The judgment seat of Christ comes with Him to earth

[Ghada]

Jesus's flesh and blood has long retuned to the dust from where his body of death came from.

1Co 15:14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1Co 15:1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Unbelief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, is unbelief in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I don't mind disagreements among professed believers about Scripture, which can be productive and helpful, but Scripture makes it clear not to bother arguing with proven unbelievers.

Tit 3:10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

I'll not be doing so along these lines anymore.

 

[Ghada]

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

The ends of the ages had come. Not the beginnings, but their ends.

Have come, not had come. The end of the ages are still coming with the doctrine of Christ pertaining to these last days, until He comes again to end these ages, and the antichrists coming with them.

You believe the last days persist and endure for two millennia (or more) but have no scripture actually stating that, either.

Which last days and end of ages have still come, so long as the Lord has not come again, so that antichrists are still coming before.

During His millennial governing upon the earth, the last days and end of ages will have come and ended.

You believe these things because you subscribe to a doctrine.

All Scripture is divided according to doctrine, because all Scripture is doctrine. Whether anyone teaches the doctrine of Jesus Christ, is proven by all Scripture being believed as written, and divided without contradiction.

The doctrine of the last days and end of ages have still come, is proven by anctichrists still coming with them.

The doctrine of the last days and end of ages have ended and had come, is proven false by changing the Scripture from have, to had.

It's easy to see Scripture rightly divided, and to see Scripture wrongly changed.

What is the name of this doctrine? Is it Dispensational Premillennialism?

Doctrine of Christ according to the Scriptures.

 

[Mr GLee]

1Co 15:14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1Co 15:1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Unbelief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, is unbelief in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I don't mind disagreements among professed believers about Scripture, which can be productive and helpful, but Scripture makes it clear not to bother arguing with proven unbelievers.

Tit 3:10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

I'll not be doing so along these lines anymore.

Sorry no offence meant .

When it comes to the unseen eternal things of God . We defend that which defends us .

There can be differences in private interpretation (personal commentaries) as long as they do not do despite the fullness of Grace the whole wage of sin, Which some sects do to show they are false prophets false apostles .

I would offer as it seems you are still making Christ the anointing or teaching eternal God into the Son of man, Jesus dying mankind .

The Son of man Jesus was empowered by the invisible father Christ).

Jesus ate the kind of food the apostles knew not of . The daily bread of the loving word. The hidden manna spoken of. . the spiritual food to both give sons of God (Christian) the unseen gospel understanding and empower dying mankind to do it to his good pleasure.

John 4:33-35King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work................. ( of His faith or called labor of love )

Do you have the Spirit of Christ? Its a matter of belief (faith) .

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Remember its the milk of the word as it is written that teaches us God is merciful and gracious . We never outgrow that need. It builds strong bones of faith LOL. . . Got Milk?

1 Peter 2:1-3King James Version2 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.


2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith;( Christ's) prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Christ is our confidence He promised us(Philippian 1:6) if he has begun the good teaching work in us he will continue to the last day slow down he aced the open book test .Take it from a slower learner .

 

[CrowCross]

Ugh!

I don't! The point is everything you and everyone else has posted about Zechariah 14 is OFF-TOPIC!!! This op is about the seat of judgment. There is no seat of judgment in Zec 14.

Hmmm... Second to last sentence.

The judgment of works by the Son will begin from His seat in the air, to separate.............​

Jesus has got a seat in the air .

And you did not catch it..... and you've been posting anyway, unawares..... even though that point has been made more than once. A simple Cntrl F search for "air" would have near-instantly answered the question before it was posted.

It does to @Ghana and the coming of the seat to earth is the topic of this discussion. You either genuinely wonder whether the plainly stated title of the op matters sufficiently enough to ask me that question or you're being disingenuous. Either way, I'm not trading posts with that guy/ Add on the irrelevance of Zechariah 14 and the nonsensical failure to understand the point being made about Zec 14, and that's enough for me. Thank you for your time. I won't be wasting any more time exchanging posts with you in this thread until these problems are made right.

