The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !

[JIM]

Nothing there for you.

And nothing there for you. Whatever you think is there is just in your head, not the bible.

 

[brightfame52]

And nothing there for you. Whatever you think is there is just in your head, not the bible.

Nothing there for you.

 

[JIM]

Nothing there for you.

Nothing there for you.

 

[brightfame52]

Nothing there for you.

Yes it is, you cant see it

 

[JIM]

Yes it is, you cant see it

Nothing there for you.

 

[brightfame52]

If God foreknew all without exception, then He predestinated all without exception, if He predestinated all without exception, then He called everyone without exception.

Rom 8:29-30

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And if He called all without exception, then He Justified all without exception, and if He Justified all without exception, then He Glorified all without exception. This must be True if God Loved all without exception ! 2

 

[Biblelesson]

If God foreknew all without exception, then He predestinated all without exception, if He predestinated all without exception, then He called everyone without exception.

The scripture did not mention forknew without exception. God’s forknowledge is His omniscience, knowing all things, declaring the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:10 KJV, being the the Alpha and the Omega. He knows us before we are born, Galatians 1:15 KJV (and many other scriptures), and he knew all of us before we were born, whether we would deny his son. So, based on God’s forknowledge, He predestined those who would believe to be conformed to Christ, these are those He called. Why should He predestinate a non-believer - in fact He can’t. So it’s been determined for non-believers that because they made the decision to not believe in Jesus, which God forknows this, before they are born, they are destined for hell fire.

God can only predestinated those who will believe on His Son. Because salvation is God’s work by His Spirit - for assurance to those who will believe. Yet, salvation is not denied to anyone. But, there happen to be those who chooses to deal with God’s word deceitfully and
refuse to accept Christ to be saved. What can God do when He already made a way? The way is open to all, but He calls those who will. Not those who won’t- can a stone be turned into a flower? No! We all are given the choice to choose life and live! But some choose death and will die - because they deny Christ who is our sacrifice for sin - our atonement- our propitiation - our High Priest - our righteousness - our salvation. There is no other - that can save!

Do you believe a judge should award a murderer for being a murderer who has murder in his heart? No! So, what choice does the judge have?

 

[JIM]

The scripture did not mention forknew without exception. God’s forknowledge is His omnipotentance,

I think you meant omniscience.

 

[Biblelesson]

I think you meant omniscience.

Yes, thank you! I will correct the word in my post - it’s most appropriate.

 

[Carbon]

The scripture did not mention forknew without exception. God’s forknowledge is His omniscience, knowing all things, declaring the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:10 KJV, being the the Alpha and the Omega. He knows us before we are born, Galatians 1:15 KJV (and many other scriptures), and he knew all of us before we were born, whether we would deny his son. So, based on God’s forknowledge, He predestined those who would believe to be conformed to Christ, these are those He called. Why should He predestinate a non-believer - in fact He can’t. So it’s been determined for non-believers that because they made the decision to not believe in Jesus, which God forknows this, before they are born, they are destined for hell fire.

That's very man-centered theology. You can keep it.

God can only predestinated those who will believe on His Son.

Nonsense. God does not depend on man for His decrees to come to pass.

Because salvation is God’s work by His Spirit - for assurance to those who will believe.

Not according to what you are saying. Your teaching salvation is man's work and as long as God knows who will come, and who will believe, the Spirit's prevenient grace will get save them.

Yet, salvation is not denied to anyone.

Of course not.

But, there happen to be those who chooses to deal with God’s word deceitfully and
refuse to accept Christ to be saved.

News flash! That's everyone

What can God do when He already made a way? The way is open to all, but He calls those who will.

Haha, cant take any chances, right?

Not those who won’t- can a stone be turned into a flower? No!

Silly, unbiblical illistration.

We all are given the choice to choose life and live!

And where is that taught?

But some choose death and will die - because they deny Christ who is our sacrifice for sin - our atonement- our propitiation - our High Priest - our righteousness - our salvation. There is no other - that can save!

Humanism at its finest.

Do you believe a judge should award a murderer for being a murderer who has murder in his heart? No! So, what choice does the judge have?

 

[Mr GLee]

Jim, what does this scripture say to you?

1st John 4:19~"We love him, because he first loved us."

Please answer my question, then I want to come back and give you my understanding.

Three things as the essence of God. God is Light. .God is Spirit and God is Love. whose name is Jealous he owns all things But grace the power of his love working in us, is not jealous .

The first work of love is long suffering and therefore can be kind and in the end strengthen .Bearing all things, believing all things, hoping all things, endure all things.

We can love because he first gave His labor of love as a work of His faithfulness . "The let there be kind" the good understanding.

