The judgment seat of Christ comes with Him to earth

[Josheb]

No, the results of the literal earthquake at Christ's return were not going to be of a level so severe and catastrophic that Jerusalem would be destroyed by that earthquake.

The text of Zechariah 14 indicates otherwise. See Post 40 above.

Jerusalem was not destroyed by the earthquake back in King Uzziah's day, and neither was Jerusalem literally destroyed by the earthquake at Christ's return. Zechariah 14:4-5 directly compares both of these occasions of an earthquake as being duplicates of each other.

Zechariah 14:4-5 in the LXX tells us that it was the Kidron Valley that was going to be "blocked up as far as Azal" at Christ's return. This was the result of landslide rubble from the earthquake falling downhill from the crest of the Mount of Olives being split into North, South, East and West. Yes, it was a literal earthquake on both occasions of King Uzziah's days and at the time of Christ's return, but not to the severe level that you are supposing, because the actual city of Jerusalem was not destroyed by an earthquake on either occasion. AD 70 Jerusalem was for the most part destroyed from within by the Zealots coming from "Galilee of the Gentiles" trampling the city and the sanctuary underfoot for those 42 months from AD 66-70. Rome finally came to finish off that destruction by the close of the war in AD 70, when they tore all the buildings down to ground level along with the temple.

That's nice, but it's a waste of time because it ignores what is stated in the rest of Zechariah 14.


And no one sues the Septuagint anymore. We have Zechariah in Hebrew just a few mouse-clicks away. I know you like the LXX, but every time it is cited the commentary reads obsolete and ill-informed.

Zechariah 14:4-5's earthquake and Christ's return to the Mount of Olives had already taken place earlier in AD 70.

I tend to agree but, again, that has absolutely nothing to do with the point currently being discussed. Zec 14:4 cannot be read literally because the literal reading of the whole passage means Jerusalem gets destroyed and that is wholly contradicting of the premillennialism asserted in this op. There's be no Jerusalem left in which the seat of judgment could reside if Zec. 14:4 is taken literally.

That premillennial interpretation is bad exegesis.

 

[CrowCross]

It's not what I myself am saying: it is what Zechariah said. And the deep layer of landslide rubble lying in the Kidron Valley today is dated by archaeologists to the first century when it was deposited in the bed of the Kidron Valley. Go and argue with that 40' deep layer of rocks blocking up the Kidron Valley as far as the Azal location if you are so inclined. Those rocks deposited in the Kidron Valley back then in the first century were Christ's calling card announcing His return to that Mount of Olives location, just as promised for that first-century generation.

As I said, you can believe whatever you want to believe....BUT...the Mt of Olives didn't split like is mentioned in Zech 14. Sorry.

Many Preterits types want to believe prophecy such as presented in the book of Revelations has happened...but can't show historically that it did.

 

[Josheb]

As I said, you can believe whatever you want to believe....BUT...the Mt of Olives didn't split like is mentioned in Zech 14. Sorry. Many Preterits types want to believe prophecy such as presented in the book of Revelations has happened...but can't show historically that it did.

This isn't about preterism. The fact remains there is no mention of the seat of judgment in Zechariah 14. Zec. 14 is a huge red herring, a diversion whose function is to avoid the subject of discussion (the seat of judgment's move to earth).

 

[CrowCross]

This isn't about preterism. The fact remains there is no mention of the seat of judgment in Zechariah 14. Zec. 14 is a huge red herring, a diversion whose function is to avoid the subject of discussion (the seat of judgment's move to earth).

That would depend on where the judgement takes place....White Throne....I never really thought about the location. I have never looked.

If Rev 20 is linear in time then it occurs after or at the end of the 1,000 year reign and the White Throne may very well be on earth.

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes, it's quite literal. Why would any reader thinks it's a parable?

Other than without parable Christ spoke not?

why would you think it is literal the historallly must be mixed with the seen eternal (faith Christ in us )

 

[Mr GLee]

The Zec. 1:4 verse does not need to be parable to be metaphor or otherwise figurative.