I'd was kinda looking forward to entertaining the digression of your lack of surety, but the nonsense of Post 55 and the irrelevance of the passage decides the matter. You're a big Zec 14:4 guy so this will come up elsewhere. In the interim study the WHOLE chapter and not just that one verse. I provided a basic exegesis and practical, real-world examination of a literal reading (and I think you and I have traded posts on that subject before). I shouldn't have to repeat any of it.

Zec 14:4 was brought up to show Jesus hasn't returned yet.

I think we're getting post mixed up and confused. As far as repeating....after replying to several posters on this forum sometimes it's easy to forget what one poster said....especially when a poster presents a lengthy post.
I try to keep my post as short and to the point as possible....sometimes the post have "sidebars". Zec 14:4 would be one of them which was used to support a view.

Will the White Throne physically be on earth? I never looked at it. I kinda went into it with a no, but the more I look it seems as if it may be on earth.

It seems as if there are more than one throne.

 

[Mr GLee]

Zec 14:4 was brought up to show Jesus hasn't returned yet.

I think we're getting post mixed up and confused. As far as repeating....after replying to several posters on this forum sometimes it's easy to forget what one poster said....especially when a poster presents a lengthy post.
I try to keep my post as short and to the point as possible....sometimes the post have "sidebars". Zec 14:4 would be one of them which was used to support a view.

Will the White Throne physically be on earth? I never looked at it. I kinda went into it with a no, but the more I look it seems as if it may be on earth.

It seems as if there are more than one throne.

Its the goal of the father of lies to deceive dying mankind to believe that God is a Jewish man as King of kings. Why promote it? What the hope?

Words have meaning change the meaning change the author (Christ )intent .Therefore violating the loving commandment not to change the meaning of one word it can change all the commandments

Deuteronomy 4King James Version2 Ye shall not add unto the word(singular) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it,(singular) that ye may keep the commandments( all commandments) of the Lord your God which I command you.

Two savior working as one. One son of man Jesus seen empowered by the eternal father not seen

Two is the one word that shows God not seen has spoken The old reliable law of faith . . . . #1 Let there be and #2 it was God alone good

The Son of man Jesus demonstrating the power of the Father .

Jesus (Savior) the Son of man dying mankind or Jesus (savior) The Spirit of Christ the anointing Holy Spirit that empowered the Son of man to both hear the Fathers good will will and do it to the good pleasure of Christ the Holy Father. . the one invisible head

Christ the anointing teaching Spirit of the Father. The one good master as Lord of lords . Some desired to venerate the dying flesh of Jesus . Jesu was given words from the father jesu the apostle declared one is our good master in heaven not seen

Mark 10:16-17 King James Version there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

 

[Josheb]

Scripture says to study and rightly divide the word of truth and doctrine of Christ.

Correct.

And you have not....

• Defined the terms as scripture does,
• Acknowledged OR applied the many places the NT states the judgment(s) has already been rendered...
• Refrained from adding to or subtracting from the word of God...
• Failed to provide a single verse explicitly stating the seat is physically on earth.

The whole point is the op fails to abide by the standard just posted! There's absolutely nothing "rightly dividing the word of truth in the op.

Only the lazy or the unbelievers demand every part of doctrine be expressly stated.

Red herring.

Such as "Jesus Christ is God the Son."

False equivalence.

The prophecy is already given that He shall govern upon the earth.

And according to verses such as (but not limited to), Psalm 22:28, Psalm 47:8, Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:21 and 3:10, Colossians 2:10 and 15, 1 Timothy 6:15, that has already been accomplished. The name written on his robe BEFORE anything stated in the op occurs is "King of Kings and Lord of Lords"! It is against the King of all kings and Lord of all lords that wars are waged! To the degree the Messiah is inherently about his kingship and the gospel is about his rule, those who deny his power and authority and inextricably denying Christ and the gospel.

It is NOT rightly dividing the word of truth.

And, shall be seen standing upon the earth.

Got scripture explicitly stating that?

It's either believed as written or not.

