The Trinity

[Carbon]

John 1

Amen. In Genesis in the creation story is another.

 

[Arial]

okay thank you sir! I have a question for you.

Where is the Trinity explained or described in the Bible?

Gen 1-2. one God, one Creator.

Gen 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Another is present and involved in creation, and identified as also distinct.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

"Us" a plurality. "Our" a plurality. The plurality having the same image and likeness.

So we know of at least two who are the same, God and the Spirit. Is there more? How does Jesus fit into this?

Col 1:15-16 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities---all things were created through him and for him.

1 Cor 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Heb 1:2 But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.

And to put it together lest there still be doubt:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

14. And the Word Became Flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[Carbon]

Gen 1-2. one God, one Creator.

Gen 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Another is present and involved in creation, and identified as also distinct.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

"Us" a plurality. "Our" a plurality. The plurality having the same image and likeness.

So we know of at least two who are the same, God and the Spirit. Is there more? How does Jesus fit into this?

Col 1:15-16 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities---all things were created through him and for him.

1 Cor 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Heb 1:2 But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.

And to put it together lest there still be doubt:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

14. And the Word Became Flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Amen!

 

[Eleanor]

okay thank you sir! I have a question for you.

Where is the Trinity explained or described in the Bible?

And now to pile on. . .for those who have eyes that can see (in contrast to those of 1 Co 2:14), it is presented in abundance:

1) In the work of salvation, the NT shows three distinct divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit (redemption is a function of divinity).

a) Father, Son and Holy Spirit at its beginning (Lk 1:35), at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Mt 3:16-17), and in the work of. atonement (Heb 9:14).
b) The Holy Spirit completing the salvation work of the Father through the Son -- Ac 2:38-39, Ro 8 (v.26), 1 Co 12:4-13 (vv. 4-6), Eph 1:3-14 (v.14), 2:13-22 (v.18), 2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2.
c) The way to enter the kingdom of the Father is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit -- Jn 3:1-15 (vv. 5, 14-15).

2) In the triune name of God, where Father, Son and Holy Spirit are bracketed together:

a) Jesus said this was the name (singular--not names, plural) of the God with whom we have to do and enter into relationship (Mt 28:19).
b) All three are used interchangeably (1 Co 12:4-6).
c) All three are linked in prayer for divine blessing (2 Co 13:14).
d) All three are linked in pronouncement of divine blessing (Rev 1:4-5).

3) In the co-equal relationship pointed to by the close connection in the NT between Father and Son, Father and Spirit, and Son and Spirit:

a) See Ac 16:7, Ro 1:7, 8:9, 27, 1Co 1:3, 2Co 1:2, Gal 1:3, 4:6, Eph 1:2, Php 1:2, 19, 1Th 1:1, 3:11, 2Th 1:2, 8, 12, 2:16, 3:5, 1Pe 1:2.
b) "The Lord Jesus is the Spirit" (2Co 3:17), "the Lord who is the Spirit" (2Co 3:18). The Spirit is one with Jesus in the unity of the Godhead.
Not only does Jesus work in men through the Spirit, but the Son and Spirit are co-equal divine beings (Christ the Lord worked through Paul, but Paul would never have said, "The Lord is Paul," to express the thought that Christ worked through Paul). Not only does Christ work through the Spirit, but Christ and the Spirit are co-equal. Paul is stating the Spirit's place in the Godhead.
c) It is the Father who will send the Spirit (Jn 14:36) as it was the Father who sent the Son (Jn 5:23, 36).
It is also the Son who will send the Spirit "from the Father" (Jn 15:26).
As the Father sent the Son into the world, so the Son will send the Spirit into the world (Jn 16:7).
So the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father.
It is Jesus who shows here (c) three distinct divine persons in disclosing the mystery (never before revealed) of the Trinity, which mystery is the heart of the Christian faith in God.
And that mystery is three distinct divine persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the work of the one God of salvation.