I've covered this many times. If we do NOT remove that one verse from its text and we examine the whole passage something important, something critical learned. First, the passage describes an earthquake that, if taken literally, is so severe it literally destroys Jerusalem. If the city of Jerusalem is destroyed then there's no inhabitants left over which to reign and no city in which to establish his throne, rule, or reign. In other words, the literal interpretation instantly become self-contradictory. Jesus' literally setting foot on the Mount of Olives, literally causing the mount to split in a literal earthquake that literally moves the mount's halves north and south (the rift or divide runs east and west) and thereby literally destroying the city from which he's then supposed literally reign is a huge self-refuting problem.

No sign were given to wonder after. Believers have prophecy .

Jesus the prophet calls signs and wonders a evil generation, natural unconverted mankind (no faith)

Satan the king of lying sign to wonder after (his only voice) as oral traditons of dying mankind.

Its is never about the earthly corrupted dying city but is about the eternal city the new Jerusalem heavenly. the one and only Christian city,
Christ not seen named after our husband and founder of the city .

The apostles make the same error. Looking to the temporal dying man's oral traditons.(grape vine) . Not the eternal living word .

He rebuked them that ignore the parables .

Luke 9:50-55 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Without parables Christ spoke not .beginning in Genesis.

The proper mixing instructions must be applied or it remains a unsolved mystery (parable)

2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[Mr GLee]

That would depend on where the judgement takes place....White Throne....I never really thought about the location. I have never looked.

If Rev 20 is linear in time then it occurs after or at the end of the 1,000 year reign and the White Throne may very well be on earth.

Jesus the Son of man sat in the judgment seat of Christ. The father striking the Son of man jesus bruising his heel crushing the head of the serpent ) as a representative of new creatures. He was found guilty.

Death as in dying is the appointment we all make.... beginning at birth. . no retrial or double jeapordy.

 

[CrowCross]

Other than without parable Christ spoke not?

why would you think it is literal the historallly must be mixed with the seen eternal (faith Christ in us )

Jesus didn't always speak in parables.

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus the Son of man sat in the judgment seat of Christ. The father striking the Son of man jesus bruising his heel crushing the head of the serpent ) as a representative of new creatures. He was found guilty.

Death as in dying is the appointment we all make.... beginning at birth. . no retrial or double jeapordy.

The father struck Jesus' heal????

 

[Mr GLee]

The father struck Jesus' heal????

Not heal. . . .heel .

Healing the result of the father sticking the Son.

Bruised heel yes. By his wounds we are healed .The fulfilment of two prophecies (Genesis 3 with Isiah 53.Both speaking of the same "demonstration" of the work finished from the first six day the father did work .

The word three used a metaphor in parables it denotes the end of a matter. Like strike three

When finished with that garden demonstration (non bloody) then the second part. . the bloody cross a sign to the whole unbelieving world prophesied in Deuteronomy 21 :22-23 the hill of Skull a different kind . . again all three demonstrations of the lamb slain from the foundation. supports the same gospel. Then part three the demonstration of the tomb The demonstration of faith the unseen work of the father .

Having removed the grave clothes from the Son of man, Jesus the father rolled back the stone . .the end of the three demonstrations as parables

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; Chrsit) it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Isiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The first part of the three part prophesied demonstration began in the garden of Gethsemane the father stiking the Son the Son sufering unto death (not dead) unto death . When finished with that part of the demonstration ion then they moved to the ros and last but not least the demonstration of the tomb there different demonstration. . . three days and nights

Deuteronomy 21;22-23 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

In order .Garden. . Cross. . Tomb

 

[Mr GLee]

Jesus didn't always speak in parables.

Christ eternal God and not the Son of man Jesus the apostle he sent with prophecy from the father . When eternal God, Christ prophesied without parables the signified tongue of Christ. . he spoke not .

The burden is on you. It would be up to you to seek out the hidden understanding. He has not left without tools needed to rightly divide parables The 20 /20 prescription below is needed to rightly divide parables it must be used or there is no gospel rest

2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; (historical) but the things which are not seen are eternal

Matthew 13:34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

 

[Josheb]

That would depend on where the judgement takes place....White Throne....

There is no throne (or seat) in Zec. 14.

