The Trinity

[Eleanor]

All of which is a closed book to those who do not believe (Jn 3:3-5, 1 Co 2:14).

So no point in wasting any more time here.

Dearest - " Eleanor "
thank you so very much for taking valuable time to reply to my post, I deeply appreciate communicating with you and others pertaining to this topic.
May we see the context of the verses in your post presented - concerning - 1Co 2:14 & Joh 3:3
1Co 2:14 The natural man is - foolishness

Well, how could anyone not respond to a request so graciously stated. . .

Are you unaware of the context or the meaning of 1 Co 2:14?
Faith does not rest in men's wisdom, but in God's power (2:4-5).
God's secret (never before revealed) wisdom is revealed to us by the Holy Spirit (2:8-10).
We have received the Holy Spirit that we may understand God's newly revealed wisdom (2:11-12).
God's wisdom is taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to spiritual (regenerated) men (2:13).
The man without the Holy Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishess to him and and he cannot understand them for they are spiritually (of the Holy Spirit) discerned (1 Co 2:14).

The things that come from the Holy Spirit of God (e.g., revelation of the Trinity) are a closed book to the man without the Holy Spirit (unregenerated).

&
Joh 3:3 A man whom is not born again, - cannot see - kingdom of God.

Are you unaware of the context of Jn 3;3?
Nicodemus came to Jesus at night, either because he was afraid to come by day, or he wanted to have a long talk, which would have been difficult in the daytime with the crowds around Jesus.

And as in 1 Co 2:14, Jesus informed Nicodemus that the man without the rebirth of the Holy Spirit can neither see (Jn 3:3) nor enter (Jn 3:5) the kingdom of God.

Just as Scripture is closed to the one without the Holy Spirit, so the kingdom of God is closed to the one without the Holy Spirit and his rebirth.

I do understand your point - that Jesus was demonstrating that they were not seeing a ghost (spirit), but actual flesh and bones of his resurrected body.

BUT - my question was not about the Wisdom and declaration of excellency of speech as the topic of " 1Co 2:14 " is describing
BUT also - my question was not about accepting miracles that someone whom is not born again cannot see and accept as from God as the topic of " Joh 3:3 " is describing

please - could you as a Trinitarian please respond to my question presentenced in my post
why is the trinitarian father also not considered - a Holy Spirit ? - - are not there 2 or 3 holy spirits ?
what is God = is the trinity Godhead partly holy and partly unholy -- and 2 of the Spirits of the trinity are not holy spirits ? but only 1 single Spirits of the trinity is - a Holy Spirit - the other 2 spirits are not holy spirits ?
who is the trinitarian Jesus, is he also not considered - a Holy Spirit ? - - is the Sprit of Jesus, not a Holy Spirit ?

God is spirit (Jn 4:24), the Trinity is spirit, the divine holy God the Father is spirit, the divine holy God the Son is spirit, the divine holy God the Holy Spirit is spirit,
the Holy Spirit being the spirit of the Father (proceeding out from within the Father, Jn 15:26) and also the spirit of the Son (proceeding out from the Son, Rev 22:1, 17).

how is the trinitarian Jesus expecting to commit his spirit into the hands of another spirit. when a spirit does not have flesh and bones or hands - a spirit has no hands

Why would Jesus' immaterial spirit need hands, flesh and bone to commit itself to the immaterial spirit Father?
Spirits are immaterial, and operate apart from materiality.

- how does this apply to the Old Testament referring to the voice, arm, hands, face eyes - Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD

where is the voice, arm, hands, face and eyes of the Father - where does the LORD smell a sweet savour and where does the LORD say something in his heart - a spirit has no heartbeat

Are you not familiar with anthropomorphism; i.e.,the attribution (not the actuality) of human characteristics or behavior to a god, animal, or object, which is throughout the OT in regard to Gd, to enable human understanding of God?
If you cannot understand these things, then you cannot understand the Biblical answers to your questions.

when the scriptures say that the very sending of Jesus the Son Of God is a mystery that has been hidden since being ordained before the world - none of the princes of this world knew anything about Jesus the Son Of God.

can you as a Trinitarian please provide an answer _ - FROM YOUR TRINITARIAN TRANSLATION

"Mystery" means secret, something never before revealed by God.
The NT has many of them; i.e., new revelation from God through Jesus of Nazareth and his apostles.
That mystery (secret) of sending the Son of God was not revealed until the NT.

