The Sign Gifts have ceased

[Wordsmith]

Remember to note who the sign was for. Things are pretty specific and confined.

It is also specific and clear from the relevant context the no sign would be given except the sign of Jonas. So what is your point?

 

[EarlyActs]

It is also specific and clear from the relevant context the no sign would be given except the sign of Jonas. So what is your point?

No single text is the answer. The one you picked is not even necessarily about this question.

I was referring to the sign of the language gift (Acts 2) that helped the Gospel get rapidly out to all the known world. In 1 Cor 14, Paul even reminds people at that distant place, through a quote from Isaiah, that the language gift was a sign to the Jews that the Messianic mission had come, and they needed to help in it.

 

[ChristB4us]

Remember to note who the sign was for. Things are pretty specific and confined.

@Wordsmith

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

 

[ChristB4us]

It is also specific and clear from the relevant context the no sign would be given except the sign of Jonas. So what is your point?

Those who seek a sign from Jesus in order to believe is different than a sign given to unbelievers that were not seeking so that they would believe.

Course, not everyone believes at the hearing of the gospel.

 

[Wordsmith]

@Wordsmith

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

This is but one scriptural reason and use for tongues. You ignore the rest in your zeal to eliminate tongues from the Body of Christ today.

 

[ChristB4us]

This is but one scriptural reason and use for tongues. You ignore the rest in your zeal to eliminate tongues from the Body of Christ today.

Tongues cannot be for private use if you wish to claim God's gift of tongues for use in the body of Christ today as in the assembly as it will come with interpretation or else they are to be silent.

Tongues for private use is the epitome of confusion which God is not the author of.

Since tongues has to come with interpretation in the assembly so that the tongue speaker may understand it for that tongue to be fruitful to himself as a tongue speaker, then there is no way tongues can be for private use.

This false tongue albeit it is real and supernatural and not always faked by those desiring to fit in, was emphasized in that Welsh Revival in 1904-05 and then again in the Azusa Street Revival by placing the spotlight on that baptism with the holy Ghost with evidence of tongues thereby ignoring Jesus's warning that by doing so is committing spiritual adultery.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So they have departed from faith & gave heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils per 1 Timothy 4:1.

Jesus wared this church of His again for speaking like unto Satan per Isaiah 8:19 in Revelation.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Believers need His help to shun that kind of tongue and pray normally before the Bridegroom comes and seek no more for a filling of the Spirit as other signs were shown at Azusa Street Revival like bring drunk in the spirit thus proving tongues without interpretation is being done by the author of confusion and it is not by God Himself..

 

[Wordsmith]

Tongues cannot be for private use if you wish to claim God's gift of tongues for use in the body of Christ today as in the assembly as it will come with interpretation or else they are to be silent.

Tongues for private use is the epitome of confusion which God is not the author of.

Since tongues has to come with interpretation in the assembly so that the tongue speaker may understand it for that tongue to be fruitful to himself as a tongue speaker, then there is no way tongues can be for private use.

This false tongue albeit it is real and supernatural and not always faked by those desiring to fit in, was emphasized in that Welsh Revival in 1904-05 and then again in the Azusa Street Revival by placing the spotlight on that baptism with the holy Ghost with evidence of tongues thereby ignoring Jesus's warning that by doing so is committing spiritual adultery.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So they have departed from faith & gave heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils per 1 Timothy 4:1.

Jesus wared this church of His again for speaking like unto Satan per Isaiah 8:19 in Revelation.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Believers need His help to shun that kind of tongue and pray normally before the Bridegroom comes and seek no more for a filling of the Spirit as other signs were shown at Azusa Street Revival like bring drunk in the spirit thus proving tongues without interpretation is being done by the author of confusion and it is not by God Himself..

1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

I'll believe Paul on this matter, thanks for your input.

I would be carful of implying this is satanic!

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

 

[ChristB4us]

1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Note interpretation of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Referring to the language of men,

1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Finish that verse in context with the next verse or else you are missing what he was really exhorting there.

1 Corinthians 14;19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

yet believers today covet to speak in tongues for private use.

