you are explaining that Yahashua showed humans how to be humble by himself being humble to the father and setting forth this example for believers to follow.

meanwhile, the demand of 𝔱rinity doctrine expresses as fact that before Yahashua was born

☞ that Yahashua 𝔞lready existing humble to father. - 𝔢ternal, humble, Co equal trinitarian God / son ↩
☞ that Yahashua was 𝔞lready submissive to father. - 𝔢ternal, submissive Co equal trinitarian God / son ↩
☞ that Yahashua was 𝔞lready existing sitting on the right hand side of father. - 𝔢ternally, to the right of father - Co equal - God the son

this is his Co - eternal status - rank - station - position - reputation - existence - in the Godhead ↩​

☞ that Yahashua was 𝔞lready existing under the command of the superior father - - eternally, the father was superior

The Father is supreme in authority among the Persons of the Godhead ↩

☞ that Yahashua was 𝔞lready the second in command - the chain of command is, Father who commands 𝔰on whom is given authority to command Spirit ↩
​

☞ that Yahashua 𝔞lready existed in the likeness of men: and already existed - in the FORM of God - as a FORM of God ↩

this is whom the trinitarian Jesus has always been, CO - ETERALLY ✣ CO - EQUALLY ✣


But yet with the birth of Trinitarian Yahashua​

Php 2:7 ✣ says that Yahashua TOOK UPON himself the FORM / morph of a servant, and was MADE / CREATED in the likeness of men:

:8 ✣ says that And being FOUND in fashion as a MAN , he humbled himself, and became obedient

2:9 ✣ Wherefore God also hath highly EXALTED / him, and GIVEN him a name which is above every name:

suddenly Yahashua is GIVEN High-rank ✒ GIVEN dignity ✒ GIVEN exaltation ✒ GIVEN a promotion ✒
elevated -

suddenly all of this has been given to Trinitarian Yahashua - as if he had never existed with high-rank, dignity, exaltation and suddenly GIVEN a name that is above every other name in heaven and earth

 

[Bornfield]

.
In conclusion if I may please ask Trinitarians

𝔦𝔣 Trinitarian Jesus was already CO - ETERNAL ✣ CO - EQUAL ✣ why - why is he suddenly being GIVEN this equality with the father if this is something he already possesses and exists as

𝔦𝔣 Trinitarian Jesus was already humble to father ☞ submissive to father ☞ sitting on the right hand side of father. - 𝔢ternally, on the right of father

already ☞ second in command - Father commands 𝔰on

☞ 𝔞lready existed in the likeness of men: and already existed

✣ already existing himself the FORM / morph of a servant, and ALREADY existing as eternally MADE / CREATED in the likeness of men:

the eternal son / the man / God


why is Trinitarian Jesus being given something he eternally already has - - as CO - ETERNAL ✣ CO - EQUAL ✣

why is Trinitarian Jesus adapting, changing, morphing, forming, being made lower, humbled, submissive, obedient and CHANGING HIS ATTITUDE - changing his REPUTATION, STATUS, RANK - being suddenly made, fashioned SUDDENLY FINDING HIMSELF made as the form of a man - god - with human flesh.

, - - as CO - ETERNAL ✣ CO - EQUAL ✣

if Trinitarians claim that this is always what and who the Trinitarian Jesus had always existed as and had eternally possessed
God also hath highly EXALTED / him, and GIVEN him a name which is above every name:

but this is who and what Trinitarians claim Jesus already had been CO - ETERNALLY ✣ CO - EQUALLY ✣

and where did Jesus previously sit in heaven before he was promoted and moved in his seating order and seating arrangement - the father in moving and relocating Jesus ? ? ?

In the Trinity translation - Jesus was not ON the right hand of God before Jesus is being commanded to be re- positioned, re - located, moved from one position of status and rank of authority, he is being promoted - progressing and changing his seating order - moving up in rank ?

The Trinitarian Translation presents Jesus as being promoted, re - positioned, re - located and moving, changing the placement and status of his position from one existing position to be re located and placed and moved to another higher position, a higher status - rank / authority

- was Jesus not sitting ON the right hand of God before God re- located him there ? ! ↩​

these 3 simple trinitarian questions are questions that I have never been able to receive an answer from Trinitarians, based upon their translations / the scriptures themselves. This is somewhat why that I do not believe in the Trinity doctrine ↩

there are simply no manuscripts to explain simple answers nor these questions - the Trinitarian Faith System simply is not consistent nor honest - to believe something that is in complete contradiction and adverse unto itself. - like a circular reasoning that eternally encloses in upon itself in continual loop repeating the same step and then back again

is this not one step theology that turns in upon itself, lurching - spinning around back to its original position - never moving beyond a single step in reason and truth ?