Now please don't make this a waste of my time.

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

Rev 1:1

αποκαλυψις The revelation - ιησου Jesus - χριστου The Anointing - ην which - εδωκεν given - αυτω himself - ο the - θεος God - δειξαι showing - τοις the - δουλοις servants - αυτου this - α that - δει must - γενεσθαι be done - εν in - ταχει quickness - και and - εσημανεν be evidence - αποστειλας as sending - δια through - του the - αγγελου angel - αυτου which is - τω the - δουλω servant - αυτου which is - ιωαννη John

meaning from Greek


:1

THE REVELATION JESUS THE ANOINTING WHICH GIVEN HIMSELF THE GOD SHOWED THE SERVANTS THIS THAT MUST BE DONE IN QUICKNESS AND BE EVIDENCE AS SENDING THROUGH THE ANGEL WHICH IS THE SERVANT WHICH IS - JOHN

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

i come as quickness

Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

i am sorry if i missed or mistakenly posted something that was not as our Lord Yahashua the Anointing would have us brothers sacred sister to understand

we need and depend upon our Sisters in the Lord

but i will not compromise

we MUST REMEBER


2Sa 1:26



צר־לי Sorrowful I am - עליך upon - אחי my brother - יהונתן Yahnathan - נעמת pleasant - לי to me - מאד greatly - נפלאתה wonderous - אהבתך was your love - לי to me - מאהבת for as the love - נשׁים׃ of a woman

meaning from Greek to truth

Sorrowful I am upon my brother Yahnathan,, pleasant to me wonderous - was your to me for as the love of a woman


This is not about sexuality or romance.

This passage is describing the BROTHERHOOD union that David and Yahnathan shared in that Yahnathan and David made an OATH to protect one another

Jonathan and David made a mutual brotherhood COVENANT to one another with and Yahnathan loved David as his very own soul.



They were each putting their very lives on the line to protect one another and keep one another alive and their BROTHERHOOD was a true love that they in Vowels and an Oath they both were loyal to one another - sharing a BROTHERHOOD / OATH and COVENANT that was built upon survival ……. the kind of oath and covenant that a man and his wives would share in survival and perfect unity of success.



Yahnathan ministered to David’s needs and survival to help him survive in every way, giving David his very own robes when David had no robes, giving David weapons, information and support for survival.

They were a team a unit closely knit together in every aspect possible to provide survival and truth to one another and Yahnathan preserved the very life of David fulfilling the BROTHERHOOD / OATH and COVENANT that they made to one another.



Their friendship and BROTHERHOOD was beyond perfection it was a union of BROTHERHOOD that was like - or as - such as woman and man who love one another and their OATH and COVENANT is unbreakable





This was David admitting that he could not survive and flourish without the protective covering OATH and COVENANT they shared - in how Yahnathan ministered unto him



This was David admitting that - “ Yahnathan “ - was literally like a woman who was perfectly faithful to her OATH and COVENANT she had made with a man.



In every way “ Yahnathan “ was there for David- when no other was there for him and the BROTHERHOOD / OATH and COVENANT that they made to one another was a situation that - - - WAS VOID OF FEMALE SEXUAL COMPANIONSHIP -



but the BROTHERHOOD / OATH and COVENANT that they made to one another WAS THE SAME RELATIONSHIP - SPIRITUALLY, AND FAITHFULLY as that - OF A WOMAN WHO LOVES, PROTECTS, SERVES, GIVING HER LIFE, MOTHERHOOD, SACRIFICING UNCONDITIONALLY AS WOMAN WOULD WHO “ LOVES BEYOND LOVE “ TO BE SOMEONE THAT ONLY A WOMAN COULD FEEL AND SHARE FOR THE LOVE OF FAMILY

AS A WOMAN LOVES HER FAMILY- WHO WOULD SACRIFICE HER VERY LIVE IN EVERY SITUATION TO SAVE AND PRESERVE THOSE THE WOMAN CARES FOR.



