The god of Calvinism's arbitrary decision.

[justbyfaith]

It was not out of context. I told you what it was----the NT revealing something that was in the OT. Try listening.

Jesus is not Israel.

 

[justbyfaith]

makesends said:
God is not to be blamed —he is to be credited, for "the condemnation of the sinner to eternal flames."

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
The question is not whether he desires it or not, but whether it will glorify him.

By the way, the one death is not like the other. In Eze 18:23, he is referring to the common, the temporal, death —not the death of the Lake of Fire. And no, I am not saying that he delights in anyone dying the second death, but that he is glorified by it, according to Romans 9.

It does not glorify Him if He created people with the destiny of being fried for ever. Such a thing testifies that He is not a God of love.

A God of love would give people an opportunity to receive Him in which they become able to receive Him; and would be glorified in sending them to hell if they rejected that as a free offer (in which they were enabled to receive it).

[edited by mod]]

[edited by mod]

[edited by mod.]

For I will say that a person becomes of the elect the moment they receive the true and living God.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is not an insult to try and make someone aware of the fact that they do not have the knowledge they need to say the things they are saying. It should encourage you to obtain the knowledge you need on whatever it is you are talking about. You have illustrated, even said, that your portrayal of Calvinism is based on an emotional reaction. What you say Calvinism is shows that you do not know what it really is---it is the Calvinist that know that. Those who have studied it, and understand it----who never think they know or understand it all but learn continuously from the scriptures themselves. Instead you tell them no, what they say about Calvinism is not right---what you say about it is. You offer what you feel about Calvinism, what you think it is, and say then that is what it is.

As to hermeneutics you illustrated that you have only the vaguest notion of its parts or how to use them. You even are shaky on what context is. But hey---we all start that way. It is not a crime and it is not an insult, and it is not a comment on one's intelligence. Here's a tip though. We learn by listening and hearing. and paying attention.

I do believe that many Calvinists understand Calvinism as a doctrine without understanding its implications; which I have declared in this thread.

For example, Calvinists want to deny that God's decision to cast people into the lake of fire is arbitrary in their theology...however it is clearly arbitrary. But Calvinists deny that because it makes their doctrine look ugly...it exacerbates the symptoms, it shows the problems that underly their doctrine.

Calvinism has its strength in that it teaches that our salvation is nothing of man. If it were true, it would be commendable to teach such a doctrine.

But the reality is that we do something to obtain eternal life (Romans 10:9-13, Acts 2:38-39).

As commendable as it is to say that salvation is all of God and not of us, the fact remains that it is an unbiblical doctrine.

For example, the scripture says,

Act 2:40, And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

This scripture teaches us that we are to save ourselves.

 

[justbyfaith]

Don't confuse application with meaning. The meaning of a scripture comes first, and then it can be properly applied. A scripture always only has one meaning and that meaning is what God meant as the author behind the author. People wrongly apply scriptures all the time because they have not ascertained its correct meaning.

If the one quoting it has read it in its context, they understand the meaning in its context.

So, the only way they are going to give you a meaning that is not accurate is if they are attempting to deceive.

So, I say to you, if you think that I have taken a scripture out of context, read the context again (understanding that the context is not only found in the immediate vicinity of the verse but that there is also a topical context).

Understanding the Bible is something that happens over years and even decades of study.

Therefore, it is not wise to discount an interpretation, saying that it is taken out of context, until you understand all of its context (including the topical context).

Someone lambasted me by saying that they think I have no understanding of hermeneutics. Yet, I gave an accurate understanding of hermeneutics just previous to that and will continue to give an accurate understanding of the science.

I will say that if someone has interpolated a doctrine out of some scripture that it is very likely not taken out of context. For they came to that understanding, not by playing Bible roullette, but by reading it in its context.

I therefore believe strongly that those who cry that a scripture has been taken out of context, do so because they do not like the application or meaning of the verse as it has been presented to them. They have itching ears and want some other teacher to tell them something different. In this way they are attempting to disregard the conviction of the Holy Ghost and desire to believe according to their own idea.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am going to bow out of this conversation after leaving a final word.

That word is, it should be clear that we do something in order to obtain salvation.

Hos 14:2, Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

I would suggest that I am aware of certain Calvinists who deflect the question when I ask them whether they have done what is required to obtain salvation in the above verses. [ edited.]

[edited by mod]

I have testified here what it will take for them to actually be saved and born again of the Holy Spirit.

[edited by mod]

But, that's the way the cookie crumbles. [edited by mod.]

[edited by mod]

 

[justbyfaith]

Also as a last word, I will say that I have absolute assurance of my salvation (1 Thessalonians 1:5, 1 Thessalonians 5:8, Ephesians 6:17) because I have done what is required for salvation according to the scriptures.

If I believed in Calvinism, I would not have such an assurance.

I would always wonder if my choice to receive, believe in, and follow Christ did not actually save me for that I was of the non-elect and therefore my choice to receive salvation would have availed for me nothing.

For that is the reality of Calvinism...salvation is not based on our choice to receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour...but rather you are saved or damned through God's sovereign choice to either save or damn you...regardless of whether or not you choose to receive, believe in, and follow Christ.