I never really thought about the location. I have never looked.

Then what are you doing here discussing this op? This op asserts the premise the "judgment seat" or "seat of judgment" is moved. The op says it is moved twice, once to the air, and then again to the earth. The op further says the judgment begins when the seat is moved to the air. I think he's played a little fast and loose with this "judgment seat" because he's also broken judgment down into multiple judgments of multiple types, beginning with a "judgment of works," followed by a judgment of the nations. The op also discriminates between wheat and weeds, sheep and goats. Apparently, there are four types of people, not two. Apparently, there are multiple judgments of multiple types and none of it concerns the judgment(s) already accomplished (as I have shown scripture to plainly , explicitly reported.

Most importantly, however, there's not a single verse in the Bible that ever actually explicitly states the judgment seat is physically on earth.

The seat itself has been inferred through the assumptions various judgments of various types of people occur at different times in different locales. In other words, the op seems to be a fairly simple one-note position but when closely examined it is actually asserting a variety of underlying premises and it has not bothered to show any of them exist in scripture - scripture that is plainly read as written and properly exegeted.

If Rev 20 is linear in time then it occurs after or at the end of the 1,000 year reign and the White Throne may very well be on earth.

I completely agree. That makes it post-millennial, not pre-millennial! I mean small "p" post-, not Postmillennial, but post-millennial. Since the judgment of the judgment seat (or throne) takes place after the millennium the Dispensational-style, modern futurism asserted by this op is the outlier. Historicism, Amillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Idealism all agree on this point: the judgment occurs after the millennium, not before. These four end-times doctrines agree on other points, too - such as the raptured and judgment not being separated by a long period of time in between.




And I and curious why it is I am not reading any follow up on my examination of Zech 14. I was asked to show where the earthquake destroys Jerusalem and I provided that information. Why am I now hearing crickets chirping? I clearly disagree with our preterist brother so you can't throw me into the same bin and dismiss what Zec 14 says. If the text of Zechariah 14:4 and its surrounding words are read literally then the literal reading becomes unrealistic because the ensuing earthquake described by those words would literally destroy Jerusalem. What say you?

 

[Josheb]

No sign were given to wonder after.

Who said there was?

 

[3 Resurrections]

The fact remains there is no mention of the seat of judgment in Zechariah 14. Zec. 14 is a huge red herring, a diversion whose function is to avoid the subject of discussion (the seat of judgment's move to earth).

You are correct on this point. Christ's return to the Mount of Olives was to gather His resurrected saints and return to heaven with them - to "rapture" those bodily-resurrected saints off this planet as Paul taught in 1 Thess. 4, using His holy angels that came with Him to do that gathering of the saints out of the grave. On that occasion, Christ Jesus was not going to remain on the earth to set up a judgment seat at that location (or any other location on earth either). When the saints "stand before the Son of Man" and are "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy", this is a celestial scene - not taking place on earth - in which all the saints were to be given rewards according to their works, whether less or more.

If the text of Zechariah 14:4 and its surrounding words are read literally then the literal reading becomes unrealistic because the ensuing earthquake described by those words would literally destroy Jerusalem. What say you?

No, Jerusalem was NOT to be physically destroyed by the earthquake on this occasion, any more than it was physically destroyed by the earthquake back in King Uzziah's days, to which this other earthquake is directly compared in Zechariah 14:5.

There is no "valley" which is created by this earthquake on the Mount of Olives, according to the LXX translation of this Zechariah 14:4-5 text. The valley is BLOCKED UP as far as the AZAL location by the Mount of Olives' rocks being broken apart by the earthquake in all directions of the compass, and falling downhill to fill up the Kidron Valley.

"And his feet shall stand in that day on the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave asunder, half of it toward the east and the west, a very great division; and half the mountain shall lean to the north, and half of it to the south. And the valley of my mountains shall be closed up, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined on to Jasod, and shall be blocked up as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake, in the days of Ozias king of Juda; and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with him."

Nobody "flees" through a supposed valley created by the earthquake. This verb "Flee" has been mistakenly translated and substituted for the real verb, leading to confusion in the interpretation of this passage.