Many deny God uses his belief/faith. They say he needs no faith (Power).

He gives us little of his labor of love calling us those of little faith. . . plenty that works in believers to both hear the will and do it to please our father .

In that way not of our own selves . Faith is a work believing something will appear. . . . and does .Dead faith, does not

My wife faithfully sends me her apostle to the supermarket with a writen list not to add to or subtract from . . . mission accomplished I receive an apostles reward .Two home made peanut butter cookies and a glass of milk
.
He loving commandment repent and do the first works . . .believe God return to me your first love

 

[TMSO]

Gods Love is limited to the Elect, you cant see it.

Let us try again. God loves all of makind. The problem is that the exception is not that there are individuals of the human group that He doesn't love. The exception is that THIS love cannot, and will not overlook sin. It is a love for His creation. Jesus spoke of it. Esau, written in Hebrews, is an exception because the author is explaining unconditional election. God hated Esau not because of what Esau had done or would do, but because, jump to Ephesians 1, He chose according to "the good purpose of His will". A simple way of saying, He felt like it. There is a universal love for all mankind, however, I will repeat again, it does not overcome sin. It does not overlook sin. It is not a mushy, gushy, emo kind of love. It is a love for the work of His hands, His special created that was created in His image. For God not to love that which is in His image, could that not mean He doesn't have a love for Himself?

There are those who want a universal love that is mushy, gushy, and emo so they can claim universalism. There is no way God will doom those He loves. However, the love He has for His creation can never, and will never, overcome His justice and His holiness. Hence, due to this love He had for ALL mankind (again, this love, one that cannot and does not overcome sin), He sent His Son into the world to save those He foreordained to the adoption of children through Christ. This is a different love (kind of obvious.) A familial love. A self-sacrificing love. (His own Son.) English is weak in that it only has the one word love, which means one has to define it in context. Greek has several words for love that defines it in the word. God has a universal love for His creation, however, that does not rise up to the level of love God has for His elect. The Creation is the work of His hands, the elect are... family. Adopted children. Fellow inheritors in the Kingdom after Christ. (Ephesians 1)

It is not a myth that God loves all humanity. It is a myth that that love saves. It does not. That love provides... mercy and common grace. It provides for us waking up in the morning alive. (Though waking up dead still sounds weird.) It is that which kept God from destroying all mankind. There is no reason to rewrite doctrine for a love that doesn't rise to the point of notice when speaking of the elect and salvation. However, don't ignore that love, or you end up reinterpreting the Bible, and missing the point. Hence why the author of Hebrews clearly states that the whole situation with Jacob and Esau was so that God's purposes in election might stand. If you decide to throw out a full understanding, then you might as well throw out election.

 

[Red Baker]

Let us try again. God loves all of makind. The problem is that the exception is not that there are individuals of the human group that He doesn't love. The exception is that THIS love cannot, and will not overlook sin. It is a love for His creation. Jesus spoke of it.

TMSO, I'm still waiting on you to answer my post #42 to you. I'll let brightfame52 answer this post since it was directed to him, and once he does, then I have a few things to say about your confused post.

 

[Red Baker]

Let us try again.

Try as many times as you think you need to do so, and every time you will be wrong. Folks like you remind me of folks doing the same thing over and over, when what they are trying to accomplish never works, because they never address the problem the second time after the first failed attempt.

Example: like trying to start a mower over and over again, with no results and not correcting of the problem in order to make it start~something as simple as a spark plug could have saved them precious time, not to mention solving the problem as to why it did not work the first attempt.

God loves all of mankind.

God does not love all men without exception, never has, never will. He does love all men without distinction of their origin and status in life.

He can only love those whom he has chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and there purpose to show mercy and grace to those that were chosen in Christ, all according to his own purpose and grace without any preference to works, since it was done before they did any good or evil.

How can you possible say God loves all of mankind when God word said just the opposite? Hear the word of God.

God hates all sinners.​

This is plainly taught in Psalm 5:4-6 and 11:4-6, though these verses are generally ignored. Here are two verses that specifically address the subject at hand – there are people God hates. In spite of these verses, people want to keep right on believing, “God couldn’t hate anybody.” God hates sinners – the wicked in these verses – because He hates sin, and sinners love sin.

It is the imagination of weak minds that gently coos, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner.” This statement is a profane lie! Folks believe ~ Noah should have had a banner across the side of the ark comforting the drowning rebels with the words, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner”?

This statement is a profane lie! Should Joshua have had ensigns before the armies of Israel as they exterminated the Canaanites with the words, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner”? Consider: There is nothing in man justifying God’s love; there is nothing in God requiring He love man.

