The powerless Arminian Jesus

[Mercy_Shown]

You have a way of breaking things up and trying to explain it in human terms. It’s obvious that you do not understand these things, and thats okay. Just try and keep an open mind.

God the Holy Spirit changes man (John 3:3) and that is grace because man cannot. Once a man is born again (regenerated) he is now able to see the kingdom and believe because he is a new creation and possesses the gift of faith because he is in christ. Once a man is changed (regenerated) by grace, he willingly comes to Christ, he is not forced.

Then he can willingly reject God since he is not forced.

The God of the Bible foes not offer salvation. That’s only in your mind. Humanism

Gifts are offered and it s the free gift of God.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

@Mercy_Shown



But do you understand those scriptures ?

I do, do you?

 

[Carbon]

God can do whatever he desires to do but I do not see him choosing to do that.

Don’t you get it? It does not matter what you see or feel about a subject. It’s what God’s word says.

God went through a lot of trouble to save us when He could have simply created us with built-in irresistible grace and sin would never have existed, but He didn't for a reason. There is a reason He created beings that He knew would fall and sin. This opens a big window into God's love and desire for His ultimate creation.

You don’t understand grace.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Okay stop right there. See what happens when you start using scripture?

What does that say?

“God made us alive!”

Think on that a while

Why, that is what He did. An alive person can make choices whereas a dead one cannot. A live person can choose to die but a dead one cannot choose to live.

 

[Carbon]

Then he can willingly reject God since he is not forced.

Not if he has a new nature

Gifts are offered and it s the free gift of God.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Don’t you get it? It does not matter what you see or feel about a subject. It’s what God’s word says.

I do not see him in scripture daming people for not meeting standards He knows they cannot meet.

You don’t understand grace.

Why would you judge me like this? You cannot know this to be a fact. Because you do not understand what I believe or because it does not comport with what you believe you make this judgment?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Friend, everyone loves darkness more than light. It is easy for us to deny God and live for the world, because, the world offers us exactly what we want,
Until our nature is changed, until we are crucified with Christ and we are born again our desires are for the world and the flesh.

I do not love darkness more than light. When the light shines upon on us, do we love it more than darkness?

God knows no one can come. Do you not need Jesus?

Jesus is the light.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Not if he has a new nature

Then he has been forced.

 

[CrowCross]

If I apply the doctrine of irresistible Grace, then yes. Was the devil God’s devil?

It's not that simple....
Ez 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.

Certainly almighty God could have put his irresistible Grace on Lucifer. He could have put it on all creatures.

He could have. But apparently He doesn't.

If I create a fire that I know will burn down a forest am I guiltless?

That would depend on the reason why you started the fire....Was the purpose to clear your land so it could be productive? Or, was the purpose of the fire to burn out your neighbor so you could take his land?

Is it possible that for God to demonstrate all of His character...love, joy, peace, kindness, etc. that He allowed "evil" so He could demonstrate His character of grace, mercy, justice???

 

[CrowCross]

This analogy does not address irresistible grace or the idea that God’s laws are not possible for humans to keep.

I agree. Gods laws are impossible to keep in our fallen nature. Those that don't keep Gods laws deserve justice as the wages for sin is death. I also agree with the concept of irresistible grace. From all those deserving justice God can show His grace and mercy and through Christ Jesus' sacrificial atonement on the cross He can redeem whom ever He wants to save.

 

[CrowCross]

This is not logical. If a man submits to his rescuers, he is not saving himself. If a drowning sailor allows the rescue swimmer to place him in the litter, he is not saving himself.

Man doesn't submit to his rescuers to be saved. That is where all he has to do is reach out and grab the life preserver or be allowed to be placed in a litter and towed to shore.
It works more like this....The man is already DEAD. That is no life in him....dead in sins and trespasses....NOT drowning in sins and trespasses.
The man is DEAD lying on the bottom of the lake. Jesus Himself has to jump into the lake, swim to the bottom and drag your DEAD body to shore and breathe new life into you.

 

[CrowCross]

If God brings light to any man, then by God's power that man can choose. Some choose to submit while others love the darkness.

Why would one choose to submit to Jesus while others choose to remain in the darkness?
Is it their IQ?
Is it where they were born?
Is it the church they went to?
...is it the happenstance of life?

Why????