1 Corinthians 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Paul is saying when he speaks in tongues, as manifested by the Holy Spirit, he is praying that somebody else will interpret that tongue so he will understand it and therefore that tongue will be fruitful to himself. It is his spirit that is praying; not the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Note groanings that are not being uttered hence in silence; not by means of using God's gift of tongues.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

This "he" is separate form us in searching our hearts ( it is Jesus per Hebrews 4:12-16 ) and separate from the Spirit to know the mind of the Spirit as this is this "he" that makes intercessions for the saints in according to the will of God because there is only One Mediator between God & men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5 Why? because all power has bene given unto the Son Matthew 28:18 & He alone answers prayers at the permissive will of the Father so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers John 14:13-14.

I'll believe Paul on this matter, thanks for your input.

Paul never endorsed tongues for private use but instead spoke against such a thing here.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

That means the body of Christ in that assembly and not individually.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

None of the gifts are received by seeking a baptism with the Holy Ghost. This testifies to the working of the gifts in that assembly.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

That proves tongues were never for private use but tongue speakers today wrest the scriptures in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter as if Paul was exhorting believers to seek the gift of tongues over prophesy instead.

I would be carful of implying this is satanic!

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Read on

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

What did they do by those dumb idols? Speak in gibberish nonsense.

The History of Tongues: Pagan Practices

Read that short article at that link. there is more on it of you wish to study it further but the point is made that for God to call those sinners out from those idols and that kind of gibberish nonsense tongues, then God will not mimic that tongue at all for then how can sinners know they have departed from those spirits and that tongue or how can the church know they have repented?

So to abstian from all appearances of evil is why God's gift of tongues is not for private use.

 

[TB2]

Note interpretation of tongues.

Referring to the language of men,

Finish that verse in context with the next verse or else you are missing what he was really exhorting there.

1 Corinthians 14;19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

yet believers today covet to speak in tongues for private use.

Paul is saying when he speaks in tongues, as manifested by the Holy Spirit, he is praying that somebody else will interpret that tongue so he will understand it and therefore that tongue will be fruitful to himself. It is his spirit that is praying; not the Holy Spirit.

Note groanings that are not being uttered hence in silence; not by means of using God's gift of tongues.

This "he" is separate form us in searching our hearts ( it is Jesus per Hebrews 4:12-16 ) and separate from the Spirit to know the mind of the Spirit as this is this "he" that makes intercessions for the saints in according to the will of God because there is only One Mediator between God & men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5 Why? because all power has bene given unto the Son Matthew 28:18 & He alone answers prayers at the permissive will of the Father so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers John 14:13-14.

Paul never endorsed tongues for private use but instead spoke against such a thing here.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

That means the body of Christ in that assembly and not individually.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

None of the gifts are received by seeking a baptism with the Holy Ghost. This testifies to the working of the gifts in that assembly.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

That proves tongues were never for private use but tongue speakers today wrest the scriptures in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter as if Paul was exhorting believers to seek the gift of tongues over prophesy instead.


Read on

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

What did they do by those dumb idols? Speak in gibberish nonsense.

The History of Tongues: Pagan Practices

Read that short article at that link. there is more on it of you wish to study it further but the point is made that for God to call those sinners out from those idols and that kind of gibberish nonsense tongues, then God will not mimic that tongue at all for then how can sinners know they have departed from those spirits and that tongue or how can the church know they have repented?

So to abstian from all appearances of evil is why God's gift of tongues is not for private use.

You are doing *a lot* of interpretation (to try to prove your point of view). We must let Scripture speak for itself.

1 Corinthians 14

2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

1 Corinthians 14 makes it plain that speaking in tongues (as understood by Paul) is indeed a way to personally commune with God for "anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God."---that's pretty clear. Speaks to God, not people; utters mysteries in the Spirit.

 

[Wordsmith]

Paul never endorsed tongues for private use but instead spoke against such a thing here.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

That means the body of Christ in that assembly and not individually.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

None of the gifts are received by seeking a baptism with the Holy Ghost. This testifies to the working of the gifts in that assembly.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

That proves tongues were never for private use but tongue speakers today wrest the scriptures in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter as if Paul was exhorting believers to seek the gift of tongues over prophesy instead.

WRONG!
Paul described both tongues in church and in private. Two totally separate things in function.

