The Trinity

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fred,

You are dodging what I wrote about in my previous post.
Please try again.

You are avoiding what the OT and NT Scriptures teach and are trying to impose your Trinitarian ideas. Perhaps you do not understand these OT concepts and language, or refuse to accept them, or cannot see clearly as you have drunk too much of the wine of Babylon which includes the Athanasian Creed.

Jesus is a unique being. Jesus was made a little lower than Elohim. Elohim has now exalted Jesus above Elohim. Jesus was made a little lower than the Angels (Elohim) Psalm 8:5. He has now been exalted above the Angels (Elohim) Hebrews 1:7-9,13-14. He is above the status and position of the Judges (Elohim) in Israel Exodus 21:6, 22:8-9. He has the position and status of Elohim and is called Elohim by David and he is thus David's God (Elohim) Psalm 45:6-7 and David's Lord (Adon) Psalm 110:1, he is Thomas' Lord and God John 20:28, and my Lord and God.

Jesus is of lesser to the One God, Yahweh, God the Father who Jesus addresses as "Father, Lord of heaven and earth" Matthew 11:25 and as such Yahweh is Jesus' God (Elohim):
Psalm 45:6-7 (KJV): 6 Thy throne, O God (Elohim) is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God (Elohim, thy Elohim), hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Only Yahweh has the power to exalt Jesus. The faithful are Jesus' fellows, and we bow the knee to him because the One God, the Father has exalted Jesus who has the position and status of Elohim, and also bears the Name which is above every name Philippians 2:9-11 to the glory of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

Greetings again Fred,

You are avoiding what the OT and NT Scriptures teach and are trying to impose your Trinitarian ideas.

You are dodging the use of "my God" plain and simple, because it refutes your false Unitarian understanding of God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fred,

You are dodging the use of "my God" plain and simple, because it refutes your false Unitarian understanding of God.

No, not at all. The OT concept of Elohim involves many agents representing God. These agents speak and act on behalf of God. This is the only reasonable explanation of the use of "Elohim" in many passages, for example the Angel in the Burning Bush and the Angel that wrestled with Jacob. Many Trinitarians do not understand this language and I assume that this is not generally taught and understood in most Churches.

Perhaps we do not need to learn Hebrew and or consider these OT occurrences. I consider that we can learn the same concept by the following:
John 14:8–11 (KJV): 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
Now some Trinitarians latch on to this and claim that this proves that Jesus is God, because in some way he is identical to God the Father. But here is the same concept as Elohim. Jesus, the Son of God, reveals God the Father. Jesus speaks and acts on God's behalf. When we look at Jesus we can say "My Lord", that is, Jesus and "My God" revealed in and through Jesus. When we see Jesus, we see God because Jesus reveals God.

I was introduced to the Yahweh Name at a Study Weekend when I was 19. Also in our Young People's Class we were given the task of identifying the various titles for God, and using colour mark in our Bibles the different Hebrew words except for Yahweh and Elohim which occured the most. We were taught the meaning of each of these words.

One benefit of discussing various Bible topics is that we encounter some interesting things. After quoting Psalm 45:7 I noticed that Jesus was "anointed with the oil of gladness", and I am interested as to what this represents. I have yet to determine this, but the "gladness" part reminded me of the following:
[olor=blue]Psalm 16:8–11 (KJV): 8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Psalm 21:1–6 (KJV): 1 The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice! 2 Thou hast given him his heart’s desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah. 3 For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head. 4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever. 5 His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him. 6 For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.

Hebrews 12:2 (KJV): Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. [/color]

I question how believers in Jesus having two natures, a God-man, would in any way see Jesus rejoicing within himself when he resumes his seat in the Trinity Throne and how this would fulfill these Scriptures.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

Greetings again Fred,

No, not at all.

You supplied tot one reference to the use of "my God."

God dwells in all who are Christians (2 Corinthians 6:16), but this doesn't mean Christians are to go around referring to one another as "my God."

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fred,

God dwells in all who are Christians (2 Corinthians 6:16), but this doesn't mean Christians are to go around referring to one another as "my God."

You are obviously correct, But Jesus is the central Being through whom God is revealed. Jesus is THE Son of God. We fall far short of that example.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

Greetings again Fred,

You are obviously correct, But Jesus is the central Being through whom God is revealed. Jesus is THE Son of God. We fall far short of that example.

