The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !

[TMSO]

Try as many times as you think you need to do so, and every time you will be wrong. Folks like you remind me of folks doing the same thing over and over, when what they are trying to accomplish never works, because they never address the problem the second time after the first failed attempt.

Example: like trying to start a mower over and over again, with no results and not correcting of the problem in order to make it start~something as simple as a spark plug could have saved them precious time, not to mention solving the problem as to why it did not work the first attempt.

So while you are changing the spark plugs, I'm out buying gas since I know the tank is empty. It would help if you checked. Or perhaps it is the oil. Or perhaps the choke line is disconnected. So many different levels. Yet you zone in only on spark plugs, as though the rest does not exist. Christianity, love, and hate are not abstractions, so please don't treat them as abstractions. If you mention driving a car to someone as an abstraction, but they don't know what driving a car is, can you really fault them for saying you don't know what you are talking about if you start getting into the nitty gritty. I mean, all they know is it is "driving a car". How dare you consider driving a car to be a top level domain, when that is all there is. This is what I hear when you talk about love. You don't consider once that there are many different levels to it.

God does not love all men without exception, never has, never will. He does love all men without distinction of their origin and status in life.

He can only love those whom he has chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and there purpose to show mercy and grace to those that were chosen in Christ, all according to his own purpose and grace without any preference to works, since it was done before they did any good or evil.

How can you possible say God loves all of mankind when God word said just the opposite? Hear the word of God.

How can you possibly say that God can't do something. God can love everyone and not be sinning. How? Well, you would have to consider the definition of love in the context. See what follows for an example.
Luke 14
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

So... do you hate your father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, and even your own life? If you say you don't, then Jesus says you cannot be His disciple. And, since you are unwilling to recognize the difference in love, then you are not allowed to recognize a difference in hate here. So again, do you absolutely despise them with all your heart, and despise yourself? If not, you are not Jesus disciple. This is what your comment sounds to me about love. Unwilling to recognize anything other then one track. I bet you look at Luke 14:26 as not being one track. In fact, you probably say that it is Jesus just talking about the level of love. That is, we are to so love God with all our being, that all our other loves appear as hate. Is there anything, or anyone in the Bible who supports such a view? Yeah. John does. Why? If you hate your brother, you are in the dark until now. You are not a believer if you hate your brother. So even John understood what Jesus was saying was not actual hate, but where our love for God is such that all our other loves appear to be hate. Our love for God... the sun. Our love for father, mother, etc... a 5 watt light bulb, not even trying to be bright. There is still light, but... it doesn't mean anything in the light of the sun. It is completely blotted out by the sun.

God loves all of humanity. DO NOT SAY WITHOUT EXCEPTION. This is corporate level. I like Microsoft... Bill Gates... not so much. However, he is included in the umbrella of Microsoft. If I am just talking about Microsoft, it is all good. If I zone in on Bill Gates, I'm no longer talking about just Microsoft. I have taken it to a different level. Now I'm being personal. As such, I could then use that to reflect poorly on Microsoft, though that is wrong. Why? His position. They have no choice in the matter.

So, when God is talking about humanity, He isn't even considering Esau. He isn't even considering Jacob. It is all humanity. John 3:16 starts with all humanity. For God so loved humanity (the world), that He gave His only Son. (FULL STOP) Why do I say full stop? Because the rest of the verse is NOT about all humanity, but about a group of humanity. Those who would believe in Him. Again, I don't know who they are, so I am in no position to say "No, not you." So it is those who would. Yes, it does not speak directly to WHY, but that is understood. There is a reason why they would, but as I don't even know who they are, I wouldn't know. Note "so loved" speaks to quality of love, not the kind of love.

God's point wasn't that He loves Jacob and hates Esau. His point is to make known His purpose in election. It isn't because He knew who someone would be. It isn't in reaction to something someone is going to do, or has done. How do we know? He said that before they were born, before they had done anything, He had already chosen to love Jacob and hate Esau. Neither Jacob or Esau had any merit by which God should love or hate them. God didn't use merit. He simply chose to love one and not the other before they were born, and before they had done anything. Or even had a thought. And on top of that, it wasn't foreknowledge.

Again, there is a love God has for His creation, that which was made in His image. Only love, no hate for His image. (Would that not constitute hate for self?) The hate God has for Esau is not how we understand hate as humans. The reasoning behind God's love for Jacob and hate for Esau should tell you that right off the bat. Jacob had not done anything deserving of love, and Esau had not done anything deserving of hate, and God did not take their lives into account. There was no foreknowledge involved in God's choice. Jesus was clear on that. If man cannot be saved in and of himself, but it takes God to make all things possible, to include salvation, then foreknowledge is worthless. Why? How everyone turns out in the end would be based on God's actions, not on man's actions. The better question would be "What foreknowledge?" God planned/determined it. If He did not, then Jesus' answer to the disciples question stands, and no one is saved.