Thus a man might be saved who never received Jesus as Lord and Saviour...and a man might be damned who believed in Him unto entire sanctification.

That is not the biblical teaching.

 

[makesends]

It does not glorify Him if He created people with the destiny of being fried for ever. Such a thing testifies that He is not a God of love.

A God of love would give people an opportunity to receive Him in which they become able to receive Him; and would be glorified in sending them to hell if they rejected that as a free offer (in which they were enabled to receive it).

But if they have no choice in the matter, you are speaking of a cosmic monster who created sentient beings with the express purpose of causing them eternal torments through no fault of their own.

Because, the reason why they enter into eternal torments is because He didn't choose them.

Let me just say that I have received a word from the Lord that your belief in such a monstrous god makes you of the non-elect.

If you should cease to believe in such a god; and begin to believe in God as He really is (as He is defined in 1 John 4:8,16, 2 Peter 3:9), then you may be transferred from the kingdom of the non-elect to the kingdom of the elect.

For I will say that a person becomes of the elect the moment they receive the true and living God.

You shouldn't build doctrine on your notions of love.

 

[justbyfaith]

You shouldn't build doctrine on your notions of love.

I believe that I should build my doctrine on my notions of love...because they are accurate to what is taught by holy scripture.

As a matter of fact, I don't think that I would have any notions of love if it were not for the existence of holy scripture...and neither would you or anyone else.

 

[makesends]

I believe that I should build my doctrine on my notions of love...because they are accurate to what is taught by holy scripture.

As a matter of fact, I don't think that I would have any notions of love if it were not for the existence of holy scripture...and neither would you or anyone else.

Scripture is reliable. Our notions of love are not.

 

[justbyfaith]

Scripture is reliable. Our notions of love are not.

Our notions of love are reliable if they are based in scripture.

2Pe 3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Here, the "any" and "all" is not referring merely to believers but to any and all that need to come to repentance and who might perish if they don't repent.

 

[Arial]

If the one quoting it has read it in its context, they understand the meaning in its context.

So, the only way they are going to give you a meaning that is not accurate is if they are attempting to deceive.

The way in which we give a meaning that is not accurate is if we have not correctly understood the meaning. When we quote a scripture to prove a point, we have our interpretation of its meaning in mind and use it that way, when if it is weighed against other teaching of the Bible on the same subject, and particularly when measured against who God says He is, it will be found to successfully be shown to not mean what the person claims it does at all, and could not, as it would contradict other truths that are made very clear.

An example of that would be the scriptures that are used to prove that we can choose Christ of our own free will. Those that speak of believing, repenting etc. and a concept of choosing is added to the meaning, as though that word were actually there, when it is not there. In order to appear to make that stand, the meaning of those things that say, no one can see let alone inherit the kingdom without an act of God in a person and that this act is not a result of human will, are then altered as to their clear meaning to fit the heresy.

That is confirmation bias. We take our beliefs into the scripture and then make the scriptures agree with out beliefs. In doing that we become subject to not learning what any given scripture means.

 

[Arial]

So, I say to you, if you think that I have taken a scripture out of context, read the context again (understanding that the context is not only found in the immediate vicinity of the verse but that there is also a topical context).

Context is more than the surrounding scriptures and the topical context. It ultimately includes the whole counsel of God, and especially what He says about Himself, the culture at the time of the writing, who is writing, who they are writing too, why they are saying what they say, what issues are being addressed, its historical context, etc. The Bible is one story with many moving parts.

 

[makesends]

Our notions of love are reliable if they are based in scripture.

2Pe 3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Here, the "any" and "all" is not referring merely to believers but to any and all that need to come to repentance and who might perish if they don't repent.

Or so you say. But how does that define love for you? Is that all there is to love?

You have extrapolated "love" to mean that God would not disrespect free will, I think. That isn't love. That is self-determination of the creature.

If the one quoting it has read it in its context, they understand the meaning in its context.

So, the only way they are going to give you a meaning that is not accurate is if they are attempting to deceive.

That's some really lousy logic on its face. We all see daily here people who read long passages of context, and are very familiar with the Bible who come up with meaning that are mutually exclusive with meaning others come up with who also read in context. Not only that, even those who agree NEVER know the full meaning that God knows, by what he wrote.

 

[Mr GLee]

Some have contended that the decision of the god of Calvinism to send certain people to hell isn't arbitrary. I give them the opportunity here to back up their statements.

Since those who go to hell, in Calvinism, don't have a choice in the matter, how is God's decision to cast them into hell not arbitrary.

Since it is God who abides in us working to both (the key) reveal the truth of his will as it is written.and empower dying mankind to perform it to his good pleasure

Philipian 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Some like Jonas murmured wanting to die . What about me and my feelings?????? like Jonah.thrown over board, swallowed by a whale, suffer the pangs of hell called out and was strengthened by the father, was vomited out on dry land, dragged across the thorns all the way .

How does our father work in you ?.do you perform his will with delight or harden your heart ?