A WOMANS LOVE AS A MOTHER AND PROTRECTRESS AND SACRIFICE IS PRICELESS, PRECIOUS AND UNDYING.



In every way “ Yahnathan “ was there for David - mothering him, protecting him, faithful to their mutual OATH and COVENANT of PROTECTION and PRESERVATION - at a time when they both lived lives wherein neither of them had no mother or woman to protect and love and minister as only a faithful WOMAN is capable .



Is was as if David was saying that the environment and situation that he and “ Yahnathan “ encountered was as if it were a husband and wife situation in that they both were without wives and family and in the insanity they both endured they possessed mutual OATH and COVENANT of PROTECTION and PRESERVATION and were as if a woman who protects and serves her family - in the midst of them both having no woman

2Sa 1:26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me wonderous - was for to me for as the love of a woman

complete and enduring protection that will never pass or fail - the Love of a Woman beyond anything


walking the floors and the FBI and their deputy agent's microwave your little baby brothers brain into agony and screams you never ever forget - forever

 

[Eleanor]

i am sorry if i missed or mistakenly posted something that was not as our Lord Yahashua the Anointing would have us brothers sacred sister to understand

Perhaps a good NT commentary is called for.

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

he's gonna get you

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings civic,

Psalm 110:1
The Lord says to my Lord:
"Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

It is obvious to most Bible readers that there are two different Hebrew words here for "Lord" and this is clear from the way the KJV distinguishes these by using UPPER and lower case letters:
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
The two words have a different range of meaning, and I assume that you already knew this fact if you have been discussing and expounding the Trinity for a long time. If otherwise, please check Strongs' Concordance, S#3068 and S#113.

The most popular translations also show this distinction.
Psalm 110:1 (RSV): The LORD says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool.”

Psalm 110:1 (NIV84): The LORD says to my Lord: ""Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

Psalm 110:1 (NASB 95): The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

Psalm 110:1 (ESV): The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Psalm 110:1 (NLT): The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet.”

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

Greetings civic,

It is obvious to most Bible readers that there are two different Hebrew words here for "Lord" and this is clear from the way the KJV distinguishes these by using UPPER and lower case letters:
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
The two words have a different range of meaning, and I assume that you already knew this fact if you have been discussing and expounding the Trinity for a long time. If otherwise, please check Strongs' Concordance, S#3068 and S#113.

Psalm 110:1

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Fred,

Psalm 110:1 Video: "Was David's Lord Merely Human or Divine "

I appreciate your referencing this video. It is an excellent presentation as far as showing the Hebrew and other aspects. I cannot accept that the speaker has given a convincing proof of his claim. He would like to change the Masoretic text from adoni to adonai, but he in no wise proves that this is correct. Perhaps he would like to read Psalm 110:1 as "God said unto my God" or "Yahweh said unto my Yahweh", but there are two distinct Hebrew words, and you have not really addressed this.

Psalm 110:1 is the most quoted and expounded OT passage in the NT and nowhere does this exposition support his claim. We speak of "our Lord Jesus Christ" and my impression at least is that we are not saying "our Yahweh Jesus Christ" as we are acknowledging Jesus as our Master, Ruler, Lord. So I would like to hear from you what you consider Psalm 110:1 is actually saying, and also from @civic seeing he quoted or possibly misquoted Psalm 110:1 in the first place. Please note that the RSV translates Psalm 110:1 as "lord" not "Lord", preserving the RV rendition which I could have also quoted, and this acknowledges that the Masoretic text has "adoni", not "adonai".

My passion is the Trinity, Deity of Christ and the Bodily Resurrection of Christ which is the centerpiece of the gospel.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

Greetings Fred,

I appreciate your referencing this video. It is an excellent presentation as far as showing the Hebrew and other aspects. I cannot accept that the speaker has given a convincing proof of his claim. He would like to change the Masoretic text from adoni to adonai, but he in no wise proves that this is correct.

No vowels at the time of the original Hebrew text.

Perhaps he would like to read Psalm 110:1 as "God said unto my God" or "Yahweh said unto my Yahweh", but there are two distinct Hebrew words, and you have not really addressed this.