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Yes verses 12-13 refer to the church

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Paul describes why tongues should be interpreted in the church.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

More reasons why tongues spoken in the church are to be interpreted.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Paul did not specify here in church or private only that he speaks in tongues more than them all.

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue

"Yet in the church" makes a distinction between where he spoke in tongues. Paul just said he speaks in tongues more than them all YET IN THE CHURCH he would rather speak with understanding.

You are misusing, and misunderstanding scripture to try to remove something God placed in the church.

Read on

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

What did they do by those dumb idols? Speak in gibberish nonsense.

The History of Tongues: Pagan Practices

Read that short article at that link. there is more on it of you wish to study it further but the point is made that for God to call those sinners out from those idols and that kind of gibberish nonsense tongues, then God will not mimic that tongue at all for then how can sinners know they have departed from those spirits and that tongue or how can the church know they have repented?

So to abstian from all appearances of evil is why God's gift of tongues is not for private use.

You are the second person who took this track with me the other was a Freewill Baptist pastor who actually claims he had spoken in tongues in private prayer.. Go figure!

Paul is NOT saying tongues or any of the gifts are "dumb idols" or used in worship with dumb idols, that is pure nonsense and in the context of the book go 1 Corinthians not even close to being scriptural! Paul would not call something he claimed to do more than them all a "dumb idol"!

1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

"Were" is past not the present time Paul was speaking to them. Paul spent two chapters in 1 Corinthians talking about those idols (1 Corinthians chapter 8 & 10) and they were not any of the gifts of the Spirit or tongues in particular.

They were in past times carried away to dumb idols, chapters 8 &10.

You are totally misusing Scripture with your private interpretation to infer the use of tongues as Paul described in 1 Corinthians was used in pagen practices. You are so far off of the reservation here all I can do is pray for you.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

This describes the private use of tongues.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Paul is making the distinction here , if you are going to pray in tongues in church they should be interpreted so the whole church can be edified and not just the speaker.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

 

[TB2]

It seems there are two basic yet separate questions: (1) Does Scripture expressly teach cessationism? And (2) are modern charismatic practices legit Holy Spirit based ones?

Ignoring the second question for the moment (which in many ways amounts to a fruitless debate of skeptics telling claimants what they're experiencing is not what they think they're experiencing when the skeptics don't really know or have personal firsthand knowledge of said experiences); and focusing just on the first question. Regardless, of whether one believes that today's charismatic practices are real, fake, or demonic. Regardless of whether one believes in cessationism or continuationism for today....

*Even if* cessationism is true, it is still not expressly taught in the Bible. There is no "smoking gun" Scripture that 'proves' cessationism Scripturally. It requires a series of interpretations and inferences that could be interpreted a different way and that are interpreted a different way by other Christians.

 

[Wordsmith]

It seems there are two basic yet separate questions: (1) Does Scripture expressly teach cessationism? And (2) are modern charismatic practices legit Holy Spirit based ones?

Ignoring the second question for the moment (which in many ways amounts to a fruitless debate of skeptics telling claimants what they're experiencing is not what they think they're experiencing when the skeptics don't really know or have personal firsthand knowledge of said experiences); and focusing just on the first question. Regardless, of whether one believes that today's charismatic practices are real, fake, or demonic. Regardless of whether one believes in cessationism or continuationism for today....

*Even if* cessationism is true, it is still not expressly taught in the Bible. There is no "smoking gun" Scripture that 'proves' cessationism Scripturally. It requires a series of interpretations and inferences that could be interpreted a different way and that are by other Christians.

Intersting perspective.

If I were not a Christian and were looking at this issue purely from a secular stance it would be far easier to believe the removal of miracles from the church was demonic than it would to believe things described in Scripture as edifying and helpful to the body of Christ were pagan practices. just MHO.

It is a fact there are fake healers, fake Christians ,fake tongues, false or fake prophecies. false teachers, false preachers and the list goes on. Satan is the faker in chief, but that in no way takes away from what God does for his children.

 

[Wordsmith]

I posted this video on another thread it is relevant here as well. I knew these people. Marquita was my pastor's wife in the 1980"s, her mom we called mom Kelton, and she had a life time of testimonies of miracles. It makes my blood boil when so called scriptural scholars denigrate miracles of God and try to convince the church this has all passed away. God still performs miracles for His children when He is not hindered or cast out of unbelieving churches.