 

[TMSO]

Esau was not an exception, but an example of God's sovereign love based upon the purpose and will of God alone so that man can see that salvation from sin and condemnation is solely based upon the will of God calling whosoever he would. Romans 9:11-14

Again, the author of Hebrews already told us why they are talking about Jacob and Esau at all. It wasn't to tell us, oh by the way, I loved Jacob and hated Esau. It was "so that His purposes according to the election would stand." And His purposes are not based on who Jacob and Esau are, or what they have done. Ephesians 1 says He did it all, according to the good purpose of His will. That is... He felt like it. I mean, shouldn't God be allowed to do whatever He wants without you, me, or anyone else telling Him He can't? If you don't follow our rules, then that is a FOUL!! But wait, this is God's house, therefore it is His rules, and the house always wins.

God knew before creating man after his image, that man would lose that image in his disobedience to God's word. He became at once at enmity against God, thereby, God owes man nothing but his wrath toward his disobedience. God can only love us through Jesus Christ, and apart from Christ, he does not love any, nor owes man anything, but his wrath toward his sin. We will say this, that even in God's hatred toward his enemies, he does show a certain amount of kindness to all, but it only adds to his wrath when they continue not to acknowledge his goodness, by sending them fruitful seasons, year after year. Everything works so perfectly within God's creation, so perfectly one could draw a line in the sand that the proud waves will not pass over! Yet man in his depravity will not acknowledge God's handiwork.

Man did not lose the image. It became corrupted, but man did not lose it. Again, you have a one track mind on all of this, but it is multi-track. Why? Different meanings and different levels of love. I love food, but I absolutely hate beyond reason... Tofu. In fact, it is such that I don't consider it food. However, when it comes to the rules of what is or isn't food, my certifications pale next to a nutritionist. Not to mention, next to God.

Job 38:11​

“And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?”

I'll come back, I have an appointment this morning.

You have to understand the different levels of love, or you will not be able to explain why God can love, yet still send sinners to eternal torment. It has to do with the different meanings and different levels of love. I love books... I hate e-books. That goes right to I love books, but I hate those books in e-book format. So I actually love the book... but I would be more then happy to burn the e-book version. So God loves humanity, but He will destroy the sinner version of humanity, while loving humanity. How? Humanity is a classification. Sinner is a classification. It is possible to love on classification, and hate the other, even if both classify one object. Just as I love books, but I hate their e-book versions. (The reason being that I hate e-books). Someone like you would say that I couldn't like the story then, even though I could tell you all day long that it is also available in hard back and soft cover versions. I love the story, upper level, however I only like certain delivery methods. In this case, actual hard copy books. I hate the e-book versions. Yet I still read e-books. Why? Sometimes that is all I have. I still hate it. The actual content is fine, and I may love it. The delivery format... not so much.

 

[prism]

And His purposes are not based on who Jacob and Esau are, or what they have done. Ephesians 1 says He did it all, according to the good purpose of His will. That is... He felt like it. I mean, shouldn't God be allowed to do whatever He wants without you, me, or anyone else telling Him He can't? If you don't follow our rules, then that is a FOUL!! But wait, this is God's house, therefore it is His rules, and the house always wins.

Lol, now it sounds as if you are making the case for the Calvinist.

 

[Red Baker]

Those who would is leaving it open. Why? Well, I seem to have lost mine, so could I borrow your roll call of the elect sheet? That way, I can change it from those who would, which is how humans understand life, to make the blanket statement that I know who the elect are, and these exact people, by name, will believe. We don't know.

I do not have access to the book of life concerning whose names are written therein~but God does, and he tells us how we can know those we come into contact with if they are the very elect of God.

1st John 5:1~"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1st John 3:7~"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

Many such scriptures tells us whose name are in the book of life of Lamb. It is not what group/church one belongs to, but do they believe and live righteous according to the word of God, determines if their name is in the book of life.

Schofield (I believe) said that until he receives a roll call of the elect, he will continue to preach whosoever will. Why do you seem to believe that this would break scripture?

If a man preaches, whosoever to include all men without an exception, then that man is preaching a lie. I do not care who he is, he is preaching another gospel. C. I. Scofield through his notes in the scriptures has done more harm than most false prophets in the last one hundred and twenty five years~with the exception of Jimmy Swaggart's Expositor Bible with his study notes in the bible.

 

[makesends]

Those who would is leaving it open. Why? Well, I seem to have lost mine, so could I borrow your roll call of the elect sheet? That way, I can change it from those who would, which is how humans understand life, to make the blanket statement that I know who the elect are, and these exact people, by name, will believe. We don't know. Schofield (I believe) said that until he receives a roll call of the elect, he will continue to preach whosoever will. Why do you seem to believe that this would break scripture?