 

[Carbon]

For those who have eyes that can see, it is presented in abundance:

1) In the work of salvation, the NT shows three distinct divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit (redemption is a function of divinity).

a) Father, Son and Holy Spirit at its beginning (Lk 1:35), at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Mt 3:16-17), and in the work of. atonement (Heb 9:14).
b) The Holy Spirit completing the salvation work of the Father through the Son -- Ac 2:38-39, Ro 8 (v.26), 1 Co 12:4-13 (vv. 4-6), Eph 1:3-14 (v.14), 2:13-22 (v.18), 2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2.
c) The way to enter the kingdom of the Father is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit -- Jn 3:1-15 (vv. 5, 14-15).

2) The triune name of God, where Father, Son and Holy Spirit are bracketed together:

a) Jesus said this was the name (singular--not names, plural) of the God with whom we have to do and enter into relationship (Mt 28:19).
b) All three are used interchangeably (1 Co 12:4-6).
c) All three are linked in prayer for divine blessing (2 Co 13:14).
d) All three are linked in pronouncement of divine blessing (Rev 1:4-5).

3) The co-equal relationship pointed to by the close connection in the NT between Father and Son, Father and Spirit, and Son and Spirit:

a) See Ac 16:7, Ro 1:7, 8:9, 27, 1Co 1:3, 2Co 1:2, Gal 1:3, 4:6, Eph 1:2, Php 1:2, 19, 1Th 1:1, 3:11, 2Th 1:2, 8, 12, 2:16, 3:5, 1Pe 1:2.
b) "The Lord Jesus is the Spirit" (2Co 3:17), "the Lord who is the Spirit" (2Co 3:18). The Spirit is one with Jesus in the unity of the Godhead.
Not only does Jesus work in men through the Spirit, but the Son and Spirit are co-equal divine beings (Christ the Lord worked through Paul, but Paul would never have said, "The Lord is Paul," to express the thought that Christ worked through Paul). Not only does Christ work through the Spirit, but Christ and the Spirit are co-equal. Paul is stating the Spirit's place in the Godhead.
c) It is the Father who will send the Spirit (Jn 14:36) as it was the Father who sent the Son (Jn 5:23, 36).
It is also the Son who will send the Spirit "from the Father" (Jn 15:26).
As the Father sent the Son into the world, so the Son will send the Spirit into the world (Jn 16:7).
So the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father.
It is Jesus who shows here (c) three distinct divine persons in disclosing the mystery (never before revealed) of the Trinity, which mystery is the heart of the Christian faith in God.
And that mystery is three distinct divine persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the work of the one God of salvation.

Amen!

 

[Runningman]

And now to pile on. . .for those who have eyes that can see (in contrast to those of 1 Co 2:14), it is presented in abundance:

1) In the work of salvation, the NT shows three distinct divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit (redemption is a function of divinity).

a) Father, Son and Holy Spirit at its beginning (Lk 1:35), at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Mt 3:16-17), and in the work of. atonement (Heb 9:14).
b) The Holy Spirit completing the salvation work of the Father through the Son -- Ac 2:38-39, Ro 8 (v.26), 1 Co 12:4-13 (vv. 4-6), Eph 1:3-14 (v.14), 2:13-22 (v.18), 2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2.
c) The way to enter the kingdom of the Father is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit -- Jn 3:1-15 (vv. 5, 14-15).

2) In the triune name of God, where Father, Son and Holy Spirit are bracketed together:

a) Jesus said this was the name (singular--not names, plural) of the God with whom we have to do and enter into relationship (Mt 28:19).
b) All three are used interchangeably (1 Co 12:4-6).
c) All three are linked in prayer for divine blessing (2 Co 13:14).
d) All three are linked in pronouncement of divine blessing (Rev 1:4-5).

