The judgment seat of Christ comes with Him to earth

[Ghada]

Like the provincial governor's seat for Caesar in Rome, and an American court annex for the Supreme Court in Washington D.C., Christ comes with His own judgment seat to hudge the earth. He will have from His seat all the power and right of the great white throne in heaven, to judge and execute the Father's law and will on earth, as in heaven.

Psa 96:13Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

The difference between imperial and national judgment seats of men, is that the Lord Christ's seat is moveable from heaven to earth, and there is no appeal to the Father from the Son's judgment.

Jhn 5:22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Every believer living in the Roman empire knew exactly what the judgment seat of the Son was on earth, coming down from the Father's white throne in heaven: The judgment of works throughout the empire, of everyone in the empire, in the stead of Caesar himself.

And even as in the Roman empire, that judgment began first with the Roman citizen, and then with all noncitizens and strangers. So the Lord's own judgment beginning with His people naming His name, and then with all inhabotiors of the earth.

Eze 9:6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

2 Peter{4:17} For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? {4:18} And if

Heb 10:30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

The judgment of works by the Son will begin from His seat in the air, to separate His wheat from unrighteous tares. He will then judge the nations from His seat in Jersualem, to separate the sheep from the goats.

 

[Josheb]

Like the provincial governor's seat for Caesar in Rome, and an American court annex for the Supreme Court in Washington D.C., Christ comes with His own judgment seat to hudge the earth. He will have from His seat all the power and right of the great white throne in heaven, to judge and execute the Father's law and will on earth, as in heaven.

Psa 96:13Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

The difference between imperial and national judgment seats of men, is that the Lord Christ's seat is moveable from heaven to earth, and there is no appeal to the Father from the Son's judgment.

Jhn 5:22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Every believer living in the Roman empire knew exactly what the judgment seat of the Son was on earth, coming down from the Father's white throne in heaven: The judgment of works throughout the empire, of everyone in the empire, in the stead of Caesar himself.

And even as in the Roman empire, that judgment began first with the Roman citizen, and then with all noncitizens and strangers. So the Lord's own judgment beginning with His people naming His name, and then with all inhabotiors of the earth.

Eze 9:6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

2 Peter{4:17} For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? {4:18} And if

Heb 10:30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

The judgment of works by the Son will begin from His seat in the air, to separate His wheat from unrighteous tares. He will then judge the nations from His seat in Jersualem, to separate the sheep from the goats.

That coming already happened.

John 12:31
Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

The word "now" means now. Ask why teachers ignore this verse.

John 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

John 9:39
Then Jesus declared, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind may see and those who see may become blind."

Ask why teachers forget, neglect, or ignore what the NT plainly states about the OT prophecies. Ask why they fail to correctly discriminate between the last days and the last day.

 

[Ghada]

That coming already happened.

Did you see Him coming in the air, or did someone pass on that mysterious legend to you personally?

No wonder fake news has such traction these days. There's a serious spirit of error going around...

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

I'm thinking stuff like this is why she's called mystery Babylon.

Ask why teachers forget, neglect, or ignore what the NT plainly states about the OT prophecies.

If anyone can't correctly get the manner of the Lord's second coming to earth, they certainly shouldn't be playing around with other prophecies not clearly so clear.

Ask why they fail to correctly discriminate between the last days and the last day.

The last days have been since the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the days of the apostles.

The last day of these last days will be when the Lord comes again, as lightning shine through the air, so that every eye on earth shall see Him coming.

No need for any news reports, much less of the fakey flakey sort.

And the argument is about His judgment seat judging between His righteous wheat and the unrighteous tares naming His name.

 

[CrowCross]

John 12:31
Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

The word "now" means now. Ask why teachers ignore this verse.

I don't think you understand this verse properly.

Peter in tells us in 1 Peter 5:8........Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Satans head so to speak was crushed at the cross....but Satan still prowls around.

 

[Josheb]

Did you see Him coming in the air, or did someone pass on that mysterious legend to you personally?

Are you capable of intelligent conversation or only foolishness?

The last days have been since the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the days of the apostles.

Got scripture stating that?

The last day of these last days...

There's no such thing.

...will be when the Lord comes again, as lightning shine through the air, so that every eye on earth shall see Him coming.

Which has nothing to do with the coming of Christ to judge the earth. I posted the scriptures stating that has happened and you are ignoring them.

And the argument is about His judgment seat judging between His righteous wheat and the unrighteous tares naming His name.

No, it is not. You are mixing different scriptures about different events together inappropriately.

No need for any news reports, much less of the fakey flakey sort.

Thank you for your time. I don't trade posts with trolls so either stow that dross or be ignored.

 

[Josheb]

I don't think you understand this verse properly.

Peter in tells us in 1 Peter 5:8........Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Satans head so to speak was crushed at the cross....but Satan still prowls around.

