The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !

[TMSO]

If God Loved all men without exception, Christ words in Jn 14:21,23 are meaningless which are:

We are not talking about God loving all men without exception. That is a straw man. That is not what scripture is saying in John 3:16 when it says "For God so loved the world..." That love is a universal love from which common grace flows. Do note that if one considers this one verse, God would not have sent His only begotten Son if He had not so loved the world. Yet, John 3:16 is clear that the focus of John 3:16 is not the world, but those who would believe in His Son. There is the individual, and there is the individual love that is not without exception. The exception is those who are not believing in Christ. The will still perish and not have everlasting life. In this verse, we see there are two distinct levels to love with God. The group, which is not stated as "all men without exception", but is stated as "the world", and then those who are believing in His only begotten Son experience a whole other love at the individual level. They will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 14:21,23

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Again, this is love on an individual basis, and is not related to the universal love that causes it to rain on the just and the unjust, that causes both the righteous and unrighteous to sleep at night, and awaken in the morning, alive and breathing. Common grace comes from universal love.

23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Again, love on the individual level, except it also includes an individuals love to Christ. When have I ever said that God will make His abode with all mankind? The difference here should be obvious. It is a different love then the common love that exists because we are the handiwork of God's hands.

Again, if God loved all men without exception, that means that even though men do not Love and obey Christ can be assured of the Fathers Love, as indicated in Jn 3:16

Again, we aren't talking about God loving all men without exception. Adding without exception means you are bringing it down to the individual level. By definition, that would mean you aren't talking about a universal love, but an individual love. However, they are two different things. One is in connection with salvation, while the other is just the common love of a Creator for that which He created. If God hated what He created, that would make Him imperfect, since that would mean the work of His hands was imperfect.

Your strawman is "loved all men without exception". The reality is "For God so loved the world", which is followed by the salvation ONLY of those who are believing in His Son. Everyone else, without exception, will face the ire and wrath of God.

 

[TMSO]

So Gods Love is associated with Election as also here Rom 9:11-13


11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This already speaks to the character of love. The whole reason why it says "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" is so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, as based in the will of God, not the works or will of man. Jacob and Esau had yet to do anything, even be born, yet God had already decided that He would love Jacob and hate Esau. And He didn't say that to say He loved Jacob and hated Esau, but that the purpose of God according to election might stand.

Jacob is representative of the elect of God Loved, while his brother easu represents the non elect world, hated.

Yes. But I speak of a universal love which has no affect on election. Just as it rains on both the just and the unjust, the common grace of God falls on both those God loves and those God hates. Why? A universal love for His creation and the work of His hands. He isn't going to be the abusive father who hates his progeny to where He would suffer none to live. Common grace. Why? Universal love for what He created. He can't hate what He created, or then He made an imperfect thing, by which He Himself would logically be imperfect. So, as humanity, as the world, there is love. On the individual level, there is love and hate. The hate is not for the work of His hands, but that the purpose of God according to election might stand. The love is not for the work of His hands (at the individual level) but that the purpose of God according to election might stand.

So Jn 3:16 the world so loved is the Jacobs of the world!

The world so loved is humanity. While not all humanity benefits from the love that results from God having sent His Son into the world He so loved, it is still do to God so loving the world (universal) that He sent His Son to save some. So we go in this one verse from a universal love, to an individual love. (I hope I explained it better this time.) Again, equate the universal love to common grace. Common grace saves no one. Common grace excuses no one. Common grace is not God loving all men without exception, but is God loving the work of His hands as a group. Humanity, or, in this case, the world. God loved Adam and Eve, and Adam is/was the federal head of humanity, thus meaning God loved humanity. (for the sake of Adam?)

 

[TMSO]

I just think ANY argument/position is better with a scripture to illustrate/support it.
You offered no scripture in your post, so I added a scripture for anyone reading along.
[shrug]

Okay... (And I mean that in the way as I need to get to sleep, I can understand what you are saying and have no problem agreeing even if I haven't found the post yet. Thank you.) [I need to remember to always have grace, though I am imperfect.]

 

[brightfame52]

@TMSO

We are not talking about God loving all men without exception.

Yes I am, I started the thread remember ?

 

[brightfame52]

This already speaks to the character of love. The whole reason why it says "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" is so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, as based in the will of God, not the works or will of man. Jacob and Esau had yet to do anything, even be born, yet God had already decided that He would love Jacob and hate Esau. And He didn't say that to say He loved Jacob and hated Esau, but that the purpose of God according to election might stand.