3) In the co-equal relationship pointed to by the close connection in the NT between Father and Son, Father and Spirit, and Son and Spirit:

a) See Ac 16:7, Ro 1:7, 8:9, 27, 1Co 1:3, 2Co 1:2, Gal 1:3, 4:6, Eph 1:2, Php 1:2, 19, 1Th 1:1, 3:11, 2Th 1:2, 8, 12, 2:16, 3:5, 1Pe 1:2.
b) "The Lord Jesus is the Spirit" (2Co 3:17), "the Lord who is the Spirit" (2Co 3:18). The Spirit is one with Jesus in the unity of the Godhead.
Not only does Jesus work in men through the Spirit, but the Son and Spirit are co-equal divine beings (Christ the Lord worked through Paul, but Paul would never have said, "The Lord is Paul," to express the thought that Christ worked through Paul). Not only does Christ work through the Spirit, but Christ and the Spirit are co-equal. Paul is stating the Spirit's place in the Godhead.
c) It is the Father who will send the Spirit (Jn 14:36) as it was the Father who sent the Son (Jn 5:23, 36).
It is also the Son who will send the Spirit "from the Father" (Jn 15:26).
As the Father sent the Son into the world, so the Son will send the Spirit into the world (Jn 16:7).
So the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father.
It is Jesus who shows here (c) three distinct divine persons in disclosing the mystery (never before revealed) of the Trinity, which mystery is the heart of the Christian faith in God.
And that mystery is three distinct divine persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the work of the one God of salvation.

Sorry, but nothing here describes God as three persons in one Godhead. Did Jesus ever claim to be God? Did the Father and have a conversation with Holy Spirit ?

 

[Eleanor]

Sorry, but nothing here describes God as three persons in one Godhead. Did Jesus ever claim to be God? Did the Father and have a conversation with Holy Spirit ?

Sounding brass and tinkling cymbal. . .

Complete failure to address the Biblical arguments presented.

All hat. . .and no cowboy.

 

[Carbon]

Sounding brass and tinkling cymbal. . .

Complete failure to address the Biblical arguments presented.

All hat. . .and no cowboy.

Yep. You did your part and, very well at that. Now it’s time for him to address them.

 

[Eleanor]

Yep. You did your part and, very well at that. Now it’s time for him to address them.

Never happen. . .he can't do so Biblically. . .his unbelief can only deny what he is unable to, and cannot, see (1 Co 2:14), no matter how much Biblical evidence exists.

 

[Carbon]

Never happen. . .he can't do so Biblically. . .his unbelief can only deny what he is unable to, and cannot, see (1 Co 2:14), no matter how much Biblical evidence exists.

Yes I agree.

 

[Ladodgers6]

You got the wrong idea. You were check mated with Matthew 6:6-9. I already gave you your time and comments to make your case and you proved nothing because you can't. So don't make it a Scripture versus Scripture situation.

How does this even check mate the Biblical teaching of the Trinity? Your bias conjecture is misleading you.

 

[Red Baker]

Which verses says that those who don't believe in the Trinity are heretics?

You do not listen very well, which is a problem with all heretics. I never said those words~reason being is this: I reject the the RCC and others teaching concerning the Trinity. I do not see where there were three separate being from eternity, since I cannot support that teaching of what God's word teaches, which is: that God being the ONE LORD GOD, which He is.

1st Corinthians 8:6​

“But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

Deuteronomy 6:4​

“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:”

Malachi 2:10​

“Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?”

I believe in the biblical doctrine of the Trinity which we find in such places as:

2nd Corinthians 13:14​

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

There is a Trinity based upon each respective work in the redemption Of God's elect~but "only" in this respect and in no other sense.
We speak where the word of God speak, and we are silence and do not add our opinion or the opinions of others to the scriptures. When one does thsi, they will have the correct understanding of they mystery of godliness, and not until then. Without controversy it is a great mystery to grasp hold of~yet it is revealed in the scriptures for God's children to see, if they can escape the traditions of men, and the lying tongues of false cults like the JW's.

Please show the verse that describes God as three persons in one Godhead. This should be good.

I have above~I have heard the slander of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and other Unitarians that chose long ago to reject the Bible for their own opinions. All those who deny a plurality in the Godhead according to the work of redemption for God's elect are condemned before they can finish the first chapter of Genesis, when compared to many other scriptures~Hebrews one; Colossians 1; etc. We have John’s glorious testimony of three divine Persons being one God (Ist John 5:7). If you hear that Ist John 5:7 does not belong in the Bible, you are listening to an enemy. Have you never read so much as this:

Matthew 3:16​

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:”

Matthew 3:17​

“And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

One God manifest in three beings!