And I do not think you understand the verse correctly.

The word "now" means now, and Satan does not devour the righteous in Christ. That "prowler" prowls about with a crushed head and his prowling does not preclude the world having been judged. Satan has been judged. His prowling has been judged and his entire existence is subject to the Judge of Satan's judgement.

 

[CrowCross]

And I do not think you understand the verse correctly.

The word "now" means now, and Satan does not devour the righteous in Christ. That "prowler" prowls about with a crushed head and his prowling does not preclude the world having been judged. Satan has been judged. His prowling has been judged and his entire existence is subject to the Judge of Satan's judgement.

I understand...but Satan...actually his demons for the most part...can still effect Christians.

Fallen angels are still around with the exception of the Gen 6 angels and can effect ones walk.

 

[Josheb]

I understand...but Satan...actually his demons for the most part...can still effect Christians.

Having an effect is not a point in dispute. Nothing Satan or his minions do should ever be construed outside of the fact he has already been judged and God works all things for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. If God sees fit to unleash the full power of the sinfully dead and enslaved, head-crushed, defeated, scavenger, devil on you or me then He does so for good.

Fallen angels are still around with the exception of the Gen 6 angels and can effect ones walk.

Not a point in dispute. Those angels that are roaming the earth have been kept in eternal bonds of darkness until their day of judgment and no one should pit their defeated, sinfully dead and enslaved, head-crushed roaming against that fact. Satan has no power but that which his Creator gives him, and on the occasion any power is granted to him it occurs solely for the purposes of his Creator and exists only for as long as the Creator permits. Satan is not a free agent able to do whatever he likes whenever he likes to do it. His roaming the earth looking for those he may devour is a curse, not a blessing.

If the tradition about Satan once being the glorious archangel Lucifer is correct, then his roaming earth as a devourer of other sinners is NOT a good thing for him. It is a direct consequence of his judgment; his having been stripped of all his glory, cast out of heaven, held in bondage to both sin and his Creator..... still able to do only what his Creator permits and requires of him. He's way worse off than when he was first created.

Stinks to be that guy. Stinks even worse to have to live his miserable existence knowing his destiny ends in destruction.

Ephesians 6:16
....in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

Exactly what kind of enemy is it whose every "arrow" can be extinguished by the redeemed and regenerate human creature? Employing the shield of faith we extinguish ALL is flaming arrows.

ALL

The word "all" means all.

James 4:7
Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

What kind of enemy is it that flees when resisted? Don't dodge the question. Answer it and be specific. What kind of enemy does that? Is that an enemy for whom I should have any apprehension? I resist, he flees. I take up faith and defeat all his machinations.

Ephesians 2:1-2
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

I am no longer dead in trespass, nor do I walk according to the course of the world. The "prince of the power of the air" works in the disobedient, not those dead in Christ.

 

[Josheb]

I understand...but Satan...actually his demons for the most part...can still effect Christians.

Fallen angels are still around with the exception of the Gen 6 angels and can effect ones walk.

Let's not forget: this op is about the premise the judgment seat comes to earth. I have posted several verses plainly stating judgment has already come and no one here so far has said a word about any of them. If they mean what they actually state, then all the OT prophecies about the judgment of the world have been fulfilled and they should not be confused or conflated with the judgment of the last day. The lasts days are not the last day. Furthermore, nowhere in Revelation 19 (or 20) does the text actually state Jesus is physically on earth. His earthly presence in a physical chair "judgment seat" is non-existent in Revelation 19 (the text to which the op referred for support). The judgment and war of Rev. 19 occurring on earth and in the heavens are commanded from heaven, not earth. A simple Cntrl F search for the word "come" readily shows the ONLY mention of Jesus coming anywhere is at the wedding feast in heaven, NOT one earth waging war.

Many Christians are looking for a world judgment that has already happened. They are denying God's word and looking in faithlessness for something already accomplished and they do so ignoring the fact they'll be judged for it! It's not okay to deny God's word and tell God what He stated is not what He meant.

John 16:7-11
But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Did Jesus mean what he stated?

Acts 17:29-32
Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, "We shall hear you again concerning this."

John 3:18-19 NIV
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

The verdict has been rendered. It was rendered long before the gospel was preached throughout all creation. One of the chief reasons this gets confused is because the distinctions between judgment, condemnation, and sentencing are not well discriminated in our English translations. The world, and everyone in it, has ALL already been judged. Everyone who does not believe in the name of Jesus has ALL already been condemned. Scripture uses the phrase "day of judgment," but there are many days of judgment. The one day to dread is the day of sentencing, the day when the just recompense for sin is meted out. That day is lethally egregious for all not calling upon the name of God's one and only resurrected Son by whom alone there is salvation from the wrath of God due to sin.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Even if we emerge charred and covered in soot we will be saved.... as long as s/he's built on the foundation of Christ. There is NOW no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1). The world has been judged and the remaining day of sentencing is not something about which we need worry.