Yes. But I speak of a universal love which has no affect on election. Just as it rains on both the just and the unjust, the common grace of God falls on both those God loves and those God hates. Why? A universal love for His creation and the work of His hands. He isn't going to be the abusive father who hates his progeny to where He would suffer none to live. Common grace. Why? Universal love for what He created. He can't hate what He created, or then He made an imperfect thing, by which He Himself would logically be imperfect. So, as humanity, as the world, there is love. On the individual level, there is love and hate. The hate is not for the work of His hands, but that the purpose of God according to election might stand. The love is not for the work of His hands (at the individual level) but that the purpose of God according to election might stand.

The world so loved is humanity. While not all humanity benefits from the love that results from God having sent His Son into the world He so loved, it is still do to God so loving the world (universal) that He sent His Son to save some. So we go in this one verse from a universal love, to an individual love. (I hope I explained it better this time.) Again, equate the universal love to common grace. Common grace saves no one. Common grace excuses no one. Common grace is not God loving all men without exception, but is God loving the work of His hands as a group. Humanity, or, in this case, the world. God loved Adam and Eve, and Adam is/was the federal head of humanity, thus meaning God loved humanity. (for the sake of Adam?)

Gods Love is limited to the Elect, you cant see it.

 

[brightfame52]

Did God Predestinate all without exception ? Eph 1:4-5


4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now some Translate the two words in love at the end of vs 4 and have them instead at the beginning of vs 5 as to read:


5 in love Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The NIV reads :

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to son ship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Here the period is put at the end of vs four after the word sight !

Now this being the case, and since God's Love here is the same as that in Jn 3:16, then we must suppose that God has predestined all without exception for adoption to Sonship in accordance with His Pleasure and will. So all without exception shall attain to The Image of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Now if all without exception are not predestinated unto this Image and attain unto it, God and His Love and His Predestination have failed. 2

 

[Biblelesson]

I disagree with you, and you seem to be in variance with what is clearly stated, that God hates some sinners. And that in opposition to the fact that He Loves some sinners Rom 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

So its seen distinctly two seperate groups of sinners are in view here, the hated by God and the Loved by God.

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son - Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all.

2 Peter 3:9 KJV, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Regarding Esau: Jacob and Esau were the two sons God established election through based on God’s for knowledge,
Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Believers in Christ are God’s elect. This election established in the two unborn children, establishes the believer under grace, and not works. God chose Jacob over Esau based on God’s for knowledge - of what they would do (good or evil), yet the election had to take place before they had done any good or evil to establish election for us.

So, based on God’s for knowledge of Esau, God hated him because of his evil ways. This is why Esau, being the elder son, did not receive the blessing.

Thus God is justifies in His election of the believer and not the non-believer, because based on His for knowledge He already knows what each will do. God calls those based on His for knowledge that a believer will believe. And does not call the one who will not believe - like Esau!

Romans 8:29 KJV
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

1 Peter 1:2 KJV
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

The one He knows will not believe, He does not call.

God hates all evil, but He loves His own creation, yet some will not believe bringing the wrath of God upon themselves.

 

[brightfame52]

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son - Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all.

2 Peter 3:9 KJV, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Regarding Esau: Jacob and Esau were the two sons God established election through based on God’s for knowledge,
Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Believers in Christ are God’s elect. This election established in the two unborn children, establishes the believer under grace, and not works. God chose Jacob over Esau based on God’s for knowledge - of what they would do (good or evil), yet the election had to take place before they had done any good or evil to establish election for us.

So, based on God’s for knowledge of Esau, God hated him because of his evil ways. This is why Esau, being the elder son, did not receive the blessing.

Thus God is justifies in His election of the believer and not the non-believer, because based on His for knowledge He already knows what each will do. God calls those based on His for knowledge that a believer will believe. And does not call the one who will not believe - like Esau!

Romans 8:29 KJV
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

1 Peter 1:2 KJV
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

The one He knows will not believe, He does not call.

God hates all evil, but He loves His own creation, yet some will not believe bringing the wrath of God upon themselves.

I disagree with you, and you seem to be in variance with what is clearly stated, that God hates some sinners. And that in opposition to the fact that He Loves some sinners Rom 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

So its seen distinctly two seperate groups of sinners are in view here, the hated by God and the Loved by God.