See above.

Psalm 110:1 is

..what you have ignored here:

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/a-slave-of-christ-yhwh.1025/#post-38332

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fred,

No vowels at the time of the original Hebrew text.

But you referenced a video "Was David's Lord merely Human or Divine", but the whole video is dedicated to endorse the fact that the original Hebrew did not have vowel points, and hence each reader must decide for himself which word best represents what Psalm 110:1 conveys. I assume that you are endorsing a change from adon to adonai, and hence in effect David is speaking of Jesus as David's "God" despite the fact that this is not endorsed by the RV and RSV translations and their translation panel.

What we have in Psalm 110:1 is One Being called Yahweh inviting another Being called David's Lord to sit at Yahweh's right hand. Now from Revelation 3:21-22 we learn that Yahweh is God the Father and God the Father is seated in His Throne and this Lord is our Lord Jesus Christ who is invited to sit in this Throne.
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
The Throne that Jesus is now sitting in is the Father's Throne. He was invited to sit in this Throne after and as a result of the fact that he "overcame", that is his ministry and especially because he endured his trial, suffering, crucifixion and death. He overcame sin and all its effects.

There is absolutely no hint that he is simply resuming his seat on the Throne in heaven, as this Throne is not a Trinity Throne, it is the Father's Throne. Jesus' present position is not his permanent position upon that Throne, but Jesus will return to sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years.
Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

Greetings again Frethe original Hebrew did not have vowel points,

Which is true

and hence each reader must decide for himself which word best represents what Psalm 110:1 conveys. I assume that you are endorsing a change from adon to adonai, and hence in effect David is speaking of Jesus as David's "God" despite the fact that this is not endorsed by the RV and RSV translations and their translation panel.

What we have in Psalm 110:1 is One Being

Person,

called Yahweh inviting another Being

Person


All three passages in the link I cited relate to one another. Pelach is presented as either the proper worship given to God, or the improper worship given to idols.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fred,

Which is true

All I can say is that Psalm 110:1 does not fit the Trinitarian view. The video is trying to bypass the obvious, by replacing David's "Lord" in the sense of Ruler, Master, Lord with effectively David's "God" by changing the vowel points supplied by the Masoretic text. The original Post by @civic tried to avoid the obvious by trying to merge Yahweh with Adon by saying "The Lord said unto my Lord".

Person,

Person

When Jesus was on the Mount of Transfiguration he was with 5 other Beings, Peter, James and John and also Moses and Elijah appeared. Are you suggesting that here were 5 Beings, and yet Jesus is only a Person and not a Being? Another Trinitarian dilemma or double talk

All three passages in the link I cited relate to one another. Pelach is presented as either the proper worship given to God, or the improper worship given to idols.

Philippians 2:1–11 (KJV): 1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
When we bow the knee to Jesus we give obeisance to Jesus to the glory of God the Father, in and through whom all things have been achieved, and to whom all the glory is due. It does not say "To the glory of the Trinity" or "To the glory of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit". We worship the One God, Yahweh, God the Father through our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God who fully reveals His Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

Greetings again Fred,

All I can say is that Psalm 110:1 does not fit the Trinitarian view.

Sure you can say it, but there isn't any proof for it.

The video is trying to bypass the obvious, by replacing David's "Lord" in the sense of Ruler, Master, Lord with effectively David's "God" by changing the vowel points supplied by the Masoretic text. The original Post by @civic tried to avoid the obvious by trying to merge Yahweh with Adon by saying "The Lord said unto my Lord".

When Jesus was on the Mount of Transfiguration he was with 5 other Beings, Peter, James and John and also Moses and Elijah appeared. Are you suggesting that here were 5 Beings, and yet Jesus is only a Person and not a Being?

The others aren't the proper recipient of pelach. Jesus is. This proves He is God.
Another Unitarian dodge.

We worship the One God, Yahweh, God the Father through our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God who fully reveals His Father.

And Christians render worship to Jesus because they know the Bible affirms He is God.

 

[Fred]

Greetings

It is sad that you couldn't refute what I asserted, but still deny the Lord Jesus is God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fred,

It is sad that you couldn't refute what I asserted, but still deny the Lord Jesus is God.