Kind regards
Trevor

And any but God alone would fall far short of being properly referred to as "my God."

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fred,

And any but God alone would fall far short of being properly referred to as "my God."

John's record builds upon what Luke has recorded concerning the appearance of Jesus to the Apostles:
Luke 24:36–40 (KJV): 36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

Thomas was the only Apostle that was not present at this earlier appearance, and he dismissed the report of the other Apostles concerning Jesus showing them his wounds from the crucifixion, but to quote the whole passage to the end of the chapter:
John 20:24–31 (KJV): 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Now you would prefer or left open the concept that when David said in Psalm 110:1 "my Lord", that David was saying "my Adonai" a title used exclusively for God Himself, not "my Adon" a title meaning, Ruler, Master, King. I consider the second of these to be the correct understanding of this title, both here in John 20 and also Psalm 110.

Also the expression "my God", you claim that Thomas accepted Jesus as his God, possibly the Second person of the Trinity, while I have suggested that as the Angels and Judges were called "Elohim", and also from John 14 that Jesus fully revealed God the Father, then Thomas was simply acknowledging this fact that Jesus was indeed risen, and was now in his resurrected state more than ever God's representative.

One feature that is evident is that Jesus in his resurrected state is substantial "flesh and bones" and remarkably he still had evidence of his wounds. Here is a human, now resurrected, and I also believe at this stage he has been changed to an immortal Spirit body. This to me speaks clearly that Jesus is a human and not God the Son.

After this record of Thomas' statement and interaction by Thomas, John summarises the purpose of his writing and recording the various signs, and I will repeat the verse quoted above:
John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
If John 20:28 was a declaration by Thomas that Jesus is part of the Trinity, based upon one or two of the phrases, you would expect John to make a final declaration and summary of the Trinity, but instead he says that the purpose of his writing is that we may believe that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God". I claim that this is NOT saying that Jesus is "God the Son", or a God-man, but that Jesus Christ is a human, now glorified, (with flesh and bones), the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. As such, in this context the title "my God", a word also used for Angels and Judges, is of lesser status than "the Son of God."

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

Also the expression "my God", you claim that Thomas accepted Jesus as his God, possibly the Second person of the Trinity, while I have suggested that as the Angels and Judges were called "Elohim",

Never properly "my God".

and also from John 14 that Jesus fully revealed God the Father,

Which another expression could have been used besides "my God" which the OT believer reserved for the Almighty alone.......every time.

then Thomas was simply acknowledging this fact that Jesus was indeed risen,

and that He is the God ("my God ) of Thomas.

and was now in his resurrected state more than ever God's representative.

See my second response.


Such a short simple and direct phrase does not need multiple paragraphs in a futile attempt to overthrow what it means.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fred,

Never properly "my God".

I see no problem with the exclusive "my" when speaking of Jesus, no different to saying "my Lord" in the sense of "my King, Ruler, Master". The whole focus of God's full and complete revelation is in and through Jesus, while the Angels and Judges were only partial revelation. They were never "my God", they were objectively "Elohim", God revealed in part.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

Greetings again Fred,

I see no problem with the exclusive "my" when speaking of Jesus, no different to saying "my Lord" in the sense of "my King, Ruler, Master".

Thomas would have most probably known that "my God" was always used in reference to the Almighty.
Jesus would have most definitely known this.

The whole focus of God's full and complete revelation is in and through Jesus,

Which the above those who are in denial that Jesus is God don't have an excuse to continue therein anymore.

They were never "my God", they were objectively "Elohim", God revealed in part.

Nor were they ever referred to as such in the NT.
The reason: Because when "my God" is properly used by believers it is ALWAYS in reference to the Almighty.
Thomas would have most probably known that "my God" was always used in reference to the Almighty.
Jesus would have most definitely known this.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fred,

Thomas would have most probably known that "my God" was always used in reference to the Almighty.

I consider that "my God" is parallel with "my Lord". Evidently adoni is used 195 times representing "my master" and similar, marking the person addressed as the recipient of honour, but never as the Supreme God. God Himself is addressed as Adonai, marking the one and only Supreme God and is used 449 times. You are still using "Elohim", "God" in the English sense of the word with a strong bias in your thinking with the Trinity in mind. If I said in English he is a godly person, or even a Divine Being (speaking of an Angel), perhaps this is getting closer to the concept.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

Greetings again Fred,

I consider that "my God" is parallel with

...the Almighty.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fred,

...the Almighty.