 

[Biblelesson]

I disagree with you, and you seem to be in variance with what is clearly stated, that God hates some sinners. And that in opposition to the fact that He Loves some sinners Rom 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

So its seen distinctly two seperate groups of sinners are in view here, the hated by God and the Loved by God.

God so loved the world…..

So now, your disagreement is with God, and God’s word, not us!

 

[brightfame52]

God so loved the world…..

So now, your disagreement is with God, and God’s word, not us!

Your disagreement is with God

 

[Carbon]

I think you are in error!

I think so to

 

[Carbon]

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son - Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all

You're not a Universalist are you?

 

[Carbon]

God so loved the world…..

So now, your disagreement is with God, and God’s word, not us!

Namely mankind in its generality.

I think if you read from the beginning of the chapter, that's plain to see.

 

[Biblelesson]

You're not a Universalist are you?

I don’t think you are getting universalist from the scriptures I quoted.

Every human being on earth has an opportunity to be saved. Salvation for all is in Christ Jesus. Now the problem comes in with those who reject Jesus. What can God do when He has opened up the way of salvation yet they reject the only way?

So, God does not condemn them; they condemn themselves. Based on God’s order of things, sin cannot come near Him - for every sin there must be death. God is a Holy God, so the the only way to avoid condemnation is to receive an atonement for your sins. It’s clear from the Old Testament that the blood of animal were shed to atone for Israel’s sin; those sacrifices represent or pointed to Christ and what He would ultimately accomplish for mankind. Christ is our atonement for sin for everyone who believes. Everyone means everyone, but some won’t believe.

There are those who will not believe in order to receive the atonement to save their souls. So, they make the choice - they condemned themselves, not God.

God tells us to choose life…

John 3:36 KJV
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Ezekiel 18:32 KJV
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

 

[TMSO]

Gods Love is limited to the Elect, you cant see it.

Wow. I have never stated that God does not have A love for the elect that is completely different then the universal love that kept God from wiping out humanity in the flood, that had God give the promise of redemption to Eve, that had Hitler wake up every morning to commit more evil, etc. There is a universal love, which is seen in common grace, mercy, etc. That love has nothing to do with how God considers the individual. It is like computers. If you go to the top teir of program access rights and put a deny (like no universal love), then no one would ever be able to access any of those programs. It doesn't even matter if you go to every program and set it to approve. That explicit deny trumps ALL. However, an explicit approve at the top level NEVER trumps a deny at a lower level. God's universal love for His creation does not deny Him the right to hate individuals and love individuals on an individual basis. That is why John 3:16 is written as it is. God's universal love for the world, for all humanity is what caused Him to send His Son that individuals who believe (individual level) may experience God'd PERSONAL love at the individual/elect level. That does nothing to change the fact that our Creator, has a love for His creation, which is why God bothered providing salvation in the first place. [Yes, it is all God's plan, however if you are going to speak simply at the level of man, so will I.]

 

[TMSO]

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son - Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all.

2 Peter 3:9 KJV, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Regarding Esau: Jacob and Esau were the two sons God established election through based on God’s for knowledge,
Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Believers in Christ are God’s elect. This election established in the two unborn children, establishes the believer under grace, and not works. God chose Jacob over Esau based on God’s for knowledge - of what they would do (good or evil), yet the election had to take place before they had done any good or evil to establish election for us.

So, based on God’s for knowledge of Esau, God hated him because of his evil ways. This is why Esau, being the elder son, did not receive the blessing.

Thus God is justifies in His election of the believer and not the non-believer, because based on His for knowledge He already knows what each will do. God calls those based on His for knowledge that a believer will believe. And does not call the one who will not believe - like Esau!

Romans 8:29 KJV
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

1 Peter 1:2 KJV
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

The one He knows will not believe, He does not call.

God hates all evil, but He loves His own creation, yet some will not believe bringing the wrath of God upon themselves.

God does not wish for any of the elect to perish, but that all the elect should come to repentance. Notice how Peter says that He is longsuffering to us-ward. That is towards His audience, which is believers. And no, the purpose of the election is that God chose, according to the pleasure of His good will, as Ephesians 1 says. Hence, they had not yet been born, had not yet done anything, but God had already chosen to love Jacob and hate Esau. In other words, it wasn't based on foreknowledge, but the good purpose of His will.