How is that when Revelation 1:17,18 says the the First and Last died? If being "First and Last" means someone is God, then do you hold the belief that God died?

You blinded fool! Jesus was a complex person, fully God, yet fully man! His humanity died. Jesus was God, but God was not Jesus! It is part of the mystery of godliness, that is hidden from you and rightly so, since you seek ways to keep Jesus as person like you and other fleshly men. Have you never read this:

John 3:13​

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Just as I said, Jesus Christ was a complex person.... fully man, yet fully God, on earth as he was speaking, yet in heaven as God blessed over all, at the same time!

He was indeed both the Son of Man, and the Son of God, as God's only begotten Son, in the manner in which he was begotten.....which made him equal to God. Selah.

 

[Carbon]

You do not listen very well, which is a problem with all heretics. I never said those words~reason being is this: I reject the the RCC and others teaching concerning the Trinity. I do not see where there were three separate being from eternity, since I cannot support that teaching of what God's word teaches, which is: that God being the ONE LORD GOD, which He is.

1st Corinthians 8:6​

“But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

Deuteronomy 6:4​

“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:”

Malachi 2:10​

“Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?”

I believe in the biblical doctrine of the Trinity which we find in such places as:

2nd Corinthians 13:14​

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

There is a Trinity based upon each respective work in the redemption Of God's elect~but "only" in this respect and in no other sense.
We speak where the word of God speak, and we are silence and do not add our opinion or the opinions of others to the scriptures. When one does thsi, they will have the correct understanding of they mystery of godliness, and not until then. Without controversy it is a great mystery to grasp hold of~yet it is revealed in the scriptures for God's children to see, if they can escape the traditions of men, and the lying tongues of false cults like the JW's.


I have above~I have heard the slander of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and other Unitarians that chose long ago to reject the Bible for their own opinions. All those who deny a plurality in the Godhead according to the work of redemption for God's elect are condemned before they can finish the first chapter of Genesis, when compared to many other scriptures~Hebrews one; Colossians 1; etc. We have John’s glorious testimony of three divine Persons being one God (Ist John 5:7). If you hear that Ist John 5:7 does not belong in the Bible, you are listening to an enemy. Have you never read so much as this:

Matthew 3:16​

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:”

Matthew 3:17​

“And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

One God manifest in three beings!


You blinded fool! Jesus was a complex person, fully God, yet fully man! His humanity died. Jesus was God, but God was not Jesus! It is part of the mystery of godliness, that is hidden from you and rightly so, since you seek ways to keep Jesus as person like you and other fleshly men. Have you never read this:

John 3:13​

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Just as I said, Jesus Christ was a complex person.... fully man, yet fully God, on earth as he was speaking, yet in heaven as God blessed over all, at the same time!

He was indeed both the Son of Man, and the Son of God, as God's only begotten Son, in the manner in which he was begotten.....which made him equal to God. Selah.

Amen!

 

[Eleanor]

You do not listen very well, which is a problem with all heretics. I never said those words~reason being is this: I reject the the RCC and others teaching concerning the Trinity. I do not see where there were three separate being from eternity,

There are not three separate beings. . .there are three distinct persons in one Being, God.

 

[Carbon]

There are not three separate beings. . .there are three distinct persons in one Being, God.

Amen!

That's what scripture teaches.

 

[CrowCross]

Sounding brass and tinkling cymbal. . .

Complete failure to address the Biblical arguments presented.

All hat. . .and no cowboy.

You're arguing with the spirit of the anti-christ.

 

[Carbon]

You're arguing with the spirit of the anti-christ.

You do have a point there.

 

[Tambora]

Did Jesus ever claim to be God?

Yep.
Jesus states it explicitly to Caiaphas the high priest in Matthew 26:64, and you would know that if you were familiar with ancient Jewish beliefs and their literary culture of titles of their God.

Matthew 26: ESV​

64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”​

Caiaphas the high priest, learned in scripture, knew the literary implication immediately and is why those Jewish leaders demanded death for blasphemy.

65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy.​

You see, Jesus quoted .........

Daniel 7 ESV​

(13) “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.​

.......... and the ancients knew that being referred to as cloud rider was a literary description only used of deity.