 

[Mr GLee]

1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV): 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I suggest that "seen of angels" may refer to two incidents. The two Angels at his resurrection and the many Angels that accompanied Jesus to heaven and the Throne of God after he ascended from the Mount of Olives.

The word angel is a fake word coined much later than the last revelation in the book of prophecy. The Bible.

The Greek Angelous translated in English in "messenger" not angel.

How beautiful are the feet of the apostles shod with the gospel of Christ.

They saw apostles preaching the gospel.

Actually, such an assessment by a Trinitarian gives me a warm feeling that I must be on the right path, or attempting to go in the right direction. Orthodox and orthodox Christianity persecuted the faithful over many Centuries, but I will rest now in hope of God's judgement when Jesus returns, not man's.

Two as a law of Christ's faith is the one witness God spoke. The eternal unseen Holy Father and the Son of man the temporal seen ... .Three or more a crowd.

Both working as one. . #1 the law "let there be". and #2 the testimony seen was God good. The just and justifier. The Alpha and omega.

Entered the Ark two by two. the faith principle

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty

 

[Fred]

.
In conclusion if I may please ask Trinitarians

𝔦𝔣 Trinitarian Jesus was already CO - ETERNAL ✣ CO - EQUAL ✣ why - why is he suddenly being GIVEN this equality with the father if this is something he already possesses and exists as

𝔦𝔣 Trinitarian Jesus was already humble to father ☞ submissive to father ☞ sitting on the right hand side of father. - 𝔢ternally, on the right of father

already ☞ second in command - Father commands 𝔰on

☞ 𝔞lready existed in the likeness of men: and already existed

✣ already existing himself the FORM / morph of a servant, and ALREADY existing as eternally MADE / CREATED in the likeness of men:

the eternal son / the man / God


why is Trinitarian Jesus being given something he eternally already has - - as CO - ETERNAL ✣ CO - EQUAL ✣

why is Trinitarian Jesus adapting, changing, morphing, forming, being made lower, humbled, submissive, obedient and CHANGING HIS ATTITUDE - changing his REPUTATION, STATUS, RANK - being suddenly made, fashioned SUDDENLY FINDING HIMSELF made as the form of a man - god - with human flesh.

, - - as CO - ETERNAL ✣ CO - EQUAL ✣

if Trinitarians claim that this is always what and who the Trinitarian Jesus had always existed as and had eternally possessed
God also hath highly EXALTED / him, and GIVEN him a name which is above every name:

but this is who and what Trinitarians claim Jesus already had been CO - ETERNALLY ✣ CO - EQUALLY ✣

and where did Jesus previously sit in heaven before he was promoted and moved in his seating order and seating arrangement - the father in moving and relocating Jesus ? ? ?

In the Trinity translation - Jesus was not ON the right hand of God before Jesus is being commanded to be re- positioned, re - located, moved from one position of status and rank of authority, he is being promoted - progressing and changing his seating order - moving up in rank ?

The Trinitarian Translation presents Jesus as being promoted, re - positioned, re - located and moving, changing the placement and status of his position from one existing position to be re located and placed and moved to another higher position, a higher status - rank / authority

- was Jesus not sitting ON the right hand of God before God re- located him there ? ! ↩​

these 3 simple trinitarian questions are questions that I have never been able to receive an answer from Trinitarians, based upon their translations / the scriptures themselves. This is somewhat why that I do not believe in the Trinity doctrine ↩

there are simply no manuscripts to explain simple answers nor these questions - the Trinitarian Faith System simply is not consistent nor honest - to believe something that is in complete contradiction and adverse unto itself. - like a circular reasoning that eternally encloses in upon itself in continual loop repeating the same step and then back again

is this not one step theology that turns in upon itself, lurching - spinning around back to its original position - never moving beyond a single step in reason and truth ?

Hi Bornfield,

Please list the three questions. It's a little bit confusing following your posts. I think I can answer them if you did it this way.