And if we acted like that was true this world would be a much different place. That failure will be something for which many will have to account, but being tested even with fire they will emerge saved if and only if they can rightly call on the name of Jesus.

Jesus is stated to come to earth in Revelation chapters 21-22, not 19-20. He is seated on his throne, a throne NOT stated to be on earth in 19 or 20.

Revelation 22:1-5
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

Whether read chronologically or recapitulationally, that comes after 19 and 20, not during, and not before. John 3, and 16, Acts 17, and a host of other scriptures tell us the world has already been judged, and judged in fulfillment of OT prophecy more than once. The last days (plural) have come and gone and what we await is the last day (singular).

The op is incorrect.

And rather than engage the substance of what others have brought to bear in this op we have to deal with dross like...

Did you see Him coming in the air, or did someone pass on that mysterious legend to you personally? No wonder fake news has such traction these days..........

That is nonsense that should be ignored in hopes of something more intelligent (and scriptural).
.

 

[Ghada]

Got scripture stating that?

Heb 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

2Pe 3:3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

From the beginning of the Lord's prophecy about His coming again through the air with every eye seeing Him, there have been lots of scoffers. Others just turn it into a spiritualized fable.

2Pe 1:16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

There's no such thing.

There is a last day of this heaven and earth at the end of this world. These last days certainly won't last forever.

Before that last day of this world, there will be the last day of these last days with the Lord coming again to the earth for all eyes to see.

Which has nothing to do with the coming of Christ to judge the earth.

It has everything to do with His judgment of wheat and tares from the air, and then sheep and goats from Jerusalem.

I posted the scriptures stating that has happened and you are ignoring them.

I didn't ignore them, but only responded to your mysterious reading of them.

No, it is not. You are mixing different scriptures about different events together inappropriately.

Since none of the argument has had any error show in it from the Scriptures given, then I'll just have to keep it as is.

Just disagreeing doesn't prove nor disprove anything. Including just promoting some other argument.

Thank you for your time. I don't trade posts with trolls

Not to be a stickler, but responding to people's personal posts to me, is not trolling. To me, it's simple courtesy.

so either stow that dross or be ignored.

I'll ignore the demand and keep the dross.

 

[Josheb]

Heb 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

2Pe 3:3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

From the beginning of the Lord's prophecy about His coming again through the air with every eye seeing Him, there have been lots of scoffers. Others just turn it into a spiritualized fable.

2Pe 1:16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

NONE of that states, "The last days have been since the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the days of the apostles," as was previously claimed in Post 5. You were not asked to prove the last days existed in the New Testament era. That word, "these" in Hebrews 1:2 indicates the last days existed when the author of Hebrews wrote that epistle.

James 5:3
Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!

The "you" in James 5:3 means the audience to whom he was writing. They were living in the last days. Not a single verse you quoted states anything about the last days lasting for multiple millennia.

You were asked to prove they persist two millennia later. You have failed to do that. Give it another try.

Have you got scripture proving the last days have been since the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the days of the apostles? If so then post that scripture. If not then simply state, "No, there is no scripture actually stating the last days persist all the way from back then up through today." Once the question asked is actually answered, we can then discuss that answer. We all know the last days existed in the NT era.

There is a last day of this heaven and earth at the end of this world. These last days certainly won't last forever.

You have not proven the latter. You claim it, but the claim is made absent any scripture stating that position. I understand MANY eschatological points of view say we live in the last days, that the last days began in the NT era and persist to today. I am not ignorant of that position.

They all assert that position without scripture ever stating that is the case.


And when asked to provide such a verse the average poster starts resorting to subterfuge (changing the subject, ad hominem, etc.) instead of simply acknowledging the facts of scripture.

I'll ignore the demand and keep the dross.

Thank you for your time.

 

[CrowCross]

Having an effect is not a point in dispute. Nothing Satan or his minions do should ever be construed outside of the fact he has already been judged

Judged...but not locked up.

 

[Josheb]

Judged...but not locked up.

I would say.... judged, bound but not locked up, and permitted to do only that which his Creator permits and empowers according to His will and purpose.



Now how does that relate to the subject of this op and its ensuing thread?