Yes, I am disappointed that we have not made any real progress or with @Eleanor who endorsed your post. Yes, I deny Jesus is God in the English sense of the word, but I can address Jesus as my Lord and my God in what I consider is the Bible sense. I find no Bible reference to the Trinity or God the Son.

I repeat from previous posts that I do not accept the inference of the video concerning Psalm 110:1 concerning David's "Lord". I consider such a claim is a desperate diversion from what Psalm 110:1 is actually clearly and simply teaching. I also consider the misquote of Psalm 110:1 by @civic is also a desperate diversion.

I consider that I have given a reasonably thorough answer, both here in this thread and mainly in the threads "Yahweh or Trinity 301,302" and "The Yahweh Name". I am not interested in going over the same ground all the time. Typical of some of the interactions is the title of the video that you recommended "Was David's Lord Merely Human or Divine?". Such a title seems to suggest that someone in my position believes that Jesus is only a mere man and has no credentials as to why he is the central focus of God's purpose and plan and preparation. Jesus is the central focus of our worship of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father as I quoted from Philippians 2:11, a position and a status given to him by the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

I suggest that if we cannot agree with the simple, basic, clear verses then there is no benefit in going on to the more difficult verses and concepts. I have not been able as yet (partly from my lack of ability and lack of full understanding) to add additional more difficult concepts to the theme "The Yahweh Name" as expounded by my fellowship's pioneers and expositors since then. For example John Thomas spoke and wrote on this subject in 1858 and some of this is preserved in the booklet "Phanerosis". This exposition was as a result of being asked by a Trinitarian Jew to defend the Trinity before a sceptical Jewish audience. Instead John Thomas expounded his understanding of the Yahweh Name, much to the anguish of the Trinitarian Jew.

John Thomas also wrote in his three volume book "Eureka - an Exposition of the Apocalypse" (now published in five volumes) in the Section "The Mystery of Godliness Apocalypsed in Symbol" in pages 87 -115, which includes the sub-sections
1. Of Deity before Manifestation in Flesh
2. Deity Manifested in Flesh
3. Deity Manifested in Spirit
4. Symbolization of Deity in Spirit

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

I can address Jesus as my Lord and my God in what I consider is the Bible sense.

In the OT whenever a believer used the expression "my God" it always referred to the Almighty.
Thomas most probably would have known this when he used this expression in reference to Jesus in John 20:28.
The Lord Jesus would have most definitely known what it meant.

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings again Fred,

Yes, I am disappointed that we have not made any real progress or with @Eleanor who endorsed your post. Yes, I deny Jesus is God in the English sense of the word, but I can address Jesus as my Lord and my God in what I consider is the Bible sense. I find no Bible reference to the Trinity or God the Son.

Nor do I find any Biblical reference to "sovereignty," but I find God's sovereignty throughout the Bible (e.g., Da 4:35).
Likewise, I find no Biblical reference to "trinity," but I find it from the very beginning in the NT:

1) We have three separate persons (divine agents), Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
presented in the work of salvation:

a)--at its beginning (Luke 1:35),
-----at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Matthew 3:16-17) and
-----in the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14),

b) the Holy Spirit completing the work (salvation) of the Father through the Son
(Acts 2:38-39; Romans 8:26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:13-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2),

c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father (salvation) is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-15).

2) And Jesus shows the personhoods of three distinct and separate divine agents:

The Son is sent by the Father, in the Father's name (John 5:23, 36, 43).
The Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (John 14:26).
The Spirit is subject to the Son as well as to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).

One doesn't send oneself, one sends another who is separate from oneself.

The Trinity--one God in three separate divine persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit--is presented in NT teaching from the beginning.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fred,

In the OT whenever a believer used the expression "my God" it always referred to the Almighty.

Jesus is unique. Jesus was made a little lower than Elohim. Elohim has now exalted Jesus above Elohim.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

Greetings again Fred,

Jesus is unique. Jesus was made a little lower than Elohim. Elohim has now exalted Jesus above Elohim.

Kind regards
Trevor

You are dodging what I wrote about in my previous post.
Please try again.