 

[Arial]

That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. John 1:9 Since those lost have no excuse it indicates that God has given them the same Grace, opportunities, and choices He has given the saved or else they could claim, "you are punishing us for laws that are impossible to keep."

That doesn't actually answer the question of when this grace is given unless you mean as soon as Jesus was born. John 1:9 does not say grace but light, and it does not say enlightenment, but light.Verse 10 says He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. (Romans 1:19-20). Verses 12-13 say But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

So there is nothing about choice there. Receive does not always denote choice, but here explicitly applies to being believing. If one hears the gospel and believes it, they would never reject what they believe. The light that is given to every man is Jesus coming into the world to redeem a people for God from out of the whole world. It is not enlightenment to every individual.

I can't imagine being born in sin unable to meet the standards of God because it is impossible for me to do so and then being eternally punished for it.

It isn't about what we can and can't imagine. It is about what God says. We are all born into that condition, dead in our sins and trespasses, until/unless God quickens us to life. Some receive justice, some receive mercy. Who are you o man to argue against God who says He will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and compassion on whom He has compassion? The disconnect here is in not grasping the holiness and complete otherness of God as Creator and our obligation to the One who made us. I know you know these things to be true, but that is different than grasping them in a way that causes one to stop measuring God by their feelings and reactions and purely from the human perspective. God has no obligation whatsoever to His creatures. Everything He does for them---all of them---and especially mankind, considering how great our transgression, how far our fall, is pure grace and mercy. The food we eat---His mercy. The rain that falls---His mercy. Not being destroyed enasse long, long ago which is what we deserve,---HIs mercy. He owes no one anything. We all owe Him everything. We do not lie, or move, or have any being, outside of Him.

But the bible does not say that at all. It is pretty straightforward. It states that men are without excuse for rejecting God. And the results are deeper and deeper ignorance and darkness. Men cannot say, "well, your laws were impossible to keep." Or "You never gave me any Grace." On the face of it, to plunge a man into hell for all eternity when there was no way he could meet the standards God set is not what He would do. Any earthly parent who punished their children for failing to meet impossible standards would rightfully be deemed a bad parent.

You keep comparing God to man. Have you not heard, "His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, so high we cannot attain to them."

God sent Christ as our substitute, obeying all God's laws perfectly, because we cannot, then taking upon Himself the just punishment for our sins, dying the death that we justly deserve, taking God's just wrath against our sin on the cross, for that very reason. But only being in Christ by grace and through faith, and that not of ourselves, but is a gift of God, are our sins atoned for. And only in Him are we justified before God and reconciled to Him. That He does not do this for all is not unfair, it is unequal. Just as choosing Israel over all other nations was unequal. God can do whatever He pleases with the same lump of clay (humanity, all descendants of the man of the earth) whether anyone likes it or not.

 

[Arial]

Then he can willingly reject God since he is not forced.

He won't reject God once he has been born again. Being born again, without which no man can see the kingdom of God, is God turning a heart towards HIm that was by nature turned against Him.

 

[Carbon]

Why would you judge me like this? You cannot know this to be a fact. Because you do not understand what I believe or because it does not comport with what you believe you make this judgment?

My intentions are not yo insult you or make fun because you don’t understand.

I do understand what you believe concerning grace, how could I not, you posted about it. What I mean by you don’t understand is, it’s not according to scripture, you have your own humanistic understanding of it.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

My intentions are not yo insult you or make fun because you don’t understand.

I do understand what you believe concerning grace, how could I not, you posted about it. What I mean by you don’t understand is, it’s not according to scripture, you have your own humanistic understanding of it.

It is according to the scriptures. What I do not have is a view according to another human being.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

He won't reject God once he has been born again. Being born again, without which no man can see the kingdom of God, is God turning a heart towards HIm that was by nature turned against Him.

This would be force if there were not a choice presented.

 

[Carbon]

It is according to the scriptures. What I do not have is a view according to another human being.

I pray God will open your eyes to see this truth in this.

 

[Carbon]

This would be force if there were not a choice presented.

You see, when a man is born again, he then becomes a God seeker and freely chooses.

 

[Carbon]

It is according to the scriptures.

Actually it’s not.

What I do not have is a view according to another human being.

Oh don’t flatter yourself I know many who have the same view as you.