 

[CrowCross]

There is no throne (or seat) in Zec. 14.

Why would one expect there to be a throne mentioned there?

Then what are you doing here discussing this op? This op asserts the premise the "judgment seat" or "seat of judgment" is moved. The op says it is moved twice, once to the air, and then again to the earth.

The op further says the judgment begins when the seat is moved to the air.

i don't see that in the OP. Are you reading into it?

I think he's played a little fast and loose with this "judgment seat" because he's also broken judgment down into multiple judgments of multiple types, beginning with a "judgment of works," followed by a judgment of the nations. The op also discriminates between wheat and weeds, sheep and goats. Apparently, there are four types of people, not two. Apparently, there are multiple judgments of multiple types and none of it concerns the judgment(s) already accomplished (as I have shown scripture to plainly , explicitly reported.

Most importantly, however, there's not a single verse in the Bible that ever actually explicitly states the judgment seat is physically on earth.

Does it matter where the judgement seat is?

The seat itself has been inferred through the assumptions various judgments of various types of people occur at different times in different locales. In other words, the op seems to be a fairly simple one-note position but when closely examined it is actually asserting a variety of underlying premises and it has not bothered to show any of them exist in scripture - scripture that is plainly read as written and properly exegeted.

I completely agree. That makes it post-millennial, not pre-millennial! I mean small "p" post-, not Postmillennial, but post-millennial. Since the judgment of the judgment seat (or throne) takes place after the millennium the Dispensational-style, modern futurism asserted by this op is the outlier. Historicism, Amillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Idealism all agree on this point: the judgment occurs after the millennium, not before. These four end-times doctrines agree on other points, too - such as the raptured and judgment not being separated by a long period of time in between.

The rapture precedes the 1000, years reign by "7" years.

And I and curious why it is I am not reading any follow up on my examination of Zech 14. I was asked to show where the earthquake destroys Jerusalem and I provided that information.

All you did was make some sort of claim that an earthquake destroyed Jerusalem and that was Zech 14...I have already told you I disagree.
The Mt. of Olives hasn't split yet. I see no reason to even debate that point.

Why am I now hearing crickets chirping? I clearly disagree with our preterist brother so you can't throw me into the same bin and dismiss what Zec 14 says. If the text of Zechariah 14:4 and its surrounding words are read literally then the literal reading becomes unrealistic because the ensuing earthquake described by those words would literally destroy Jerusalem. What say you?

I'm not so sure the bible tells us Zech 14:4 tells us Jerusalem will be destroyed.
The rest of Zech seems to tell us Jerusalem will still be there.

 

[Mr GLee]

Who said there was?

Christians have prohecy (sola scriptura) till the end of time . o sign were given to wonder after (were why when ) it is natural unconverted mankind that must. They have no vison from prophecy as it is written.

 

[Josheb]

Why would one expect there to be a throne mentioned there?

Ugh!

I don't! The point is everything you and everyone else has posted about Zechariah 14 is OFF-TOPIC!!! This op is about the seat of judgment. There is no seat of judgment in Zec 14.

i don't see that in the OP. Are you reading into it?

Hmmm... Second to last sentence.

The judgment of works by the Son will begin from His seat in the air, to separate.............​

Jesus has got a seat in the air .

And you did not catch it..... and you've been posting anyway, unawares..... even though that point has been made more than once. A simple Cntrl F search for "air" would have near-instantly answered the question before it was posted.

Does it matter where the judgement seat is?

It does to @Ghana and the coming of the seat to earth is the topic of this discussion. You either genuinely wonder whether the plainly stated title of the op matters sufficiently enough to ask me that question or you're being disingenuous. Either way, I'm not trading posts with that guy/ Add on the irrelevance of Zechariah 14 and the nonsensical failure to understand the point being made about Zec 14, and that's enough for me. Thank you for your time. I won't be wasting any more time exchanging posts with you in this thread until these problems are made right.

I'd was kinda looking forward to entertaining the digression of your lack of surety, but the nonsense of Post 55 and the irrelevance of the passage decides the matter. You're a big Zec 14:4 guy so this will come up elsewhere. In the interim study the WHOLE chapter and not just that one verse. I provided a basic exegesis and practical, real-world examination of a literal reading (and I think you and I have traded posts on that subject before). I shouldn't have to repeat any of it.