 

[TB2]

Haven't watched your video yet, but regarding the prior comment you made, true. Yes, unfortunately the real is always mixed with the counterfeit. I can certainly understand the cessationist side in light of all the counterfeits that are out there, and the desire to be cautious, and the just motive to stand for truth and combat the counterfeit. But we can't go to the other extreme and throw the Holy Spirit "baby" out with the bathwater.

Perhaps, we (believers in general) get too hung up on all our different categories. Such as arguments over whether the gift of healing is still for today, when *BOTH* cessationists and continuationists *BOTH* believe that God still can do miracles and heal, and still does. Is there a point, then, where this debate is just academic and doesn't really matter? Does it really matter whether or not the gift of healing is still for today, when *BOTH* cessationists and continuationists believe God still heals today? Shouldn't we just rejoice and glorify God for that?

It seems we often try to put God in these neat little compartments of "God heals" but "God doesn't give the gift of healing." I'm not seeing much difference. Obviously, there is a difference theologically, but not pragmatically, in terms of transformative effect.

*I don't think the one who gets healed cares much whether or not it was by the gift of healing. It's all the power of God regardless! Amen

 

[Wordsmith]

Haven't watched your video yet, but regarding the prior comment you made, true. Yes, unfortunately the real is always mixed with the counterfeit. I can certainly understand the cessationist side in light of all the counterfeits that are out there, and the desire to be cautious, and the just motive to stand for truth and combat the counterfeit. But we can't go to the other extreme and throw the Holy Spirit "baby" out with the bathwater.

Perhaps, we (believers in general) get too hung up on all our different categories. Such as arguments over whether the gift of healing is still for today, when *BOTH* cessationists and continuationists *BOTH* believe that God still can do miracles and heal, and still does. Is there a point, then, where this debate is just academic and doesn't really matter? Does it really matter whether or not the gift of healing is still for today, when *BOTH* cessationists and continuationists believe God still heals today? Shouldn't we just rejoice and glorify God for that?

It seems we often try to put God in these neat little compartments of "God heals" but "God doesn't give the gift of healing." I'm not seeing much difference. Obviously, there is a difference theologically, but not pragmatically, in terms of transformative effect.

*I don't think the one who gets healed cares much whether or not it was by the gift of healing. It's all the power of God regardless! Amen

It will be worth your time to watch.

I have myself been healed in a revival service through a word of knowledge , a gift of healing and the laying on of hands. I have testified on some threads here of this. You are right it really doesn't matter how God chooses to work but in my case the evangelist whom I did not know told me what my issue was and I had never spoken to anyone about it. That was a word of knowledge he received from the Lord. So you see I am going to be very hard to convince this has all passed away.

I do believe bad teaching on this this is at the very least is a hindrance to the body of Christ. So on this, a debate forum I will continue to speak up. Thanks for your common sense and understanding for different views. We all believe what we believe until the Holy Spirit convinces us differently. I have had to change my views on some things from scripture. None of us have it all perfectly discerned.

 

[ChristB4us]

Paul described both tongues in church and in private. Two totally separate things in function.

No. You and other modern day tongue speakers for tongues for private use should not read your experiences into the scripture. You need to ask Jesus Christ for confirmation that what you are doing in believing that tongue is for private use because it does not come with interpretation because the world speaks in that same kind of supernatural tongue in Roman idolatry and the occult.

How can you abstain from all appearances of evil if the world had that kind of tongue that you errantly believe is for private use?

How can sinners that come to Jesus Christ know they have departed from those spirits and that kind of tongue if the church believes God's gift of tongues can also be for private use when it supposedly does not come with interpretation and sounds like the very same kind of tongue they were used to in their former Roman idolatry or the occult?

How can the church know that these sinners come coming out of Roman Idolatry or the occult have repented if they still speak the same way?

So let us address how you are reading tongues for private use into the scripture as other modern day tongue users are doing.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Paul did not specify here in church or private only that he speaks in tongues more than them all.

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue

"Yet in the church" makes a distinction between where he spoke in tongues. Paul just said he speaks in tongues more than them all YET IN THE CHURCH he would rather speak with understanding.