Schofield should have known better. Both here (Rev 22:17) and in John 3:16, the Greek does not present some up-to-chance "whosoever" that lacks pre-determination, but "the (one) desiring (hearing, thirsting) " or, in the English vernacular, "those wanting (hearing, thirsting)..."; and in John 3:16 it is "the ones believing..." —thus leaving the question of just who it is that hears, thirsts, desires and believes, wide open for God to determine.

 

[Red Baker]

Again, the author of Hebrews already told us why they are talking about Jacob and Esau at all. It wasn't to tell us, oh by the way, I loved Jacob and hated Esau. It was "so that His purposes according to the election would stand." And His purposes are not based on who Jacob and Esau are, or what they have done. Ephesians 1 says He did it all, according to the good purpose of His will. That is... He felt like it. I mean, shouldn't God be allowed to do whatever He wants without you, me, or anyone else telling Him He can't? If you don't follow our rules, then that is a FOUL!! But wait, this is God's house, therefore it is His rules, and the house always wins.

I agree with prism:

Lol, now it sounds as if you are making the case for the Calvinist.

Talking about being confuse!

Man did not lose the image. It became corrupted, but man did not lose it.

Who told you that man did not lose God's image? Have you never read and consider what the new birth is? Our new man created within us by the Spirit of God, is a new creation after the image of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 4: 22-24~"That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

Colossians 3:9,10~"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"

The old man Adam took on the image of Satan though his disobedience to God's commandment. The new birth is a creation of a new man after God's image secured for us by Jesus Christ!

Man did not lose the image. It became corrupted, but man did not lose it.

So you really do not believe that Adam fell and became a servant to both sin and the devil himself, and had no strength to deliver himself from his fall into sin You believe Adam just stump his little toe, and all he needed was a little band aid to correct his fall into sin.

Again, you have a one track mind on all of this, but it is multi-track.

One track mind according to God's testimony of truth. I do not even trust my on thoughts apart from God's testimony of what is truth.

I have seen your multi-track mind at work, in your first quote of this post where you defended Calvinism and then went the other way against what you said.

Got another meeting, but will address your other post to me soon. RB

 

[Red Baker]

How can you possibly say that God can't do something. God can love everyone and not be sinning.

TMSO~I never said or even that hinted God cannot do certain things~the only thing I know that God cannot do is sin, which includes many things, such as: be even tempted to sin, lie, not keeping his promises and oaths, etc.

How can you possibly say that God can't do something. God can love everyone and not be sinning.

He cannot love a known sinner that is not predestinated to salvation through Jesus Christ, impossible.

It has been customary to say God loves the sinner though He hates his sin. But that is a meaningless distinction. What is there in a sinner by sin? Is it not true that his “whole head is sick” and his “whole heart faint,” and that “from the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness” in him? (Isa. 1:5,6) Is it true that God loves the one who is despising and rejecting His blessed Son? God is Light as well as Love, and therefore His love must be a holy love. To tell the Christ-rejector that God loves him is to cauterize his conscience as well as to afford him a sense of security in his sins. The fact is, the love of God is a truth for the saints only, and to present it to the enemies of God is to take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs. With the exception of John 3:16, not once in the four Gospels do we read of the Lord Jesus, the perfect Teacher, telling sinners that God loves them! In the book of Acts, which records the evangelistic labors and messages of the apostles, God’s love is never referred to at all! But when we come to the Epistles, which are addressed to the saints, we have a full presentation of this precious truth ~ God’s love for His own. Let us seek to rightly divide the word of God and then we shall not be found taking truths which are addressed to believers and misapplying them to unbelievers. That which sinners need to have brought before them is the ineffable holiness, the exacting righteousness, the inflexible justice and the terrible wrath of God. Risking the danger of being misunderstood let us say — and we wish we could say it to every evangelist and preacher in the country ~ there is far too much presenting of Christ to sinners today (by those sound in the faith), and far too little showing sinners their need of Christ, i.e., their absolutely ruined and lost condition, their imminent and awful danger of suffering the wrath to come, the fearful guilt resting upon them in the sight of God: to present Christ to those who have never been shown their need of Him, seems to us to be guilty of casting pearls before swine.