Throughout the word of God, there are two great classes of men – the wicked and the righteous, the reprobates and the elect, the sinners and saints, the children and the bastards, the church and the rest, the saved and the lost, vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, etc., etc.

It is a result of confused thinking to say, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner.” Sin is not a separate thing that can be hated and punished by itself. Sin is the rebellious choice of a rational creature to despise His Creator and violate His commandments. God hates the actor and activity of this rebel creature. He will send persons to the lake of fire, not sins. The saying is a profane lie!

God hates both the sin and the sinner (Leviticus 20:23; Deuteronomy 18:12; 25:16; Psalms 2:4-9; 7:11; 10:3; Proverbs 3:31-34; 6:16-19; 16:5; 17:5; Malachi 1:3-4; Ist Corinthians 16:22; Revelation 14:10-11).

The apparent dilemma with God loving His elect will be explained in detail in following posts; but let it be remembered that God’s elect are not sinners or workers of iniquity, for God has viewed them as holy and without blame since before the world began, when He chose them in Christ Jesus their Surety (Ephesians 1:3-6)! Whatever dilemma there may seem to be, in the mind of man, can easily be explained with the scriptures.

The problem is that the exception is not that there are individuals of the human group that He doesn't love.

Those are thoughts from your own hearts, not from God's word! You believe this because you want to believe this.

The exception is that THIS love cannot, and will not overlook sin. It is a love for His creation. Jesus spoke of it.

While we agree that God's love cannot and will not overlook sin, thereby he provided a surety for those he elected out of pure love without any consideration of good or evil on their part. Consider:

God alone is immutable, and God in his foreknowledge of all things knew that if he first did not elect some to salvation, then he knew none would have ever have been saved by their own obedience, so he had an election by grace both among angels and man. For the angels that fell, God did not provide redemption for them, but they at once became the object of his hatred and wrath.


Coming back to finish.

 

[JIM]

It is a result of confused thinking to say, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner.” Sin is not a separate thing that can be hated and punished by itself. Sin is the rebellious choice of a rational creature to despise His Creator and violate His commandments. God hates the actor and activity of this rebel creature. He will send persons to the lake of fire, not sins. The saying is a profane lie!

God hates both the sin and the sinner (Leviticus 20:23; Deuteronomy 18:12; 25:16; Psalms 2:4-9; 7:11; 10:3; Proverbs 3:31-34; 6:16-19; 16:5; 17:5; Malachi 1:3-4; Ist Corinthians 16:22; Revelation 14:10-11).

The apparent dilemma with God loving His elect will be explained in detail in following posts; but let it be remembered that God’s elect are not sinners or workers of iniquity, for God has viewed them as holy and without blame since before the world began, when He chose them in Christ Jesus their Surety (Ephesians 1:3-6)! Whatever dilemma there may seem to be, in the mind of man, can easily be explained with the scriptures.

Now given that you and I have agreed in the past that even the elect commit sin. So does God love your sin? Or does God, counter what you just said above, hate your sin but love you? Is your sin, as you claimed above, the "rebellious choice of a rational creature to despise His Creator and violate His commandments"?

When you say that God's elect are not sinners, you need to put some specificity on that statement. Even Paul admitted that " I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members" (Rom 7:23).

 

[Red Baker]

Now given that you and I have agreed in the past that even the elect commit sin. So does God love your sin? Or does God, counter what you just said above, hate your sin but love you? Is your sin, as you claimed above, the "rebellious choice of a rational creature to despise His Creator and violate His commandments"?

When you say that God's elect are not sinners, you need to put some specificity on that statement. Even Paul admitted that " I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members" (Rom 7:23).

Fair question~Jim, the different bewtween the elect and non-elect is that we do not love sin, it grieves us knowing that sin is present, even during our most holy acts of worshipping our God, be whatever that act may be.......... prayers, teaching, witnessing, etc. You name it, sin is present, and will be until the day when we leave this body of sin and death

Paul said.....Romans 7:21~"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."

Jim, another point to remember~ God loves us on the behalf of us being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. God does not love us because of any work which we have done, are doing, or will do, but solely based upon Christ being our surety, fulfilling God's law perfectly for us, and we in him as members of his elect body, he being the head thereof.

No, God hates all sin, but he sees us in Christ legally speaking, and his love never changes toward us, impossible for his love to change toward us. When we sin, God chasten us and withholds his best from us, until we repent, and if we do not repent, then there is a sin unto death for even his elect. If God does not chasten us, then we are bastards and not sons of God. You know the scriptures I do not need to post them.

Jim, I did say this above:

Red Baker~ While we agree that God's love cannot and will not overlook sin..........