It means when Jesus comes to judge he is judging an already judged world inhabited by already judged individuals. So how often do you/we hear teachers teach that truth? Depends on the eschatology they espouse. Premillennialists (both historic and Dispensationalist) tend to imagine a future earthly judgment (sometimes meted out through a huge war), followed by a physical earthly reign..... followed again by another later judgment occurring much later in heaven. This is not always articulated but, since we have been talking about Satan, Satan is judged and then bound - kept from obstructing the gospel but not, as you put it, locked up, and that lasts for a millennium. Then he's let loose, a rebellion and another war of judgment ensues, the rebellion is defeated and then another judgment occurs, after which Satan and death are tossed into the fiery lake. In other words, a lot of judgment covering multiple episodes. The big distinction between the Historicist and the Dispensationalist is that the Historicist does not think Israel's is relevant so there's no two-group ecclesiology and there's no separated rapture. In Historicism rapture comes at the end, not before the millennium, not before the great tribulation where in Dispensationalism all the Christians are removed in a semi-return of Jesus where he comes but not all the way, he comes only in the air, leaves, and then comes back, leaves again after the millennium and then comes back again. Multiple comings and goings for Jesus in Dispensationalism, but only one coming to earth... except that there's another when the new Jerusalem comes down. The most important distinction between the two premillennial views is that most of Dispensationalism doesn't hold Jesus is fully enthroned, fully reigning, fully king. He's ruling from heaven, but not from earth and until he rules from earth his kingdom id not fully realized. It does not matter that the earthly rule fails and ends in rebellion once Satan is loosed from his millennial restraints; what's important is that Jesus physically returned and set up a physical place of authority from which he physically ruled. Instead of ruling heaven and earth from heaven, he rules heaven and earth from earth . Until the latter happens his reign and his kingdom is not fulfilled.

Amillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Idealism (and there is a lot of overlap among the three) agree with the Historicist on several points, the chief ones being there is only one ecclesia, Israel is not relevant to Christian eschatology, and the rapture is not separated from the "Second Coming" or final return of Christ. For these three Jesus is now reigning over all of creation from his eternal throne in heaven and there's no need for him to leave because, being God, he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent and therefore able to rule all of creation..... from anywhere and everywhere all at once. There is no need for a physical throne or physical presence on physical earth because for Jesus the physical and spiritual are not mutually exclusive conditions. Jesus could manifest a physical present here on earth at any time he so chose and he could do so in two different places at the same time (he's not limited by earthly physics). The world has already been judged and when we speak of "judgment day" what we more accurately mean is "sentencing day. Everyone's words and their conduct is examined (which could take an instant given the divine ability to show us our entire life measured by His righteousness in less time than it takes to snap His fingers) but for God the facts, the evidence, the proof is all already known. It's all already been judged and the verdict has already been rendered. Those in Christ - those already known to be in Christ - are separated from those who've failed to believe in God's Son. The former receive eternal life, the latter receive eternal rotting destruction...... without the need for Jesus to move his throne to earth or live there for a fixed period of time only to end up with a rebellion on his hands. The chief distinction among these three end-time views is that the gospel, through the will of God and empowerment by the Holy Spirit progresses over the course of human history to become the predominant point of view, BUT the amil holds this is mostly linear; the progress occurs gradually over time during a "millennium" that is not limited to a fixed number of years. The other two agree, but the postmil believes the gospel will one day be so successful that a world governed by the gospel is realized among the majority of the world and it is a glorious time of peace and prosperity. The Reconstructionists imagine an actual Christian state in which the world or at least some portion of it is governed by godly men rightly applying god's laws. The idealist does not see end-times prophecies as particularly predictive, or that the relevant history is particularly linear. Cycles occur and patterns repeat themselves simply as a course of the natura unfolding of time as God has planned or willed it, and history continues that way until God decides to wrap things up. There is plenty of diversity and overlap but they all see Jesus reigning over all creation now in a kingdom that has been inaugurated but not yet fully realized, and there won't be any physical presence of Jesus again until the last day when the just recompense for sin is meted out, the heavens and the earth are renewed, and the new city of peace descends from heaven.

All five perspectives agree that in the end there will no longer be any night; and we will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine us; and we will reign forever and ever over a renewed earth i which the heavenly city of peace is realized here on earth.

The fully full-preterist may (or may not) say this has all already happened and it's all allegorical. Any and all discussion of end times should be very short because all prophecy has been fulfilled. That view is an extreme outlier that should NEVER be confused or conflated with the varying degrees (small or large) of preterism ALL FIVE of the other views have. Every time a (Dispensationalist) premillennialist rails against preterism s/he looks foolish because s/he's ignored his own preterism, however meager it may be. If Jesus is the Messiah, then all the messianic prophecies of old have been fulfilled. That is preterist. To be a Christian is to be partially preterist. The degree to which other prophecies pertaining to end times are fulfilled varies even among premillennialists. Dispensational Premillennialist John MacArthur, for example, along with many others, believes the first three or four chapters of Revelation pertain to the first century. All of that content is already fulfilled. He and those like him are that much partially preterist, eschatologically.