That's correct, and you believe something NOT actually stated in the word of truth and deny what is plainly, explicitly, openly, directly stated. One of the fundamental differences here is that this op is built entirely on an inferential reading of scripture that interprets individual verses based on a pre-existing end-times doctrine whereas I can provide a PILE of scripture that explicitly states things problematic and contrary to the op....... which are then ignored in favor of red herrings and false equivalences....... despite the fact much of what I have posted is agreed with .

• The judgments have already been rendered.
• The throne of judgment is in heaven, and it does not come down to earth until Rev. 21-22, NOT Rev. 19-20.
• Jesus is NOW King and Lord, with ALL the power and authority to rule and judge all of creation (not just earth).
• There is no other power or authority above his.
• Scripture never states Jesus is on earth until Rev. 21-22.

This op does NOT rightly divide the word of truth, and rather than engage and discuss the points just made the following is throught to be a rational, scriptural response,

Only the lazy or the unbelievers demand every part of doctrine be expressly stated....

When it is neither.

It's called study to rightly divide.

Which this op fails to do.

Not those that demand every part of the study be expressly stated in one Scripture or another.

How about just one or two parts?

If this present evil world that lieth in wickedness, is the fulfillment of Christ and His people governing upon the earth, then it's certainly not the Lord Jesus Christ but another, and his people are not the righteous, but the unrighteous.

That is a hugely erroneous failure to correctly understand the sovereignty of God and the role what persist plays in His plan. The existence of evil does not preclude Christ's power or authority. Thinking that is the case is a false dichotomy. The idea that wickedness is the fulfillment is a straw man. No one has even remotely suggested such a thing.

These are simply more examples of NOT rightly dividing the word of truth...... while insinuating others don't do so. It's blatant gaslighting.

Mark 13:22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

If this world is the best governing you can do from above, then who needs the prince and power of the air...

Again, no one has said this is the "best," but it is an attack on the will of God inescapably calling into question the veracity and efficacy of God's rule because of temporal human perception of the things only partly seen and understood. It borders on idolatry (the notion you know better than God is idolatrous).

If evil still persist, then it because God wants it to do so and it serves His purpose and only His purpose.

But not locked up and overthrown...

Again, Isaiah, Jude, the many verses stating the devil is defeated show the devil is locked up and overthrown. He was never a free agent to begin with.

Already done in the beginning, without anyone showing in error in the argument made from the Scriptures given.

ROTFLMBO!!!

Multiple errors in this op have been exposed! You just haven't acknowledged, engaged, discussed, or corrected any of them.

There is only one God. That God is ALL mighty. That means ALL the talk of "war" in the Bible exists in that inescapable context. That is the absolutely necessary understanding. It is axiomatic. It is undeniable. No "war" ever existed but that which God in His divine wisdom permitted. No "war" lasts a fraction of a nanosecond longer than God permits it to endure. The Creator God who spoke the world into existence can speak it ALL out of existence. He can speak, you, me, @Mr GLee, @CrowCross, @Arial, @3 Resurrections, the devil, and every single demon out of existence anytime He so chooses AND He can do that so egregiously that there be no record, no memory, of us ever existing.

It's like spitting chewed up pieces of paper through a straw at ground zero to stop a nuclear explosion.

That is the fundamental truth upon which the word of truth is revealed and this op miserably fails to take that into account. There has never been a single place or time in ALL creation in which God has not ruled almightily.

Alternative teachings aren't corrections of an argument, but only alternatives.

Which is why there is so much dissent with this op. It is an alternative teaching, one that does not rightly divide the word of God, one that is NOT built on something explicitly stated in God's word of truth, but an alternative teaching invented less than two centuries ago through inference-only eisegesis that blatantly denies and ignores what is explicitly stated in God's word of truth: The seat of judgment is in heaven and it does not come to earth until Revelation 21-22, which is long after Revelation 19-20.


Bad op.

 

[Josheb]

Already done and repeated enough.

Not using scripture's definitions.

You've got the seat of judgment being a white horse. Scripture never says that. Scripture states the seat of judgment is something else and there's not a single post in this thread bearing your handle that has it correct.