Job 23 given words from our Holy Father inform us in efect. . it is the water of God's water of the word..Deuteronomy 32 doctrines that fall from above like rain that makes our hard hearts soft

Deuteronomy 32King James Version32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Job 23 begins with the kind of food the disciples knew not of, hearing the will of the father who enables the Son of man Jesus to do will to the father good pleasure They thought is was necessary food hamburger with fries for there dying bodies.

Beautiful gospel parable.

Job 23: 12-16 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

I am hoping he makes your soft.

 

[Arial]

Therefore, it is not wise to discount an interpretation, saying that it is taken out of context, until you understand all of its context (including the topical context).

I never have without also showing how it was out of context. Something you ignore as though I had not done so.

Understanding the Bible is something that happens over years and even decades of study.

Therefore, it is not wise to discount an interpretation, saying that it is taken out of context, until you understand all of its context (including the topical context).

Of course it does. And no one ever has gotten everything right, or uncovered everything that is there. But one should pay attention when something is shown to be out of context, and how the misunderstanding of the scripture was arrived at because of it. They can dispute it, not believe it, but it should then be countered showing where it is wrong by supplying their view of the context. Hearing another's view of the context and how that changes the meaning, should be a learning tool in our quest to understand the Bible.

I therefore believe strongly that those who cry that a scripture has been taken out of context, do so because they do not like the application or meaning of the verse as it has been presented to them. They have itching ears and want some other teacher to tell them something different. In this way they are attempting to disregard the conviction of the Holy Ghost and desire to believe according to their own idea.

That is a belief that is entirely self serving and for which you have no support, and should not be said.

 

[Arial]

I do believe that many Calvinists understand Calvinism as a doctrine without understanding its implications; which I have declared in this thread.

For example, Calvinists want to deny that God's decision to cast people into the lake of fire is arbitrary in their theology...however it is clearly arbitrary. But Calvinists deny that because it makes their doctrine look ugly...it exacerbates the symptoms, it shows the problems that underly their doctrine.

What has happened, and no doubt was the entire intent of the OP is that you are going to stand by your view of the doctrines, tell Calvinists that their view is the wrong view and yours is the right view, no matter what they say. You simply tell them they do not understand their own doctrine, you are the one who understands it. You count their explanation as nothing more than trying to take away the ugliness you see---but they do not. They are looking at God, you are looking at man, and think God must be defended by man. What is it that you cannot understand about your use of arbitrary, when no such thing is possible with God? Something Calvinism knows full well.

So that takes me back to a question I asked quite a while back and was never answered.

If you see God as unfair and evil if He chooses who to bring into His household, His kingdom, and does not choose everyone. If you see that as unfair and God must never be unfair; what do you have to say about the things He did and sent Israel to do to the nations around them?

 

[atpollard]

Jesus is not Israel.

Sort of YES and NO ...

[John 15:1 NASB20] "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser."

In Scripture, what is the "vine"?
What, then, would the "true vine" be?

 

[atpollard]

Our notions of love are reliable if they are based in scripture.

2Pe 3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Here, the "any" and "all" is not referring merely to believers but to any and all that need to come to repentance and who might perish if they don't repent.

2 Peter 3

1 Beloved, this is now the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of a reminder,​

2 to remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.​

​

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.​

​

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.​

​

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered.​

​

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.​

​

14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unscrupulous people and lose your own firm commitment, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.​

A contrast of "beloved you" and "them mockers" throughout the letter - each with a different and distinct destiny. So looking at the "any" that God does not wish to perish and the "all" that God is delaying judgement to provide time for them to "come to repentance", do you seriously believe that Peter is speaking of "them mockers" that are following their own lusts and distorting scripture to their destruction? All without exception?

 

[fastfredy0]

Scripture is reliable. Our notions of love are not.

Agreed ... this is my understanding of a definition of God's love:
God’s love is an passionless, immutable, holy (separated from evil, ethical Habakkuk 1:13b You cannot look on wickedness with favor, 1 Corinthians 13:6 Love rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth) disposition to favor (goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight,) according to the ethical loveliness and divine likeness of the object which is a bond of unity – Colossians 3:14 for everything is bound together in agreement when each one seeks the best for others); God himself and those “in Christ” being bonded in agreement. (“the “love of complacency” of God which is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:39) mark a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love). God shows, to a lesser degree than the elect, the love of benevolence to all creatures.

... I grant that the definition if from my POV and God's POV probably differs (giggle)

 

[justbyfaith]

2 Peter 3

1 Beloved, this is now the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of a reminder,​

2 to remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.​

​

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.​

​

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.​

​

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered.​

​

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.​

​

14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unscrupulous people and lose your own firm commitment, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.​

A contrast of "beloved you" and "them mockers" throughout the letter - each with a different and distinct destiny. So looking at the "any" that God does not wish to perish and the "all" that God is delaying judgement to provide time for them to "come to repentance", do you seriously believe that Peter is speaking of "them mockers" that are following their own lusts and distorting scripture to their destruction? All without exception?

Is it even speaking of believers? Do believers need repentance? of course mockers need repentance!