 

[Bornfield]

Of course.

the questions were regarding the fact that the Trinity teaches that the Co Eternal / Co Equal, pre- exiting eternal Son Of God / Jesus is coming down from heaven

the three questions I was asking were concerning the Trinitarian Jesus existing as, CO - ETERNAL ✣ CO - EQUAL ✣ trinity

God - Man - Jesus eternally, the Son of God with human flesh - God the Son / Man / Christ of the Trinity

questions

1. why - why is he suddenly being promoted, re - positioned, re - located and moving upward in rank and power

The Father is changing and elevating the status of his position from one LOWER position to be ELEVATED and re located and placed and moved to another higher position, a higher status - rank / authority. Jesus us being GIVEN an equality with the father

but why does the Trinity demand that all of this is something he already possesses and exists as ?

and

𝔦𝔣 Trinitarian Jesus was already humble to father ☞ submissive to father ☞ sitting on the right hand side of father. - 𝔢ternally, on the right of father, already ☞ second in command - the Father commands the 𝔰on.... Jesus ☞ 𝔞lready existed in the likeness of men: and already existed as a MAN / GOD in FORM / morph of a servant, .....and ALREADY existing as eternally MADE / CREATED in the likeness of men:

2. why is Trinitarian Jesus being given something he eternally already has or becoming something he already existed as ?


and


3. and where did Jesus previously sit in heaven before he was promoted and moved up in his seating order and seating arrangement - the father in moving and relocating Jesus to be promoted, elevated uplifted and moved to the new higher position of authority and closer to equality with the father ?

 

[Fred]

1. why - why is he suddenly being promoted, re - positioned, re - located and moving upward in rank and power

The Father is changing and elevating the status of his position from one LOWER position to be ELEVATED and re located and placed and moved to another higher position, a higher status - rank / authority. Jesus us being GIVEN an equality with the father

but why does the Trinity demand that all of this is something he already possesses and exists as ?

I don't see how this would disprove the Trinity.
Jesus has always been God.
He took on the form of a slave.

2. why is Trinitarian Jesus being given something he eternally already has or becoming something he already existed as ?

He didn't always fully employ the use of His attributes.
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): Elsewhere, however, it is said of the Redeemer during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power and appeared in lowliness and humility, Mt. 11:29; 12:18-21; 2 C. 8:9; Phil. 2:5-8...cf. the temptation of Jesus, Mt. 4:8 f. par. Lk. 4:5 f. Thus, when the full power of Jesus is occasionally mentioned during the time of His humiliation, it is merely a proleptic fact. A new situation is brought into being with the crucifixion and resurrection. The Chosen One seizes the full power which He had from the beginning of the world. Mt. 28:18 (5:895, All, B. Reicke).

3. and where did Jesus previously sit in heaven before he was promoted and moved up in his seating order and seating arrangement - the father in moving and relocating Jesus to be promoted, elevated uplifted and moved to the new higher position of authority and closer to equality with the father ?

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: a most glorious condition, most exalted state; a. of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth: Lk. 24.26; Jn. 17:5 (where he is said to have been in the same condition before his incarnation, and even before the beginning of the world) (doxa, page 156).

 

[Bornfield]

.
Thank you so very much, dear " Fred " for responding to my 3 questions

You are the very first Trinitarian believer to have had time or interest to reply with a response,
in addressing these questions that I propose,

and for the last five years I have diligently asked these 3 questions to nearly fifty different forums across the vast internet in multiple forums where Trinitarians are propagating and preaching and explaining their Trinitarian Faith System

i will soon post an answer to what you proposed as answers - - - as you quoted from Theological Dictionaries and Lexicons

- and I was a hopeful and wishful that you would reply with answers that are based upon the scriptures - but with the answer that I will soon will post to your reply and answers you will fully understand why,, beloved Trinitarians such yourself are truly incapable and unable to provide scriptures for to honestly answer these important questions - which I have asked every Trinitarian whom I can possible contact.

 

[Fred]

.
Thank you so very much, dear " Fred " for responding to my 3 questions

You're welcome.

- and I was a hopeful and wishful that you would reply with answers that are based upon the scriptures -

The quotes I gave had the Scriptures cited in them.

but with the answer that I will soon will post to your reply and answers you will fully understand why,, beloved Trinitarians such yourself are truly incapable and unable to provide scriptures for to honestly answer these important questions

See my response above.