You are misusing, and misunderstanding scripture to try to remove something God placed in the church.

Actually you are. Here is another testimony from Paul for why you are misapplying Paul's words here.

2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

See that? Now apply that to Paul's words to that same assembly.
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Now how can Paul say that in verse 18 without two or three witnesses in that assembly to confirm that?

Therefore Paul was never testifying to using tongues for private use. How can he, with no witnesses to confirm that? It would be considered a false witness for testifying of himself like that if he was ever really using tongues for private use or in private.

You enlarged and boldened the words "yet in the church" in verse 19 as if he was inferring private use when he is expounding off of speaking in tongues more than them all in church by emphasizing that he would rather speak five words normally that he understands and as the church understands rather than a whole bunch of words in another language that Paul did not understand for why he would pray that another would interpret that tongue so that he would understand it and be truly edified and thus fruitful to himself.

Since tongues requires interpretation from another in the assembly, for the tongue speaker to be edified and thereby that tongue is fruitful to himself as a tongue speaker, then tongues can never be for private use for then why would he need an interpreter in the assembly?

You guys want to believe tongues for private use is of God for why you are unwittingly wresting the scriptures to validate that kind of tongues which was in the world before Pentecost came with God's gift of tongues which is for God to speak unto the people in their native tongue AND therefore cannot be for private use at all.

May the Lord help you to see the truth in His words that you do not need that kind of tongues for private use at all & to shun it to pray normally.

 

[TB2]

No. You and other modern day tongue speakers for tongues for private use should not read your experiences into the scripture. You need to ask Jesus Christ for confirmation that what you are doing in believing that tongue is for private use because it does not come with interpretation because the world speaks in that same kind of supernatural tongue in Roman idolatry and the occult.

How can you abstain from all appearances of evil if the world had that kind of tongue that you errantly believe is for private use?

How can sinners that come to Jesus Christ know they have departed from those spirits and that kind of tongue if the church believes God's gift of tongues can also be for private use when it supposedly does not come with interpretation and sounds like the very same kind of tongue they were used to in their former Roman idolatry or the occult?

How can the church know that these sinners come coming out of Roman Idolatry or the occult have repented if they still speak the same way?

So let us address how you are reading tongues for private use into the scripture as other modern day tongue users are doing.

Actually you are. Here is another testimony from Paul for why you are misapplying Paul's words here.

2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

See that? Now apply that to Paul's words to that same assembly.
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Now how can Paul say that in verse 18 without two or three witnesses in that assembly to confirm that?

Therefore Paul was never testifying to using tongues for private use. How can he, with no witnesses to confirm that? It would be considered a false witness for testifying of himself like that if he was ever really using tongues for private use or in private.

You enlarged and boldened the words "yet in the church" in verse 19 as if he was inferring private use when he is expounding off of speaking in tongues more than them all in church by emphasizing that he would rather speak five words normally that he understands and as the church understands rather than a whole bunch of words in another language that Paul did not understand for why he would pray that another would interpret that tongue so that he would understand it and be truly edified and thus fruitful to himself.

Since tongues requires interpretation from another in the assembly, for the tongue speaker to be edified and thereby that tongue is fruitful to himself as a tongue speaker, then tongues can never be for private use for then why would he need an interpreter in the assembly?

You guys want to believe tongues for private use is of God for why you are unwittingly wresting the scriptures to validate that kind of tongues which was in the world before Pentecost came with God's gift of tongues which is for God to speak unto the people in their native tongue AND therefore cannot be for private use at all.

May the Lord help you to see the truth in His words that you do not need that kind of tongues for private use at all & to shun it to pray normally.

I'm afraid it's the other way around, my friend.

1 Corinthians 14:1-2

"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit."

Scripture is clear. Speaking in tongues can, indeed, be a way to commune with God. Paul understood the tongue-speaking in the church at Corinth to be "speaking to God," "not to people," "utter[ing] mysteries in the Spirit. And Paul wished that "every one of [them] would speak in tongues" (v. 5) (but just not to do so in corporate worship without interpretation); and Paul "thank[ed] God" that he "spoke in tongues more than all of [them]" (v. 18). And "do not forbid tongues" (v. 39), but just make sure everything is done in an "orderly and fitting way." (v. 40).

