The powerless Arminian Jesus

[Arial]

This is precisely why I do not see the doctorine of irresistible grace in the Bible. I do not see God choosing a specific group of people to save while leaving other people to damnation over rules they could not keep.

God is choosing some people and not others all through the Bible. It is God who reveals Himself to persons in a personal and saving way, and He has never revealed Himself in that way to everyone. In the NT we have Him revealing Himself through the gospel and the writings of the apostles. We see Jesus revealing Himself in a saving way to Israel. Did they reject Him because they saw and understood? Not according to Jesus, who declared in one place, John 10:24-30 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and on one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

That is very specific, and notice it does not say "you do not choose me" if says they do not believe.

The reason we cannot keep them is because in Adam we have become a being who sins. We are a sinner and at enmity with our Creator before we ever commit that first sin, and as such it is a given that we will sin. We are drawn to it like a moth to flame, because we like it. That was one of the purposes of the written code of Law in the Mosaic covenant. To make us aware of what righteousness is, and therefore what unrighteousness is, our hopelessness in attaining perfect righteousness on our own, and our need for God Himself to save us from this darkness.

We are not to base our theology---our understanding of God---on how we feel, or any measurement that comes from ourselves. We are to accept by faith, the things He clearly tells us, even if we don't like them or don't understand them. And what He tells us in a nutshell about salvation unto eternal life with Him in His kingdom, is just as Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life."

 

[Carbon]

Of course not. If God is all knowing then he knew from the very beginning who would accept it and who wouldn’t. But that fact did not stop him from giving his grace to all. I think Judas is a good example. Jesus knew from the beginning that he was a devil but he did not treat him any differently than any of the others. He received the same call the same grace the same teachings. I am sure that that is the way God deals for Humanity.

But judas loved darkness more than light and that’s what it will be with all those who are damned.

Friend, everyone loves darkness more than light. It is easy for us to deny God and live for the world, because, the world offers us exactly what we want,
Until our nature is changed, until we are crucified with Christ and we are born again our desires are for the world and the flesh.

God knows no one can come. Do you not need Jesus?

 

[Carbon]

God is love. Many people like to say he is justice also, but that is trying to separate something that is inseparable. There is no justice without love and there is no love without justice. they are part and parcel of each other.

I think that’s exactly what you are doing is separating or rather creating a god to your liking. An old member named civic took that route once he fell away and shipwrecked his faith.

 

[Mr GLee]

Interesting.

Ask it of Me, and I will certainly give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth as Your possession. Psalm 2:8.

Compare, Rev 20

Satan has been bound as Rev 20 teaches. The gospel goes out to all nations, no longer just the Jews.

Thanks for the reply. Its something I am working on .Not a salvation issue more how can we hear him who gives us ears as his understanding

Sorry for the length,

I would offer.

The gospel of Christ as it is written .Christ in us revealing by his faith as a labor of His love the unseen things of God, as it is written.

The gospel has always gone out to all nations through apostles "men and woman" The bride Christ the living temple not made with the dying hands of mankind . Sent apostles by God with prophecy (gospel) There were several women prophets, none considered of Israel but where grafted or adopted . Rehab, Ruth, Zipporah, Huldah ,Noadiah ,Hannah. all used to further the gospel.

The first recorded apostle is with Abel, the first listed martyr.His blood like the blood of all saints from all nations cries out for a new incorruptible body/

Christianity is not a Jewish based religion. It is not based on dying Jewish flesh called a "outward Jew" . That would seem to be more the goal of Satan from the beginning. Jewish man as King of kings. . robbing the glory of God the unseen KIng of kings .

The robing of the glory of God is first given in 1 Samuel 8. Where Satan worked in the heart of non believing Jews as atheist in order to set up a earthly kingdom . They had become jealous of all the surrounding pagan foundation (out of sight out of mind no invisible head), kingdoms of dying mankind

Earthly Kings in place our heavenly King of kings. God gave them over to do that which they should not of desired in the first place . God spoke through his apostle Samuel informing us for they have not rejected Samael the apostle , but they have rejected God that that he should not reign over them .The fools who said "there is no eternal God in there hard heart"

Again He gave them over until the time of first century reformation.The abomination of desolation "Kings in Israel". God had sent a strong delusion so they could believe in a dying government of men .

1 Samuel 8:4-7 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them

During that time period there were no female prophets . As a kingdom of men it became a men's only religion . A high wall (15 fet) separated the Jewish woman from the Jewish men. and another wall the separated the gentile from the Jews .both came tumbling down the shadows disappeared Nether jewish woman not gentiles were not allowed to participate the the ceremonial law as shadows that looked ahead again until the time of the first century reformation and the glory that followed .Therefore restoring the Kingdom of God according to the period of "Judges" men and women sent out as apostles with prophecy from all the nations of the world as promised in Joel

The gospel the true woman's liberator the church or bride of Christ

Acts 2:15-17King James Version For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: (every nation) and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams

Again the reformation had come Hebrew 9 .

A beautiful gospel parable the same word figure used below using the signified the "temporal things" seen to give us the eternal understanding of his labor of love that works in dying mankind

Parable is a figure of speech .

Hebrew 9: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Using that parable a time period Kings in Israel.The Holy Spirit using the unbelieving Jew to show what mankind does, as evil meant against him he can turn into the good things of eternal God not seen

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

When the veil was rent there was no Jewish kings of king sitting in the what they called Holy place of God .Satan fell (Revelation 20 :3) he could not deceive all the nations of the world that Eternal God is Jewish man is King of kings, Lord of lords .

He will be released again at the end of the age deceiving all the nations that God is a Jewish man as King of King .