 

[Josheb]

Have come, not had come. The end of the ages are still coming with the doctrine of Christ pertaining to these last days, until He comes again to end these ages, and the antichrists coming with them.

What basis have you for claiming and end of something lasts more than two millennia? Show me the scripture.

All Scripture is divided according to doctrine, because all Scripture is doctrine. Whether anyone teaches the doctrine of Jesus Christ, is proven by all Scripture being believed as written, and divided without contradiction.

This op has no scripture and denies the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Jesus is NOW the King! Jesus is NOW the judge. Jesus is NOW King , Lord, and Judge over everything, including the earth and there is neither need nor scripture stating he moves his seat of judgment until AFTER Rev. 19 and 20.

The doctrine of the last days and end of ages have still come, is proven by anctichrists still coming with them.

Now, the doctrine of last days is that the first century readers would see them. There's nothing about the 21st century in John's writings. This is simply another example of failing to rightly render the word of truth.

The doctrine of the last days and end of ages have ended and had come, is proven false by changing the Scripture from have, to had.

No, it is scripture.

Scripture plainly states the last days occurred during the NT era. Paul explicitly stated the ends of the ages HAD come (have come for the original readers, not those living two millennia later). ANYONE with a Bible can objectively point to those texts but there's not a single person on the planet who can point to anything in scripture reporting either condition exists today. It's you adding to the scripture, not me. I do not assume something not written. You do.

And you deny doing so.

It's easy to see Scripture rightly divided, and to see Scripture wrongly changed.

I completely agree. This op wrongly changes scripture.

Doctrine of Christ according to the Scriptures.

The doctrine of Christ is that he is NOW King of Kings and Lord of Lord, High Priest, and Judge of all, the judgment has already been rendered, and he won't be coming down until Revelation 21-22.

This op has it wrong. This op does NOT rightly divide the word oof God. It cannot provide a single verse in which Jesus is explicitly stated to physically be on earth prior to Revelation 21 and it avoids the matter with red herrings instead of openly and honestly acknowledging the truth of the word of truth. Scripture repeatedly states the world has been judged, individually and collectively and the devil and his cohort defeated. This op is silent on that truth of the word of truth! God is ALWAYS AND EVERYWHERE sovereign and almighty and the entire op asserts a position utterly, profoundly, egregiously contradictory to that reality in favor of red herrings, false equivalences, false causes, false dichotomies, and straw men. There is nothing rightly dividing about logical fallacy.

And this has ALWAYS been a problem with modern futurism.

 

[Josheb]

Zec 14:4 was brought up to show Jesus hasn't returned yet.

Then that is an easily addressed and resolved point that, having been asserted, can now be acknowledged so the discussion of this op can move forward.

I think we're getting post mixed up and confused.

Speak for yourself, please.

I, CrowCross, may be getting posts mixed up and confused because of the differences, @Ghada, @Josheb. @3 Resurrections, and myself have posted.​

I, Josheb, understand there are two partial-prets here with differing views. I under understand there are two different premils here with differing views. I'm not confusing any of them. I understand this op is about the purported move of the judgment seat to the air, and then two earth and NOT about whether or not Jesus has returned yet.

As far as repeating....after replying to several posters on this forum sometimes it's easy to forget what one poster said....

Yes, it is, and I am sympathetic and empathetic to that condition because anyone, including myself can fall prey to that problem.

especially when a poster presents a lengthy post.

I do hope that's not an attempt at gaslighting. Lengthy posts do no cause confusion. They may evidence confusion in its author, but they don't cause confusion in others.

I try to keep my post as short and to the point as possible....

I do not care.

You also make scripture say things it doesn't state. That is op-relevant, but I work hard at keeping the posts about the posts, not the posters. Zechariah 14:4 does NOT say Jesus has come or not come. It's an Old Testament prophecy that had not occurred at the time of its writing AND IT SAYS ABSOULTELY NOTHING ABOUT THE JUDGMENT SEAT, so it has no place in this op. If someone else brought up the premise Jesus has already returned then that's bait, and the best response is silence. Don't feed trolls. Only an explicit statement stating the seat is coming to earth or not coming to earth, or when it does or doesn't come is relevant.

