The god of Calvinism's arbitrary decision.

[Carbon]

No, it is not logical.


From the very first words the opening post is fallacious. Evidence? There is no such thing as a "god of Calvinism." That's a complete falsehood. Logically, it serves as a red herring. From those words on the op is not logical. Calvinism does not teach people do not have a choice. That's a straw man. Calvinism does not teach God's decisions are arbitrary. That's another straw man. Calvinism does not teach there is no condition that sends a person to hell. That's a third straw man. The misrepresentation of Calvinism is not an accusation. It is a fact. Claiming it is an accusation is a fourth straw man.

So, no, this opening post is not logical At ALL!



If you would sincerely like to better understand Calvinism and understand it correctly so that you never again write an op with five logical fallacies in it, then I can help as long as your efforts are genuine and earnest. If, on the other hand, this is intended solely as a rag on Cals then please be forthcoming and say so. I'll know exactly how to handle the troll. You choose.




Let me also encourage and exhort you to (re-)read the forum rules before responding, especially rules 2, 6, and 7. We do things differently in CCCF.

Ill just help when it comes to the Perseverance of the Saints.

 

[Carbon]

The "Calvinist work around" for that issue that I've been given here is:

"TULIP Unconditional" isn't really "unconditional" at all, but based on God's Foreknowledge about people - i.e. He "elected" the people that would respond correctly to HIS "Calvinist regeneration" thing.

BUT HEY!!! it's only theology, after all.

If it's based on your foreknowledge then man elects himself, and when God sees that a man chose, then God chooses him as an elect. That wouldn't say much for a god. But it would teach man as sovereign.

 

[Carbon]

No, the Bible teaches that predestination is based in foreknowledge (Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 2:2).

No, actually humanism does.

 

[Carbon]

The requirement for salvation is not perfect righteousness, it is faith. That is doable for the person who is being drawn to Christ. One can be drawn to Christ and yet not be given to Christ.

Until a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom, there is no faith. You cant make yourself have faith. This is a faith from nothing, and just a wish.

 

[Carbon]

My belief is not that the person is dead to the point of not being able to be revived; but that the person is dead in sleep.

Yep. To you dead does not mean dead. It means sick, asleep ect... But not dead.

When the Holy Spirit convicts and draws a man to Christ, it is like an alarm going off.

Really? Something like an old car horn, or a bell tower?

It will wake the sinner up,

Nice. And which twisted bible did you get this from?

at least to the extent that he is able to either wake up completely or else hit the snooze button and go back to sleep.

What if they turn the volume up? Would that help?

Being drawn to Christ does not necessarily mean being given to Christ. Being drawn enables a person to receive Christ; and if they receive Christ, then they are given to Christ. Being drawn does not guarantee being given.

Some are drawn so they can look at Christ, the one on display. And appraise him to see if he is worth it?

Again, which bible are you getting your info from?

Mine reads like this.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14.

I bring to you again, Romans 10:9-13. You have to twist the passage in order to adequately come out of reading it with any Calvinistic concepts still in your thinking.

Let's have a look at it. See if your bible matches mine first, it would be good if we are both ready the same.

9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10.


Allow me to give you a couple of verses to help you out.

for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek. Romans 1:16. YLT

Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him: 1 John 5:1

Do these help?
You see my friend, the only time a man will ever confess Jesus is Lord with his mouth is if he is born again (regenerated). Through regeneration is how and when a man becomes a God seeker, not before.

Let me give you 1 John 5:1 again, in easier language, it may help.
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Hope this helps...

 

[Carbon]

So, why was Calvinism not preached before Calvin came up with the doctrine? Because if it had been preached, it would not have been identified by that name. It is named after Calvin.

I see your understanding of the Reformation is lacking also.

 

[Carbon]

I'm sorry, but that sounds pretty ignorant. Do you know what was going on in the established church (the RCC) before Luther and Calvin? Do you know what they taught? Do you know about the differences between the established church's and the Scripture's doctrines and disciplines? You may not be aware of this, but much of what you do believe comes from Luther and Calvin's (and others) influences —that are contrary to the RCC of the time.

What Calvinism and Reformed Theology posit have been things Scripture has taught from the time Scripture was written. Of course it was not called Calvinism! So what?

Amen brother

 

[Carbon]

I disagree that Calvinism teaches what scripture teaches. I believe that Calvinism is a distortion of what is taught by holy scripture; effectively another gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).

Isn't it nice you can believe what you like? No one is forcing you to believe anything?

 

[Carbon]

Can you present the Gospel and demonstrate how Calvinism differs from it?

Of course he can't. He doesn't even know what John 12:32 is teaching. And this is an easy one.