Scripture literally says "don't forbid tongues." Scripture literally says "one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to people, but to God."

That (above) is the truth of His Word. It's literally what the Bible says.

 

[TB2]

It will be worth your time to watch.

I have myself been healed in a revival service through a word of knowledge , a gift of healing and the laying on of hands. I have testified on some threads here of this. You are right it really doesn't matter how God chooses to work but in my case the evangelist whom I did not know told me what my issue was and I had never spoken to anyone about it. That was a word of knowledge he received from the Lord. So you see I am going to be very hard to convince this has all passed away.

I do believe bad teaching on this this is at the very least is a hindrance to the body of Christ. So on this, a debate forum I will continue to speak up. Thanks for your common sense and understanding for different views. We all believe what we believe until the Holy Spirit convinces us differently. I have had to change my views on some things from scripture. None of us have it all perfectly discerned.

As I've heard it said, charismatics' theology of the Holy Spirit tends to not be as accurate as their experience of it, while non-charasmatic theology tends to be more accurate, but not experienced.

I think it was Wigglesworth (?) who spoke of the need for both the Word AND the Spirit; not one or the other.

Thankfully, charismatic theological understanding (academically) has become much better with scholars like Wayne Grudem and Gordon Fee, and others, who have helped fill in the gap.

What you (and most charismatics) call the gift of "words of knowledge," I would argue is more accurately called the gift of *prophecy*. But does it really matter? Is that just hair-splitting? Probably.

Either way, it doesn't change the fact that Immanuel "God with us" is what it's all about. That's what it all comes down to: God's Presence. That's what the Bible and atoning death and resurrection are all about: restoring access to God's Presence. And we now have that available to us, what wasn't available before in the Old Testament: God's own Spirit present, residing with us, indwelling us.

Gordon Fee has a great book on it: "God's Empowering Presence." And as you know, once you get a taste of it, nothing else satisfies. It's not about chasing some experience. It's about chasing God. Seeking God. Seeking God's Presence.

I, too, have experienced things of which you speak... and even more. Things I rarely talk about because no one would believe me and would think I'm crazy (I would think the same!). But I can't unsee what I've seen, including healings, and prophecies, and physical manifestations materializing from thin air right before my eyes (and I'm a scientist, so I don't say these things lightly). And as wonderful as all those miracles are, even while they were happening, that was never the focus. The focus was still always on the Giver.

Don't seek the gifts, seek the Giver, right?

In my experience, the works of the Holy Spirit (all of them--- miracles but also the moral fruits of the Holy Spirit) are the (super)natural result of time spent in God's Presence. The more I commune with God, the more those HS works are present too and evident in my life. And vice versa, I've had plenty of times where I'm not as close as I should be and then the gifts and fruits aren't evident.

And if you don't mind me sharing a personal note, do you want to know for me personally what I've found to be one of the greatest miracles? It's actually the fruits of the Spirit. I became a believer (saved by grace) at an early age and then of course you're told now that you're a Christian saved by grace, you have to try really, really, really hard to be a good little Christian. One can be a Christian indwelt by the Holy Spirit but still be closed and limiting the Holy Spirit's transforming power in our lives. To me, that's one of the greatest miracles. The Holy Spirit's real, tangible, manifest empowering presence that empowers me (us) to live and bear those moral fruits. In hindsight, I can't fathom ever going back to what seems the experience of many believers having to try really hard to be 'good'. The thought of it is exhausting. In God's Presence we are supernaturally enabled to live the life we were called and meant to live.

 

[ChristB4us]

I'm afraid it's the other way around, my friend.

1 Corinthians 14:1-2

"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit."

Scripture is clear. Speaking in tongues can, indeed, be a way to commune with God.

@Wordsmith

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

You have to discern with him the first verse as why he is comparing tongues against prophesy in the second verse for why Paul is exhorting believers that are zealous for spiritual gifts to seek the gift of prophesy even over tongues as it is not a stand alone gift.

Then you have to discern with Him if Paul meant that he is speaking actually to God, then how can he be speaking mysteries to God?

Not everything in Greek is translated very well into English. Evidence of that is in the following verses in that same chapter.

