The powerless Arminian Jesus

[Mercy_Shown]

But why?

For the same reason that Eve ate of the fruit. Her hubris led her to believe that she knew better than God how to run her life. She was pure and righteous until she chose not to be. It is one of the overriding themes of the Bible, humble yourself before the lord and he will raise you up. God helps the humble but resists the proud.

He’s resistance of the proud is also an exhibition of his love. Often that resistance breaks the proud and they are able to become humble but not always.

The problem remains with Calvinism and that is no matter what way I cut it I come up with a portrayal of God who denies his Grace to some people but still demands perfect obedience and then punishes them for eternity for not doing things that were impossible for them to do. I just can’t get past that for that is not the God I know. And it’s not the God I read about in the Bible. I personally do not believe it is God.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

If it is just a "chance" then all were not made alive in Christ.

This doesn’t make sense to me. I think it’s based on the assumption that being made alive means being saved but perhaps it simply means being made alive.

When one is dead in sins and trespasses they’re unaware of their own sins because they are spiritually dead but when they are made alive they are aware of their sins and they have a choice, return to the darkness of death because they love their evil deeds or submit to God and allow him to redeem them and save them past present in future.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

If it is just a "chance" then all were not made alive in Christ.

I admit to me that passage is difficult, but since "all in Adam die" is clearly a literal "all" that applies to every individual, and we know that not every individual is make alive by Christ's death (not all are saved)there is a different application or intent between the two uses. Possibly "all who are in Christ are made alive" would express the intent.

Your conclusions though, are based on the assumption that being me alive means being saved. I don’t think it does. I think it is the first step toward salvation. By making us alive we now can see our condition we can make an informed choice, whereas when we were dead in our sins in pet trespasses we could not.

When the sowers seed fell in the shallow soil it was made alive until the sun came and burnt it because its roots were in dry ground and could not hold water.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

makesends said:
"Who then is responsible for the evil that [WHAT] causes?" What are you referring to by "this" in 'the evil that this causes'? Does the fact that he created those who are lost cause evil, or the fact that I believe (that he created those) causes evil, or something else causes evil?

It would help me if you were a little more specific in your terms. What exactly do you mean by "responsible for"? Who are the 'lost', you refer to in "he created those who are lost"? —those forever lost, reprobate? or all the lost including those to become saved? does 'the lost' include the elect before they are born again?


I'm not yet asking for proof of what you are positing; I'm asking for what you are saying —WHAT was it that causes the evil you refer to in post #22 ?

I don’t see anything about evil and post 22

 

[brightfame52]

This is the tight circular reasoning found in Calvinism. How do you know those who don’t resist the spirit are born of the spirit? Well, the answer is that if they weren’t born of the spirit they would resist it. And how do you know that? Easy, because if they were born of the spirit they wouldn’t resist it and so on and so forth.

The only ones who resist the Spirit are uncircumcised in heart and ears, meaning unregenerate. Listen to Stephen Acts 7:51

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 

[Arial]

For the same reason that Eve ate of the fruit. Her hubris led her to believe that she knew better than God how to run her life.

But that is not what it says. It says she was deceived. 2 Cor 11:3

It is one of the overriding themes of the Bible, humble yourself before the lord and he will raise you up. God helps the humble but resists the proud.

He’s resistance of the proud is also an exhibition of his love. Often that resistance breaks the proud and they are able to become humble but not always.

There might be too much emphasis being put on one single human characteristic, so as to make it the central theme, even means, of salvation. Deciding to be humble before the Lord is not going to get the job done. We have to be in Christ, joined to Him through faith, before humbleness before God is even possible. In fact, that is humbleness before God. All humility outside of Christ is posturing. It changes nothing of our nature. Being offered the gospel all by itself, even if your theory is true, and then we can accept or reject it, does not change anything of our nature either. Until our heart is changed and turned towards God, we remain turned away from Him. We can't change our hearts. They are what they are in Adam.

 

[CrowCross]

One resists the Holy Spirit but the other one submits to God.

I think we already know that.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

I think we already know that.

Now you can be sure you know it.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

But that is not what it says. It says she was deceived. 2 Cor 11:3

She was deceived as we all are at one time or another but what was the source of that deceit? Hubris. Eve did not know what sin was, she had no clue, but she did know what the command of God was, she should have known that He loved Her and would only do what was best for her, but Eve chose to believe the serpent over God so the rest was moot. She chose to trust the serpent's words over God's command. Now that takes hubris.