We have stated our two perspectives. I believe in One God, Yahweh, God the Father. In your studies have you considered the Hebrew title for God called "El Shaddai", usually translated God Almighty. Also have you considered another title for God "El"? Also we the Most High God (El). These were some of the titles that were introduced to us in our Young People's Class and also in the Introduction to the Adelaide South Australian Edition of the booklet Phanerosis by John Thomas, 137 pages. This lists most of the Scriptures where the lesser used titles occur, but this can also be gathered by other reference books available to all. The UK original and recent reprint did not have this added to the Introduction. Understanding some of these titles adds a richer understanding to some passages, including the Psalms and is an interesting and beneficial study.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fred,

Another perspective that I find interesting is the way Yahweh is used in different contexts and different combinations. We have Yahweh, usually translated as LORD in the KJV, and Yahweh Elohim KJV "LORD God" and a lesser occurrence of Adonai Yahweh KJV "Lord GOD". To the casual reader there seems to be no distinction. Is this just poetic variation, or are the different combinations conveying a phrase with distinctive meanings?

My understanding of some of the range of the word "Elohim" suggests to me at least that "Yahweh Elohim" is more than the bland English Lord God, but represents the One God, Yahweh, God the Father who delights to be revealed in and through others called "Mighty Ones" whose Strength and Ability is ultimately derived from "El", the Supreme Power of the Universe.

My understanding of Adonai Yahweh is that this is set in contexts where the faithful need assurance that Yahweh is in control during their difficult trials, and will help them and deliver them.

There are also some combinations of the Name Yahweh and some of the titles, and each needs to be considered carefully in their context. For example the Shema may represent a lot more than a simple English translation:
Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV): Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
and the real meaning of the following can be lost by the translation of two different words with simply "God":
Genesis 33:20 (NET): There he set up an altar and called it “The God of Israel is God.
Genesis 33:20 (KJV): And he erected there an altar, and called it Elelohe-Israel. (or El-Elohe)
At least the KJV gives some indication of the two different Hebrew words, even if they do not give a clear answer to the real meaning here.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Eleanor]

Another perspective that I find interesting

The perspective I find interesting is the NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, wherein from the beginning:

1) We have three separate persons (divine agents), Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
presented in the work of salvation:

a)--at its beginning (Luke 1:35),
-----at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Matthew 3:16-17) and
-----in the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14),

b) the Holy Spirit completing the work (salvation) of the Father through the Son
(Acts 2:38-39; Romans 8:26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:13-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2),

c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father (salvation) is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-15).

2) And Jesus shows the personhoods of three distinct and separate divine agents:

The Son is sent by the Father, in the Father's name (John 5:23, 36, 43).
The Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (John 14:26).
The Spirit is subject to the Son as well as to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).

One doesn't send oneself, one sends another who is separate from oneself.

The Trinity--one God in three separate divine persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit--is presented in NT teaching from the beginning.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Eleanor,

The perspective I find interesting is the NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, wherein from the beginning:
We have three separate persons (divine agents), Father, Son and Holy Spirit, presented in the work of salvation:
--at its beginning (Luke 1:35),
-----at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Matthew 3:16-17)

I suggest that there is a large and significant difference between what the above verses teach and the view that there are three persons here that make up the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You seem to infer that if someone rejects the Trinity, that they in effect deny God the Father, Jesus the Son of God and the Holy Spirit, God the Father's power.
Luke 1:30–35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Here we have One Being called "the Highest", and He is distinct from Jesus who is "the Son of the Highest" and Jesus is also "the Son of God". Both of these titles prove that Jesus is not "the Highest" or "God". The Highest is also distinct from the Holy Spirit as the "Holy Spirit" and ""the power of the Highest" are equated in a poetic parallelism. The "Highest" is therefore the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of the Highest and the Son of God, the Son of the One God, the Father. There is no hint of the Trinity. Jesus is a human, the Son of God, by means of God's power, the Holy Spirit. There is absolutely no hint that a separate Being, God the Son was shrunk into the womb of Mary to form a God-man.