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Now what can you draw away from that, if tongues can be for private use as speaking to God? Is Paul saying the man is talking to himself and to God thus a crazy person for why he should be ordered to be silent in the church? No.

in this practice when you have two or three speak in tongues one by one and another interpret that tongue, you will bound to have a foreign visitor stand up and speak out of turn in his native tongue as not manifested by the Holy Spirit as evidence because there is no interpretation coming. That is why he is instructed to be silent because he is not speaking in tongues as manifested by the Holy Spirit but speaking his natural foreign tongue thus he understands what he is saying as God does too; not that he is speaking to himself and to God.

Otherwise how can Paul command him to be made silent when no interpretation when he ended that chapter to not forbid to speak in tongues?

How can Paul say if no interpretation to be silent if the Holy Spirit is really using tongues for private use? Who is Paul to say to the Holy Spirit that you have to do that in private and so be silent if the Spirit wants to use tongues for private use at that time? So tongues are not for private use.

And so going back to verse 2 for when a believer speaks in tongues it is a mystery to those around them until it is interpreted even though God understands it because the holy Spirit is manifesting that tongue; not that the Holy Spirit is speaking mysteries to God.

If we remind ourselves that Paul is showing why prophesy is better than tongues in comparing the two, He may help us to see that in context of that chapter, tongues is not a stand alone gift when we continue reading.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Now this verse 4 is how tongue speakers today errantly apply that to mean tongues for private use and yet as we read on Paul exhorts those that speak in tongues, to pray that somebody else will interpret that tongue because until it is interpreted, it is unfruitful to himself. It is not the Holy Spirit praying but Paul's spirit is praying for that interpretation to come while the Holy Spirit is manifesting tongues in the assembly.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

So verse 4 is true when tongues is interpreted but not by itself. By taking verses 2 & 4 out of context of that chapter for what Paul is trying to do in proving the gift of prophesy is way better than tongues because tongues is not a stand alone gift for any believer to seek after is just missing the point of his exhortation entirely.

Paul made it clear in case anyone may minsunderstood Him for what tongues was for in that chapter.

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
So if believers or unbelievers come in and see a believer praying in tongues for private use, they will say that believer is mad as well.

Paul understood the tongue-speaking in the church at Corinth to be "speaking to God," "not to people," "utter[ing] mysteries in the Spirit. And Paul wished that "every one of [them] would speak in tongues" (v. 5) (but just not to do so in corporate worship without interpretation); and Paul "thank[ed] God" that he "spoke in tongues more than all of [them]" (v. 18). And "do not forbid tongues" (v. 39), but just make sure everything is done in an "orderly and fitting way." (v. 40).

Scripture literally says "don't forbid tongues." Scripture literally says "one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to people, but to God."

That (above) is the truth of His Word. It's literally what the Bible says.

Paul also set the precedent in chapter 12 for what the gifts of the spirit are for and that is to profit the body of Christ and never intended for private use by any member of the body.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
That is proof before that tongue speakers today are wresting the words in chapter 14 in trying to imply and infer God's gift of tongues are for private use when it never was. That supernatural tongue of gibberish nonsense has been in the world of idolatry & the occult before Pentecost.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

The History of Tongues: Pagan Practices

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

[TB2]

Thank you for you comments @ChristB4us (I like your screen name!)

Then you have to discern with Him if Paul meant that he is speaking actually to God, then how can he be speaking mysteries to God?

Because 1 Corinthians 14.2 doesn't say he's speaking mysteries "to God" or that what is being spoken is a mystery "to God"; but that he "utters mysteries by the Spirit." It is a mystery to humans, including the one speaking in tongues.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Now what can you draw away from that, if tongues can be for private use as speaking to God? Is Paul saying the man is talking to himself and to God thus a crazy person for why he should be ordered to be silent in the church? No.

The answer to your question is in the verse you cite: Paul says "let him keep silent in church." It doesn't say you have to be silent at home.

Not everything in Greek is translated very well into English. Evidence of that is in the following verses in that same chapter.

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

The "unknown" translation in the KJV is not supported by the best manuscripts, which do not contain the word "unknown" at all. This is reflected in the New King James, which along with most modern translations today reads simply, "if anyone speaks in a tongue."

in this practice when you have two or three speak in tongues one by one and another interpret that tongue, you will bound to have a foreign visitor stand up and speak out of turn in his native tongue as not manifested by the Holy Spirit as evidence because there is no interpretation coming. That is why he is instructed to be silent because he is not speaking in tongues as manifested by the Holy Spirit but speaking his natural foreign tongue thus he understands what he is saying as God does too; not that he is speaking to himself and to God.