That is not difficult to understand. It's fairly axiomatic and avoids any confusion .

 

[Josheb]

Will the White Throne physically be on earth? I never looked at it. I kinda went into it with a no, but the more I look it seems as if it may be on earth. It seems as if there are more than one throne.

Make the case.

Make the case... op-relevantly. Start with what is explicitly stated and build from there. If there's no such explicit statement then acknowledge that fact, and explain how and why the inference-only case of necessary implications is the only acceptable case, the one to which we should subscribe as the rightly divided word of truth.

The op can't do that (he's had three pages to do so). He won't even try. Keep in mind: if your existing posts are any indication then your position is going to be different in some ways than this op and he's going to do with your posts what he's done with others'. Keep in mind: I will ask the same sort of questions I ask in nearly every thread, but I will do so in an attempt to build consensus between us with what is explicitly stated in God's word and what can exegetically be inferred based on those statements, and I'll endeavor to speak for myself and keep the posts about the posts, not the posters. There are multiple problems with premillennialism and they've always existed. This is especially the case with the Dispensational (or modern futurist or Zionist) iteration of premillennialism. It is, therefore, always the onus of the premillennialist asserting his/her premillennialism to asset it and defend it so that it withstands critical examination (critical examination, not wanton criticism).

So look at it.


Is the White Throne physically one earth?

Revelation 20:7-15
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The white throne is definitely a post-thousand-year event. The passage explicitly states, "When the thousand years were completed..." There's not a single word in the passage reporting where the throne is; not a single word stating its location, not a single word saying whether it is in heaven or on earth. However, the events occurring at the white throne's judgment include the tossing in of Satan, all those whose names are not in the book of life, and death itself. The second death occurs here, not prior to the millennium, not at the premillennial separated rapture. So, we ask ourselves, "Does the second death occur on earth, or in heaven?" Since the event also entails Hades giving up its dead, we know this is not living people still living on earth because any such person hasn't reached the point of Hebrews 9:27.

Now I could elaborate a LOT further were I to use the whole of scripture (and make the post lengthy, but I know how little that's appreciated ). Do you see what I just did? I started with what is explicitly stated, and then worked through what can be exegetically inferred.... based on what is explicitly stated. I did NOT make the text say things it cannot be made to say if we stick to what is plainly stated exactly as written.

That's important because the passage quoted above did NOT have chapter and verse numbers when it was originally written and what comes immediately after verse 15 is....

Revelation 21:1-4
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

That pesky little word, "Then...." necessarily implies some sort of sequence. Immediately after the thousand years were completed, there's this judgment in which a second death occurs and Satan, death, and all those whose names are not written in the book of life get tossed into a fiery lake, and then the new heaven and earth are seen "coming down out of heaven." It is all, again, post-thousand-years. According to this passage, after the holy city comes down out of heaven, declarations come from the throne: the tabernacle of God is among men, and all things are made new. Those are the only four mentions of the words, "throne" or "seat" found in Rev. 20 and 21.

If we continue reading we find...

Revelation 22:1-5
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bondservants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

Those are the only two remaining mentions of "throne" or "seat" in Revelation. This passage explicitly states the throne is in the descended city. In contrast to the above..... there isn't a single verse in the entire book of Revelation explicitly stating the throne is physically on earth prior to the above .

• What does scripture state?
• Based on what is stated, what can exegetically be inferred?
• Or do we infer things from silence based on pre-existing doctrines that ignore what is explicitly stated?

Your turn

Will the White Throne physically be on earth?

Make the case for what you believe if it is any different than what I have just posted.

 

[CrowCross]

Its the goal of the father of lies to deceive dying mankind to believe that God is a Jewish man as King of kings. Why promote it? What the hope?

The goal of the father of lies would be to convince people like you that John got John 1:1 wrong where He informs us the Word that was God became flesh. Became a Jewish man.