 

[Carbon]

Chuckle!!! "Calvinism" isn't a Gospel at all. It's only one man's ATTEMPT to codify God's word into a "cohesive system". it's "theology". nothing more.

It's totally WORTHLESS in terms of getting people saved - most of whom have no knowledge of it's existence, until "Bible teachers from that paradigm" start pumping it into them.

Do you play the guitar as your answer? Just curious if you put these to song.

 

[Carbon]

Most of the things you have claimed Calvinists believe are, rather, your conclusions upon what you understand them to believe. It's your wording. It may well represent what you understood them to mean, but not what they say. I have known many calvinists, and have read and/or listened to many more, and I don't hear any of them put it the way you do.

Well said.

 

[Carbon]

You appear to be telling me that in Calvinism, faith precedes grace.

That is not what I am hearing from some of you.

And thats one of your issues. You don't hear correctly when it comes to Calvinism. Oops.

 

[Carbon]

The Bible teaches us a true notion of love, in 2 Peter 3:9.

Oh, that blessed assurance. None of the elect will be lost. But once that last one is born and comes to the Lord, its a rap!

 

[Carbon]

Translation: "Salvation is merit based".

Do you agree with Rome Bob?

 

[Carbon]

I have presented no straw man arguments in all of the time that I have been here.

So far just about all your arguments are. Oops.

You may not believe the things that I am refuting; and if that be the case, then my contentions are not addressed to you, but to those who believe in Calvinism.

You are not refuting anything as of yet. But keep trying.

 

[Carbon]

You've offered no "substance", so we're done here.

Bob, one day you will become a Calvinist I bet. I can't wait to see you then.

 

[justbyfaith]

God chose the bride of Christ. God has His reasons for picking who He did because it was according to His good will and pleasure. And He sends no one to hell against their will. Don't know where you got that from

Huh?
The gospel gores out into the whole world, who says they don't have a choice? Surely not a Calvinist.

Yes. According to God's choice. It's by grace, that He decided to have mercy on some.

They go to hell because they deny the Christ. And this is by their free choice.

See above.

Well, you are misrepresenting. You should let a Calvinist speak for Calvinism, and actually listen and consider.

No, it's not.

You misrepsent.

You are off, by a long shot. My advice? Ask a Calvinist.

Is the salvation of a man dependent on his choice to receive or reject Christ? (I am asking you, a Calvinist).

If not, my next question is, can a person make a choice to receive Christ and yet not be accepted for that he is of the non-elect?

And, if a person does not make a choice to receive Christ, might he be saved anyway for that he is of the elect?

If the answer to either of these questions is yes, then man does not have a choice in the matter of whether or not he is saved.

If the answer to them is yes, then salvation is dependent on the choice of a man to receive or reject Christ; and therefore there is something that we do in order to procure salvation; and the salvation of a man is dependent on his choice to receive or reject Christ. So, if the answer to the first question was no, you should probably reconsider.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, actually humanism does.

Nope, the Bible teaches it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Until a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom, there is no faith. You cant make yourself have faith. This is a faith from nothing, and just a wish.

If I want to cultivate faith, I can do that by exposing myself to the word of God (Romans 10:17).

 

[justbyfaith]

Yep. To you dead does not mean dead. It means sick, asleep ect... But not dead.

It means dead. However, the Holy Spirit is able to bring a person to being half-alive.

Really? Something like an old car horn, or a bell tower?

Nice. And which twisted bible did you get this from?

No twisted Bible; but if you are looking for chapter and verse, it is Ephesians 5:14.

What if they turn the volume up? Would that help?

Some are drawn so they can look at Christ, the one on display. And appraise him to see if he is worth it?

They are enabled to receive Christ at being drawn; which does not guarantee being given.

Again, which bible are you getting your info from?

Mine reads like this.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14.

A man is enabled to receive Christ when the Holy Spirit draws him. The inability of the natural man is thus overcome by this.

Let's have a look at it. See if your bible matches mine first, it would be good if we are both ready the same.

9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10.


Allow me to give you a couple of verses to help you out.

for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek. Romans 1:16. YLT

Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him: 1 John 5:1

Do these help?
You see my friend, the only time a man will ever confess Jesus is Lord with his mouth is if he is born again (regenerated). Through regeneration is how and when a man becomes a God seeker, not before.

Let me give you 1 John 5:1 again, in easier language, it may help.
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Hope this helps...

regeneration does not come before faith; for we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2); and we are regenerated because of grace (Titus 3:5-7).

As for 1 John 5:1, it says,

1Jo 5:1, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

This does not deny the reality that a person becomes born of God through faith in Jesus Christ; and that therefore faith precedes regeneration.