The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !

[JIM]

Romans 9:11-14
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

From Albert Barnes:

Have I hated- This does not mean any positive hatred; but that he had preferred Jacob, and had withheld from Esau those privileges and blessings which he had conferred on the posterity of Jacob. This is explained in Mal_1:3,” And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness;” compare Jer_49:17-18; Eze_35:6. It was common among the Hebrews to use the terms “love” and “hatred” in this comparative sense, where the former implied strong positive attachment, and the latter, not positive hatred, but merely a less love, or the withholding of th e expressions of affection; compare Gen_29:30-31; Pro_13:24, “He that spareth his rod hateth his son; but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes;” Mat_6:24, “No man can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other,” etc.; Luk_14:26, “if any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, etc.”

 

[Red Baker]

Yet, John 3:16 is clear that the focus of John 3:16 is not the world, but those who would believe in His Son.

TMSO~of course the focus is on the word "world", since before Christ came into the world, the religion of God was maintained by the Jewish people from Abraham onward. God made himself known mainly though Abraham's natural seed, the Jewish people~It was called the Jews rellgion in distinction from all other religions of the world.

Galatians 1:14​

“And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.”

is not the world, but those who would believe in His Son. There is the individual, and there is the individual love that is not without exception.

Emphasis are mine for discussions. God does make exception, your understanding attempting to say the exceptions lies in one not believing is incorrect. The very fact some do believe proves the exceptions by God's choice, not man's! Before moving on let is take carefully look at John 3:16 to show my point even more.

John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

This well known verse is understood by very few. This scripture is a scripture "declaring a bible truth" ~ it is not a conditional scripture, with a promise attached to it. The bible truth it is declaring is...those that believe have everlasting life and shall never perish in the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Above you added to this scripture by saying: "those who would believe" ~as though it was in their power to do so~which we know from many scriptures this is not so~actually, impossible apart from God's showing his power in creating a new man within them first, which then would give them that power.

I'm coming back to address more your post.

 

[JIM]

I’m surprised to find nonbelievers on this forum and opposers of God!

I don't know who you are calling nonbelievers or opposers of God, but I think it is completely inappropriate.

 

[JIM]

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

This well known verse is understood by very few. This scripture is a scripture "declaring a bible truth" ~ it is not a conditional scripture, with a promise attached to it. The bible truth it is declaring is...those that believe have everlasting life and shall never perish in the lake of fire, which is the second death.

O course it is a conditional statement in scripture. It is declaring the bible truth of the conditional promise by God to whomsoever believes in Jesus. That is reinforced in the next couple of verses, particularly,

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Clearly believing is a condition for not being condemned.

 

[brightfame52]

Wow. I have never stated that God does not have A love for the elect that is completely different then the universal love that kept God from wiping out humanity in the flood, that had God give the promise of redemption to Eve, that had Hitler wake up every morning to commit more evil, etc. There is a universal love, which is seen in common grace, mercy, etc. That love has nothing to do with how God considers the individual. It is like computers. If you go to the top teir of program access rights and put a deny (like no universal love), then no one would ever be able to access any of those programs. It doesn't even matter if you go to every program and set it to approve. That explicit deny trumps ALL. However, an explicit approve at the top level NEVER trumps a deny at a lower level. God's universal love for His creation does not deny Him the right to hate individuals and love individuals on an individual basis. That is why John 3:16 is written as it is. God's universal love for the world, for all humanity is what caused Him to send His Son that individuals who believe (individual level) may experience God'd PERSONAL love at the individual/elect level. That does nothing to change the fact that our Creator, has a love for His creation, which is why God bothered providing salvation in the first place. [Yes, it is all God's plan, however if you are going to speak simply at the level of man, so will I.]

Gods Love is limited to the Elect, you cant see it.

 

[JIM]

Gods Love is limited to the Elect, you cant see it.

God loves His creation, you can't see it.

 

[Red Baker]

God does not wish for any of the elect to perish, but that all the elect should come to repentance. Notice how Peter says that He is longsuffering to us-ward. That is towards His audience, which is believers. And no, the purpose of the election is that God chose, according to the pleasure of His good will, as Ephesians 1 says. Hence, they had not yet been born, had not yet done anything, but God had already chosen to love Jacob and hate Esau. In other words, it wasn't based on foreknowledge, but the good purpose of His will.