If it be true that God loves every member of the human family, then why did our Lord tell His disciples “He that hath My commandments, and keepeth hem, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him.” (John 14:21,23)? Why say “he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father”? if the Father loves everybody? The same limitation is found in Prov. 8:17: “I love them that love Me.” Again we read, “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity” (Psa 5:5)! “God is angry with the wicked every day.” (Psa. 7:11) “He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God” — not “shall abide,” but even now — “abideth on him.” (John 3:36) Can God “love” the one on whom His “wrath” abides? Again, is it not evident that the words, “The love of God which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:39) marks a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love? Again, is it not plain from the words “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Rom. 9:13) that God does not love everybody? Again, it is written, “For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth.” (Heb. 12:6) Does not this verse teach that God’s love is restricted to the members of His own family? If He loves all men without exception, then the distinction and limitation here mentioned is quite meaningless. Finally, we would ask, Is it conceivable that God will love the damned in the Lake of Fire? Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change ~ The God of the scriptures is “without variableness or shadow of turning”!
​

Well, you would have to consider the definition of love in the context. See what follows for an example.
Luke 14
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

So... do you hate your father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, and even your own life? If you say you don't, then Jesus says you cannot be His disciple. And, since you are unwilling to recognize the difference in love, then you are not allowed to recognize a difference in hate here. So again, do you absolutely despise them with all your heart, and despise yourself? If not, you are not Jesus disciple. This is what your comment sounds to me about love.

Fair question, so, let me come back and make a post on this point.

 

[Alive]

If it be true that God loves every member of the human family, then why did our Lord tell His disciples “He that hath My commandments, and keepeth hem, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him.” (John 14:21,23)? Why say “he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father”? if the Father loves everybody? The same limitation is found in Prov. 8:17: “I love them that love Me.” Again we read, “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity” (Psa 5:5)! “God is angry with the wicked every day.” (Psa. 7:11) “He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God” — not “shall abide,” but even now — “abideth on him.” (John 3:36) Can God “love” the one on whom His “wrath” abides? Again, is it not evident that the words, “The love of God which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:39) marks a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love? Again, is it not plain from the words “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Rom. 9:13) that God does not love everybody? Again, it is written, “For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth.” (Heb. 12:6) Does not this verse teach that God’s love is restricted to the members of His own family? If He loves all men without exception, then the distinction and limitation here mentioned is quite meaningless. Finally, we would ask, Is it conceivable that God will love the damned in the Lake of Fire? Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change ~ The God of the scriptures is “without variableness or shadow of turning”!

Nice job with this. Would you comment on this verse?

1John 4:7 (WEBSTR) Beloved, let us love one another: for love is from God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for God is love.

 

[Red Baker]

Nice job with this. Would you comment on this verse?

1John 4:7 (WEBSTR) Beloved, let us love one another: for love is from God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for God is love.

1st John 4:7 ~ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.​

Beloved.

The affectionate apostle continued terms of endearment throughout his epistle at breaks. It is proper, if adopted children of God, the family of God, and household of faith. He used beloved five times; he used little children seven times. What an example!

Let us love one another.

Why the gentle word to love one another? Was it not taught already (I Jn 3:10-24)? Why is it so important? It is the greatest evidence, grace, means! Note one another. The one another duty of members toward each other must be obeyed and prayed for. John then introduced a slightly different angle on brotherly love by the nature of God.

For love is of God.

Here is a profound yet simple inspired axiom of our God, our religion, our worldview. What is love? Benevolent but intentional kindness to help another in every way needed. Love must be defined by God in the Bible – not by man or any other source or idea. It is selfless in that it is willing to sacrifice self in order to improve the life of another. It is for the good of others, thus it is the opposite of lust, which the world calls love. It never compromises righteousness or rejoices in iniquity, but always the opposite.

Where does love come from? Who created, designed, invented it? Who exemplifies it? Our glorious Creator God Jehovah is the First Cause of love. He is our loving Father. John had shown the natural man, the world, and Satan do not love (I John 3:11-15).

And every one that loveth is born of God.

If it were not for regeneration changing us from hate to love, we would not (Tit 3:3-7). Before regeneration (quickening), we are wicked followers of the devil (Eph 2:1-3).

Transforming power of God’s grace must be embraced, taught, sought in converts. Being born of God, regenerated, gives us a new nature, a seed, that loves (I Jn 3:9). Love is so much a part of the divine nature (and not ours) that it proves God in us. The order is clear by the verb tenses, not the order of verbs, regeneration must be first.

Verb tenses determine order of actions, for the cause of love is God recreating us. Every one that loveth = present tense; is born of God = perfect tense of a past action. The perfect tense means a completed action in the time period under consideration. We would say today in common speech – Anyone that loves has been born of God. We cannot and do not love first – God must change our nature first in order to love. John worded it differently in an earlier verse (I John 3:14), where he wrote, We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. Order clear!

And knoweth God.

Love of others shows not only the knowledge of God but compatibility of character. Walking with God, delighting in Him, fellowshipping with Him, will produce love. Love is so much a part of God’s nature that you must have it to show real connection. To make your calling and election sure, the top needs are brotherly kindness and charity.

1st John 4:8~He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.​

He that loveth not knoweth not God.