It looks like the father of lies had his way with you. It took very little to convince you Jesus isn't God.

 

[Mr GLee]

The goal of the father of lies would be to convince people like you that John got John 1:1 wrong where He informs us the Word that was God became flesh. Became a Jewish man.

It looks like the father of lies had his way with you. It took very little to convince you Jesus isn't God.

Hi thanks for the reply . God is not a man as us.

Why call on the wrath of supernatural God who is not a creation but is the Faithful Creator our Holy Father .?

The " Let there be" and it seen with the eye was good. The law of faith . . . believe

Invisible = not seen

Visible = seen

Romans 1:18-25 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God (invisible) , they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man(Jesus the Son of man ) , and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature (Son of man, Jesus) more than the Creator(Father) , who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[CrowCross]

Hi thanks for the reply . God is not a man as us.

Well yes and no. God is a trinity. God the Father, God the Son (Word who is God that became flesh) and God the Holy Spirit.
The persons of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are not a man...But, Jesus who is God in the flesh is.

There's no salvation in a mere man that died on the cross. How does a mere man pay for eternal sin?

 

[Ghada]

You've got the seat of judgment being a white horse.

Possibly. Since His seat from which He judges and makes war flies out of heaven to earth, and is white, and is called a white horse...

Many great commanders judged and made war seated upon their beloeved war-horses, such as Bucephalos and Traveler. Even Trigger. And he was also white.

I'm not saying it's Pegasus. Nothing is said about having wings. Not with angels flying through mid-heaven.

Scripture never says that.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

It's the judgment seat of Christ. He sits thereon when He comes to judge His people, and all nations of the earth. His seat of judgment and government has the same power and authority of the great throne in heaven, which is white.

God commands us to study His word to prove His doctrine and prophecy of Scripture. Sometimes it's as easy as taking 2 plus 2 and getting a sensible 4.

Jesus Christ can sit on whatever seat to judge and make war on that He wishes to.

Gen 18:14Is any thing too hard for the LORD?

Scripture states the seat of judgment is something else

Normally we give Scripture when saying Scripture says...

Anyway, nothing is said specifically about His judgment seat, other than we shall all appear and stand before His seat to give account of our deeds, to be accepted or not accepted by Him.

and there's not a single post in this thread bearing your handle that has it correct.

 

[Ghada]

The name written on his robe BEFORE anything stated in the op occurs is "King of Kings and Lord of Lords"! It is against the King of all kings and Lord of all lords that wars are waged!

If you mean all wars of man on earth today are waged against the Lord, then I disagree.

There are plenty of wars waged between evil and evil.

In any case, all such warfare on earth will cease after the Lord destroys the armies gathered against Him around Armageddon. At least for a thousand years anyway.

• The throne of judgment is in heaven, and it does not come down to earth until Rev. 21-22,

True. With New Jersualem the throne of God and the Lamb will come down upon a great and high mountain of the new earth, after the old heaven and earth are passed away.

• Jesus is NOW King and Lord, with ALL the power and authority to rule and judge all of creation (not just earth).

He always has been. He just wasn't called the Son Jesus, until He came down from heaven to earth in the flesh. At which time He laid down all His power to execute judgment upon others on earth.

Although, by the Spirit He did execute judgment upon devils on earth.

• 
  
• Scripture never states Jesus is on earth until Rev. 21-22.

He was on earth when He came in the flesh. He was on earth for 40 days with His resurrected flesh and bones. He was on earth at Patmos long enough to give His revelation to John.

When he comes again to earth, seated upon His white horse of judgment shining as lightning through the air, He will be upon the earth to govern all nations.

More impressive than Trigger and Pegasus together.

Nor do I reading anything about the Lord of Lords dismounting His seat of judgment. Nor anything about how His judgment seat appears, other than as a flying white horse out of heaven.

The existence of evil does not preclude Christ's power or authority.

True. It's only some existence of a people of a Christ reigning from heaven and governing all this wicked world, that speaks more of an unrighteous christ and reign of false gods.

Bad gods to boot.

Again, no one has said this is the "best,"

True. It's the worst. At least according to the Scriptures.