Eternal God is not a man

 

[Carbon]

1 John 2:2

I would enjoy looking at that passage with you if your interested

 

[Carbon]

But to his creation it does.

Is your religion based on emotionalism?

 

[Carbon]

Are you suggesting that God was surprised at how bad things had gotten? In fact, so surprised that he had to repent for creating them? That doesn’t sound all-knowing to me.

Oh I’m quite sure you know what I am saying.

 

[Carbon]

If there were no humble people then who is James talking about in chapter 4 verse 6?

But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”

Scripture is written to and for believers

 

[Carbon]

I have no power to give anyone.

But you give him a supernatural power.

 

[Carbon]

It is a gift and the gift is offered. Something that we must take is not considered a gift.

Prove it.

 

[Carbon]

This is precisely why I do not see the doctorine of irresistible grace in the Bible. I do not see God choosing a specific group of people to save while leaving other people to damnation over rules they could not keep.

What? You mean God has no right to choose?

 

[Carbon]

@Mercy_Shown



But do you understand those scriptures ?

Obviously not

 

[Mercy_Shown]

If you think salvation is forced on anyone by irresistible grace, you surely do not understand grace. Not enough to get buy anyway.

Wow

If Grace changes a man without the man's choosing so that he now instinctually seeks God, that is a form of force. However, if a man is enlightened to see the evil and degradation in him and then given the offered the gift of life and submits to it. That is not force.

Looks like you’re reading something from a different bible. Would you try to look your beliefs up in scripture and post its teaching?
Thanks

The fact that a living person can choose to die should be self-evident. Suicides do happen. But a dead person cannot choose to live and that also should be self-evident. We were dead in our sins and trespasses but God made us alive. The Galatians fell from Grace by their choices but they weren't brought to grace by their choices.

 

[Carbon]

If a child were born with fetal alcohol syndrome because of their mothers drinking which left them with learning and memory problems, problems understanding and following directions, controlling emotions and impulsivity, poor communication and social skills, depression, and anxiety not to mention performing daily life skills, including feeding, bathing, counting money, telling time, and minding personal safety that I should still demand of them the same standard of behavior as a normal healthy child?

How can one be held responsible for a standard that they cannot meet? Is this not why Christ died and imputed His righteousness to us? Did not the cross turn everything upside down so that it takes work to earn the wage of death but eternal life is a gift? SInce Jesus died for the sins of the whole world as John states, who will be lost because of their sins? Does Jesus fix the reason for the verdict on a person's sins? John 3:19 says no, it is based on what they love. Jesus also says it is based on who knows them and who they know.

I do not judge God. I judge the version of God that Calvinism presents.

You prove that you interpret scripture with human reasoning. That’s a really bad practice

 

[Mercy_Shown]

What? You mean God has no right to choose?

God can do whatever he desires to do but I do not see him choosing to do that. God went through a lot of trouble to save us when He could have simply created us with built-in irresistible grace and sin would never have existed, but He didn't for a reason. There is a reason He created beings that He knew would fall and sin. This opens a big window into God's love and desire for His ultimate creation.

 

[Carbon]

This is not logical. If a man submits to his rescuers, he is not saving himself. If a drowning sailor allows the rescue swimmer to place him in the litter, he is not saving himself.

The drowning analogy?
Where do you find in scripture (not your humanistic reasoning) that the lost sinner is drowning?
My bible says man is “dead” in sin, not drowning or sick. But you say man can raise himself from the dead by his free will? I’ve always thought dead men can’t do anything

If God brings light to any man, then by God's power that man can choose. Some choose to submit while others love the darkness.

So it’s just an offer than?

Prove that with scripture

 

[Mercy_Shown]

You prove that you interpret scripture with human reasoning. That’s a really bad practice

That is your opinion but it is not necessarily a fact. A man's ways are right in His own eyes.

 

[Carbon]

If Grace changes a man without the man's choosing so that he now instinctually seeks God, that is a form of force.

You have a way of breaking things up and trying to explain it in human terms. It’s obvious that you do not understand these things, and thats okay. Just try and keep an open mind.

God the Holy Spirit changes man (John 3:3) and that is grace because man cannot. Once a man is born again (regenerated) he is now able to see the kingdom and believe because he is a new creation and possesses the gift of faith because he is in christ. Once a man is changed (regenerated) by grace, he willingly comes to Christ, he is not forced.

However, if a man is enlightened to see the evil and degradation in him and then given the offered the gift of life and submits to it. That is not force.

The God of the Bible foes not offer salvation. That’s only in your mind. Humanism

 

[Mercy_Shown]

The drowning analogy?
Where do you find in scripture (not your humanistic reasoning) that the lost sinner is drowning?
My bible says man is “dead” in sin, not drowning or sick. But you say man can raise himself from the dead by his free will? I’ve always thought dead men can’t do anything

You are attributing to me words and thoughts that I never expressed. The drowning sailor cannot save himself.

Psalms 38: 4 I am drowning in the flood of my sins; they are a burden too heavy to bear.
Job 10:15 If I am guilty—woe to me! Even if I am innocent, I cannot lift my head, for I am full of shame and drowned in my affliction.

So it’s just an offer than?

Prove that with scripture

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A gift is an offering of assets made by one person to another in which nothing of comparable value is given, or expected to be given, in return.

 

[Carbon]

The fact that a living person can choose to die should be self-evident. Suicides do happen.

This is human reasoning. Humanism. No scripture.

But a dead person cannot choose to live and that also should be self-evident.

Dead people can’t do anything. There dead!

We were dead in our sins and trespasses but God made us alive.

Okay stop right there. See what happens when you start using scripture?

What does that say?

“God made us alive!”

Think on that a while

The Galatians fell from Grace by their choices but they weren't brought to grace by their choices.