This op asserts a move of the throne. The throne of judgment is an actual throne or at least a geographically localized throne of some kind of fixed physicality (notice the opening post does not define the term) that can and will be moved from one place to another. The judgment seat is not on earth, but it will be moved to earth. Before it moves from heaven, though, it will first be moved to "the air." Apparently, the seat leaves heaven, stops in the air for a while, and then moves again to Jerusalem. It is a particularly curious point of view, something unique to Dispensationalism (Historicism rejects that premise wholesale), odd because scripture repeatedly tells us,


Isaiah 66:1
This is what the LORD says: “Heaven is My throne and the earth is the footstool for My feet. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?

Acts 7:49 ESV
Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest?

But, apparently, there is a throne, a physical chair, within the throne one which Jesu sits and he's going to move that seat from the throne of heaven to the footstool of earth .

Why?

Well... I do not see anything in the op explaining the reason for the move. The throne is not defined, reasoning for its limited existence (both geographically and temporally) is absent, and there's no explanation for the two moves. ALL of this occurs in the larger context the world and all its constituents (including Satan and the other devils) have all already been judged... and the verdict rendered.


(apologies for the length, but some of this stuff, including weakness in the op, needed to be summarized in hopes they will be addressed)
.

 

[CrowCross]

I would say.... judged, bound but not locked up, and permitted to do only that which his Creator permits and empowers according to His will and purpose.

I agree.

Now how does that relate to the subject of this op and its ensuing thread?

It means when Jesus comes to judge he is judging an already judged world inhabited by already judged individuals. So how often do you/we hear teachers teach that truth?

I agree...18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Depends on the eschatology they espouse. Premillennialists (both historic and Dispensationalist) tend to imagine a future earthly judgment (sometimes meted out through a huge war), followed by a physical earthly reign..... followed again by another later judgment occurring much later in heaven. This is not always articulated but, since we have been talking about Satan, Satan is judged and then bound

This happens during te 1,000 year reign of Christ. Satan is let loose at the end of the 1,000 years.
Perhaps to show people even though satan has no influence people still sin having a sin nature.

- kept from obstructing the gospel but not, as you put it, locked up, and that lasts for a millennium. Then he's let loose, a rebellion and another war of judgment ensues, the rebellion is defeated and then another judgment occurs, after which Satan and death are tossed into the fiery lake. In other words, a lot of judgment covering multiple episodes.

Revelation presents it that way.

The big distinction between the Historicist and the Dispensationalist is that the Historicist does not think Israel's is relevant so there's no two-group ecclesiology and there's no separated rapture.

There I disagree. The tribulation or also called the time of Jacobs trouble is for bringing the Jews to Christ.

In Historicism rapture comes at the end, not before the millennium, not before the great tribulation where in Dispensationalism all the Christians are removed in a semi-return of Jesus where he comes but not all the way, he comes only in the air, leaves, and then comes back, leaves again after the millennium and then comes back again. Multiple comings and goings for Jesus in Dispensationalism, but only one coming to earth.

Jesus comes back twice...in the air at the resurection or rapture if you haven't died yet.
The second return is on a white horse where Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives and it splits.

.. except that there's another when the new Jerusalem comes down. The most important distinction between the two premillennial views is that most of Dispensationalism doesn't hold Jesus is fully enthroned, fully reigning, fully king. He's ruling from heaven, but not from earth and until he rules from earth his kingdom id not fully realized. It does not matter that the earthly rule fails and ends in rebellion once Satan is loosed from his millennial restraints; what's important is that Jesus physically returned and set up a physical place of authority from which he physically ruled. Instead of ruling heaven and earth from heaven, he rules heaven and earth from earth . Until the latter happens his reign and his kingdom is not fulfilled.

Adam...man...was given domnion of the earthand lost it to the offspring of the fallen angels offspring in Gen 6 as they had the DNA of humans mixed in them. The legal right was given to them when they married human women...a legal contract so to speak...
Jesus came as a man and because Jesus was a man He can reclaim the legal rights to the earth.

Amillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Idealism (and there is a lot of overlap among the three) agree with the Historicist on several points, the chief ones being there is only one ecclesia, Israel is not relevant to Christian eschatology, and the rapture is not separated from the "Second Coming" or final return of Christ. For these three Jesus is now reigning over all of creation from his eternal throne in heaven and there's no need for him to leave because, being God, he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent and therefore able to rule all of creation....

Which He does...yet Satan currently s still around as you said..."only that which his Creator permits and empowers according to His will and purpose."

. from anywhere and everywhere all at once. There is no need for a physical throne or physical presence on physical earth because for Jesus the physical and spiritual are not mutually exclusive conditions. Jesus could manifest a physical present here on earth at any time he so chose and he could do so in two different places at the same time (he's not limited by earthly physics). The world has already been judged and when we speak of "judgment day" what we more accurately mean is "sentencing day.

I agree with a future sentencing day.

Everyone's words and their conduct is examined (which could take an instant given the divine ability to show us our entire life measured by His righteousness in less time than it takes to snap His fingers) but for God the facts, the evidence, the proof is all already known. It's all already been judged and the verdict has already been rendered. Those in Christ - those already known to be in Christ - are separated from those who've failed to believe in God's Son. The former receive eternal life, the latter receive eternal rotting destruction......