Assuming or telling that you know God without loving others is self-deceit and a fraud. Our character and conduct must declare love to all witnesses to truly know God. Without obvious and visible love of brethren, we have no true knowledge of God.

for God is love.

Our glorious creator God, the LORD Jehovah, has a very certain character trait – love! Men know love is a great and wonderful thing when shown to them, but God excels. For His glory and the praise of rational creatures, He revealed His intentional love. He showed His love to his elect; we are to copy (Matt 5:43-48; I Jn 3:16). The reprobates enjoy much of his goodness, though they never acknowledge its source.

Think, when your heart is full of good and gladness by weather or food (Acts 14:17).

Why would or could God kill His Son for His enemies? To magnify love (Rom 5:8)! His love is intentional; He made it possible and set it on us in eternity (Eph 1:3-6).

No matter that Arminians abuse and pervert His love, we know it in its glorious truth. They mock God and His love by declaring equal love for all men.

Their omniscient God lovingly created those He would send to the lake of fire– what cruelty!

All they talk about is His love, ignoring that the epistle began with … God is light!

They think evangelism is painting billboards or eyelids with John 3:16 for any man.

They think salvation is accepting this love then living your life any way you wish.

They make the Great Commission their calling, but loving the brethren is more love.

A man who lives for self and does not lay down his life for others does not know God.

 

[Alive]

Thank you for responding.

 

[JIM]

1st John 4:7 ~ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.​

Beloved.

The affectionate apostle continued terms of endearment throughout his epistle at breaks. It is proper, if adopted children of God, the family of God, and household of faith. He used beloved five times; he used little children seven times. What an example!

Let us love one another.

Why the gentle word to love one another? Was it not taught already (I Jn 3:10-24)? Why is it so important? It is the greatest evidence, grace, means! Note one another. The one another duty of members toward each other must be obeyed and prayed for. John then introduced a slightly different angle on brotherly love by the nature of God.

For love is of God.

Here is a profound yet simple inspired axiom of our God, our religion, our worldview. What is love? Benevolent but intentional kindness to help another in every way needed. Love must be defined by God in the Bible – not by man or any other source or idea. It is selfless in that it is willing to sacrifice self in order to improve the life of another. It is for the good of others, thus it is the opposite of lust, which the world calls love. It never compromises righteousness or rejoices in iniquity, but always the opposite.

Where does love come from? Who created, designed, invented it? Who exemplifies it? Our glorious Creator God Jehovah is the First Cause of love. He is our loving Father. John had shown the natural man, the world, and Satan do not love (I John 3:11-15).

And every one that loveth is born of God.

If it were not for regeneration changing us from hate to love, we would not (Tit 3:3-7). Before regeneration (quickening), we are wicked followers of the devil (Eph 2:1-3).

Transforming power of God’s grace must be embraced, taught, sought in converts. Being born of God, regenerated, gives us a new nature, a seed, that loves (I Jn 3:9). Love is so much a part of the divine nature (and not ours) that it proves God in us. The order is clear by the verb tenses, not the order of verbs, regeneration must be first.

Verb tenses determine order of actions, for the cause of love is God recreating us. Every one that loveth = present tense; is born of God = perfect tense of a past action. The perfect tense means a completed action in the time period under consideration. We would say today in common speech – Anyone that loves has been born of God. We cannot and do not love first – God must change our nature first in order to love. John worded it differently in an earlier verse (I John 3:14), where he wrote, We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. Order clear!

And knoweth God.

Love of others shows not only the knowledge of God but compatibility of character. Walking with God, delighting in Him, fellowshipping with Him, will produce love. Love is so much a part of God’s nature that you must have it to show real connection. To make your calling and election sure, the top needs are brotherly kindness and charity.

1st John 4:8~He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.​

He that loveth not knoweth not God.

Assuming or telling that you know God without loving others is self-deceit and a fraud. Our character and conduct must declare love to all witnesses to truly know God. Without obvious and visible love of brethren, we have no true knowledge of God.

for God is love.

Our glorious creator God, the LORD Jehovah, has a very certain character trait – love! Men know love is a great and wonderful thing when shown to them, but God excels. For His glory and the praise of rational creatures, He revealed His intentional love. He showed His love to his elect; we are to copy (Matt 5:43-48; I Jn 3:16). The reprobates enjoy much of his goodness, though they never acknowledge its source.

Think, when your heart is full of good and gladness by weather or food (Acts 14:17).

Why would or could God kill His Son for His enemies? To magnify love (Rom 5:8)! His love is intentional; He made it possible and set it on us in eternity (Eph 1:3-6).

No matter that Arminians abuse and pervert His love, we know it in its glorious truth. They mock God and His love by declaring equal love for all men.

Their omniscient God lovingly created those He would send to the lake of fire– what cruelty!

All they talk about is His love, ignoring that the epistle began with … God is light!