- which I have asked every Trinitarian whom I can possible contact.

Just so I have a better understanding of what you believe...can you please tell me?
From what you have affirmed I see you do not believe in the Trinity.
Are you a Modalist or something similar?
Do you believe Jesus is God?
Do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?

Those are my 4 questions (for now) for you.

 

[Bornfield]

i will come back to your questions you have just now asked

every single word that you write to me is of most importance - ill respond to what you just posted to me as an important question

you can reply later after reading my answer that will come in multiple partitions - or can reply immediately or how you wish

but I will post my answer here now, and I will take your important question and will reply to this too
yes of course

 

[Bornfield]

Fred

You have answered my question from a true and pure Trinitarian perspective - your answer is a most perfect Trinitarian response.- You represented the Trinitarian Faith System - with exact precision

I understood everything you explained as you quoted exactly, perfectly from - Theological Dictionaries and Lexicons
BUT LET’S PLEASE RETURN BACK TO THE SCRIUPTURES FOR A MOMENT - if you will be permitted or okayed


My answer is simply to you from a Trinitarian perspective - based on the Trinitarian Translation.-
pertaining to Trinitarian God

dearest Fred
Please answer

If Christ is to sit at the Right " Hand " Of The Throne -

where do Trinitarians believe that Jesus will sitting after His enemies are His footstool ?
we presume the Trinitarian Father is saying in scripture to the Trinitarian Son - Jesus

Mat 5:35 - Mat 22:44 - Mar 12:36 - Luk 20:42 - Luk 20:43 - Act 2:34 - Act 7:49 - Heb 1:13 - Heb 10:13
SIT ON MY RIGHT HAND, TILL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL.

BUT - Where did Trinitarian Son - Jesus exist before this and where will he exist after this.

If he is given this NEW position - - UNTIL A CERTAIN PURPOSE HAS BEEN FULFILLED ?

If Trinitarian Son, he was to be there ‘ until ‘ such a such a time,

this means he was not always there, and after SUCH AND SUCH A TIME passes - where will he again return regarding his original place ?

or even his next - RANK, POSITION, POWER, REPUTATION, STATUS, LEVEL, EVALUATION - his next seating arrangement in the heavens

IF _ - _ The Trinitarian Translation says, “that”” - THE TRINITARIAN FATHER SAYS,, - JESUS IS TO DWELL ON MY RIGHT HAND, - UNTIL such and such a time. = - - - -

SIT HERE - UNTIL - THIS TIME COMES,, UNTIL SUCH AND SUCH A TIME,, Jesus will be seated
- ON MY RIGHT HAND,

or if he was to be there ‘ until ‘ such a such and such a time,

THIS MEANS, HE WAS NOT ALWAYS THERE - - IN A TRINITY
The Trinitarian Father is saying to Trinitarian Son --- Jesus
COMMANDING JESUS - - “” Move your seating arrangement, “”””

COMMANDING JESUS - JESUS - you are commanded to bring your throne over here and - move from where you currently are seated and come over here to the right hand side of me and sit down here on my right hand side -
Sit here on my right hand side……………………

And also, JESUS ……….. you, sit here - ‘ until ‘ such a such a time,

AND JESUS - - - YOU ARE TO SIT HERE, UNTIL / UNTIL YOUR ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL.

IN HEAVEN - ………… Trinitarian Father is commanding Trinitarian Jesus to move, relocate and change his seating position of status, rank, power and authority and very existence in the universe.

This means that Trinitarian Jesus was not always seated on the right hand of the father and that after such and such a time he will no longer be remaining _ seated / existing - - - on the right hand of the Trinitarian father.

IN CONCLUSION

Trinitarians theologically claim that Trinitarian Jesus is returning back to where he originally existed from - after his resurrection
Using Dictionaries and Lexicons - but Trinitarians truly cannot explain this position from their Trinitarian Translations

but because from the Trinitarian Translation, it says ,,,,,,,,,, - 1Pe 3

1Pe 3:22 Jesus is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
This is a contradiction and an untruthful claim that is made by Trinitarians

Because - -- TRINITARIAN JESUS IS NOT RETURNING TO THE SAME CONDITION AND SAME CONDITION AND SAME POSITION AND STATUS AND RANK THAT HE HELD BEFORE HIS INCARNATION, NOR - - - EVEN BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD)

If Trinitarian Father is commanding Trinitarian Jesus to sit / dwell on his right hand side and commanding Trinitarian Jesus to sit / dwell on his right hand side UNTILL - such and such a time - -

this means that Trinitarian Jesus was not in the SAME CONDITION AND SAME POSITION AND STATUS AND RANK THAT HE HELD BEFORE HIS INCARNATION….HE WAS NOT SITTING / DWELLING ON THE RIGHT HAND SIDE OF HIS FATHER - BEFORE HIS INCARNATION….