You say that God hated Easu because of his evil ways. Then why does God come right out and say that neither "had done any good or evil?" If God was using foreknowledge, He would have said that He already knew what they were going to do, in which case the purpose of God according to election fails. It is of "him that calleth". In other words, not works. However, you said that it was because of Esau's works that God hated him. Esau's evil ways. Which is it? Did God hate Esau because of his works, that is his evil ways, or was it "not of works, but of him that calleth"?

If we use foreknowledge as you state it, then our salvation is based on merit and works that God saw in the past, and thus He decided to save us based on that merit and works. You should read Ephesians 1 again. God chose before the foundation of the world.

TMSO~with this post, you did a overall great job.

He chose in Christ, before the foundation of the world, which means He already planned everything, to include Jesus' sacrifice, before the foundation of the world. Hence, there is a purpose in God's election.

He chose us in Christ, whom God ordained to be our surety, so that we would be made the righteousness of God though his merits, not ours.

 

[Biblelesson]

From Albert Barnes:

Have I hated- This does not mean any positive hatred; but that he had preferred Jacob, and had withheld from Esau those privileges and blessings which he had conferred on the posterity of Jacob. This is explained in Mal_1:3,” And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness;” compare Jer_49:17-18; Eze_35:6. It was common among the Hebrews to use the terms “love” and “hatred” in this comparative sense, where the former implied strong positive attachment, and the latter, not positive hatred, but merely a less love, or the withholding of th e expressions of affection; compare Gen_29:30-31; Pro_13:24, “He that spareth his rod hateth his son; but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes;” Mat_6:24, “No man can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other,” etc.; Luk_14:26, “if any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, etc.”

You said “it was common among the Hebrews to use the term love and hatred…”

Somehow, you do not recognize that God was speaking, not the Hebrews.

God SAID He laid Esau’s deserts to waste. He became an enemy of God - Esau and other nations were joined- they were confederate against God. That’s why God hated Esau:
Psalms 83:4-6 KJV
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;

Also in
Obadiah 1:8 KJV, God says, “Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?”

Obadiah 1:9 KJV, “And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.”

Ezekiel 25:14 KJV, “And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.”

Jeremiah 49:17 KJV, “Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof.”

You said “Have I hated,” comparing your hate or love with God’s. I’m shocked. This is what God tells us,
Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[JIM]

You said “it was common among the Hebrews to use the term love and hatred…”

Somehow, you do not recognize that God was speaking, not the Hebrews.

God SAID He laid Esau’s deserts to waste. He became an enemy of God - Esau and other nations were joined- they were confederate against God. That’s why God hated Esau:
Psalms 83:4-6 KJV
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;

Also in
Obadiah 1:8 KJV, God says, “Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?”

Obadiah 1:9 KJV, “And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.”

Ezekiel 25:14 KJV, “And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.”

Jeremiah 49:17 KJV, “Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof.”

You said “Have I hated,” comparing your hate or love with God’s. I’m shocked. This is what God tells us,
Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

You have me mixed up with someone else.

 

[Red Baker]

God loves His creation, you can't see it.

Jim, after God created all things, he saw that all was very good, but this witness recorded for our learning was before the fall of Adam. After the fall of Adam and Eve and just before the flood we have this witness recorded for us:

Genesis 6:5-7~"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

I agree with Calvin:

"And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth The repentance which is here ascribed to God does not properly belong to him, but has reference to our understanding of him. For since we cannot comprehend him as he is, it is necessary that, for our sakes he should, in a certain sense, transform himself. That repentance cannot take place in God, easily appears from this single considerations that nothing happens which is by him unexpected or unforeseen. The same reasoning, and remark, applies to what follows, that God was affected with grief. Certainly God is not sorrowful or sad; but remains forever like himself in his celestial and happy repose: yet, because it could not otherwise be known how great is God's hatred and detestation of sin, therefore the Spirit accommodates himself to our capacity. Wherefore, there is no need for us to involve ourselves in thorny and difficult questions, when it is obvious to what end these words of repentance and grief are applied; namely, to teach us, that from the time when man was so greatly corrupted, God would not reckon him among his creatures; as if he would say, This is not my workmanship; this is not that man who was formed in my image, and whom I had adorned with such excellent gifts: I do not deign now to acknowledge this degenerate and defiled creature as mine.' Similar to this is what he says, in the second place, concerning grief; that God was so offended by the atrocious wickedness of men, as if they had wounded his heart with mortal grief: There is here, therefore, an unexpressed antithesis between that upright nature which had been created by God, and that corruption which sprung from sin. Meanwhile, unless we wish to provoke God, and to put him to grief, let us learn to abhor and to flee from sin. Moreover, this paternal goodness and tenderness ought, in no slight degree, to subdue in us the love of sin; since God, in order more effectually to pierce our hearts, clothes himself with our affections. This figure, which represents God as transferring to himself what is peculiar to human nature, is called anthropopatheia"

Jim, As I have said recently, that God's election is based upon God's foreknowledge, a knowledge that he knew that if he did not have an election of grace before man sinned, then no one would have ever been saved, if left to themselves to come on their own~for here in Genesis 6 we see when man is left to himself he degenerates worse and worse, and this is true of all men, only those whom God ordained to life, such as Noah, would never found favor with God in a world of depraved creatures who display their depravity when God withholds his mercy and grace, such as in Genesis 6.

God loves His creation, you can't see it.

I can clearly see he does not love all men without distinction just because they are flesh and blood! That kind of anti - bible thinking must confuse you when you read, of God destroying a world of sinners in the flood, including infants, and old folks. Then let me ask you this question.....was it fair for God to remove the wheels off Pharaoh's chariot and then bring the water back over them once Israel escaped to the other side?

Exodus 14:24-30~"And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians. And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen. And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore."

Do not tell me that God loves all men equally, he actually hates many and will destroy them in the lake of fire in that day. He only loves the children of his promises, all others he will destroy, since he owes no man anything, all owes him everything, yet they say in their hearts~who is the Lord that "WE" should serve and obey him.

Exodus 5:2​

“And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.”

We know him, because we were known of him from the foundation of the world according to the riches of his grace toward us.

 

[JIM]

Do not tell me that God loves all men equally, he actually hates many and will destroy them in the lake of fire in that day. He only loves the children of his promises, all others he will destroy, since he owes no man anything, all owes him everything, yet they say in their hearts~who is the Lord that "WE" should serve and obey him.

As I noted in post #38, we are commanded to do something that, according to you, God doesn't do, namely, love our enemies. If God doesn't love His enemies, how could He possibly ask us to love ours.

Also, I don't know that God loves all men equally, whatever that might mean, but I do believe that He loves His creation. That obviously doesn't mean that He likes what they do. Red, I know He loves you, but I also know He doesn't like everything you do. I know that because you are not sinless, but you are forgiven.

 

[brightfame52]

God loves His creation, you can't see it.

The Creation is for the Elect, its for them and God in Christ. Creation anticipates the manifestation of the Sons of God, who are Gods elect. Rom 8:17-23

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[JIM]

The Creation is for the Elect, its for them and God in Christ. Creation anticipates the manifestation of the Sons of God, who are Gods elect. Rom 8:17-23

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Sorry, nothing there supports your false hypothesis. Nothing there says anything about God loving only the elect.

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry, nothing there supports your false hypothesis. Nothing there says anything about God loving only the elect.

Jim, what does this scripture say to you?

1st John 4:19~"We love him, because he first loved us."

Please answer my question, then I want to come back and give you my understanding.

 

[Mr GLee]

Your strawman is "loved all men without exception". The reality is "For God so loved the world", which is followed by the salvation ONLY of those who are believing in His Son. Everyone else, without exception, will face the ire and wrath of God.

"So loved" represents how he loved. Not a phycological response to our need. He has no needs but satisfies all. He is not a lonely God.

It would seem he created loneliness that we might seek after him .

The first and it was not good for man to be alone . . so he solved it .

Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Remember Adam represents Christ the husband of his bride. While Eve represented the whole visible church as a sign to the un-redeemed world.