There might be too much emphasis being put on one single human characteristic, so as to make it the central theme, even means, of salvation. Deciding to be humble before the Lord is not going to get the job done.

Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord and He will lift you up. Humbling oneself before the Lord is the beginning. It is the same as fearing the Lord.

We have to be in Christ, joined to Him through faith, before humbleness before God is even possible.

God acts first always. We have no ability to act when we are dead, but when we are made alive we can now see to choose. Do we love darkness more than light? That will be the basis of the verdict against us. (John 3:19) Not a choice God made, but a choice we made. God provided a complete perfect salvation for all men but many neglect such a great salvation in full knowledge of the choice they are making. God then gives them over to their sins and degradation. When we choose to submit to God He will finish the work He began in us.

In fact, that is humbleness before God. All humility outside of Christ is posturing. It changes nothing of our nature. Being offered the gospel all by itself, even if your theory is true, and then we can accept or reject it, does not change anything of our nature either. Until our heart is changed and turned towards God, we remain turned away from Him. We can't change our hearts. They are what they are in Adam.

No, we can't, but God can if we choose to submit to him. The Holy Spirit strives with mankind but He will not do it forever. The crippled man at the pool could not walk no matter how much one tried to demand it of him. Even when Jesus approached Him and asked him if he desired to be healed the man's thoughts remained on the pool as his saviour. But then Jesus gave him a command to rise...

The man could have laughed it off as a bad Joke but he chose to submit himself to Jesus and obey. There comes that moment in everyone's lives. I use the word moment metaphorically because the Holy Spirit has to strive with some for many years.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

The only ones who resist the Spirit are uncircumcised in heart and ears, meaning unregenerate. Listen to Stephen Acts 7:51

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I don't see how you can justify generalizing the one incident. I think Jacob's struggle with the angle is instructive of what I am talking about.

 

[David1701]

For the same reason that Eve ate of the fruit. Her hubris led her to believe that she knew better than God how to run her life. She was pure and righteous until she chose not to be. It is one of the overriding themes of the Bible, humble yourself before the lord and he will raise you up. God helps the humble but resists the proud.

He’s resistance of the proud is also an exhibition of his love. Often that resistance breaks the proud and they are able to become humble but not always.

The problem remains with Calvinism and that is no matter what way I cut it I come up with a portrayal of God who denies his Grace to some people but still demands perfect obedience and then punishes them for eternity for not doing things that were impossible for them to do. I just can’t get past that for that is not the God I know. And it’s not the God I read about in the Bible. I personally do not believe it is God.

Sinners cannot be righteous because they don't want to be. They desire sin, so that is what they do. You make it sound as if the impossibility of them being righteous (because they desire sin) means that it's unfair of God to demand that they be righteous. That's like saying that it's unfair to demand that criminally minded people obey the law of the land, because they don't want to. It makes no sense at all.

God is a just and good judge, which means that he judges righteously; and this is a huge problem for sin-loving man (which is all of us, until or unless God makes us born again). A just judge must punish the guilty, unless a substitute can be found who will pay the price in their place.

Praise God that Jesus is that Substitute! Everyone for whom Jesus paid the price CANNOT be punished by the Just Judge, because that punishment has already been meted out on our Substitute. He bore our sins and was punished in our place. God then ensures that he gets the gospel to us, makes us born again and gives the gifts of repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, unto salvation.

For the rest: they get justice. Jesus did not bear their sins and punishment, so they are judged according to their works. If they hear the gospel (and many don't), then they remain in unbelief and remain under just condemnation.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

It seems to be 100% God and zero % us.

That is right. God does have mercy upon whom He has mercy and praise the Lord that His mercy is now for all.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Does this mean all receive mercy? No, because many reject it. When you reject God, you reject his eternal life, you reject His infinite mercy, you reject His salvation. God cannot be parsed out. It is an all-or-nothing proposition. You can't get only halfway in the elevator to heaven and expect it to turn out good.

 

[brightfame52]

I don't see how you can justify generalizing the one incident. I think Jacob's struggle with the angle is instructive of what I am talking about.

The only ones who resist the Spirit are uncircumcised in heart and ears, meaning unregenerate. Listen to Stephen Acts 7:51

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Sinners cannot be righteous because they don't want to be. They desire sin, so that is what they do. You make it sound as if the impossibility of them being righteous (because they desire sin) means that it's unfair of God to demand that they be righteous. That's like saying that it's unfair to demand that criminally minded people obey the law of the land, because they don't want to. It makes no sense at all.