Matthew 3:16–17 (KJV): 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Here we have "the Spirit of God", and this is God the Father's Spirit, the Spirit is of God, having its source in God the Father, and is not God the Spirit. And God the Father describes Jesus as His beloved Son, describing God the Father's descendant and God the Father's Servant Isaiah 42:1. Yes, there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted, the Son of God by birh, character and resurrection. The Holy Spirit is the power of God the father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Eleanor]

The perspective I find interesting is the NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, wherein from the beginning:
1) We have three separate persons (divine agents), Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
presented in the work of salvation:
a)--at its beginning (Luke 1:35),
-----at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Matthew 3:16-17) and
-----in the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14),
b) the Holy Spirit completing the work (salvation) of the Father through the Son
(Acts 2:38-39; Romans 8:26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:13-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2),

c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father (salvation) is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-15).
2) And Jesus shows the personhoods of three distinct and separate divine agents:
The Son is sent by the Father, in the Father's name (John 5:23, 36, 43).
The Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (John 14:26).
The Spirit is subject to the Son as well as to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).
One doesn't send oneself, one sends another who is separate from oneself.
The Trinity--one God in three separate divine persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit--is presented in NT teaching from the beginning.

Greetings again Eleanor,

I suggest that there is a large and significant difference between what the above verses teach and the view that there are three persons here that make up the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You seem to infer that if someone rejects the Trinity, that they in effect deny God the Father, Jesus the Son of God and the Holy Spirit, God the Father's power.

No, I state that those who reject the Trinity reject the three distinct divine persons, God the Father, God the Son (who became flesh, Jn 1:1, 14) and God the Holy Spirit, manifesting from the beginning of the NT their three distinct personhoods in the one God, in the NT Scriptures presented above.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Eleanor,

No, I state that those who reject the Trinity reject the three distinct divine persons, God the Father, God the Son (who became flesh, Jn 1:1, 14) and God the Holy Spirit, manifesting from the beginning of the NT their three distinct personhoods in the one God, in the NT Scriptures presented above.

Yes, I reject your wrong doctrine as stated above. There is One God, the Father and Jesus is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Eleanor,

I suggest that there is a large and significant difference between what the above verses teach and the view that there are three persons here that make up the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You seem to infer that if someone rejects the Trinity, that they in effect deny God the Father, Jesus the Son of God and the Holy Spirit, God the Father's power.

Greetings Trevor once again~

Trevor, there is a holy Trinity based upon each respective work in the redemption of God's elect. 2nd Corinthians 13:14. But for now, I want to ask you this question~I have seen where you continuously refer to the Holy Spirit more or less as a "force of God's power, or source" of God's power, when the truth is the Holy Ghost is God without qualifications. In the beginning was God....period! This Infinite Being is a Spirit, so why would you, or anyone else refer to The Holy Ghost as force/source of God's power?

Also, If Jesus is the Son of God, begotten/conceived by Him, then Trevor, that makes him equal to God~even Jesus' enemies understood this truth ( see John 10:30-36 )~ a truth that you and Christadelphian sect reject, thereby, you reject the deity of Jesus christ as the I AM THAT I AM that who in his deity created all things and is the everlasting father per Isaiah 9:6........the child that was born....the son that was given by God.... IS the almighty God; the Alpha and the Omega; the First and the Last~Revelation 1:14. Trevor, do you believe Jesus in his deity was the first and shall be the last? This is the true Son of God of the scriptures, anything less is another jesus, which has with it another gospel with another spirit behind it. Jesus Christ will be the only God man shall ever see, ( Matthew 5:8 ) as far as that goes even angels will ever see~they saw God for the first time when they saw JESUS! 1st Timothy 3:16!

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

When did the angels see God for the first time? When the Word, which was God, was manifest in the flesh!.

Luke 1:30–35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Here we have One Being called "the Highest", and He is distinct from Jesus who is "the Son of the Highest"

Jesus was a complex person, and unless we divide the scriptures properly, we will corrupt the teachings that he was fully a man, yet he was also fully God~ whether we understand this or not, it is a truth contain in the holy scriptures and to reject this is to take issues with God's testimony concerning his Son which I would not suggest anyone even thinking to do this, we accept it as little children knowing that with God all things are possible. His dual natures were ever separated within him and never interact with each other ~ a mystery of the Godhead, yet reveal to us from the scriptures.