 

[Josheb]

Christians have prohecy (sola scriptura) till the end of time.

And I care.... why?

I do not base my doctrines on what other say, and neither should you.

o sign were given to wonder after (were why when ) it is natural unconverted mankind that must. They have no vison from prophecy as it is written.

Let me make sure I understand this correctly. For some reason it is relevant that signs were given, but in this particular instance there are no signs to wonder after and Christians have "prohecy (sola scriptura) till the end of time," but no one here has said anything about signs being given but you.



Have you got anything to contribute to the move of the judgment seat from heaven to earth relevant to this op?

 

[Ghada]

Not only have the rules of sound exegesis been long held and well established,

Scripture says to study and rightly divide the word of truth and doctrine of Christ.

Only the lazy or the unbelievers demand every part of doctrine be expressly stated. Such as "Jesus Christ is God the Son."

Or, "The LORD shall stand upon the earth to govern upon the earth", or "Jesus Christ is that Lord that shall govern standing upon the earth".

There's no scripture stating he is on earth, either.

The prophecy is already given that He shall govern upon the earth. And, shall be seen standing upon the earth. It's either believed as written or not.

Furthermore, if the white horse is the seat of judgment than all other mentions of any seat of judgment should be understood as the white horse.

True.

You have got to explain your claims in a manner that reconciles with the whole of scripture

It's called study to rightly divide.

and withstands the critical examination of everyone participating in this thread.

Not those that demand every part of the study be expressly stated in one Scripture or another.

Demanding everything in the doctrine of Christ be expressly stated, is not study but only reading. And there would need be libraries of books to read them all, not only one complete book of Christ to read, study, and rightly discern the truth.

This particular demand and response is repeated enough.

Then tell yourself because this op asserts verses that later scripture tells us have already been fulfilled.

If this present evil world that lieth in wickedness, is the fulfillment of Christ and His people governing upon the earth, then it's certainly not the Lord Jesus Christ but another, and his people are not the righteous, but the unrighteous.

Mark 13:22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

If this world is the best governing you can do from above, then who needs the prince and power of the air...

The New Testament (as has already been posted) tells us the world (and Satan) has all already been judged.

But not locked up and overthrown, with the Lord Jesus Christ and His resurrected righteous saints ruling upon the earth, over every city and nation.

So why move the seat of judgment, why move the horse, if everything's been judged?

To execute His judgment from the air upon His people first, and then upon the earth upon all nations for athousand years.

Notice also, there are only three occasions were judgment is mentioned in Revelation 20 and only one of them has anything to do with the millennium and that verse never states the seat of judgment has been moved.

Psa 96:13Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

Psa 67:4O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

Joe 3:16The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Demands for all prophecy to be contained in only one part of the Bible, is the same as demanding all points of propohecy and doctrine be expressly written: By the lazy or unbelieving

Study is commanded by God for His people to learn all things in Scripture, not just read it expressly written, nor read it all in one place.

Both of these instuctions have been repeated enough.

Yes, and people who add to the book of Revelation are evil doers.

And take away.

So focus. Start by defining the seat of judgment and doing so with scripture.

Already done in the beginning, without anyone showing in error in the argument made from the Scriptures given.

Alternative teachings aren't corrections of an argument, but only alternatives.

 

[Ghada]

No. I have stated here and numerous other threads we ALL expect Jesus to return again.

Then the last days until His return are not ended.

Since I do not, the rest of that post is a waste of time and space.

Except of course for the proof that the last days continue, so long as antichrists continue coming before the Lord returns.

You've offered a two-possibility definition of the "seat," and contradicted yourself using "literally" and "representative," to describe the same seat.

Or, not and.

An obvious tactic to try and undermine an argument, is to change it into something obviously false.

Can you do just those two things before posting anything else? Define your terms, provide evidential proof from scripture, and explain the inference only approach. Take your time because I gotta go (but I'll check back later).

Already done and repeated enough.