That is not what Calvinists say. They say that we all love sin but God elects certain ones to put his efficacious Grace on which changes their hearts from loving sin to loving God and hating sin. He pays the price for all of their sins and guarantees their entrance into heaven no matter what. The ones who were not elected are left to then be judged for still loving sin since they cannot do anything else. Then God sends them into an eternity of torture for doing what their natures dictated.

Neither class of people is responsible for their ultimate fate since there is nothing either class can do to change the trajectory of their lives. The saints aren't responsible for their salvation and the sinners aren't responsible for their damnation. It is not a pretty picture.

God is a just and good judge, which means that he judges righteously; and this is a huge problem for sin-loving man (which is all of us, until or unless God makes us born again). A just judge must punish the guilty, unless a substitute can be found who will pay the price in their place.

A Just judge pays the price for all men, not just some. 1 John 2:2

Praise God that Jesus is that Substitute! Everyone for whom Jesus paid the price CANNOT be punished by the Just Judge, because that punishment has already been meted out on our Substitute. He bore our sins and was punished in our place. God then ensures that he gets the gospel to us, makes us born again and gives the gifts of repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, unto salvation.

Praise God He paid it for the world.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

For the rest: they get justice. Jesus did not bear their sins and punishment, so they are judged according to their works. If they hear the gospel (and many don't), then they remain in unbelief and remain under just condemnation.

The bible says He bore it for the whole world. Calvin was mistaken.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

The only ones who resist the Spirit are uncircumcised in heart and ears, meaning unregenerate. Listen to Stephen Acts 7:51

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

You are reading the text like this: Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: and all who are stiff necked, uncircumcised in heart and eras also are the only ones who resist the holy spirit as your fathers did, so do ye.

but in the original autographs, the underlined phrase is missing. In fact, it is missing in all versions of the bible so I don't know where you got that from.

 

[makesends]

That is right. God does have mercy upon whom He has mercy and praise the Lord that His mercy is now for all.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Does this mean all receive mercy? No, because many reject it. When you reject God, you reject his eternal life, you reject His infinite mercy, you reject His salvation. God cannot be parsed out. It is an all-or-nothing proposition. You can't get only halfway in the elevator to heaven and expect it to turn out good.

You still do not understand. It doesn't say that he intended to have mercy on them all.

What it is saying is that he bound everyone over to disobedience SO THAT they would need mercy!

 

[Mr GLee]

The word world and how it is used is the key

1 John 2:1-2King James Version My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:Sins of whole world .

Sins of the whole world, not, people of the world .

Believers are not considered of this world The easy read version seems to use the word world more properly

1 John 2:1-2 ERV Jesus is the way our sins are taken away. And he is the way all people can have their sins taken away too.

All people can have thier sins forgiven. . . . . not do have.

Believers I would thing are never regarded of this world . As ambassadors for Christ sent from heaven we are consider strangers to this world system. Satan is the god of this world

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

Children of this world. Believers are not of this world . .

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

He does not deceive the Jewish world alone. It would seem his goal to deceive mankind that God is a Jewish man as King of kings.

That kind of idea would be from the father of lies.

 

[Mr GLee]

You still do not understand. It doesn't say that he intended to have mercy on them all.

What it is saying is that he bound everyone over to disobedience SO THAT they would need mercy!

You still do not understand. It doesn't say that he intended to have mercy on them all.

What it is saying is that he bound everyone over to disobedience SO THAT they would need mercy!

I think there is two kinds of mercy..The fathers of lies would have it all one in the same one kind.

Mercy mixed with grace and Mercy no grace. Men perish and will not rise to new life, Just as if they were never born. There name erased from the book of life

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

God is subject to his own law. He would not be merciless and have unbelievers suffer forever and ever

The kind of idea he merciless is the bases for the LImbo doctrine extended life after one takes their last breath

James 2:12-14King James Version So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

No sufferings.But for dead in the grave .The end of the line.The buck stops here

We are sufferings the pangs of hell living these bodies of death .Yoked with Christ he make our daily burdens lighter with a future living hope beyond the grave

 

[brightfame52]

You are reading the text like this: Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: and all who are stiff necked, uncircumcised in heart and eras also are the only ones who resist the holy spirit as your fathers did, so do ye.

but in the original autographs, the underlined phrase is missing. In fact, it is missing in all versions of the bible so I don't know where you got that from.

I know how Im reading the text. Did stephen call them uncircumcised of heart and ears under the inspiration of God

 

[brightfame52]

@Mercy_Shown

Praise God He paid it for the world.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Refers to the Elect exclusively