They think evangelism is painting billboards or eyelids with John 3:16 for any man.

They think salvation is accepting this love then living your life any way you wish.

They make the Great Commission their calling, but loving the brethren is more love.

A man who lives for self and does not lay down his life for others does not know God.

Do you know anyone who loves another who does not love God? Do you know of anyone who would and have lain down his life for others who do/did not know God? I do.

So that it is true that he who loves not his brother does not love God. But it is not true that he that loves his brother loves God.

 

[TMSO]

Lol, now it sounds as if you are making the case for the Calvinist.

While I don't call myself a calvinist, my beliefs are in line with calvinism.

 

[TMSO]

I do not have access to the book of life concerning whose names are written therein~but God does, and he tells us how we can know those we come into contact with if they are the very elect of God.

So you agree we can't know before? Also, I'm sure there are those who though Ravi Zaccharias was part of the elect, until his life came out into the open. Now... we can't be sure.

Many such scriptures tells us whose name are in the book of life of Lamb. It is not what group/church one belongs to, but do they believe and live righteous according to the word of God, determines if their name is in the book of life.

Well, yes. That is the individual. However, Hebrews speaks of non-believers who have neither accepted nor rejected Christ as having tasted of Christ. How? By being in the church. The blessings that fall on that church as a corporate entity, also falls on any non-believers in that church. Having tasted of it, and then finally rejecting, they shut themselves out of the kingdom.

If a man preaches, whosoever to include all men without an exception, then that man is preaching a lie. I do not care who he is, he is preaching another gospel. C. I. Scofield through his notes in the scriptures has done more harm than most false prophets in the last one hundred and twenty five years~with the exception of Jimmy Swaggart's Expositor Bible with his study notes in the bible.

Are you really going to tell Jesus He was wrong? We are to preach to everyone. God will save and keep His own. Jesus didn't say, go and make disciples of some nations. Jesus didn't stop talking because...well, THEY came along. If it was the self-righteous religious leaders, he condemned them, with the reason why. He sometimes used them as an object lesson for the people. Apparently you don't understand what it means to preach whosoever will. That means you aren't playing gate keeper for God, who can do that Himself. You preach to everyone, you persuade as John Calvin did, knowing that in the end, as Paul said, it is God who gives the increase. We don't know who God has chosen, and if you claim to know, you make yourself God. We are called to preach to all. Sure, there are some who will be so hostile that we don't waste our time on them. You talk to the others who are around.

To preach whosoever will is to put it in God's hands, since we don't know who God has elected. I'm surprised that you are so strongly against letting God do what He wills to do, to the point of saying that to preach/teach that way is a downright lie. If you believe that is preaching another gospel, then you don't know what the gospel is. The gospel isn't come to Christ, it is Christ and Christ crucified. If they teach that, and you say that that is a different gospel, then the problem lies with you not believing Christ is the heart of the gospel.

 

[TMSO]

I agree with prism:


Talking about being confuse!

You do realize that, while I don't call myself a calvinist, that I agree with most of what they teach right? Even Jesus Himself taught it.

Who told you that man did not lose God's image? Have you never read and consider what the new birth is? Our new man created within us by the Spirit of God, is a new creation after the image of Jesus Christ.

The Bible does not say that we lost the image of God, because humanity is the image of God. We would cease to be human if we lost God's image. You do understand what people believe God's image to be, right? It isn't that we look like God, but that one can faintly, dimly see God in what we are, and what we do. God reasons. We reason. God can create, and we can as well. God can design. We can design. All only dimly showing God. We did not lose that, it became corrupted.

The old man Adam took on the image of Satan though his disobedience to God's commandment. The new birth is a creation of a new man after God's image secured for us by Jesus Christ!

Can you please give a scripture that says that Adam took on the image of Satan. Please, if something that serious happened, then God would have said something about it. Why did God say "Come let us reason together", if we lost the ability to reason? To keep the ability to reason would be to remain in the image of God.

So you really do not believe that Adam fell and became a servant to both sin and the devil himself, and had no strength to deliver himself from his fall into sin You believe Adam just stump his little toe, and all he needed was a little band aid to correct his fall into sin.

No, Adam did not become a servant of the devil. Are you one of those who believe that God had to rescue us from SATAN, as though Satan has power over God? Adam offended God with His sin. He did not make Himself a servant of the devil, but a slave of sin. If man is Satan's slave, why did Satan have to go to God to ask God to do something to Job? I mean, you just said that we, through Adam, are slaves to the devil himself. The owner can do what he pleases to a slave. Just read what the Old Testament says. If one beats the slave and he survives the night, then dies, the owner is off the hook.

One track mind according to God's testimony of truth. I do not even trust my on thoughts apart from God's testimony of what is truth.

Except what you wrote above is not the testimony of what is truth from God.