Even in his elect, he will chasten them for their sins, especially so, when knowingly they sin against light that has been given to them.

 

[JIM]

Fair question~Jim, the different bewtween the elect and non-elect is that we do not love sin, it grieves us knowing that sin is present, even during our most holy acts of worshipping our God, be whatever that act may be.......... prayers, teaching, witnessing, etc. You name it, sin is present, and will be until the day when we leave this body of sin and death

Paul said.....Romans 7:21~"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."

Jim, another point to remember~ God loves us on the behalf of us being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. God does not love us because of any work which we have done, are doing, or will do, but solely based upon Christ being our surety, fulfilling God's law perfectly for us, and we in him as members of his elect body, he being the head thereof.

Most, but not all, of that I can agree with. The problem is not so much God's view and dealing with the elect. The problem is the false Calvinistic definition of the elect, and how they become the elect.

No, God hates all sin, but he sees us in Christ legally speaking, and his love never changes toward us, impossible for his love to change toward us. When we sin, God chasten us and withholds his best from us, until we repent, and if we do not repent, then there is a sin unto death for even his elect. If God does not chasten us, then we are bastards and not sons of God. You know the scriptures I do not need to post them.

And once again, I think you lack a good understanding of forgiveness. Yes, we are forgiven our sins. But we do not bounce out of forgiveness with each sin and then bounce back into forgiveness with each repenting. The truth is that we are forgiven. It is a state of being for the one who has been saved. More to the point, having been justified is a one-time declaration by God. It is not an on-again-off-again condition for the baptized believer. It is a state of being. We are saved by grace through faith. We continue in that salvation by grace through faith. We are justified by our faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Red Baker]

Esau, written in Hebrews, is an exception because the author is explaining unconditional election. God hated Esau not because of what Esau had done or would do, but because, jump to Ephesians 1, He chose according to "the good purpose of His will". A simple way of saying, He felt like it.

Esau was not an exception, but an example of God's sovereign love based upon the purpose and will of God alone so that man can see that salvation from sin and condemnation is solely based upon the will of God calling whosoever he would. Romans 9:11-14

There is a universal love for all mankind, however, I will repeat again, it does not overcome sin. It does not overlook sin. It is not a mushy, gushy, emo kind of love. It is a love for the work of His hands, His special created that was created in His image. For God not to love that which is in His image, could that not mean He doesn't have a love for Himself?

God knew before creating man after his image, that man would lose that image in his disobedience to God's word. He became at once at enmity against God, thereby, God owes man nothing but his wrath toward his disobedience. God can only love us through Jesus Christ, and apart from Christ, he does not love any, nor owes man anything, but his wrath toward his sin. We will say this, that even in God's hatred toward his enemies, he does show a certain amount of kindness to all, but it only adds to his wrath when they continue not to acknowledge his goodness, by sending them fruitful seasons, year after year. Everything works so perfectly within God's creation, so perfectly one could draw a line in the sand that the proud waves will not pass over! Yet man in his depravity will not acknowledge God's handiwork.

Job 38:11​

“And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?”

I'll come back, I have an appointment this morning.

 

[JIM]

Once again you posit a command issued to all mankind which even God does not abide. You would present God as demanding that we love those that He hates.

 

[TMSO]

TMSO~of course the focus is on the word "world", since before Christ came into the world, the religion of God was maintained by the Jewish people from Abraham onward. God made himself known mainly though Abraham's natural seed, the Jewish people~It was called the Jews rellgion in distinction from all other religions of the world.

Galatians 1:14​

“And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.”

Emphasis are mine for discussions. God does make exception, your understanding attempting to say the exceptions lies in one not believing is incorrect. The very fact some do believe proves the exceptions by God's choice, not man's! Before moving on let is take carefully look at John 3:16 to show my point even more.

John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

This well known verse is understood by very few. This scripture is a scripture "declaring a bible truth" ~ it is not a conditional scripture, with a promise attached to it. The bible truth it is declaring is...those that believe have everlasting life and shall never perish in the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Above you added to this scripture by saying: "those who would believe" ~as though it was in their power to do so~which we know from many scriptures this is not so~actually, impossible apart from God's showing his power in creating a new man within them first, which then would give them that power.

I'm coming back to address more your post.

Those who would is leaving it open. Why? Well, I seem to have lost mine, so could I borrow your roll call of the elect sheet? That way, I can change it from those who would, which is how humans understand life, to make the blanket statement that I know who the elect are, and these exact people, by name, will believe. We don't know. Schofield (I believe) said that until he receives a roll call of the elect, he will continue to preach whosoever will. Why do you seem to believe that this would break scripture?