Both of these titles prove that Jesus is not "the Highest" or "God".

Said WHO? The Jehovah Witnesses, or your group, the Christadelphian sect? It is folk like you that cannot properly divide the word of God, and thereby, rob Christ of his deity being the true God and eternal life, according to John the apostle's teachings~1st John 5:20.

The Highest is also distinct from the Holy Spirit as the "Holy Spirit" and ""the power of the Highest" are equated in a poetic parallelism.

Now that's a fancy way of denying the Holy Trinity by just eliminating the Holy Ghost ( which I know you folks refuse to use that phrase as referring to God, so I use it because the scriptures do) and make "it" not Him, a power of God, and not God Himself! One heresy always leads to another one, just keep digging.

The "Highest" is therefore the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

THe Highest is God! God is His title, JEHOVAH is his name. I do not know who Yahweh is, and neither do you btw. You call Jehovah, Yahweh; the Muslims call Jehovah, Allah; I do not know who he he is and neither do they. I'll go with the scriptures.

Psalms 83:18~"That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth."

Isaiah 12:2~"Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."

Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of the Highest and the Son of God, the Son of the One God, the Father. There is no hint of the Trinity. Jesus is a human, the Son of God, by means of God's power, the Holy Spirit. There is absolutely no hint that a separate Being, God the Son was shrunk into the womb of Mary to form a God-man.

He was BOTH man and God in one body~it is called complex natures. The scriptures reveals BOTH! We speak where the scriptures speak ~thereby, we see very clearly how BOTH are true. It is called....

Matthew 3:16–17 (KJV): 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Here we have "the Spirit of God", and this is God the Father's Spirit, the Spirit is of God, having its source in God the Father, and is not God the Spirit. And God the Father describes Jesus as His beloved Son, describing God the Father's descendant and God the Father's Servant Isaiah 42:1. Yes, there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted, the Son of God by birh, character and resurrection. The Holy Spirit is the power of God the father.

No, there you have a very clear picture of THREE IN ONE in providing for the redemption of God's elect, all three do their respective work, yet one God. With God all things are possible. Praise be to his holy name.
.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker,

Wow, what a repeat of what you have previously stated concerning the Trinity, and also including your KJO perspective. I am not sure if @Eleanor or @Fred would agree with everything you state here, but will most probably tolerate some of your unique views on the basis of the Chinese saying: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". I appreciate your sincerity in stating again your position on a number of items and at the same time denouncing what I have previously stated. I will only mention a few things.

I have seen where you continuously refer to the Holy Spirit more or less as a "force of God's power, or source" of God's power, when the truth is the Holy Ghost is God without qualifications. In the beginning was God....period! This Infinite Being is a Spirit, so why would you, or anyone else refer to The Holy Ghost as force/source of God's power?

You seem to give a strange assessment of what I believe concerning God's Holy Spirit. I consider that when God the Father wants to accomplish a special task that He does this by means of His Holy Spirit. Two examples, the inspiration of the Scriptures and the conception of Jesus in the womb of Mary.

When did the angels see God for the first time? When the Word, which was God, was manifest in the flesh!.

Do you include Gabriel in this "first time"?
Luke 1:18–19,26 (KJV): 18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

you reject the deity of Jesus christ as the I AM THAT I AM

Yes, refer to my various posts in a number of threads. I accept that Yahweh is "I will be/become what/whom I will be" and "He will be". Perhaps you have never even considered the 1st and 3rd form of the Yahweh Name as it is not completely clear in the KJV and you would need to consider an elementary reference book such as Strong's. Such a course of action is frowned upon by one of your speakers.

THe Highest is God! God is His title, JEHOVAH is his name. I do not know who Yahweh is, and neither do you btw. ... I'll go with the scriptures.

Your KJO view is what you are claiming here as "the scriptures". One of these days you may be willing to consider a few reference books and a few verses from other translations that help to correct or improve some of the KJV rendition of various important verses. I recommend the OT portion of the RV/KJV Interlinear Bible that my grandmother preferred and I also inherited one from my mother's estate and now use this in my morning Scripture reading. You would enjoy some of the corrections and improvements by such scholars as Ginsburg and AB Davidson and others.

Kind regards
Trevor