I have seen your multi-track mind at work, in your first quote of this post where you defended Calvinism and then went the other way against what you said.

Of course I defend that which is parallel with the truth. I dislike systematized theology, such as Calvinism, because some/all calvinists do not allow for the possibility of drift. It isn't perfect, because it is systematized, but if you don't accept it exactly as it is written, then you are wrong. That is not the right answer.

Got another meeting, but will address your other post to me soon. RB

If you aren't a calvinist, or in line with them, you are missing a vital understanding of scripture. And no, calvinism is not the gospel. It is soteriology. If you can point out anywhere in scripture that says that a nonbeliever has to be a seminary graduate before they can come to salvation, then I may agree with you that calvinism is another gospel.

 

[TMSO]

TMSO~I never said or even that hinted God cannot do certain things~the only thing I know that God cannot do is sin, which includes many things, such as: be even tempted to sin, lie, not keeping his promises and oaths, etc.


He cannot love a known sinner that is not predestinated to salvation through Jesus Christ, impossible.

So again, you say God cannot do something, and yet you can't explain why. Does God hate His own image and likeness in which He created man? Again, man did not lose that, or man ceases to be human, and ceases to be what God created. In that case, God should have destroyed all humanity in the flood.

It has been customary to say God loves the sinner though He hates his sin. But that is a meaningless distinction. What is there in a sinner by sin?

It speaks to the overlying love God has for all humanity. It is the sin that stands against God, not the person on their own, that if sin disappeared the man would still be against God, and God against man. You still don't understand the levels to love.

Is it not true that his “whole head is sick” and his “whole heart faint,” and that “from the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness” in him? (Isa. 1:5,6) Is it true that God loves the one who is despising and rejecting His blessed Son? God is Light as well as Love, and therefore His love must be a holy love. To tell the Christ-rejector that God loves him is to cauterize his conscience as well as to afford him a sense of security in his sins. The fact is, the love of God is a truth for the saints only, and to present it to the enemies of God is to take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs. With the exception of John 3:16, not once in the four Gospels do we read of the Lord Jesus, the perfect Teacher, telling sinners that God loves them! In the book of Acts, which records the evangelistic labors and messages of the apostles, God’s love is never referred to at all! But when we come to the Epistles, which are addressed to the saints, we have a full presentation of this precious truth ~ God’s love for His own. Let us seek to rightly divide the word of God and then we shall not be found taking truths which are addressed to believers and misapplying them to unbelievers. That which sinners need to have brought before them is the ineffable holiness, the exacting righteousness, the inflexible justice and the terrible wrath of God. Risking the danger of being misunderstood let us say — and we wish we could say it to every evangelist and preacher in the country ~ there is far too much presenting of Christ to sinners today (by those sound in the faith), and far too little showing sinners their need of Christ, i.e., their absolutely ruined and lost condition, their imminent and awful danger of suffering the wrath to come, the fearful guilt resting upon them in the sight of God: to present Christ to those who have never been shown their need of Him, seems to us to be guilty of casting pearls before swine.

So you would undercut the gospel by telling the people you are preaching to that God hates them and will never love them? That's harsh. I mean, with what you believe, you would have to tell, hands down, every nonbeliever you meet that God simply abhores them, and God has called you for the purpose of reminding them. If God only loves His own, then He hated them when they weren't His own, right? Why would God then come to love those He hates?

If it be true that God loves every member of the human family, then why did our Lord tell His disciples “He that hath My commandments, and keepeth hem, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him.” (John 14:21,23)? Why say “he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father”? if the Father loves everybody? The same limitation is found in Prov. 8:17: “I love them that love Me.” Again we read, “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity” (Psa 5:5)! “God is angry with the wicked every day.” (Psa. 7:11) “He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God” — not “shall abide,” but even now — “abideth on him.” (John 3:36) Can God “love” the one on whom His “wrath” abides? Again, is it not evident that the words, “The love of God which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:39) marks a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love? Again, is it not plain from the words “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Rom. 9:13) that God does not love everybody? Again, it is written, “For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth.” (Heb. 12:6) Does not this verse teach that God’s love is restricted to the members of His own family? If He loves all men without exception, then the distinction and limitation here mentioned is quite meaningless. Finally, we would ask, Is it conceivable that God will love the damned in the Lake of Fire? Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change ~ The God of the scriptures is “without variableness or shadow of turning”!

Fair question, so, let me come back and make a post on this point.

If you have kids, I guess you can attest that if you ever get angry at them, then you hate them, right? I mean, that is the argument you are making here for God. And again, I see that you are not realizing that there is more then one meaning to love. You love your family. You love your friends, except you aren't allowed to love your friends, because they aren't your family. As you say, God can ONLY love members of His family, so therefore, you are only allowed to love members of your family. No friends. They you must hate, to keep in line with God's example, right? Wait, you love your friends? Why don't you take care of them like you take care of your family? What do you mean the love for a friend is different? How can that be. You have just spent this whole time arguing that there is only one kind of love. If there is more then one kind of love, then God must be capable of more then one kind of love, which undermines your argument.