Jesus' governing over all nations upon the earth, with all His first resurrected saints from that of righteous Abel, will certainly be the best ever on this earth. For a thousand years.

And even greater will be His reign on the new earth forever, when God and the Lamb dwells with men. And there is no more death, nor sea, as on this earth.

If evil still persist, then it because God wants it to do so and it serves His purpose and only His purpose.

Scripture would say allows it, not wants it.

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Again, Isaiah, Jude, the many verses stating the devil is defeated show the devil is locked up and overthrown.

Not while being prince and power of the air, and walking about as a roaring lion.

He's not yet chained and cast into hell, nor will that chain be a leash.

Which is why there is so much dissent with this op. It is an alternative teaching,

It certainly is. It does away with the delusion that believers' works will not be judged righteously by the Lord, without respect of persons.

Rom 3:5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

There are believers who want to think that their unrighteousness is commended, while that of the world is condemned. They also preach that because of their faith, God would be unrighteous to take vengeance upon their unrighteousness, like He will with the world.

But, knowing the terror of the Lord, we know that He will judge between the works of the righteous and the unrighteous, and will begin with His people standing at His judgment seat.

How can the righteous Judge of all the earth, possibly acquit the bad deeds of His people, and then condemn those of the world? God forbid.

The Lord God and Father is not an unrighteous judge commending His favorites, while taking vengeance on strangers that do the same bad things.

1 Peter{1:14} As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

I've yet to hear from believers saying their own urnighteous works will not be condemned, that even acknowledge the warnings of God judgment of our works, much less address it. Or even try to change His judgment into something more respecting of their faith.

an alternative teaching invented less than two centuries ago

So far as I know, it's only been for a month or two, before I proved it enough by Scripture to post it here.

Bad op.

What did op do? Poop on the rug? Or, is that the sheriff's son Opie? He was a pretty good kid, wasn't he?

 

[Josheb]

Possibly.

No, not "possibly." You said it. I asked about it and you confirmed it again. Do not now dismiss or minimize what was posted with also including a statement of possible error.

Since His seat from which He judges and makes war flies out of heaven to earth, and is white, and is called a white horse...

Jesus is definitely said to make war while riding a white horse, and war is often used as a tool of judgment throughout scripture, BUT.... Nowhere does the text state the white horse is the seat of judgment, and nowhere does the text state the white horse ever leaves heaven and comes to earth. Furthermore, in the white horse episode of Revelation 19 Jesus is already the King of Kings. Not only is Jesus already King of all kings to whom all the power and authority has been given, whose name is far above all other rule, but this supposed white horse war judgment cannot be made to conflict with the fact the world has already been judged and the white throne judgment comes after the millennium.

I have broached ALL of this in earlier posts, and you haven't touched any of it.

Many great commanders judged and made war seated upon their beloeved war-horses, such as Bucephalos and Traveler. Even Trigger. And he was also white. I'm not saying it's Pegasus. Nothing is said about having wings. Not with angels flying through mid-heaven.

You're not saying anything of scriptural integrity, intellectual validity, or topical relevance. What you're doing is making up stuff to justify the very real multiple problems in this op.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

It's the judgment seat of Christ. He sits thereon when He comes to judge His people, and all nations of the earth. His seat of judgment and government has the same power and authority of the great throne in heaven, which is white.

God commands us to study His word to prove His doctrine and prophecy of Scripture. Sometimes it's as easy as taking 2 plus 2 and getting a sensible 4.

Jesus Christ can sit on whatever seat to judge and make war on that He wishes to.

Gen 18:14Is any thing too hard for the LORD?

Normally we give Scripture when saying Scripture says...

Anyway, nothing is said specifically about His judgment seat, other than we shall all appear and stand before His seat to give account of our deeds, to be accepted or not accepted by Him.

Irrelevant.

You are supposed to be defining the seat AND, most importantly, proving that seat moves twice, and proving that case in a manner that does not conflict with whole scripture.

And now you're backing away from the earlier claims the seat is a white horse and relying on...