This was the same literary description used of many ancient cultures as a description of their deity (such as Zeus, Baal, etc).
It was the same literary description used by the ancient Jews of their own deity.
Such as:

Deuteronomy 33​

“There is none like the God of Jeshurun,​

Who rides the heavens to your help,​

And through the skies in His majesty.​

​

Isaiah 19​

(1) The oracle concerning Egypt.​

Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;​

​

Psalms 68​

(32) O kingdoms of the earth, sing to God; sing praises to the Lord, Selah​

(33) to him who rides in the heavens, the ancient heavens; behold, he sends out his voice, his mighty voice.​

​

Psalm 104​

(3) He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters;​

He makes the clouds His chariot;​

Daniel 7 ESV​

(13) “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.​

Not only was that description a literary use only of ancient culture's deities, but so were descriptions such as: Most High, First and Last, etc. etc. etc.


The above verse (Daniel 7:13) was just one of many scriptural reasons that ancient Jews had believed for centuries their GOD was a unity consisting of more than just one singular person.
To learn much more on this subject there are 2 excellent books (documented to the hilt) that go through many OT scriptures explaining why they believed this.
Both of these books were authored by Jews who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah, so you cannot say they are biased towards a "Christian" spin.
View attachment 843
Written by Alan F. Segal

View attachment 844
Written by Benjamin D. Sommer



That YHWH is a unity is not a new view that started in the 1st century time of Jesus or afterwards, it is ancient.

 

[Runningman]

Sounding brass and tinkling cymbal. . .

Complete failure to address the Biblical arguments presented.

All hat. . .and no cowboy.

I asked you an easy question that you should be able to answer directly. You responded with a maze of verses and passages that must be interpreted in your way or else it can't be comprehended in the "correct" way. Nothing there plainly and directly says what your premise asserts. I am asking for which Scripture explains or describes the Trinity directly in God's, Jesus', or the disciples' own words. So far my questions remains open and unanswered.

 

[Runningman]

Yep.
Jesus states it explicitly to Caiaphas the high priest in Matthew 26:64, and you would know that if you were familiar with ancient Jewish beliefs and their literary culture of titles of their God.

Matthew 26: ESV​

64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”​

Caiaphas the high priest, learned in scripture, knew the literary implication immediately and is why those Jewish leaders demanded death for blasphemy.

65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy.​

You see, Jesus quoted .........

Daniel 7 ESV​

(13) “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.​

.......... and the ancients knew that being referred to as cloud rider was a literary description only used of deity.


This was the same literary description used of many ancient cultures as a description of their deity (such as Zeus, Baal, etc).
It was the same literary description used by the ancient Jews of their own deity.
Such as:

Deuteronomy 33​

“There is none like the God of Jeshurun,​

Who rides the heavens to your help,​

And through the skies in His majesty.​

​

Isaiah 19​

(1) The oracle concerning Egypt.​

Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;​

​

Psalms 68​

(32) O kingdoms of the earth, sing to God; sing praises to the Lord, Selah​

(33) to him who rides in the heavens, the ancient heavens; behold, he sends out his voice, his mighty voice.​

​

Psalm 104​

(3) He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters;​

He makes the clouds His chariot;​

Daniel 7 ESV​

(13) “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.​

Not only was that description a literary use only of ancient culture's deities, but so were descriptions such as: Most High, First and Last, etc. etc. etc.


The above verse (Daniel 7:13) was just one of many scriptural reasons that ancient Jews had believed for centuries their GOD was a unity consisting of more than just one singular person.
To learn much more on this subject there are 2 excellent books (documented to the hilt) that go through many OT scriptures explaining why they believed this.
Both of these books were authored by Jews who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah, so you cannot say they are biased towards a "Christian" spin.
View attachment 843
Written by Alan F. Segal

View attachment 844
Written by Benjamin D. Sommer



That YHWH is a unity is not a new view that started in the 1st century time of Jesus or afterwards, it is ancient.

That a lot of words for Jesus never saying "I am God." I am seeing a pattern here. Every question I have asked has, thus far, has been responded to without actually saying directly. So is it possible you got it all wrong and misunderstood Jesus?