The non-believers will be judged and sentenced at the Great White Throne while the believers will be judged at the Bema Seat of Christ.
The Bema Seat isn't a judgement concerning salvation but rather rewards.

without the need for Jesus to move his throne to earth or live there for a fixed period of time only to end up with a rebellion on his hands. The chief distinction among these three end-time views is that the gospel, through the will of God and empowerment by the Holy Spirit progresses over the course of human history to become the predominant point of view, BUT the amil holds this is mostly linear; the progress occurs gradually over time during a "millennium" that is not limited to a fixed number of years. The other two agree, but the postmil believes the gospel will one day be so successful that a world governed by the gospel is realized among the majority of the world and it is a glorious time of peace and prosperity. The Reconstructionists imagine an actual Christian state in which the world or at least some portion of it is governed by godly men rightly applying god's laws. The idealist does not see end-times prophecies as particularly predictive, or that the relevant history is particularly linear. Cycles occur and patterns repeat themselves simply as a course of the natura unfolding of time as God has planned or willed it, and history continues that way until God decides to wrap things up. There is plenty of diversity and overlap but they all see Jesus reigning over all creation now in a kingdom that has been inaugurated but not yet fully realized, and there won't be any physical presence of Jesus again until the last day when the just recompense for sin is meted out, the heavens and the earth are renewed, and the new city of peace descends from heaven.

I see the Preterits prettymuch in the reconstruction camp where..(as you put it)... the world or at least some portion of it is governed by godly men rightly applying god's laws.
I would say this disagrees with the book of Revelation.

 

[CrowCross]

All five perspectives agree that in the end there will no longer be any night; and we will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine us; and we will reign forever and ever over a renewed earth i which the heavenly city of peace is realized here on earth.

The light seems to be associated with the city of New jerusalem and not the entire world.... 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp.

The fully full-preterist may (or may not) say this has all already happened and it's all allegorical. Any and all discussion of end times should be very short because all prophecy has been fulfilled.

The prohecy presented in Revelation and other books of the bible have not been fulfilled. A simple reading of the book of Revelation clearly shows us that.

That view is an extreme outlier that should NEVER be confused or conflated with the varying degrees (small or large) of preterism ALL FIVE of the other views have. Every time a (Dispensationalist) premillennialist rails against preterism s/he looks foolish because s/he's ignored his own preterism, however meager it may be.

Fools???? Then again a fool can read Revelation and see the four horsemen aven't come yet...the one world government, religion and economics haven't been set up on the world as yet. (Rev 13)
The Mt of Olives hasn't been split yet. Zech 14:4. These events and others haven't hapend yet whether tey be literal historical events or allegorical.

If Jesus is the Messiah, then all the messianic prophecies of old have been fulfilled. That is preterist. To be a Christian is to be partially preterist. The degree to which other prophecies pertaining to end times are fulfilled varies even among premillennialists. Dispensational Premillennialist John MacArthur, for example, along with many others, believes the first three or four chapters of Revelation pertain to the first century. All of that content is already fulfilled. He and those like him are that much partially preterist, eschatologically.

It should be noted that after Rev 4 and 5 the Church is no longer mentioned....the reason is they are not present during the 7 year tribulation.
However, There will be people who become belivers during that time period.

This op asserts a move of the throne. The throne of judgment is an actual throne or at least a geographically localized throne of some kind of fixed physicality (notice the opening post does not define the term) that can and will be moved from one place to another. The judgment seat is not on earth, but it will be moved to earth. Before it moves from heaven, though, it will first be moved to "the air." Apparently, the seat leaves heaven, stops in the air for a while, and then moves again to Jerusalem. It is a particularly curious point of view, something unique to Dispensationalism (Historicism rejects that premise wholesale), odd because scripture repeatedly tells us,




But, apparently, there is a throne, a physical chair, within the throne one which Jesu sits and he's going to move that seat from the throne of heaven to the footstool of earth .

Why?

Well... I do not see anything in the op explaining the reason for the move. The throne is not defined, reasoning for its limited existence (both geographically and temporally) is absent, and there's no explanation for the two moves. ALL of this occurs in the larger context the world and all its constituents (including Satan and the other devils) have all already been judged... and the verdict rendered.

Christ "throne" is currently in the realm caled heaven...and heaven will be brought to earth.

(apologies for the length, but some of this stuff, including weakness in the op, needed to be summarized in hopes they will be addressed)
.

 

[Ghada]

Let's not forget: this op is about the premise the judgment seat comes to earth.

To first judge the wheat and the tares from the air.

and they should not be confused or conflated with the judgment of the last day.

The judgment of the great day of the Lord's coming again, is not the judgement of the last day from the GWT.