You say that God hated Easu because of his evil ways. Then why does God come right out and say that neither "had done any good or evil?" If God was using foreknowledge, He would have said that He already knew what they were going to do, in which case the purpose of God according to election fails. It is of "him that calleth". In other words, not works. However, you said that it was because of Esau's works that God hated him. Esau's evil ways. Which is it? Did God hate Esau because of his works, that is his evil ways, or was it "not of works, but of him that calleth"?

If we use foreknowledge as you state it, then our salvation is based on merit and works that God saw in the past, and thus He decided to save us based on that merit and works. You should read Ephesians 1 again. God chose before the foundation of the world. He chose in Christ, before the foundation of the world, which means He already planned everything, to include Jesus' sacrifice, before the foundation of the world. Hence, there is a purpose in God's election.

 

[Red Baker]

We are not talking about God loving all men without exception. That is a straw man.

TMSO~you either do not understand what a myth is, or what a strawman is, or both, no pun intended.

Look at the OP's title again:

The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !​

If you post in this thread, then that's what is being discuss, so do you agree or disagree with the thread's subject, is the point of discussion. The gentleman who started this thread disagrees with the myth, (a widely held but false belief or idea.) so, the question to you is simple, do you agree or disagree with the myth (a myth it is) with the false teaching that God loves all without distinction? Either say yes or no and go from there.

We are not talking about God loving all men without exception.

But you are, and it is you that has created a strawman and arguing with the strawman. Maybe not intentional, but you are nonetheless.

Do note that if one considers this one verse, God would not have sent His only begotten Son if He had not so loved the world.

We would and can consider any scriptures you or any man provides that they think supports their position on God's universal love of all men without an exceptions. For God does not love all men without an exception or all men equally, the scripture are very clear on this subject.

Let us consider the word world of John 3:16 spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus was speaking to a Jewish ruler, and he was revealing to Nicodemus that God's love was not confined to the Jewish nation but God loves some among the Gentiles nations as well. The word world is to be understood as all without an exception, not all without distinction! Need proof, you should ask for it, so here it is.

In the old testament, with very few exceptions, God's love was limited to the Jewish people. God was not the God of the Egyptian, or the Chinese's, or the Babylonians, etc. but the God of the Israelites. Under the NT, God is now visiting the Gentiles nations with very few Jews being considered. Now under The NT God is clearly seen to be the God of BOTH Jews and Gentiles and this is the sense of how we must understand God loving the world, meaning both Jews and Gentiles! Among both of these groups, God has an elect people.

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:” Jews and Gentiles =the world, but only the children of God's promises among each are loved by God through Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:23,24~"And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

One more for now:

Romans 10:12​

“For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”

Under the OT there was a major difference bewtween Jews and other nation, not oz. now under the NT. God's love is toward all nations for in them there are children's of God's promises whom he has purposed to show mercy to and he must visit them them in due time!

Luke 19:9​

“And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.”

I have a meeting, I'll finish later...RB

 

[JIM]

Luk 6:27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you....

So we are supposed to do what God, himself, doesn't do. I don't think so.

 

[Biblelesson]

Luk 6:27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you....

So we are supposed to do what God, himself, doesn't do. I don't think so.

I’m surprised to find nonbelievers on this forum and opposers of God!

 

[Biblelesson]

God does not wish for any of the elect to perish, but that all the elect should come to repentance. Notice how Peter says that He is longsuffering to us-ward. That is towards His audience, which is believers. And no, the purpose of the election is that God chose, according to the pleasure of His good will, as Ephesians 1 says. Hence, they had not yet been born, had not yet done anything, but God had already chosen to love Jacob and hate Esau. In other words, it wasn't based on foreknowledge, but the good purpose of His will.

You say that God hated Easu because of his evil ways. Then why does God come right out and say that neither "had done any good or evil?" If God was using foreknowledge, He would have said that He already knew what they were going to do, in which case the purpose of God according to election fails. It is of "him that calleth". In other words, not works. However, you said that it was because of Esau's works that God hated him. Esau's evil ways. Which is it? Did God hate Esau because of his works, that is his evil ways, or was it "not of works, but of him that calleth"?

If we use foreknowledge as you state it, then our salvation is based on merit and works that God saw in the past, and thus He decided to save us based on that merit and works. You should read Ephesians 1 again. God chose before the foundation of the world. He chose in Christ, before the foundation of the world, which means He already planned everything, to include Jesus' sacrifice, before the foundation of the world. Hence, there is a purpose in God's election.

Romans 9:11-14
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.