Possibly.

We do not set sound doctrine on what may (or may not) be.

So muster yourself. Prove the op! Take whatever time is necessary but prove the op correct. Don't speculate. Well-reasoned inference built on what is explicitly stated is not speculation.

Consider something I posted earlier: Scripture and our doctrines speak of "Judgment Day," or a day of judgement, BUT scripture also tells us in blunt, decided, explicit words and repeated occasions the judgment has all been rendered. Therefore, when we speak of the day of judgment, what we're really, more accurately talking about is sentencing day, or the day on which the just recompense for sin, or an individual or groups actions (or inaction) is meted out.

In the case of the white horse war, the judgment has already been rendered and the just recompense - the sentence of that verdict - is being meted out.



This op has it wrong.


If you think otherwise, then make that case. Stop avoiding the concerns I and others have brought to bear on this op and address them. Address them in a well-exegeted, well-reasoned use of scripture that is convincing, not just persuasive. Make the case so impeccable that it withstands all critical examination.

There are too many holes and inconsistencies in this op and its supporting posts for the op to be correct. Fix them or change views.

 

[Josheb]

If you mean all wars of man on earth today are waged against the Lord, then I disagree.

I don't.

I meant exactly what I posted and posted exactly what I meant. There is not war AGAINST GOD that lasts one second longer than He permits.

That is axiomatic and anyone failing to grasp that fact is not going to correctly understand anything else written in God's word.

 

[Josheb]

True. With New Jersualem the throne of God and the Lamb will come down upon a great and high mountain of the new earth, after the old heaven and earth are passed away.

And Jesus does not physically come to earth before then. NOTHING in Revelation 19 or 20 explicitly states Jesus is physically on the earth. In fact, NOTHING in the first 20 chapters of Revelation ever explicitly states Jesus is physically on the earth BUT time and again and again the text actually does state repeatedly state Jesus (and the throne on which he sits) is in heaven.

He is not stated to come to earth until chapters 21 and 22, and you're not dealing with that fact.

 

[Josheb]

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

No mention of his being on earth. None.

What the passage DOES state when read as a whole is,

Revelation 19:11-19
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and he has a name written on Him which no one knows except himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it he may strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; and he treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, "King of Kings, and Lord of Lords." Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great." And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against him who sat on the horse and against his army.

The heavens were opened and John, looking into the heavens, saw Jesus on the white horse. The white horse is in heaven, not on the earth. Furthermore, Jesus, riding the white horse in heaven, is already King over all other kings. He does NOT need to come to earth to establish his kingship, kingdom, or reign. He's already doing all three in heaven. That is what the text reports. On top of those two facts, the kings of the earth assemble, but Jesus is NOT stated to be there! Jesus is still in heaven. No mention of his being on the earth, only and explicit report he is in heaven. What he commands from heaven has its effects on earth, and that is reported repeatedly throughout the book of Revelation all the way to chapter 21. It is only in chapters 21 and 22 that Jesus is explicitly stated to come to earth.

The book of Revelation warns its readers not to add to the book. Adding Jesus coming to earth before Revelation states he'll come is a curse-inducing addition that should be avoided.

 

[Josheb]

.

It's the judgment seat of Christ.

No, it's not.

At best, the white horse is the seat from which he metes out sentencing, not judgment. The judgment has already been rendered!!! That is the underlying reason for the war. God does not wage war without reason. God does not use war as a tool of judgment without cause. He appraises human conduct (in this case, opposition to his authority), judges it to be wrong AND worthy of necessary response on His part, and then he metes out the just recompense for their unrighteous, faithless, disobedient conduct.

He either left the Great White Throne of Judgment to ride a great white horse among his army in heaven..... or the white horse is simply a figure symbolizing the immutable throne of judgment that is with God always and everywhere. Jesus is never not Judge. Jesus is always and everywhere Judge. He, and he alone, can choose not to act in that role (as he did through much of his incarnation) but that does not change the fact his position, power, and authority as Judge is omnipresent.

Premillennialism has always failed to assert and eschatology consistent with that fact.