There will be at least a thousand year separation.

then all the OT prophecies about the judgment of the world have been fulfilled

Acts 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Not as of Acts 17.

Rom 3:6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

Nor as of Rom 3.

1Co 6:2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Nor as of 1 Cor 6

That day of judging the world will be when the Lord comes again into the air, with every eye seeing and wailing because of His coming judgmement with His resurrected saints.

Knowing doctrine and prophecy of Scripture is mostly just beleiving the words written in His Book. With a little bit of sense enough to comprehend all the Scriptures taken together:

1Co 6:3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Jde 1:6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Nor as of Jude 6.

That great day will be the Lord's return in the air with every eye seeing Him. At least it will be great for them looking for Him.

John 16:7-11
But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

The argument is about Jesus Christ coming again a second time to earth, not about the Spirit poured out upon all flesh at Pentecost day after His resurrection.

Heb{9:27} And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: {9:28} So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

As of Heb 9, He has not come again to earth.

2Pe 1:16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Nor as of 2 Peter.

John 3:18-19 NIV
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Nor is the argument about the Lord's first coming and manner to earth.

Jesus is stated to come to earth in Revelation chapters 21-22, not 19-20.

Nor is the argument about the Lord coming down to the new earth. It's about Him coming again a second time to this earth.

 

[Ghada]

Furthermore, nowhere in Revelation 19 (or 20) does the text actually state Jesus is physically on earth.

True. Nor anywhere in Is 53 says the Messiah would come in the flesh.

That's why all prophecy of Scripture must be read to teach prophecy of Scripture. We know by all prophecy, that the Christ must come in the flesh to suffer unto death.

So it is with His second coming to not suffer, but to judge and govern righteously over all nations upon the earth:

Psa 67:4O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

Job 19:25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

He will also stand upon the earth to be seen with resurrected Job's own eyes.

a throne NOT stated to be on earth in 19 or 20.

True. Nor was He stated to come in the flesh in any of the OT prophecies of His first coming to earth.

But, all prophecies taken together prove it. The first time as the servant in the flesh, and the second time as the Lord from the air.

The judgment and war of Rev. 19 occurring on earth and in the heavens are commanded from heaven, not earth.

According to someone's erroneous rule of interpreting prophecy of Scripture, this prophecy of the Lord commanding from heaven fail at His return fails. There is no Scripture in Rev 19 saying where He governs from. Nor is there in any other prophecy of His coming to judge and govern upon the earth.

But of course, we do have Scripture saying He comes from heaven, nor remains in heaven:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 1:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

And just simple sense alone shows the Lord cannot come again to earth, and remain in heaven. (Unless it's some mysterious phantom trick)

His earthly presence in a physical chair "judgment seat" is non-existent in Revelation 19 (the text to which the op referred for support).

The white horse of Rev 19 is either literally His judgment seat as many victorious generals have done, or is representative of the white judgment seat moving apart from the great white throne in heaven, down to earth.

Many Christians are looking for a world judgment that has already happened.

Someone needs to tell the evil-doers on earth. Especially the ruling evil-doers. They don't know it.

Not much of a judgment, if there's no execution of judgment. Sounds more like a spiritualized play-pretend judgment.

 

[Josheb]

I agree.

I agree...18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

This happens during te 1,000 year reign of Christ. Satan is let loose at the end of the 1,000 years.

Satan is already "not locked up" (your words) and permitted to do what God has him to do. You (and I) are going to have to be consistent. Revelation 20 specifies he is bound from doing one thing, and one thing only. Later, in verse 20:7 states Satan is "released from prison," that must not be read to contradict 1) Jude 1 or 2) the fact he was bound specifically "so that he could not deceive the nations," and 3) while still roaming the earth doing what it is his Creator has for him to do. If you (and I) are going to be consistent with what scripture plainly states as a whole and have consistency with what has been agreed upon between the two of us then saying Satan is "let loose" has a very specific and limited context. His being let loose does not contradict Jude 1. EVER. Neither does it EVER contradict the fact he is a created creature subject to the will and purpose of his Creator. Neither does it EVER contradict the fact he is a sinner and thereby dead in his own sin and enslaved to it. Neither does it EVER contradict the fact he has already been judged, the verdict already decided, and his fate already sealed. Neither does it EVER contradict the fact he flees from those in Christ when resisted and we can extinguish all his machinations with faith.

The words "let loose" are very limited, defined by a pile of already existing conditions.

Perhaps to show people even though satan has no influence people still sin having a sin nature.

Absolutely!

James makes this abundantly clear. He places sin squarely and solely in the lusts, choices, and actions of the individual and NOT Satan. James is the guy who unequivocally claimed the devil flees when resisted.

And all of this is very important because ANY view of the "seat of judgment" ignoring any of these scriptural facts is wrong.