Jesus is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Why is father commanding JESUS to come over with his Trinitarian throne and sit on his right hand side - so that angels and authorities and powers will be made subject unto him. ?

 

[Bornfield]

FRED
We can we go directly to the Bible Translation itself and see …………………………..

………………………….. that the Protestant Trinitarian Translation does NOT present a Jesus whom THAT is FOREVER SETTING DOWN AT or ON THE RIGHT OF GOD. !
please notice - K.J.V Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever,,, sat down ON the right hand of God;

here - Jesus, according to the K.J.V Translation is not said to be forever sitting down ON the right hand of God; it says, he had offered one sacrifice for sins FOREVER ,,, sat down ON the right hand of God, it is not saying that Jesus is forever sat on the right hand of God.
If you notice, the difference between the - Protestant K.J.V and the Catholic D.R.B.
K.J.V - Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever,,,, sat down on the right hand of God;


D.R.B. - Heb 10:12 But this man, offering one sacrifice for sins,,,,, for ever sitteth on the right hand of God,

Here is the difference
D.R.B. - one sacrifice for sins,,,,, - - - for ever sitteth on the right hand
K.J.V - offered one sacrifice for sins for ever,,,, - - - - sat down on the right hand

followed by verse :13 FROM HENCEFORTH EXPECTING UNTILL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL.

So this is not forever sitting on the right hand of God

in the Catholic D.R.B. - the sacrifice for sins is mentioned but they use a comma marking a punctuation to say that he
FOREVER sitteth -

in the Protestant K.J.V - the sacrifice for sins is FOREVER followed by a comma marking a punctuation to say that the one sacrifice for sins is FOREVER, [ comma punctuation mark ] - then he sat down on the right hand

Mar 12:36 Sit ON my right hand, UNTIL I make thy enemies thy footstool.
Luk 20:42 Sit thou ON my right hand, - UNTIL I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Act 2:34 Sit thou ON my right hand, UNTIL I make thy foes thy footstool.
Heb 1:13 Sit ON my right hand, UNTIL I make thine enemies thy footstool?

The Greek word UNTIL is “ ἕως - heōs - heh'-oce “ - meaning = A continuance until (of time and place): - (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, - up to a while - a duration of a limited time.
In the Trinity TRANSLATION - Jesus was not ON the right hand of God before Jesus is being commanded to be re- positioned, re - located, moved from one position of status and rank of authority progressing and changing his seating order
The Trinitarian Translation presents Jesus as being re - positioned, re - located and moving, changing the placement and status of his position from one existing position to be re located and placed and moved to another position and higher status -
Jesus - was not sitting ON the right hand of God before God located him there ! !

Why are we to believe the Trinitarian teaching that God did not really mean when he said that he would be - ON the right hand of God - UNTLL I make thine enemies thy footstool


Also

Please notice the Trinitarian Translation in Joh 17:5

:5 - And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

according to the Trinitarian Translation - Jesus , here - had Glory with the father BEFORE THE WORLD WAS CREATED - and after the creation he suddenly lost all of his glory, Trinitarians - INVENT THE IDEA - that the glory that Jesus had, with the father was - ONLY WITH JESUS BEFORE THAT THE WORLD WAS CREATED. - -

- and after the creation - HE SUDDENLY LOST ALL OF THIS GLORY ?

in Trinitarian theology, Jesus had a “ glory “ with the Father before the world was created, THEN, HE SUDDENLY LOST ALL OF THIS GLORY - IMMEDIATELY after the world was created and then came to be born on earth –

THEN HE RESURRECTS AND ASCENDS TO HEAVEN TO AGAIN RECEIVE AGAIN THE SAME GLORY " THAT HE HAD LOST, " FOR APROX 4000 YEARS - BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE EARTH.

The Trinitarian translation says - Joh 17:5 . . . . .. . Jesus is asking the Father to glorify him now with - the GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. –