 

[Red Baker]

So you agree we can't know before? Also, I'm sure there are those who though Ravi Zaccharias was part of the elect, until his life came out into the open. Now... we can't be sure.

Never heard of Ravi Zacharias~but, I agree we can never be sure of anyone. The best we can do is to be persuaded of some.

2 Timothy 1:5​

“When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.”

Love "demands/teaches" us that we believe the best of others until they show us otherwise. This is basically what I have lived by for most of my Christian life.

Well, yes. That is the individual. However, Hebrews speaks of non-believers who have neither accepted nor rejected Christ as having tasted of Christ. How? By being in the church. The blessings that fall on that church as a corporate entity, also falls on any non-believers in that church. Having tasted of it, and then finally rejecting, they shut themselves out of the kingdom.

Without going too much into Hebrews 6, I would not disagree with your understanding here. I believe Hebrews 6 is warning us not to continue seeking repentance from men/women that never commits themselves to the scriptures but are in and out. It is a fact that ministers waste a lot of time of what they call backsliders when in reality, they are nothing more than tares among the wheat and some are not even that! We should move on to other doctrines instead of preaching the same old message of repentance from dead work (which many of them have nothing more than that) laying the same foundation over and over again, is not allowing others to grow in grace and knowledge of the truth.

Are you really going to tell Jesus He was wrong? We are to preach to everyone. God will save and keep His own. Jesus didn't say, go and make disciples of some nations.

Really, where do you see that in the scriptures? Brother, you need to first ponder the scriptures and not listen to other voices outside of the word of God~or/and, compare all spirits to God's testimony of what is truth.

Do you know that Christ, forbid Paul to go into certain places?

Acts 16:6​

“Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,”

When the White horse left Jerusalem in Revelation six, it went up and turn left toward Europe! It did not go toward India and China, and even until this day we see the results of that!

Revelation 6:2​

“And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.”

The white horse (symbolic of men sent by God) from the early church went forth with the gospel from Jerusalem conquering and to conquer, and man did it ever! The church from Jerusalem turned the world upside down~but mostly through the regions we read about in the scriptures, hardly a word about India and China, even though we know eventually a few went there, but nothing like Europe! Those two countries make up most of the world's population~around 34%!

Apparently you don't understand what it means to preach whosoever will.

Pretty sure I do, and have for fifty years since my mid-twenties. Briefly:

Whosoever does not mean all without exceptions, but all without distinction! In the OT God made a clear distinction between Israel and other nations as to who his people where, or whom was He the God of. Under the NT, there is no distinction among nations as to who are the people of God, because he has chosen people from all nations of the earth. Whosoever will is a New Testament doctrine, and it is still limited to whom God calls.

1st Corinthians 1:26-31~"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

I understand well what the word whosoever mean, and could keep going to add to this, but not now.

That means you aren't playing gate keeper for God, who can do that Himself.

There's no gate in heaven, God does not need them! But I do have the power as others who belong to him have to blind and lose!

John 20:23​

“Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.”

We use the authority of the word of God.

I'll take a break and come back to finish answering.

 

[JIM]

Transforming power of God’s grace must be embraced, taught, sought in converts. Being born of God, regenerated, gives us a new nature, a seed, that loves (I Jn 3:9). Love is so much a part of the divine nature (and not ours) that it proves God in us. The order is clear by the verb tenses, not the order of verbs, regeneration must be first.

Are you really suggesting that all those pagan peoples of the world who love their children, their brothers and sisters, or other close relations and friends have been regenerated?

 

[Red Baker]

Are you really suggesting that all those pagan peoples of the world who love their children, their brothers and sisters, or other close relations and friends have been regenerated?

No, if they love God and his people, that's an evidence that they have been regenerated.

 

[JIM]

No, if they love God and his people, that's an evidence that they have been regenerated.

But I would argue that their loving God is the precedent for being born again (John 1:12-13; Rom 6:4; Col 2:12-13).

 

[Mr GLee]

So... do you hate your father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, and even your own life? If you say you don't, then Jesus says you cannot be His disciple. And, since you are unwilling to recognize the difference in love, then you are not allowed to recognize a difference in hate here. So again, do you absolutely despise them with all your heart, and despise yourself?

When it comes to Christianity hate is to not bless. Love is to work or labor to bless .

it is not despise your Mother and Father rather than love less .Put Christ first

Despise look down upon with strong contempt would seem to be different

God love, he works to bless .the let there be. Hate no action. Not just a feeling

As many as the father gave to the Son they alone can come. Not one more or less.