In every persons life a person will run into loneliness with no help from a friend available. Like in the "belly of a whale" and are moved to seek the help of our invisible head or "heart of the earth" or "trouble with the wife" (lol) . The suffering jesus experienced in the garden .

Three time he awoke the other apostles in hope of help and strength . Three times the Father put them to sleep to fulfil the prohecy of two working as one The father striking the Son, bruising his heel crushing the head of the serpent . the witness of two . in that way three is a crowd.

 

[Red Baker]

As I noted in post #38, we are commanded to do something that, according to you, God doesn't do, namely, love our enemies. If God doesn't love His enemies, how could He possibly ask us to love ours.

Also, I don't know that God loves all men equally, whatever that might mean, but I do believe that He loves His creation. That obviously doesn't mean that He likes what they do. Red, I know He loves you, but I also know He doesn't like everything you do. I know that because you are not sinless, but you are forgiven.

Jim even in God's hatred of sinners, he still allows his sun to warm their faces, and causes their hearts to enjoy many things that he has created. In this respect, he commands us to love those that despitefully offend us, that we may glorify our Father in heaven, by walking in the steps of His Son. But, His mercy toward them is far different than the mercy to shows toward his elect. One is temporal, the other is eternal. Much of what he does toward the wicked is due to his longsuffering enduring them until he destroys his enemies.

Romans 9:22​

“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”

He exercises great patience towards them, seeing they are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction by their own wickedness, to which God shuts them up in His judgment. On the other hand, what can be said against it, if He proceed in mercy with others, thereby manifesting the riches of His glory, or His glorious grace, since they are vessels of mercy, whom, by His sovereign election from eternity, and the sanctification of His Spirit in time, He had afore prepared unto glory? Determining this between each vessels before either of them had done any good or evil!

Much of what the wicked enjoy is by the very fact they are among the righteous and in blessing the righteous, they too share in a certain degree some of those blessings.

 

[JIM]

Jim, what does this scripture say to you?

1st John 4:19~"We love him, because he first loved us."

Please answer my question, then I want to come back and give you my understanding.

In the simplest explanation, God is the reason that we love Him. God is love. It is one of His basic character traits. Given that God made man in his own image, I believe the capacity to love is also a character trait of the human being and is one of those things of the spirit of man that sets him apart from the rest of the animal kingdom.

The entire passage of 1 John 4:7-21 is a plea from John is summed up in verse 21: And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

And so then, I guess the real question ought to be is who is the brother that we must also love. But that is not really in the scope of this topic.

 

[JIM]

Jim even in God's hatred of sinners, he still allows his sun to warm their faces, and causes their hearts to enjoy many things that he has created. In this respect, he commands us to love those that despitefully offend us, that we may glorify our Father in heaven, by walking in the steps of His Son. But, His mercy toward them is far different than the mercy to shows toward his elect. One is temporal, the other is eternal. Much of what he does toward the wicked is due to his longsuffering enduring them until he destroys his enemies.

Romans 9:22​

“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”

He exercises great patience towards them, seeing they are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction by their own wickedness, to which God shuts them up in His judgment. On the other hand, what can be said against it, if He proceed in mercy with others, thereby manifesting the riches of His glory, or His glorious grace, since they are vessels of mercy, whom, by His sovereign election from eternity, and the sanctification of His Spirit in time, He had afore prepared unto glory? Determining this between each vessels before either of them had done any good or evil!

Much of what the wicked enjoy is by the very fact they are among the righteous and in blessing the righteous, they too share in a certain degree some of those blessings.

While God may hate what sinners do, that does not necessarily transfer His hate to the individual. You may not like or agree with the actions of your son or daughter, but that does not mean that you do not like them or even worse that you would hate them.

As far as Romans 9 is concerned, the Calvinist view of that entire chapter is grossly misappropriated. It really has nothing whatsoever to do with the Calvinist definition of elect, that definition being wrong in the first place.

 

[brightfame52]

Now if God Loved all without exception, then in Love, He predestnated all without exception. If He predestinated all without exception, then He must have foreknew all without exception according to Rom 8:29

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Eph 1:4-5

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, nothing there supports your false hypothesis. Nothing there says anything about God loving only the elect.

Nothing there for you.