That is your personal interpretation. And it's an interpretation that is not supported by Scripture. How do we know this? Because the gift of tongues and the gift of tongue interpretation is a supernatural gift of the Spirit. A "foreign visitor" speaking a foreign language that people don't understand is not a gift of the Spirit, nor is the ability of someone to translate/interpret said foreign language. A non-Christian, pagan unbeliever could do that. (Paul is speaking by analogy. He wasn't speaking of an actual foreigner speaking a foreign language).

How can Paul say if no interpretation to be silent if the Holy Spirit is really using tongues for private use? Who is Paul to say to the Holy Spirit that you have to do that in private and so be silent if the Spirit wants to use tongues for private use at that time? So tongues are not for private use.

Because Paul doesn't say to be silent completely, but to be silent in the church. Paul is not forbidding tongues altogether, just in corporate worship if there is no interpreter. Nor is Paul telling the Holy Spirit to be silent, but the person doing the speaking. (Tongue speaking, like prophecy, like teaching, is under the control of the person. It is a gift that is given by the Holy Spirit. It is not the Holy Spirit possessing someone and forcing them to act uncontrollably).

If we remind ourselves that Paul is showing why prophesy is better than tongues in comparing the two

Ahhh! But it's not better. No gift of the HS is better than another. People always miss the "unless" part.

1 Cor 14.5: :The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified."

The whole context of the chapter is in reference to corporate worship and how everything in corporate worship be "orderly and fitting" (v. 40). Prophesy is better than tongues in corporate worship but only if there is no interpretation. It's all about edification of all believers during corporate worship.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Now this verse 4 is how tongue speakers today errantly apply that to mean tongues for private use and yet as we read on Paul exhorts those that speak in tongues, to pray that somebody else will interpret that tongue because until it is interpreted, it is unfruitful to himself. It is not the Holy Spirit praying but Paul's spirit is praying for that interpretation to come while the Holy Spirit is manifesting tongues in the assembly.

Correct. He who speaks in tongues edifies himself, the same way that someone who prays "normally" in private, and worships in private is personally edified.

"26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God."

This is all in reference to corporate worship. Paul doesn't say it must be interpreted to edify the tongue speaker but to edify the Body. 1 Corinthians 14.2 already says the one speaking in tongues speaks to God uttering mysteries by the Spirit and is edified.

By taking verses 2 & 4 out of context of that chapter for what Paul is trying to do in proving the gift of prophesy is way better than tongues because tongues is not a stand alone gift for any believer to seek after is just missing the point of his exhortation entirely

Again, incorrect. Paul does not say "prophesy is way better." Nor does Paul say "prophesy is better," period. Paul is talking about corporate worship. Prophesy is better in corporate worship unless one interprets.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Correct! That is why you shouldn't speak in tongues in corporate worship unless there is tongue interpretation.

So if believers or unbelievers come in and see a believer praying in tongues for private use, they will say that believer is mad as well.

Not at all, because if someone else sees it, that wouldn't be in private now, would it?

Paul also set the precedent in chapter 12 for what the gifts of the spirit are for and that is to profit the body of Christ and never intended for private use by any member of the body.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Correct. The gifts are to edify the whole Body of Christ. But that doesn't preclude private use, any more than it precludes private worship and private prayer. You are forgetting the spiritual dimension to this. I know people with the gift of intercession who edify the church by spending hours in private prayer, praying for other people. The same is true for private prayer in tongues.

A lot of people don't understand this element and the beauty of spiritual language. Paul "prayed in the spirit" AND "prayed in understanding." There are times when words fail us. Where known words cannot express the greatness and glory of God, or the deepest pain and ache for friends, family, believers suffering around the world. Private prayer in tongues is a powerful Spirit-enabled gift God gives some believers to do this when words fail us. It can be used to edify oneself but also to edify the body whether corporately with tongues and interpretation, or privately praying for others and the Body of Christ "in the Spirit" and "in understanding."