Revelation presents it that way.

Yes, and not once is Jesus stated to be on earth physically during ANY of it. Premillennialism ASSUMES it but the actual text of Revelation 19 and 20 does not ever explicitly state Jesus is on earth. In point of fact all the way up to chapter 21 the entire book of Revelation never explicitly states Jesus is physically on earth but it does repeatedly explicitly place him in heaven. Premillennialism is based on inference, and inferential reading of selected verses assumed to mean Jesus is on earth even though none of the verses actually states such a thing.

This op asserts the seat of judgment moves from heaven to the air, and then from heaven to the earth. As far as the book of Revelation goes, that does not happen until chapter 21-22. The op appeals to OT verse that were fulfilled in the incarnation and era of the epistolary.

There I disagree. The tribulation or also called the time of Jacobs trouble is for bringing the Jews to Christ.

No, it's not.

Go back and re-read Jeremiah for yourself and try doing so without all the premillennial teaching you've had in your mind. If the text is read objectively, then you'll see the time of Jacob's trouble/distress is said to occur when "David their king" is raised up. In other words, that period happens when Christi raised up, not when he comes down. It happens at a time when Israel and Jacob are plundered and then their plunderers are brought to ruin and ALL of it is couched in the raising up of the King, not his coming back or down.

Furthermore, the practice of splicing two piece of scripture together without the two different texts themselves connecting one another is sloppy exegesis. When that is done to support an already-existing doctrine that's called eisegesis.

Jesus comes back twice...in the air at the resurection or rapture if you haven't died yet.

Only Dispensational Premillennialists interpret scripture that way. EVERYONE ELSE throughout the entire history of orthodox Christianity reads the whole of scripture to teach differently. I say, "Dispensational" in the broader sense of those eschatologies that separate Israel from the Church and separate the rapture from the Second Coming. Historic Premillennialists do not do that. Amils, Postmils, and Idealist do not do that. Dispensationalism was invented in the 19th century. It is NOT an eschatology that is either historical or orthodox.

Dispensationalists need to own this.

The post a position that is, eschatologically speaking, a very popular but nonetheless a minority view and one that has never been held in historical or orthodox Christian thought, doctrine, or practice. The inherent, inescapable message is, "Everybody else is all wrong but we Dispensationalist are right," this newly invented view of end times is right and everyone throughout 20 centuries of Christianity is wrong.

And, as we've just seen, it's built on things like splicing Jeremiah 30:7 into later prophecy, 1) ignoring the specific of the larger Jeremiah 30 text and 2) asserting connection not actually stated in whatever other scripture is eisegetically spliced onto Jeremiah 30:7.

The second return is on a white horse where Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives and it splits.

We're digressing. The op is about the premise the seat of judgment moves to earth.

The Bema Seat isn't a judgement concerning salvation but rather rewards.

Tell it to the op.

I disagree but that should be directed to the op, first. I disagree because a false dichotomy is created and the statement is inconsistent with the fact there are no rewards without examination (the two are not mutually exclusive of one another), and everyone gets judged, the saved and the unsaved, and that is necessarily implicit in ANY eschatology in which the wheat gets separated from the weeds. That alone is a judgment concerning salvation! Everyone goes before the bema seat.

But you bring up another point that may be worth addressing by the op. Is the "seat of judgment" to which the op is referring the same as the bema seat? Who knows! The op has not defined the seat and we should not assume we automatically know what he's talking about. The two of you may share certain beliefs in eschatology, but that doesn't mean the two of you hold identical views of the seat of judgment.

I see the Preterits pretty much in the reconstruction camp...

You are wrong to do so for the reasons I have already posted, and that particular paragraph in my previous post should be considered a "footnote," because it does not have much to do with the op. I mentioned it only as a function of a summary of the various end-times views with full-preterism as a statistical and normative outlier that should NEVER be considered representative of most (partial) preterists. As I said, every time some fool rants about preterists thinking all preterists are full preterists s/he does so proving only their ignorance. It does not matter whether they pastor multi-thousand congregant sized churches, have well-known radio shows, or are posters in an internet discussion board. Conflating full preterism with all preterism is stupid. Always has been and always will be.

EVERY Christian is preterist to some degree.

 

[Josheb]

Christ "throne" is currently in the realm caled heaven...and heaven will be brought to earth.

When specifically?

Revelation 19, Revelation 20, or Revelation 21?

Is the "throne" the same as "the seat of judgment"?

Is the "seat of judgment" an actual physical chair on which Jesus is sitting? If not, then what is that "seat"?

 

[Arial]

It should be noted that after Rev 4 and 5 the Church is no longer mentioned....the reason is they are not present during the 7 year tribulation.
However, There will be people who become belivers during that time period.

Why would it need to be mentioned? It is a letter being written to them. I am just pointing out that that reasoning is irrelevant to the message of Revelation.