The god of Calvinism's arbitrary decision.

[justbyfaith]

https://fb.watch/nuMdmSPC1o/

 

[justbyfaith]

Rom 1:18, For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

 

[justbyfaith]

Today, if you will hear Hid voice, do not harden your heart as in the provocation (Hebrews 3:7-8, 3:15, 4:7).

 

[justbyfaith]

Heb 3:7, Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb 3:15, While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb 4:7, Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

 

[atpollard]

Heb 3:7, Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb 3:15, While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb 4:7, Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

if ye will hear his voice ...

[John 3:18-20 NKJV]

18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.​

Those not drawn [John 6:44], those still dead in their sin [Ephesians 2:1-3], those whose heart is still made of stone [Ezekiel 36:26], ALL who are under sin [Romans 3:9] will not hear his voice ...

• John 10:25-26 [NKJV] Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you."

if ye will hear his voice ...

[John 3:18-21 NKJV]

18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."​

Those drawn [John 6:44], those made alive [Ephesians 2:4-5], those whose new heart is now made of flesh [Ezekiel 36:26], ALL to whom the Lord will show mercy [Romans 9:15-16] will hear his voice ...

• John 10:27-30 [NKJV] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of My Father's hand. 30 "I and [My] Father are one."

IF ...

 

[justbyfaith]

Those who do not believe are condemned already (even though from the perspective of eternity, they may believe in the future and are therefore of the elect)...

Yes, I am preaching about those who are of the elect, who are nevertheless condemned.

 

[justbyfaith]

And again I say, that those who are drawn are enabled to receive, believe in, and follow Christ; however this does not guarantee that they will receive, believe in, and follow Christ.

Those who receive, believe in, and follow Christ are given to Christ.

Not all who are drawn are necessarily given.

Because all are drawn (John 12:32).

And therefore if all who are drawn are also given, it would be true that all are given; and the doctrine you are preaching is therefore Universalism (heresy);

when you say that being drawn guarantees salvation.

It does not guarantee it...

It only enables the possibility of it.

 

[atpollard]

Because all are drawn (John 12:32).

"all without distinction" not "all without exception"

• [John 12:32 NASB20] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [people] to Myself."
• [Revelation 5:9-10 NASB20] 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased [people] for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation. 10 You have made them [into] a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth."

Jesus Christ accomplished what He said He would do!

 

[justbyfaith]

Of course Revelation 5:9-10 speaks of those who will be saved...

While John 12:32 speaks of those who have a possibility of being saved.

 

[atpollard]

Of course Revelation 5:9-10 speaks of those who will be saved...

While John 12:32 speaks of those who have a possibility of being saved.

Your unsupported opinion devoid of exegetical proof is so noted.
Thank you for playing “is so”/“is not”.

 

[fastfredy0]

The god of Calvinism's arbitrary decision​

Premise 1: God is the Potter and we are the clay
Premise 2: God (the Potter) creates sheep to be saved and goats for hell (the elect and non-elect)
Premise 3: Arbitrary means: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance
Conclusion: Calvinism accurately portrays God as not being arbitrary in regards to who is and isn't saved; rather, we are chosen according to His plan to create sheep and goats (saved and unsaved)

 

[justbyfaith]

Your unsupported opinion devoid of exegetical proof is so noted.
Thank you for playing “is so”/“is not”.

There is also no exegetical proof of your unsupported opinion; and no exegetical proof that can adequately discount the opinion that I have set forth.

 

[justbyfaith]

The god of Calvinism's arbitrary decision​

Premise 1: God is the Potter and we are the clay
Premise 2: God (the Potter) creates sheep to be saved and goats for hell (the elect and non-elect)
Premise 3: Arbitrary means: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance
Conclusion: Calvinism accurately portrays God as not being arbitrary in regards to who is and isn't saved; rather, we are chosen according to His plan to create sheep and goats (saved and unsaved)

So, technically, what is the answer to the following question?

Supposing that someone is a goat and they come to Christ for salvation, will Christ cast them out or will He receive them according to John 6:37?

 

[fastfredy0]

Supposing that someone is a goat and they come to Christ for salvation, will Christ cast them out or will He receive them according to John 6:37?

Neither goats or sheep seek God. (Romans 3:10-14) therefore your above premise is invalid.

The Potter seeks and saved all His sheep that He created for that purpose such that none are lost. (John 6:39)

John 6:37 All that My Father gives Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, never reject anyone who follows Me] .... the verse says the cause of people coming to Christ is the Father (All the My Father gives Me). God is not affected by what we do (Job 35:7-8) and therefore the cause of our seeking God is God and not ourselves deciding to do so independently so that none can boast.

 

[atpollard]

There is also no exegetical proof of your unsupported opinion

Umm … Let’s look at that again:

"all without distinction" not "all without exception"

That was my stated premise.

• [John 12:32 NASB20] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [people] to Myself."
• [Revelation 5:9-10 NASB20] 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased [people] for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation. 10 You have made them [into] a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth."

Those were the verses of Scripture that supported my stated premise with the critical portions underlined to draw your attention to them.

Jesus Christ accomplished what He said He would do!

That was the exegesis of those verses that supported the position. In John 12:32 Jesus claimed that he would draw “all people” to himself and in Revelation 5:9-10 it records that Jesus did (will) draw all people without distinction (some from every group) to Himself.

Thus I offered a clear statement, scripture to support that statement, and exegesis of that scripture that proves the statement true.

Now let us compare that with your response:

Of course Revelation 5:9-10 speaks of those who will be saved...

While John 12:32 speaks of those who have a possibility of being saved.

There is no clear statement, support and exegesis. There is just YOU telling ME that the verses which I posted mean what you say they mean and have NOTHING to do with each other. It is pure eisegesis that the “all people” of Romans 5 are not the “all people” of John 12:32 or that the people of John 12:32 merely have the “potential of being saved”. Nowhere in John 12 will you find Jesus talking about “potential” salvation. The gospel of John is about Jesus coming to bring actual salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

You find Jesus speaking of potential salvation in John 6:44, which is in the topical context of John 12:32.

You really ought to note and realize that John 6:44 does not guarantee salvation for those who are drawn.

It does say, "and I will raise him up at the last day"; however, if that is saying that all who are drawn will be resurrected unto life (as there is also a resurrection unto damnation), it would be saying that all who are drawn are saved.

Nevertheless, that is Universalism if you apply John 12:32 correctly to the passage.

Clearly, Revelation 5:9-10 does not speak of "all people" but of some people from every people group.

While John 12:32 clearly also speaks of "all people".

My conclusion (and I am not going to change my mind; because there is nothing in holy scripture that might lead me to do so) is that not all who are drawn are necessarily given...that in order to be given to Christ one must not merely be drawn to Christ but must take the step that they are enabled to take in being drawn...

They must confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead...they must call upon the name of the Lord to be saved (Romans 10:9-13).

I will say that if you are trusting in Calvinism as some kind of way to avoid making a decision to receive, believe in, and follow Christ...if you think that you are of the elect when you have never committed your life to Christ...that you are self-deceived because believing in Jesus is the only way to salvation (John 14:6).

 

[justbyfaith]

Neither goats or sheep seek God. (Romans 3:10-14) therefore your above premise is invalid.

The Potter seeks and saved all His sheep that He created for that purpose such that none are lost. (John 6:39)

John 6:37 All that My Father gives Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, never reject anyone who follows Me] .... the verse says the cause of people coming to Christ is the Father (All the My Father gives Me). God is not affected by what we do (Job 35:7-8) and therefore the cause of our seeking God is God and not ourselves deciding to do so independently so that none can boast.

Those who are of the elect will come to God (see Psalms 27:8) because the Holy Spirit draws them (John 6:44, John 12:32).

All are drawn at some point in their lives; which does not preclude that all will come.

 

[fastfredy0]

Those who are of the elect will come to God (see Psalms 27:8) because the Holy Spirit draws them (John 6:44, John 12:32).

Agreed

All are drawn at some point in their lives; which does not preclude that all will come.

Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing (Romans 10:17)
Premise 2: Many are dead that never hear the gospel (empirical fact)
Premise 3: "ALL" as you use it means everyone without exception
Conclusion: Your statement is false

When it comes to salvation John 1:12-13 clearly states that it is by God's will that people are saved and to end any doubt it goes on to say that salvation is not by the will of man.

Premise 1: We are not saved by works
Premise 2: Work is defined as something we do to accomplish a purpose
Conclusion: We are NEVER the cause of our salvation as that would be a work

"Free Willyism" (self-determination) is a logical joke.

You can have the last word ... this is getting tedious.

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39 indicate that we do something in order to procure salvation.

Since salvation is not of works, the thing we do in order to procure it cannot be defined as a work.

John 12:32 indicates that if Jesus be lifted up from the earth, He will draw all men to Himself.

He was in fact lifted up from the earth.

This drawing does not necessarily mean that the person is faced with the light of Christ (Romans 3).

Before the light of Christ can be given, one must accept the light of creation (Romans 1) and the light of conscience (Romans 2).

People are being drawn to Christ in being shown the first two lights; although they are not faced specifically with the light of Christ and given an opportunity to receive Him.

They are given the first two lights and receiving the third light is dependent on them receiving lights #1 and #2.

Receiving lights #1 and #2 is a part of the process by which they will become able to receive light #3.

If they reject light #1 or light #2, they may never be faced with light #3; which does not mean that the Holy Spirit didn't draw them.

If they receive light #1 and #2, they will be shown light #3; and therefore lights #1 and #2 are part and parcel on the road to receive light #3.

Therefore in being given light #1 and #2, they are ultimately being drawn to Christ; and their rejection of either of those two lights might be counted as a rejection of Christ.

 

[Carbon]

Some have contended that the decision of the god of Calvinism to send certain people to hell isn't arbitrary. I give them the opportunity here to back up their statements.

God chose the bride of Christ. God has His reasons for picking who He did because it was according to His good will and pleasure. And He sends no one to hell against their will. Don't know where you got that from

Since those who go to hell, in Calvinism, don't have a choice in the matter, how is God's decision to cast them into hell not arbitrary.

Huh?
The gospel gores out into the whole world, who says they don't have a choice? Surely not a Calvinist.

Those who are elected to salvation are elected unconditionally;

Yes. According to God's choice. It's by grace, that He decided to have mercy on some.

And therefore there is also no condition (other than God's will) that sends certain people to hell.

They go to hell because they deny the Christ. And this is by their free choice.

How is that not an arbitrary decision?

See above.

I have been accused of misrepresenting Calvinsim by speaking of these things.

Well, you are misrepresenting. You should let a Calvinist speak for Calvinism, and actually listen and consider.

But is not what I am saying logical?

No, it's not.

But it is not language that the Calvinist would like to be applied to his doctrine.

Why is that?

You misrepsent.

Is it not because it is a true indictment on what is believed by the Calvinist?

You are off, by a long shot. My advice? Ask a Calvinist.